Post/Author/DateTime	Post
starwars1138 02-10-05, 09:30 AM	Okay, I'm sure this is an issue near and dear to everyone's hearts. So here goes... I'm running a campaign (my first actually) and I have a co-worker who wants to play but her husband is very "anti D&D". All of his preconcieved notions are the stereotypical type. "It's all about worshipping the devil or demons." "People kill themselves over that game." "Only those weird kids played that game in school." Etc... You get the idea and I know you've all heard it before. He has no real knowledge of the game or RPGing in general. If she were to play without him it would naturally cause some friction between them (which is something I don't want to happen). So, my question is this, does anyone know of any good mainstream media articles or editorials that she can refer him to in an effort to break some of those stereotypical prejudices? I'd appreciate any websites or articles. I'll be cross posting this elsewhere to try to reach as many people as possible so sorry if you see it elsewhere. Thanks in advance! Chris
shakedown47 02-10-05, 09:39 AM	There's a pretty good U.S. News and World Report article from the mid-80's. Also, you could go find the coffee table book for him to read, it's pretty informative for those people unfamiliar with the game.
Draco Strang 02-10-05, 09:46 AM	Simply invite him to a session. Tell him, "Listen, if you see us perform any weird rituals or do anything remotely satanic, then you can pack up your wife and get the hell out of Dodge. Just come check it out man." Seriously, what better way to explain it's harmlessness than for him to actually see the game?
Thorak 02-10-05, 10:05 AM	Pick up a copy of the New Testament, and slap him in the face with it. If you want to get more specific, try just using the Gospels. Seriously, this kind of fundie anti-everything flies entirely in the face of pretty much everything Jesus said. You know, the kind of stuff like "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself", "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", the whole parable of the weeds. I could go on. These kinds of people profess to be Christian, but in fact are more contrary to the precepts of that religion than, say, Wicca is.
CzarGarrett 02-10-05, 10:14 AM	Its like fitting an elephant into a bread box. Its just not going to happen. Pretty much everyone who hates D&D and says its anti-Christian/Satanic/Evil will continue to do so, even if you play some sort of exalted monotheistic campaign. If your co-worker wants to play, she should do so.
starwars1138 02-10-05, 10:14 AM	I'd like for him to come over and watch. I think that 9 times out of 10, anyone with any interest in fantasy (which he really liked the Lord of the Rings movies) who sees the game being played, will probably want to try to play after a while. I don't think he'll do it though. He has an open invite but I don't think he'll come. I'd really like to have some good reading material to give him ahead of time though.
Mootilator 02-10-05, 12:59 PM	I don't know how much credibility NPR (Public Radio) might have with the fellow, but here are some links to some of their radio stories they did concerning D&D. D&D Turns 30 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3858560) Dungeons, Dragons and Geek Chic (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1417966) Dungeons and Dragons (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1152417) Another D&D Story (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1080565) I think that each one has not only a writeup, but an audio file as well. I liked it, but then again I'm strange. ;)
starwars1138 02-10-05, 01:43 PM	Thanks a ton Moot! I found some articles too by googling the following: evils of dugeons and dragons The first was one was a good one which eventually lead me to a Christian Gamers Guild which I hope will have some clout with him. Most of his thoughts on the game are the ones fostered by much of the church community (of which I'm a part of as well - I'm just enlightened! ).
Thorak 02-10-05, 03:24 PM	I'd like for him to come over and watch. I think that 9 times out of 10, anyone with any interest in fantasy (which he really liked the Lord of the Rings movies) who sees the game being played, will probably want to try to play after a while. I don't think he'll do it though. He has an open invite but I don't think he'll come. I'd really like to have some good reading material to give him ahead of time though. If he liked the LotR movies, just point out that D&D is loosely based on LotR. You don't actually believe you're doing anything like in that story, but pretending can be fun. D&D is essentially adult Pretend, with rules because we've gotten more devious in our "did not" "did too" arguments. If he doesn't think Gandalf was Satan incarnate, and doesn't think 3 year olds playing Pretend are at mortal risk of losing their souls, he's being awfully ridiculous to feel as he does regarding D&D. Though I stand by my earlier statement. The best single way to deal with Christian fundamentalists is to absolutely destroy their position by quoting the Bible at them. I can guarantee that anyone who is confused enough about Christianity to believe as they do will not be able to effectively argue against someone who's actually read the bible and can quote important bits. And I'm not even talking obscure stuff, I'm talking about the 4 Gospels, arguably the most important 4 chapters of the New Testament. Kind of funny how Jesus' whole point was that he was changing the till-then accepted Jewish religious rules, and yet these fundies almost exclusively cite the Old Testament, which is essentially Jewish, to support their positions. I have yet to have any of them explain why, if they're gonna cite from there, we shouldn't also be considering eating shellfish to be worse than rape or murder (it's listed there as an abomination, same level of nasty as bestiality and cannibalism). So remember; the next time someone quotes the Old Testament at you, ask them if they've ever had lobster, clams, or similar things. And if they have, point out there's a special Hell reserved for people who engage in Abominations, and he'll have a nice seat next to cannibals and animal "lovers". The spluttering as they try, and fail, to explain why we should accept some of the OT as utter hardcore fact but obviously, the bits that apply to them should be ignored should be quite amusing. And I'll note that, while I'm coming down hard on Christian fundies, this is not an attack on Christianity. Just fundie nutjobs like Chick. Fundamentalism is the issue, regardless of the faith; Islamic fundamentalism is what is fueling a lot of terrorism. I frankly see little difference, except that we're supposed to accept hate speech from the Christians for some reason.
