Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fabierien 08-09-05, 12:45 PM	Hello All and thank you for taking the time to help me out. I am running an Eberron Campaign and I would like to take some of the Maps and blow them up so that my players can see them better(they are currently piloting a Pinicle in the Lhlazzar Principalities). Make it easier to do time calculations with a bigger map as well, and they can write down all the towns I create for them(unlike Breland and the other central countries there is not that much out in the LP). The thing is Kinkos and the other local place that that does this type of work will not do it without a copyright signature saying they will not be sued. Can I even do this or who do I need to get in touch with so that I can do this? I would like to have it for next weeks game. THank you so much for any help you are able to give. Fabierien
ccerose 08-09-05, 01:07 PM	Are you talking about copying the maps directly from the ECS book? Or making copies of the map (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebwe/20041206a) from the d/l section? You might want to just pick up the Eberron DM screen because it comes with a large map. **Edit** I just took a look at the 11"x17" map from the download section and it clearly reads, Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc. Permission granted to photocopy for personal use only. It seems to me that that should be enough for Kinkos.
Ut-Napishtim 08-09-05, 01:08 PM	It used to say somewhere in the books that you could photocopy them for personal use. That may not be true anymore though as times have changed.
ccerose 08-09-05, 01:13 PM	I just realized that if you go to the d/l section and print out the multiple page map, when it's all pieced together the end result is a map 34"x22". I would think that should suit your needs.
Fabierien 08-09-05, 01:26 PM	In most cases you would be 100% correct but the problem that lies here is that that big map(the full thing of the multi-page one cuts off the LP when compared to what is listed in the ECS. For example the Isand of Stonespur only has its bottom half showing and the island of Farlnen is completely omited. And that happens to be where my characters are at the moment. Appreciate the help and the book states in its copyright info that you have to have official permission to reproduce anything from it, does not make the distention for commerical or private use. Fabierien
weasel fierce 08-09-05, 01:30 PM	Privately, at least back home, you can copy a certain quantity of a book for use, as long as it serves as supplemental material, rather than a replacement of the book. Im not sure if the same applies in the US, but for a corporate chain, they will propably refuse unless the page specifically states it can be copied (such as most RPG book character sheets)
AmanitaEata 08-09-05, 01:35 PM	I'm not so sure this is a good discussion to have here, as copyright discussions seem to be on the outs. I quote, from this post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6915183&postcount=12): Well, figuring that another WizO has just closed a thread noting discussion of copyright infringement, let's knock off such discussion in this thread Take that as you will. I take that as an indication that we shouldn't discuss these issues, so with that thought in mind, I'm not going to post in this thread. Good luck with your question, Fabierien.
ccerose 08-09-05, 01:56 PM	I see what you mean. It's funny now that you mention it. I had planned an encounter in the LP, and remember noticing that d/l map cut off the top and right portions from the book. As far as this discussion, I don't think we are in violation of the CoC because we are not encouraging encouraging copyright infringement, but attempting to assertain if it is okay for him to enlarge a portion of the map for personal use.
ccerose 08-09-05, 02:00 PM	Fabierien, take a look at this map. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_maps/Eberron_m9.jpg It was also in the art section. It may be a little bit small for your needs, but it would fairly easy to enlarge. If worse comes to worse, you could always draw it out yourself.
Fabierien 08-09-05, 02:11 PM	That is Awesome Cerose Exactly what I am looking for but the question still lies can I use that map to have it enlargedfor my players personal use. I would really like to add to the RP enviroment of my game by having the players able to roll out maps and stuff of the different areas they are traveling in. Not sure if it really counts for much but they are playing a Pirates Campaign where they are all about looting and plundering and I am making them keep a Captains Log on info they get. It is all going great except for the fact that I cannot get them the roll out maps. Ideally I would like to take each section of the game world(or at least the coasts) and blow it up for them. Right now I am looking at a 32"x48" of that particular picture you just showed me. I just wish that WotC would reply to that e-mail I sent last week. Fabierien
Fabierien 08-09-05, 02:13 PM	ONly thing I can say that I do not like on that small map is that there is no scale like there is in the book. That makes things easier I think, knowing the scale of their world. Fabierien
SonsOfKyuss 08-09-05, 03:49 PM	Fabierien, take a look at this map. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_maps/Eberron_m9.jpg It was also in the art section. It may be a little bit small for your needs, but it would fairly easy to enlarge. If worse comes to worse, you could always draw it out yourself. I don't see a release authorizing that map to be printed or enlarged. Without a release it is illegal to do so. Discussing and encouraging illegal activities is against the Code of Condut.
