Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ussutisi 07-03-05, 10:20 PM	If a king wanted to field an army of 100,000 infantry with a half-plate, heavy steel shield, 2 javalins, a longspear and shortsword, pay them as much as an untrained hireling, not play them during 6-month's training and keep them for ten years, it would cost him 9,777,000 plantinum pieces. That is 977,700 pounds of gold. Most armies are a tenth this size, costinh 977,700 plantinum. Is that not absurd? How could a king of a kingdom the size of, say, Isreal, net enough for 10,000 men? The ancient Isrealites could muster 30,000 men, with chariots! Orcs muster large armies, and have a large number of soldiers, as do many evil races such as gnolls. How could kingdoms get enough money to mass forces of this size in D&D? Tactics and stratagy is intertresting in the world of D&D, but how could anyone get an army? This was posted for purposes of discusstion. If I overlooked some important and obvous aspect of war/economy, please don't flame me or make me look stupid. I can't spell, but I'm not stupid (see sig) Edit: I said 'must' instead of 'muster'
Gedrin 07-04-05, 03:33 AM	First, 100,000 men is a really big army by most measures. Yes, some are bigger, but it's a lot of guys. Some things to consider: Many armies weren't entirely professional soldiers. Commoners/peasants were often pressed into service with little armor and only simple weapons. Often these formed a bulk of the army (fodder) while professional solders acted as the strong arm of the force. Yes, there are many notable historical exceptions, but lots of armies worked this way. Also, most armies don't pay retial for their arms and armor. Smiths and leatherworkers are frequently employed by the crown to make swords, spear tips, and armor on a constant basis. The constantly employed swordsmith made excellent wages and had a secure job. The crown got things at the cost of the smith's wage plus materials. The ability to raise an army, is different than having one waiting around. Muster times made a big difference, and a system or culture that allowed an army to rise quickly was an advantage. Armies aren't much use in calm times, so most don't want to fund or manage them. However, if you can keep a small professional force at all times, and then muster peasants and auxillaries in time of need, you're in business. Naturally, there are historical examples of professional armies that stayed active, and were kept busy, over long periods of time. Much of what it costs to maintain an army can be drawn from the land of a feudal lord. A knight may own vast tracts of land that produce grain or other foodstuffs. The knight takes the food his vasals grow, and gives it to the army as part of their maintenance. Cash wages are harder to deal with, but the knight does tax or outright own the local shops where his forces (and vasals) spend their coins. The real problem, it seems to me, is not keeping your army around your land (though that does sap resources you might wish to spend elsewhere), but in moving an army away from your resources. The further you are from your farmer peasants the more expensive (often in coin) food becomes, and the harder it is to get. It's a typical, but problematic, supply issue. Also important to consider is what your supporting government is doing that requires a military. If you've got a less agressive nation with highly secure borders, it may not need a large army at all times, particularly if it can call up a significant force easily. Muster time becomes a priority, rather than troops on the field in a time of calm. Of course, if you have an expansionist imperial government, you want trained soldiers ready to move on new territory or put down rebellious peoples. However... If you're looking to apply D&D economy to anything on a large scale, don't expect it to make sense. If you plan on adding government use of aplied magic to the equasion, prepare for everything to break down through applications such as using the Fabricate spell as a use activated item.