DMMagic 02-10-05, 03:45 PM	You could have him check "Holy Lands: The Dark Ages". This thread actually inspired me to post a thread on that game here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5426806#post5426806). Check it out to learn more. Wait, is the husband even Christian? Or just weird? (Tough to tell the difference these days)
Cardinal Teplin 02-10-05, 03:50 PM	Invite him to the game, make sure you have a character available for him, even if you don't expect him to play, just in case he changes his mind. Makes sure that the plot for the evening is fairly simple, doesn't involve moral grey areas, or supernatural powers that he might be familiar with. Tone down clerics and paladins for the players - enemy cultists are fine as long as they die that session. Avoid dim lighting, or candles of any kind. Finally, make sure that anyone in the group who might be considered... ah... physically attractive, isn't sitting near the new player. Just because he's saying he's bothered on religious grounds, doesn't mean that's his real concern about his wife's new interest. Don't quote the bible at him. For a start fundamentalists revere the bible, which means they don't tend to read it that closely. Suggesting that he is in violation of his faith by not allowing his wife to play is possibly the least convincing argument on earth. It's just a game. Don't involve religion. I had someone quit one of my games after just under a year of play, having become a religious fundamentalist. He did acknowledge that he hadn't actually seen any demon worshipping going on, but he still thought the hobby was 'dangerous' to be involved in. Ultimately, don't push too hard. It's only a game. If he says no, you may still get her as a player later. If you push him hard, he'll never change his mind, and she probably won't thank you.
KnightErrantJR 02-10-05, 04:15 PM	First off, this was odd, but after years and years of not really being able to find a group but still keeping up with things, playing online, reading books, etc. I really hadn't though much about negative impressions about the game for a while. It almost seemed like either you got the game and were okay with it or you though of it as a geek obsession. Then my fiancee's friend, whom I have know for four years now, asked me what magazine I was reading, and when I told her it was Dragon magazine and what it was about she was shocked and started talking about everyone that she knew that knew someone that killed themself/joined a cult/left their wife/family becuase of the game. It amazed me that this negative feeling was still there. But it reminds me of something. Put on your 80s flashback caps and rememember, there were not just religeous persons convincing us of the evils of D&D, but also pop-psych types as well. It wasn't Christianity assaulting our hobby, but a group of well meaning but misunderstanding overprotective adults that saw a strange hobby that they didn't understand. The point I really wanted to make was that I know a lot of you are trying to be careful about say "fundamentalist" Christian, but it still makes me (someone who is really trying to be a good Catholic) uneasy becuase it does start to feel a little like drawing battle lines.
Arcane Guyver 02-10-05, 04:19 PM	I had someone quit one of my games after just under a year of play, having become a religious fundamentalist. He did acknowledge that he hadn't actually seen any demon worshipping going on, but he still thought the hobby was 'dangerous' to be involved in. This ticks me off more than anything. One of the guys in my kung fu school, one of the original students, easily one of the best in the group...quit one day, because the church he just started going to convinced him that meditation leads to demon possession (or something close to that).
starwars1138 02-10-05, 05:22 PM	Well, I prefer to fight his misconceptions in a more peaceful way I guess. While he is a southern Baptist, I think much of his skepticism comes from the general ignorance induced fear that many people have (religious or not). Frankly, I consider myself a pretty hard line Christian, but as I said above, I consider myself enlightened when it comes to the game. I sent him some links to some of the essays I mentioned above. I don't intend to try and brow beat him at all - as someone said, that would just solidify his position. If he feels that the game would undermine his faith, who am I to tell him otherwise? He has to walk his own walk and it's different for everyone. I don't plan to condemn him for his feelings on the game and I hope he'll give me the same respect. I seriously do hope he comes by and has a look. I liked the adult "pretend" comparison. Hehe, yeah, I'll say we've gotten more sophisticated in our "Did Not! Did Too!" arguments :) Thanks for the advice gang. I'll keep you posted.