Fabierien 08-09-05, 04:14 PM	Well the answer is back from WotC and it is a big, NO! THat answering the question now moving on to my ranting as I hope to catch an eye from said WotC offical. so unless you like to see useless rants then avoid the bottom of this post. I paid my $40 for your book, I have paid $35 for each of the core books, I have paid more than my share on suppor materials for the Eberron Campaign setting, You have my money Wizards you have it. I have paid for it like a good customer and never once complained about it in the least. This is my hobby and I have always wanted to support the people making the game. That said I think this is the most absolute stupid thing you have ever done! plain and simple. I own the book, I own all the Eberron books published for D&D. I thought once I Had paid you the money that you asked I could reproduce the materials as long as I was not trying to make money. I DO NOTWANT TO MAKE MONEY! in case you missed that point earlier. I just would like to make a more immersive expierience for my players withouth have to mark up that $40 book I bought. Or maybe you are wanting me to mark it up so I will buy another and you can continue to milk a cash cow. Well just so you know now I am having second thoughts on spending $70-$100 a month on supplements, this month was the explorers handbook and Shipwrack...last month was Legendary Weapons and Five Nations.......Next month was Magic of Incarnanum at the very least........You had another another easy $700 coming from me this year(and while I know that is not alot to you it is to me) but now i am official boycotting your materials. Go back to using Moongoose Materals, I think I will. Convience all my friends that maybe you are not worth the money. I bought these books to use for my game, that I was running and now I see where it has gotten me, no where. My books, my time, my resources and all I ask is for a bigger map so that I can enjoy this game a little more. I am really sorry for ranting but this is really how I feel right now, and I doubt much beyond anything will make me feel better. While I understand WotC has to protect their artists and all, I have paid for this book and I am just upset that I am not going to be allowed to use them as I see fit. Thanks for all the great info. Fabierien
Fabierien 08-09-05, 04:16 PM	I don't see a release authorizing that map to be printed or enlarged. Without a release it is illegal to do so. well that sucks even more I think, *sigh* I was hoping to at least be able to print that and use it. though this statement: "These maps are not the final versions you'll see in the book, though enterprising DMs can personalize them for other uses more easily as a result." would make it seem as though it is cool with them for you to use that. fabierien
Slumbersigh 08-09-05, 04:16 PM	Appreciate the help and the book states in its copyright info that you have to have official permission to reproduce anything from it, does not make the distention for commerical or private use. The book can state whatever the book likes, yet the fact remains that under international copyright law, you have every right in the world to reproduce any portion of the D&D books you buy for personal use. Any portion. And you do not need Wizards of the Coast's permission to do so. This is the law, and you are protected. What the book says does not in any way, shape or form supercede copyright law. If you choose to photocopy the maps in the book, enlarge them, draw on them, make color copies and create a poster out of them, frame them, or use them as wallpaper, you are fully protected under copyright law. What you can't do is distribute them, for free or for profit. Otherwise, copying this material for your own use is legal. Fully. Any person who tells you differently simply does not know what they are talking about and should be disregarded. There are reams of information available online regarding copyright law and what it does and does not permit you to do. I suggest you visit Google and take a look.
Slumbersigh 08-09-05, 04:26 PM	Well the answer is back from WotC and it is a big, NO!If an employee of Wizards of the Coast represented to you that you did not have permission to make photocopies of images in books you legally purchased, photocopies intended for your own personal use and not for distribution (free, for profit or otherwise), said employee is woefully misinformed and should not be permitted to interact with the buying public with regard to issues more serious than, “How much do dragons rock!?” Copyright law protects your decision to photocopy said images, and even to blow said images up if you so choose. You can’t hand them out, distribute them to your players or sell them, but you most certainly can make the copies you desire. The employee in question is speaking of things he knows nothing about and ought to go back to fetching coffee for his betters, because he certainly does not understand the issue he spoke about.