braindead345 07-04-05, 04:42 AM	Hopefully, you can read between the lines and get some ideas to thwart this problem. First thing to consider is your kingdom's population. If you want an army of 100,000 you need to have at least that many people in the kingdom. 800,000 minimum if you want only fit young men to fill the ranks (consider the age and gender of the population, you won't send infants to war). Recruitment can be handled two ways-drafting every able bodied person or give criminals and debtors the option of serving instead of prison (or death). The cost of maintaining the army is going to be huge. An army that size in a small geographic area (the kingdom) is going to drain food supplies real fast-especially if all the farmers are in the army and not growing food. Also, forget the idea of paying them the rate for unskilled labor. The last thing you want is a revolt by disgruntled soldiers that you armed quite well. Yes, orcs can raise vast armies, but think about why and what they do with the armies-they invade to gain food, treasure, slaves, etc. The slaves and food are the real reasons, the treasure and glory are just perks. Then the orc army disbands. In other words, if the king raises an army this large, he is going to be forced to invade the kingdom's neighbors to keep it together (on the other hand this worked pretty well for the British, Napoleon, and Gengis Kahn). Just think of reaction from the neighboring kingdoms when they hear about this army being raised. If the king doesn't want constant war, he is better off forming a militia (trained troops that can be summoned in times of crisis, but otherwise go about their civilian jobs). Another thing to consider is diversifing the troops. Archers can do some serious damage with volley fire. Catapults are not useful in the field, unless you have structures to destroy. Spellcaster can be asigned to each unit. Quartermasters will handle distribution of supplies and pay, provided they have them (rogues would love to get into that part of the army-for the obvious reasons). If you must see this out, get ahold of Bernard Cornwell's "Sharpe" series from your local library. The stories are set durring the Nepoleonic era, but they will give you some ideas for life in a huge army. I particularly recommend Sharpe's Tiger and Sharpe's Triumph.
Dartanel 07-04-05, 08:38 AM	This is also where we point out that all those sub-optimal armor choices in the book exist for a reasion. They're much cheaper and thus much more suited for equipping an army. Heavy infantry was more often equipped with chain mail rather than half-plate. Light infrantry was lucky to get leather. And wooden shields are far far more common then metal ones.
Ussutisi 07-04-05, 10:24 AM	I just got a great idea: Goblins have +2 dex, and a +2 racial bonus on Ride checks. Smart leader+Swarm of Goblins+Mounts+Mongol Tactics=Goblin Empire.:plotting: I can see it now. The evil Goblins would join the army and be paid with the loot they got. They could be lightly armed, but as this army champiagned it would get stronger, ralling goblin tribes to join it, using necromacers to raise their slain enemies and for a massive force. If they start of 10,000 paid with the loot from conquest, origanly armed with bows, wooden bucklers, and shortswords. Each soldier could simply make a buckler, and bows could be made by no-combants in the tribe. Swords could prove problematic (10,000 plantinum worth of swords). Maybe spears would be better. With steel tips. It would make an interesting game for the PCs. Trying to stop a horde of goblins that only grows stronger with time. If the army broke into groups of 200 with a captain leading each group they could overrun hundreds of villages in a week. The problem is mounts. An idea how they could get a very large number of warmounts? Wolves, Boars, Worgs (for the captains). Goblins don't like horses, but if you killed them and turned them into zombies would the goblins ride them? Would the zombie/skeleton goblins ride them? If we get one first level Goblin Wizard and one first level Goblin Fighter to lead each group of 200 first level Goblin Warriors and there are 50 of such groups we have a very dangerous force, especially if they are mostly or entirely mounted. If High(er) level Goblin Wizards/Sorcessors make Staffs/Wands of raise dead and hand them out to the wizards, they can prepare their own combat spells and have 50 raise dead spells to use. I have a number of questions however. Please forgive my ignorace. 1. Can Staffs/Wands be recharged? 2. Would non-goblin evil races join the horde? If so which ones? 3. What is the Warrior per captia of the average human/elf/dwarf/whatever village? 4. Are walled cities common? 5. Would the sheer number of Goblins increase their bravery (which is low)?
the artful dodger 07-04-05, 10:39 AM	Most protracted wars lead the countries that wage them to virtual bankrupcy. That's nothing new. I don't see why any country would keep an army that size for 10 years, if not for waging war. The cost for waging that war (including the upkeep of the army) is supposed to come mainly from two things: taxes and the spoils of victory. Conquered lands are plundered. If you don't conquer anything, you'll inevitably lose in the end.
