Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yergerjo 12-03-05, 10:55 AM	Now like most intelligent people, I search around for the best prices I can with things. Also like most gamers, I do feel a slight pinch from the high cost of all these books which I do buy; so I search until I can find the best price for any given book I purchase. Example: I just bought BOTH Leather PHB+DMG collectively for $85.00 with free shipping from Bamm.com, whereas both books retail for $75.00 each. We understand that WOTC is a business, and needs to make a profit, otherwise they will fade into nothing and cease to exist; how do "Smart Shoppers" like myself affect their bottom-line? Common-sense and Business School shows us that Price will be affected by their supply (print run) and demand (how many of us Player's/DM's will be buying said product) and the Cost of Production (Salary for writers, printing costs, distrobution, etc). Therefore, even though we feel there are MANY Gamers around (many of whom borrow books from kind DM's) the demand is such that they are able to charge the prices that they do in order to cover their overhead, AND they know that because we want the newest, best books with the most information WE (collectively as Gamers) will pay those prices. Retailers pay one price for their entire stock, then sell the book for the cover value (or frequently less online). This is to cover their cost (purchasing the book from WOTC, Distrobution to their stores, cost of sales <wages of the people who sell the books>) and still give them a profit. Therefore, my assertion is such that those who get the best purchase price (not cover price by far) ARE NOT cutting into WOTC's profits, but only affecting the retailers (whose own fault it is for charging so little that they have litte profit, but we love them for it). So, by buying your books at the lowest price will not help bring about that often referenced fear of 4th Edition due to WOTC not making a profit; so long as WOTC continues to produce the fine books that people want (Complete Psionic, Forgotten Realms (Novels as well), Eberron, Spell Compendium, etc) there should be no fear of them going out of business or of 4th Edition. Frankly, the best books (most demanded too) that WOTC could provide would be/are the non-setting specific books, which players and DMs of ANY setting can use and adapt with ease. A last note, I myself wouldn't complain much if WOTC decided to limit their Hardcover releases for D&D (ala d20 Modern with a few Hardcover Sourcebooks and more Softcover supplements). The Palladium Games System has thrived for over 20 years with few Hardcovers, and these are a fraction of the cost of Hardcovers too. Response?
Board_Rider 12-03-05, 11:23 AM	Honestly I don't feel that buying things on the cheap online even affect that (say, Amazon) company's bottom line. I think they sell the books based upon, as you alluded to, stock and demand. For example I have have seen a new copy of Monster Manual 3 go for $11 dollars but the DMG 2 is still $24. An online company has a tad less overhead and can sell at lower rates. Additionally you must also figure in that online stores buy in bulk which almost assuradly means that books come in under $20 per book. So the online companies price for profit but at the same time must keep it lower than "shelf" prices or noone would wait when they could simply get the book immediatly. Online stores too, as you have seen, offer things like increased savings with more products bought, free shipping, custom shopping pages and easier site navigation which also attract shoppers. In short, they are making a profit. No smart accountant is going to sale wares for their company at a loss...unless you believe Bill Gates and his XBOX problems of years gone by. As for 4th edition? I have read that there are no plans, short or long reaching in scope, for it. If what you see on Amazon is to be held true than that statement is true too because they have books projected all of the way to December. As I wrote on another post, I think that introducing a new addition now would miff many a gamer, myself included. With all of the support that 3.5 has had and continues to get I would think that introducing a new edition would be slow to get off the ground.
rbrt_Spade 12-03-05, 11:27 AM	Dont worry your not alone on the soft cover books. Im a gamer that does not have $ to be wasting on books left and right. I would love to see some books in paperback. The last hardback I got was the psi book. From then on i buy just pure paperback dnd books. In truth I think that the bindings last longer to. Im a bargin shopper on dnd products to. I strive to get the cheapest books to for my collection of dl & fr books. Well except I bought the icewindale collecters edition from waldens last night for $20 :D. They might bring back the paper backs though. That new players set that is coming out has the phb in paperback.
shadowrisae 12-03-05, 02:19 PM	I prefer D&D books to be in hard cover. I treat all of my belongings like they are fragile as glass, so I don't buy them for the reason that they can take more of a beating. Rather, I like them to be hardcover because hardcover books last longer. If and when D&D goes to 4.0, I will not upgrade. I invested too much in 3.5. But since most of my books are hardcover (yes, I do have some of the 3.0 paperback books), they will last for a really long time. As far as your comments about the cost of gaming - you shouldn't buy anything for retail nowadays. You don't NEED to. This is for not just D&D books, but really everything. There's so much competition in every market that there's always sales, markdowns, places that simply charge less, etc. And on a final note, to the original poster, I usually love the nicer versions of things. However, I refuse to buy the leather books. Even if I could get them for less than the cost of the original hardbacks. Why? 1) I already have copies, 2) I've flipped through them at the bookstore and the gold edged pages seem to stick together - I don't like that, and 3) I would be afraid to use them at the gaming table. I would not want drinks, food, etc accidentally spilled on it. If that happened with the hardcover books it doesn't seem so bad.