Hobbygoblin 02-10-05, 07:03 PM	Best of luck:) I had to deal with my school's D&D club being shut down because one of the teachers was worried that we were doing "evil things". We had a meeting with her and a pastor(who had apparantly played some sci-fi RPG's) and worked things out. They were basically worried that we were running games which would be "PG-13" or higher if compared to a movie. (odd thing is this is at a high school) I later wrote an article for the local paper on the game.
Razoreface 02-10-05, 09:39 PM	I've got one link I like to toss around. Mike Stackpole basically a career game writer, not D&D (which makes it hard to say he's biased to say D&D is all well and good), but a ton of Star Wars novels, and he was one of FASA's big names way back. And very few people will think about Star Wars being evil and causing people to go psycho. http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/539/539635p1.html I like it cause it covers a lot of ground.. the non-evils of gaming in general, not just D&D, and he also talks about a couple of the really big "religious" anti-D&D people.
Thorak 02-10-05, 09:53 PM	The point I really wanted to make was that I know a lot of you are trying to be careful about say "fundamentalist" Christian, but it still makes me (someone who is really trying to be a good Catholic) uneasy becuase it does start to feel a little like drawing battle lines. As someone who not only freely mentioned the terms, but railed against those I applied them to, I'll respond to this. I was going to go into greater specific detail, but I changed my mind. Instead, I'll just say this; I am a Christian. I am also a historian, and I am a believer in science. None of these conflict. Nor do I believe they should. They are all aspects of the same drive, to know. They merely take different routes. When I refer to fundamentalists, I mean those who see themselves as superior to others, whether by extolling their own (IMHO, questionable) virtues, or by deriding what they see as the flaws of others. This is often combined with a questionable, if not downright flawed, interpretation of the Bible, or Koran, or whatever holy writings their faith has. I do not use the term to refer to Christians, but to a specific mindset which Christians may have, but which is also present in every other belief system, including scientific atheists. If I ever refer to fundamentalist Christians, I am not referring primarily to Christians, but to Fundamentalists who, in this specific case, happen to be Christian. Thus, the term is as independent in my mind from "Christian" as each is from, say, "Caucasian", or "Wealthy". They're characteristics that may be true, but there are plenty more people for whom they aren't, and they're in no way directly related to each other. Considering one of the prime elements in my faith is not judging others, I find fundamentalist viewpoints to be disturbing and dangerous. When I speak out so vehemently against it, it may seem like I am judging them and finding them lacking. And thus, being a hypocrite. That's not what I am doing, though. I am seeing in their actions a tendency which is antisocial and generally hostile to others. Thus, I despair and do what I can to enlighten them, so they can see the pain they are causing. My chosen method of enlightenment is the proverbial brick between the eyes, though. I don't claim it's kind or gentle, but when I've tried that kind of tack, I've been insulted more than not. I'd rather biff a couple metaphorical bricks and hope one catches them where it hurts and makes them think. It's perhaps not kind, but it's like letting your kid touch the hot pot. They learn real quick not to do it again. Much faster and more concretely than by you explaining it carefully again and again. The key difference between me and the people I rail against is that my opinions are based on their actions. While their opinions tend to be unchanging. If they changed their actions, I would change my opinion of them. If I stopped playing D&D, they would still think I was secretly a satanist, just one who's hiding it better. I fully accept that what I'm doing is sometimes harsh. Jesus was harsh at times too, though. Sometimes, the situation requires it. I'm perfectly willing to sit down and have a rational, reasoned discussion of religion, without at any point resorting to namecalling or derision. If someone isn't willing to listen though, it's brick time. I could care less if they look into what I'm saying and then choose, in their knowledge, to disagree. I just ask that they do that research and study first, because in my personal opinion, you cannot remain what I refer to as fundamentalist if you do so. Even if what you're studying is the Bible.
KnightErrantJR 02-10-05, 10:26 PM	I appreciate the well written and thought out reply, and the only thing I can say in reply is that sometimes I feel like I have to defend the middle against both sides and it makes me more defensive than I should be. Thank you.
starwars1138 02-10-05, 11:30 PM	I've got one link I like to toss around. Mike Stackpole basically a career game writer, not D&D (which makes it hard to say he's biased to say D&D is all well and good), but a ton of Star Wars novels, and he was one of FASA's big names way back. And very few people will think about Star Wars being evil and causing people to go psycho. http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/539/539635p1.html I like it cause it covers a lot of ground.. the non-evils of gaming in general, not just D&D, and he also talks about a couple of the really big "religious" anti-D&D people. Great link - it lead me off to the Pulling Report which was good reading (though a bit heavy). Many thanks!
HomebrewedMonster 02-11-05, 12:34 AM	I'd like a current update on what's going on. Is this guy still being ignorant, or is he seeing that its a game people play to kill time and have some fun during the week?