Gagnrath 07-04-05, 02:22 PM	Costs..... half plate...... Not freaking likely.... breast plates in a very well organized army typically... ala the roman army. Kingdom is going to buy them at or just above build price; so Figure half price, for breatplates this is 25.... so thats 2,500,000 gp. Once again you are arming your army like the greeks or romans so we'll point out that those were wooden shields half price 4 gp so 400,000 new total 2,900,000. Sword short, 5 gp army cost.... 3,400,000 long spear 3 gp (we're actually rounding up rather than going to silver here costing us quite a bit of cash) 3,700,000, javelins.... 200,000 of them at 5 silver each equal 100,000 total = 3,800,000 for arming multiply that by 1.25 for upkeep and replacement arms over 10 years..... 4,750,000 gp. Meals cost 1sp per day per person kingdom is probably getting these near cost of 5 copper but we'll say 7 because we're feeling generous. 7x 100,000 = 700,000 x 10 = 7 million x 365 2,555,000,000 cp divided by 100 = 2,555,000 gp for 10 years of food for 100,000 soldiers total cost now 7,305,000. Wages... trained merc are 3 sp per day wile supplying their own food and equipment. For fairness we'll say 2 sp per day (there are more cost realistic places for this than the DMG but since thats core we'll extrapolate from there.) 2 x 100,000sp = 20,000 gp x 10 years = 200,000gp x 365 days = 7300000 in wages total now = 14,605,000 gp we'll throw in an extra 1,000,000 gp for costs of chariots, bows and arrows, tents and such replacing certain aspects of some soldiers kits. Thats 15,605,000 gp to outfit feed and pay 100,000 men over 10 years so 1,560,500 platinum pretty far off of what you figured. When you consider the standing legions under agustus of the roman empire we're only 28 so roughly 168,000 men and they had perhaps 2/3rds that number of auxillaries constantly standing. So you have an army half the size of that of Rome at it's height better equip and better paid (romans used a Hasta closer to a spear than a longspear. phylum were sort of a heavy jaevlin at first though they evolved). And we constantly highballed prices. How would barbarians like orcs raise a large force.... first off the warriors supllied their own weapons. If your a tribal people and can't in two or three years scrape together enough hides to make armour you've got a fairly hungry family. At first you are probably raiding with only your farmining implements though this changes after the first raid or two. When you cheiftan calls you to arms do you expect to get paid? No you expect plunder with the cheiftan getting a small share and perhaps some of your close buddies who watch you back and vice versa. Food? sure you grab smoked meat and tried foodstuff for a few days, after that your pillaging farms and hunting eating their food. ( the legion above will also suplement their foodstuff and decrease the quoted food prices above by foraging.) The barbarian king will put some money towards arms and an emergancy food supply though not huge amounts. For a 100,000 being army he will probably have with him 10 days of food and perhaps equipment enough for 1,000 soldiers at the offset. His ex*****es are very very minimal. A chivalric army is somewhere between the two in cost as it is highly amortized in the whole economic system and then you have people sharing the price throughout all lvl's of the army.
Ussutisi 07-04-05, 03:20 PM	It just occured to me, if you the frontire and rural areas in kingdoms have small, scattered villages, with a population of about 100 and maybe 10 1st level warriors in the militia...:plotting: A group of 4 1st level PCs, a wizard, a rogue, a fighter, and a barbarian could raid the village effectively. If they made night attacks to kill warriors and steal weapons (to use or sell) they could render the village helpless. The average man might have 20 Gold to his name, plus what he owns. 20x100=2000 Gold. If he has a cow, a pig, and four chickens thats 1006 Gold worth of animals in the village. These animals could be sold in the nearby villages. He might also have 10 gold worth of crops and other items. 4006 gold could be taken from the village. Now you could get 15 mercanaries for a week with 31.5 gold, and give them a spear, light wooden shield, and padded armor for 135. You could then openly attack and take the next village, slaughtering the people and selling everything else. If you had the mercanaries help you could sell it all in a week. You would then have 7845.5 gold. If you renewed you mercanaries for 31.5 and attacked another village, you would have 11,820. It would then be time to make a bolder move. You could spend almost all you gold to get 435 mercanies for a month. With that you could attack the nearest small city, with an gaurd force of about 100 men and a population of about 1000. There might be 45,000 gold worth of stuff in the city. Take it and kill everbody. Then move into Orc/Kobold/other weak evil race teritory and hire as many as you can, have them arm themselves. There are evil an would work fo the same price as humans, despit having to arm themselves. That would give you 5,000 for a month. Begin your conquests. I have made a dire mistake, I know it. I just don't know what it is, and there may be several. If somebody would please point it out to easy my paranoia, it would be most appreciated.