q'afuu 12-03-05, 02:55 PM	Therefore, my assertion is such that those who get the best purchase price (not cover price by far) ARE NOT cutting into WOTC's profits, but only affecting the retailers (whose own fault it is for charging so little that they have litte profit, but we love them for it). So, by buying your books at the lowest price will not help bring about that often referenced fear of 4th Edition due to WOTC not making a profit; so long as WOTC continues to produce the fine books that people want (Complete Psionic, Forgotten Realms (Novels as well), Eberron, Spell Compendium, etc) there should be no fear of them going out of business or of 4th Edition. *Often* referenced fear? That's not exactly true: the often referenced fear is that WotC's sales will go down dramatically. That means less copies sold, not the same or even a higher number of copies at a lower price. As you pointed out yourself, WotC's profit per copy sold is independent of the final price paid for said copy. Buying your books at the lowest price you can find doesn't affect WotC directly. It does affect WotC indirectly though, because it results in local game shops going out of business (whether because of outright bankrupcy or 'merely' because it's simply not worth it). Local game shops can't ever compete price-wise, not with the big chains and certainly not with web-based stores. The difference in overhead is simply staggering. Local game shops bring in new customers much more readily than Amazon or B&N or whoever else does though, so their disappearance affects WoTc negatively.
BrotherDog 12-03-05, 05:46 PM	As far as your comments about the cost of gaming - you shouldn't buy anything for retail nowadays. You don't NEED to. This is for not just D&D books, but really everything. There's so much competition in every market that there's always sales, markdowns, places that simply charge less, etc. ?!?!?!? :confused: I would like to live the fantasy-world you live in. That's only possible for those rich enough to have credit cards. The rest of us are not allowed such bargains. In fact Paizo is on my Poopy-list due to the fact that they wouldn't renew my subscription to Dragon without a credit card. Before that policy I had been a loyal subscriber for 5+ years. I get tired of the attitude of oligarchs like yourself!
Xeviat-DM 12-03-05, 06:10 PM	?!?!?!? :confused: I would like to live the fantasy-world you live in. That's only possible for those rich enough to have credit cards. The rest of us are not allowed such bargains. In fact Paizo is on my Poopy-list due to the fact that they wouldn't renew my subscription to Dragon without a credit card. Before that policy I had been a loyal subscriber for 5+ years. I get tired of the attitude of oligarchs like yourself! :blink: Rich enough to have a credit card? I'm a starving student who has a credit card. Almost any bank will give you an ATM card with a Visa or Mastercard logo on it, and those work as credit cards. There's no reason for you to not have something; go to Bank of America and get a student checking account. As for the topic on hand, I'd love to be elitist and shop only at the local game stores; our local store had to move down the street into another city because rent was too high and they weren't making enough money. But for me, saving 1/3rd at Amazon will get me over getting the book now, especially when there are many books I want. Recently I've been having to get them all as gifts, though, due to rent issues. Oh well; the game itself is free after the initial core rulebook purchase, it all depends on how much extra you want.
Sir Knight 12-03-05, 07:09 PM	?!?!?!? :confused: I would like to live the fantasy-world you live in. That's only possible for those rich enough to have credit cards. The rest of us are not allowed such bargains. In fact Paizo is on my Poopy-list due to the fact that they wouldn't renew my subscription to Dragon without a credit card. Before that policy I had been a loyal subscriber for 5+ years. I get tired of the attitude of oligarchs like yourself! I agree with the person who replied to this. Just because you need a VISA to purchase, doesn't mean you need a "credit card". I have a VISA check card through my bank and I stopped using checks and cash and buy almost everything online and I am not rich or elitiest. It is VERY simple to get a "credit" card to use to purchase things. I would get use to it... I don't see cash lasting much longer. :) AND, these companies (such as Paizo) wouldn't be doing it if the majority of their customer base weren't using these means to purchase from them. "Credit" cards are safer, more reliable, and just overall easier than dealing with bounced checks and the like.