Fabierien 08-09-05, 04:27 PM	Thank you slumbersigh I appreciate that info! this is the exact reply I got from WotC a few min ago: ------------------------------------------------------------ Thank you for contacting us. Unfortunately we cannot give permission to reproduce our published materials in any way. Sorry for the original lack of reply. I understand your frustration and am sorry I cannot help you further. Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Chris L. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST -------------------------------------------------------------------- This says otherwise to your claim though or at least they are not willing to give permssion and no one will actually make you the poster sized map without that permission slip. No matter how nicely I ask them or assure them it is just for my personal use, they just will not print it. So looks like the corporations wihin again. Fabierien
Fabierien 08-09-05, 04:30 PM	If an employee of Wizards of the Coast represented to you that you did not have permission to make photocopies of images in books you legally purchased, photocopies intended for your own personal use and not for distribution (free, for profit or otherwise), said employee is woefully misinformed and should not be permitted to interact with the buying public with regard to issues more serious than, “How much do dragons rock!?” Copyright law protects your decision to photocopy said images, and even to blow said images up if you so choose. You can’t hand them out, distribute them to your players or sell them, but you most certainly can make the copies you desire. The employee in question is speaking of things he knows nothing about and ought to go back to fetching coffee for his betters, because he certainly does not understand the issue he spoke about. But can I use said map in my game once I blow it up? I am only making 1 copy for myself to use as an aid for my players to help them understand where they are in the game world. Fabierien
Slumbersigh 08-09-05, 04:39 PM	But can I use said map in my game once I blow it up? I am only making 1 copy for myself to use as an aid for my players to help them understand where they are in the game world. In such a situation you would not be violating copyright law and would be operating legally, as such a use would continue to constitute a personal use. In other words: What you intend to do is legal. Just don't pass out copies of the map to your players. Despite this, Kinkos will not make these copies for you. Such chains have been successfully sued for genuine copyright violations and now have very strict policies in place regarding the copying of copyrighted material. If you wish to do this project, you will have to utilize a scanner and printer at home. In addition, it appears from the text of the employee's response that he is simply unable to grant you permission to copy said works, i.e. he is not allowed to as part of an umbrella corporate policy. This is understandable. While you are legally within your rights to enlarge a map you own, it is not surprising that a Wizards of the Coast employee would be intructed to not indicate as much, because any granting of permission (outside the realm of a business contract) could theoretically put the company's legal standing in jeopardy were they ever to pursue actual copyright violations. But the bottom line is this: It does not appear as if you intend to break the law.
Fabierien 08-09-05, 04:49 PM	I appreciate it Slumbersigh and I thank you. You are correct is saying that i do not want to break any laws, which is why I started this thread to begin with. I was very annoyed when I got said e-mail back from WotC, and while I understand it to a point and I do want to support the company and the artists I just find it annoying. You have given me much more information and understanding of the situation that I had before and I thank you for that. It is sad that I do not have the abilites to make said enlargements or prints myself. Thanks one last time. Fabierien
Gort32 08-09-05, 05:00 PM	Actually, this isn't quite as cut-and-dry as everyone's making it out to be. Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified in that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -- 1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; 2. the nature of the copyrighted work; 3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and 4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors. 1) This photocopy is not being made for educational use, however it is nonprofit, personal use. 2) It's a map. This section has little bearing on the issue. 3) It's just a map, as opposed to the entire book or even a substantial portion of it. 4) There is a minimial but nonzero impact on the market for this product if you make a copy of it. Your players can easily go and purchase the book and map the same as you did. In other words, the letter of the law would be leaning in your favor, but it's not quite as simple as some here believe. The real issue here is that an independent business, Kinkos, has a policy that requires that you get something that another independent business, Wizards, is not willing to give in writing. It's a lot easier for Kinkos to just demand that permission than it is to have a legal rep at each store. Bottom-line, you are in the right for making your photocopies, but that doesn't mean that Kinkos has to do it for you.
SonsOfKyuss 08-09-05, 05:01 PM	Sharing with players is no longer personal use. Slumbersigh, if want to help Fabierien to avoid legal trouble, please quote some U.S. copyright laws that state it is ok for him to reproduce and modify protected works. Enlarging a map so you can show it to your group does not qualify for "fair use".
Fabierien 08-09-05, 05:17 PM	At the rate all this is going I think I am just going to drop the Eberron Campign setting and anything officlal and make my own maps and take my game back to my world. I had just happened to really enjoy the Eberron setting and really wanted to run a game in it, but if because of certain laws and protections(that I understand and agree with almost all the time) I think that working a game in a published world is just not for me. The world is well written, interesting history, interesting things that no other world has, amazing artwork but in the end I just think that for me to do what I want to do and to play the game I want to play it is a nessity for me to walk away from Eberron. Thanks for all the great info everyone! Fabierien
Fabierien 08-09-05, 05:20 PM	Sharing with players is no longer personal use. Slumbersigh, if want to help Fabierien to avoid legal trouble, please quote some U.S. copyright laws that state it is ok for him to reproduce and modify protected works. Enlarging a map so you can show it to your group does not qualify for "fair use". Actually them tracking me down and prosecutign me is probbly next to nil. But you see that is not why I was asking I was asking so that I could protect the rights of the artist and people working on this material. I seriously enjoyed this setting, but no more. Though was disappointed with the novels a bit, blah. In the end I just wanted to enhance my game for my player and to that goal I cannot do it with Wizards products. It is sad but true statement, and I move on. Thanks for all the great advice. Fabierien
Slumbersigh 08-09-05, 05:51 PM	Enlarging a map so you can show it to your group does not qualify for "fair use". It is unfortunate that you are wrong. Have a nice day.