the artful dodger 07-04-05, 05:22 PM	I have made a dire mistake, I know it. I just don't know what it is, and there may be several.1) Thinking you can get away with that without a large force being sent out to hunt you down. 2) Assuming you can sell everything you loot. Just because you have a cow for sale doesn't mean someone wants to buy it. The more cows you have, the less chance you'll find a buyer for every one (and the lower the price they'll fetch). 3) Assuming you can find and hire all those mercenaries, and that they'll be willing to stick to your original terms even as 'business' is booming.
Ussutisi 07-04-05, 09:39 PM	1) Thinking you can get away with that without a large force being sent out to hunt you down. 2) Assuming you can sell everything you loot. Just because you have a cow for sale doesn't mean someone wants to buy it. The more cows you have, the less chance you'll find a buyer for every one (and the lower the price they'll fetch). 3) Assuming you can find and hire all those mercenaries, and that they'll be willing to stick to your original terms even as 'business' is booming. Solution to 1: Total slaughter. It would be hard to pull off, but if you killed everbody in a village, nobody would know what happened until you were gone. Possibly switch the barbarian Pc with a ranger to trage down fleeing villagers if they scatter. And if they scatter too much, they won't be able to survive on their own 2) Even if you were only able to sell half of the loot at half price you could still pull it off, it'd just take longer 3) If you look hard enough you can find that many. You got that much money, they'll know you must be successful. By stick with original terms, you mean they'll want higher wages? Let them have half the loot to split amongst themselves, the rest goes to the army. Let them elect captains so they'll feel like they have some say in whats happening. A good idea would be to attack city-states. A large city state similiar to Athens in the 500s BC would make and excellent target for the army once you brought it up the 10,000 men, mostly vetrans. Mostly slaves, with few well-trained warriors, and lot of loot. Instead of slaughtering everybody, you could kill the citizens and let the slaves gain freedom for helping you. Establish a monarchy similair to that of the British Empire's in the sixteenth century. In just a few months the PCs, because of their above-average abuilty to track, assasinate/steal, and cast spells have forged a small kingdom! You can't get that from crawling some dungeon! :D That can have people look at them like this: :w00t: Or like this: :surrender :bow:
the artful dodger 07-05-05, 05:10 AM	Solution to 1: Total slaughter. It would be hard to pull off, but if you killed everbody in a village, nobody would know what happened until you were gone. ... A large city state similiar to Athens in the 500s BC would make and excellent target for the army once you brought it up the 10,000 men, mostly vetrans. So you think you can have an army of 10,000 troops around and nobody would notice? Unless you're in the middle of nowhere, you'e going to be noticed. And if you are in the middle of nowhere, good luck finding 10,000 troops and after you do, feeding them. ;)
Escef 07-05-05, 05:40 AM	So you think you can have an army of 10,000 troops around and nobody would notice? Unless you're in the middle of nowhere, you'e going to be noticed. And if you are in the middle of nowhere, good luck finding 10,000 troops and after you do, feeding them. ;) Such is the beauty of the undead. Not only can such an army be raised for a pitance, it costs nothing to feed or house, they ask for no wages, their morale is unshakable, and their loyalty is nearly absolute. :evillaugh