Omya 12-03-05, 07:56 PM	I look at it this way: I have friends who spend £40 a pop for a crappy x-box or PS2 game and I spend the same (per month) on D&D books or dungeon/dragon mags. Guess who gets more longevity for their money? Yeah, thats right. ME. I spend £20 on a book, 3 years down the road I'm still using that book and the players are too. They spend £40 on a "game" and within a couple of months their done with it, where-as my books keep on giving. I spend a "fair amount" on D&D (and other roleplaying products) a month. Its worth it. And I dont care about 4th edition "looming" either, roll-on a time when it's more "points buy" like Mutants and Masterminds. Who cares? If you cared that much about money, you would know that it only costs about a dollar in Kenya to stop a child from dying, so hey it's all good! :)
MistWolf 12-04-05, 01:00 AM	D20 books are at least $10 overpriced- and some have poor art. However, I really like the art in the Draconimicon
smoker 12-04-05, 01:53 AM	I buy my books as cheap as possible. I pick up a lot of books each year at the auction store at GEN CON. I have been waiting to pick up 3.5 as I hope WOTC will clean up some of the errata in future printings. I hate being the early adopter. smoker
BrotherDog 12-04-05, 03:54 AM	Most of you completely missed the point. It's sad that you're so sheltered that you think it's so easy. If you've been cheated or swindled in crafty creditcard scams, then those options are not available to you. :P * Plus! What ever happened to WotC's promise of trying to keep the book prices below $19.99? :rolleyes: They seem to be failing on that promise miserably. Which just makes it that more frustrating with so many excellent books coming out. Sir Knight's suggestion that Paizo isn't in the wrong is waaaaay off base. If you treat loyal regular customers that way, you'll soon go out of business. Civic minded people will eventually catch on to such practices and no longer do business there. Even if they're well off enough to usually not care. No one should have to put up with that kind of treatment. It would be nice however if some of those places that offer those excellent discounts would accept money orders or other such payment options. But some of us just have to wait to find them in used book stores ;) ...at least. *If I ever find any those people......!!!!!! Voila! Justice!!!
yergerjo 12-04-05, 08:48 AM	Plus! What ever happened to WotC's promise of trying to keep the book prices below $19.99? Does anyone have a link to this? By "Often Referanced Fear" RE: 4th Edition I meant here on the MSG Boards. Nearly every forum has 1 post each week regarding the possibility/improbibility/near certainty of 4th Edition's release. Myself I doubt it is reasonable to assume any 4th Edition for many years if at all because it would completely jade out 99.9% of the D&D Players who had gotten on board with 3e and still made the upgrade to 3.5e. WOTC wouldn't do that because they understand that their customer-base would disolve upon the announcement and everyone would turn 100% to OGL d20 providers...(hey from that perspective maybe it would be a good idea...then player's only have to choose what they want to use and aren't forced to use all the multitude of feats/prestige classes that WOTC pumps out each month...WAIT WE ALREADY HAVE THAT OPTION!) Es Machts Nicht.
Kessalin Talira 12-04-05, 09:36 AM	There was no promise to that effect... the 3.0 books were initally released at $19.99 each, to draw in customers. Once that was done, and performed how it should have, the book prices went up. Even the Manual of the Planes was $30, and it came out in 2001. I agree that getting any product for less than MSRP is not cutting into said manufacturer's profit. The OP hit the nail on the head when he said that manufacturers sell their product at a given cost, and it's marked up from there on out. As far as shopping online goes, there are other options than a credit card, most notably PayPal. There are a multitude of online stores that take it, including Amazon, I believe. Everyone knows Ebay does, if they've ever been on Ebay, anyway. I buy about 75% of my D&D books online, at lower than cover price, and I don't use a credit card to do it. Personally, if Wizards started to release their products in softcover again, I'd be more than a little irritated. I compare my Sword and Fist to my Complete Warrior and just shake my head. Softcover books don't wear nearly as well as hardcover, as my splatbooks illustrate to me constantly. The Complete Series sees weekly use at my game table, and they don't show nearly the wear as my splatbooks did, even after having been used at least as much if not more. I realize there are those that will buy softcover books, for whatever reason, but unlike them, I won't have to worry about replacing my books nearly as often; my covers aren't going to get torn off pages won't be falling out as a result of normal usage, so I'll save money in the long run. By paying $30 now, I don't pay $20 now and $20 later when my first copy is trashed.