Slumbersigh 08-09-05, 06:11 PM	Actually them tracking me down and prosecutign me is probbly next to nil. The chances are nil not because it would be next to impossible to catch you (though this is entirely true), but more importantly because the corporate legal staff would be quick to advise that draining company resources in order to push an unwinnable legal case would be ill-advised indeed. The case would be unwinnable because you would not be breaking the law (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sup_01_17_10_1.html). SonsOfKyuss is badly informed. You are well within your legal rights under the plans you have outlined here. Just as you can make a copy of a CD you legally own and privately listen to that CD copy - whether or not you have friends present when you do so - so, too, can you make photopcopies of the map you desire to copy. You can make a copy of a DVD you legally own and watch that copy instead of your actual disc and you would be operating legally. And so too can you use a photocopy of the map in question instead of the originally purchased map.
ccerose 08-09-05, 06:23 PM	I don't see a release authorizing that map to be printed or enlarged. Without a release it is illegal to do so. Here's the link for all the maps originally posted by WoTC in the d/l section. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eb/20040611a Click to that link and it reads: Finding cinematic action is easy in the Eberron Campaign Setting. Adding maps to your campaign is fun. Why not combine the two by taking a look at the map gallery that uses maps from the action-packed Eberron Campaign Setting book? These maps are not the final versions you'll see in the book, though enterprising DMs can personalize them for other uses more easily as a result. Special thanks go to Dennis Kauth and Rob Lazzaretti for creating these maps. As a bonus, download a version of the Khorvaire continent map art (without map labels), that you can use personally to create handouts for your campaign. Click the links below to view the maps. Please note that the sizes are different than those in the final book, and that these maps are lacking place names, compass roses, keys, and so on. (Because of this, you may find them useful in other ways!) <<Followed by links to the maps>> It states to use the maps. Maybe I'm going out on a branch here, but I think that means it's okay to print them out. It also states that an enterprising DM can personalize them. It goes on to state that you can create handouts for your campaign. I very much take that as being able to use with anyone. Honestly, why would these be available for d/l if they weren't for DMs and players to use. Oh wait, they are.
ccerose 08-09-05, 06:34 PM	Sharing with players is no longer personal use. Slumbersigh, if want to help Fabierien to avoid legal trouble, please quote some U.S. copyright laws that state it is ok for him to reproduce and modify protected works. Enlarging a map so you can show it to your group does not qualify for "fair use". This is just ridiculous. There is no violation of the CoC here. I, most certainly, am not advocating illegal activity. I have to believe that the maps posted in the down load section are there for players and DMs alike for personal use. If you want to split hairs about the word personal. Would it suddenly become acceptable if each player printed out their own personal copy for their own personal use? Simply ludicrous.
GreyLord 08-09-05, 06:52 PM	Scholastically speaking, yes you probably could, as long as you credit your source. You can copy specific illustrations if either for personal use, or for use in a scholastic document if you credit it's source. You can copy up to three paragraphs of text as well, if I recall correctly. If WotC decides that they want to go to your house, and challenge that ruling, they probably will find the entirety of the collegiate, scholastic, and academic circles against them. In otherwords, if it is for personal use only, I imagine you could to a certain extent, just don't go giving to all your players...keep it for yourself to use as the DM during the sessions so they can see the map. There is NOTHING illegal about that, unless WotC wants to change the way scholastics work in the Western World (now I can't vouch for how they work in a place like the Middle East, or China, or other portions of the world, so if your from there, you might want to be careful, wouldn't want you ending up in a slave labor prison, though I do hear china is the most rampant in pirated copies of things, like up to around 90% so maybe they have even more lax laws?)
WizO_Cat 08-09-05, 07:03 PM	Ok, I'm closing the thread for the following reasons: 1) Discussion of boycott companies will always result in thread closure. It doesn't matter whether the company is WotC or any other 3rd party publisher - the thread is going to be closed. The one thing we try to do around here is to encourage visiting the RPG company of your choice and getting the product that you desire - not act as a base for boycotts. 2) Really, customer service pretty much gave you the answer that they should. Really, legally, we can give you all of the advice that can come to our minds. However, the problem is that if you follow any of it, you're going to be the person responsible for any fallout that may arise from your decision. As a point of reference, a message board isn't that great of a source for legal advice. After all, some may have good intentions, others don't - some may have a thorough grasp of the law in question, others don't. Thus, for the reason listed above, it is better that the thread is closed. I wish you the best in whatever you do in your gaming career.