Ussutisi 07-05-05, 12:27 PM	Evil kings might let you use there army, par se. If you can horde enough gold, you could have an army attack the city-state for you, than declare you leader for a large sum of money (as in: you take this place and make me king, I make you a very rich king). If you use the methode of freedom-for-help I proposed, you could have the slaves fight for their freedom. With a large number of poorly armed slaves you could overwelm a similiar city state as you attacked it from the outside and it's slaves rebeled inside. Then you could free the slaves from the first city and use the ones from the next to conquer another city. As for feeding these massive armies (Athens had 200,000 slaves) you could use up all the stored food in the city. It would last then atleast long enough for the plan to work. Then they could go back to farming for a living (most of them would be substane farmers until the economy improved. Once you were ready you could consider slaughtering the freedmen and raising them. You could do it on everyone (a Zombie from an old man is as strong as that of a manin his prime, correct? And a child would be like a Kobold Zombie?) If you you have an army 400,000 from the two cities, with no need to feed it. You could put the Zombies to work, mining resources to arm and armor this massive force. Think Isengard just before the War of the Ring. You could use the shelter and food (both now unnessisary) to fuel the fires needed to forge these weapons. It would be difficult to arm them, but if every piece of steel was melted down, every animal and plant burned, the the landed mined to uselessness, the force would be armed. And who could stand against an army of 400,000 well armed* Zombies. Questions: 1) Would more powerful undead join this mighty army? If so what ones? Who they try to take power from the PCs? If so, who would the lesser undead side with? 2)Are Zombies cabable of the taskes I've assume they could do (mining and forging in particular)? *Well armed compared to how they normaly are :D
Escef 07-05-05, 03:14 PM	Questions: 1) Would more powerful undead join this mighty army? If so what ones? Who they try to take power from the PCs? If so, who would the lesser undead side with? 2)Are Zombies cabable of the taskes I've assume they could do (mining and forging in particular)? 1) Intelligent undead generally make their own decisions based upon their alignments, intelligence, and personal goals. Ghouls are a tad unreliable, vampires untrust-worthy and limited to night operations, and liches have their own agendas which may or may not involve you being around to enjoy your victory. Mindless undead are loyal to whomever has the power to command them, whether that be their creator or an evil cleric rival rebuking them is not a concern. 2) Zombies (and skeletons) are capable of brute force labor, but I wouldn't trust either to run a forge. For that I recommend either intelligent undead, living craftsmen who have been coerced, or gated in help (like flamebrother salamanders).
Ussutisi 07-05-05, 04:25 PM	Flamebrothers running the forge would be perfect. I wouldn't trust anything evil that has an int over 12 and could kill me*. Might get some ideas about taking over. As for them being rebuked, how about this. Is it possible to create a one-shot use of a spell activated via telepathy? As in, stick a one-shot fireball spell in a Zombie or Skeleton's head and set it off if somebody takes control of it? That would work quite well, if it is possible. Forgive my lack of knowledge. As for the Salamanders, is there any way to get them to come without using a Gate? That costs 1000 XP and only brings one. How could you contact them and convince them to come willingly by other means? It seems like it would be very difficult to transport a number of these creatures to the Material Plane. If it is possible it would be great, but if not we'd have to settle for Ghouls. Fortunatly, they would me small in number. They would have to are all the other undead before them. If the ghouls (small in number) revolted, they would swiftly be dealt with (first 'kill' them, then burn them, then feed them to birds, then kill the birds and burn the birds. Then feed to birds to fish. No chance of them coming back.) Did I mention I'm paranoid? ;) *Other than the Salamanders. They are CR 2. You might kill some, but the number needed to run a large forge would overwelm you. But they wouldn't try, it would be suicide. Even unarmed, the 200 Salamanders (that's how many I'd like, doubt I could get that many) would be overwelmed by 400,000 Zombies and Sekeletons. Edit: Added above paragraph.