Bob Loblaw 12-04-05, 12:27 PM	I have had very few problems getting new books at a good price. A few things that work for me: 1) Save so that I can buy one book a month 2) Ask for the book as a gift. There is a holiday coming up that this may be appropriate for 3) Trade my older items in for store credit. I traded in over $600 of Magic cards because I no longer play. I have gotten quite a few books for this. It also helps the store because now they have a lot of older Magic cards that people are going to buy. As for not being able to get a credit card, if you don't or can't get a checking account with a Visa logo on it, I know that you can buy Visa/MasterCard/AMEX gift cards. Most of them have a $10 activation fee and then you can put up to $1000 on them. Just buy one and load it up every now and then. It is used exactly like a credit card without the added interest. As for WotC promising to try to keep the books priced under $20, I heard that before and I didn't believe there was any merit to it then and I don't believe there is any now. Even if it was a true statement, it is easy to assume that they have tried. Costs have increased across the board so they realized that they could not. They tried and failed. Promise is still kept. Problem solved.
yergerjo 12-04-05, 12:31 PM	Personally, if Wizards started to release their products in softcover again, I'd be more than a little irritated. I compare my Sword and Fist to my Complete Warrior and just shake my head. Softcover books don't wear nearly as well as hardcover, as my splatbooks illustrate to me constantly. The Complete Series sees weekly use at my game table, and they don't show nearly the wear as my splatbooks did, even after having been used at least as much if not more. I realize there are those that will buy softcover books, for whatever reason, but unlike them, I won't have to worry about replacing my books nearly as often; my covers aren't going to get torn off pages won't be falling out as a result of normal usage, so I'll save money in the long run. By paying $30 now, I don't pay $20 now and $20 later when my first copy is trashed. I agree that Hardbacks wear much better, last longer and are more durable...(Paperbacks can as well when you take extra care of them). Perhaps it could be worth it to have the hardbacks out and then perhaps a year later re-release the same book in paperback (maybe with errate added) similar to how most other books are sold. I have no idea on what the cost figures would be...only more printing costs since the ward work would be done already (writing and laying out and printing). Then everyone could be happy, cheaper but less durable books or more expensive, durable, and the first published. Perhaps this is a route they are considering with the new player's supplement (like D&D Basic) which aledgedly is containing a Trade Paperback version of the PHB; or even with the D&D for Dummies Series (Yes series. They have the sequal, Dungeonmastering for Dummies coming out next year). Possibilities...
General_Ridley 12-04-05, 03:45 PM	Oddly enough, I stopped playing Wizards of the Coast liscensed TCGs because I was spending way too much money on them. When I started getting D&D books I wasn't expecting to have the same problem. But now I spend way too much on D&D. I don't think there are enough smart shoppers to make a huge difference really.
lonebyrd 12-05-05, 09:59 AM	I'm new to these boards so I hope I'm not speaking out of line. I try and buy all my books used, Amazon.com, EBay, saves on cost and the books are in almost new condition. The prices fit my budget. I have a comic store that sells a few D+D books but no local gaming store to speak of unless I want to drive an hour away. I use a debit card I aquired through my bank or paypal on EBay. Of course there is the ever popular birthday and other holidays where books come free :) . But I don't have enough relatives for the supply and demand.
yergerjo 12-05-05, 10:27 AM	So, since the concensus is that it is ok and only reasonable to buy our books "on the cheap", Where does everyone get theirs? Ebay is a popular choice. Amazon is as well. I've found Books A Million online (Bamm.com) is very good as well, better if you have one of their discount cards, and even better if you have a retail store nearby since monthly they give a coupon for $5 off a Bamm.com purchase, free shipping over $25 like Amazon, plus they also offer a price comparison vs Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders online stores too. Any other good purchase sites?
Illion the Red 12-05-05, 10:59 AM	Sir Knight's suggestion that Paizo isn't in the wrong is waaaaay off base. If you treat loyal regular customers that way, you'll soon go out of business. Civic minded people will eventually catch on to such practices and no longer do business there. Even if they're well off enough to usually not care. No one should have to put up with that kind of treatment. Just ask Wal-Mart. Price matters. Not much else does beyond convenience. They wouldn't be the largest retailer in the world if not for their pricing. Good customer service will keep or entice customers who can afford to make the choice to pay more for the same items, but that's about it. That's the joy of living in a capitolistic society. I'm not saying that it's better than anything else, or even that it's good, but that's just how it is.
sparticus_eleisum 12-05-05, 12:35 PM	?!?!?!? :confused: I would like to live the fantasy-world you live in. That's only possible for those rich enough to have credit cards. The rest of us are not allowed such bargains. Rich?..., I do not think so, when I was young, I was intern on a valve factory, my boss was so kind he len me order stuff from Amazon using his card... So I got the PH, MM, and DMG at 64.84 (international Shipping included). Is DnD cheap? After about 10 years of gaming... $65 Core books $7 20 d6 $10 2 dice bags $2 Binder $7 Pack of plastic protectors And the office printer does the rest
Jayr 12-05-05, 06:36 PM	I live in Canada. A while ago, I went down to Indigo Books to buy the d20 Modern core rulebook. The cost: $70. The cost on amazon.ca: $38, with free shipping. This, my friends, is why bookstores suck, and I love Amazon.