Thorak 02-11-05, 12:51 AM	I appreciate the well written and thought out reply, and the only thing I can say in reply is that sometimes I feel like I have to defend the middle against both sides and it makes me more defensive than I should be. Thank you. No problem, I have a tendency to play devil's advocate myself, and it often makes me more offensive than I should be. :smirk:
iluvdnd47 02-11-05, 02:08 AM	Another thing you can consider is lending him some game material, like a Dragon Magazine. Just make sure he doesn't know how to decode it to find all the hidden satanic messages. Kidding of course, but do flip through it too make sure there's nothing to offend him. You could also photocopy one of Wil Wheaton's columns from Dungeon Magazine, they're pretty good. I kind of look at DND as interactive storytelling. It's no different than reading the LOTR and imagining what you would do in one of the characters places. Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never encountered the DND is evil, religious fundamentalism perspective in person. The negative connotation around here seems to be that the game is for geeks.
starwars1138 02-11-05, 08:28 AM	Well, his wife was armed with all the material that I found defending the game and debunking the myths. Since I'm not at work today, I'll be in the dark about how it went. But, I recruited another buddy to come over anyway, so we'll have enough people either way. I'll let you guys know.
Nomad4life 02-11-05, 10:24 AM	An easy way to handle this would be to simply call the game something else, such as the name of the campaign you are running. Even a mind-controlled religious zealot might not think anything of a game of “Forgotten Realms” or “Waterdeep.” If they ask questions, tell them the truth (but tell it slant- Emily Dickinson.) Tell them it is like a board game, but you can also gain points for acting. Most “normies” will generally say “sounds cool” and not think twice about it ever again. Strangest of all, a friend used this technique on another players boyfriend (a mind controlled religious freak) who thought that D&D was about Satan worship. From what I understand, not only did he not notice anything “unusual” while watching them play, he helped his own girlfriend create a character before leaving… He was completely unaware that he was partaking in the “evil” of Dungeons and Dragons the whole time! Muw! Ha! Ha!
Mootilator 02-11-05, 12:36 PM	So remember; the next time someone quotes the Old Testament at you, ask them if they've ever had lobster, clams, or similar things. So when The Man Himself quotes the words "It is written..." (reference to Old Testament scripture) 8 times in the first of the four Gospels, is it showing that He values the OT or that He disregards it as null and void? Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Some things of the Mosaic law changed, such as the dietary restrictions of the Jewish people. The dietary restrictions were put in place to mark the Jews as different from the non-Jews, (gentiles)and it served it's function. You can look at it as a change, or as part of a bigger plan. For example, let's say I want to create something that makes coffee. I pour the water into area "A", it is then sucked up into pipe "B", then it trickles into area "C", then drips out into container "D". Just because the water goes from one area to another doesn't mean I changed my mind about the whole thing, right? In the grand scheme of things, I can forsee that change from one place to the next is going to bring about the results I desire. In short, it would be incorrect to say that the OT was all just a bad idea so plan "B" was initiated. It's all part of a sequence that has been forseen. It is correct to say that the Mosaic laws are not binding to Christians. It is incorrect to say that the 10 Commandments, in specific, and the general condemnation of immoral behavior or lifestyles is no longer in effect. To say that the OT should be thrown out or ignored denies the reverance that Jesus Himself gave to the OT scriptures, which He frequently quoted as having authority. Don't get me wrong, though...if someone uses the Bible to beat folks over the head with verses taken out of context, regardless of if it's OT or NT, well...it's wrong. Instead of giving out a generalization like "The OT is not in effect", I would recommend if you actually CARE obout scripture, you should read it, learn it, and defend yourself in an intelligent, learned manner. I guarantee that if you do so, these folks that snip one verse out of the entire Bible and base their entire argument on it won't have a leg to stand on, and they will be exposed for what they are.
Farland 02-11-05, 12:59 PM	One thing you could do is talk to him and let him see that you are normal (assuming you are :) ) Then it would be rather illogical and indeed insulting for him to draw the conclusion that all DnD players are weird. So if he draws that conclusion, tell him so.
fistanthius 02-11-05, 02:13 PM	Have his wife sneak over to your house in the middle of the night for your game sessions. Well, not really. Game spy did a great article series on D&D on their web site. A lot of it is history, but it talks about the fight it had against the fundies who say "its da debil". But, if he thinks you are "da debil" trying to get him to "do debil tings" then he won't listen to you. Its best to let the wife stay married to the guy and not play d&d.
necromancer787 02-11-05, 03:54 PM	To be one-hundred percent truthful with you Star wars I think maybe he's a little afraid or intimidated by you or the game. It's part of the human condition to fear what we don't understand and as many of us know D&D can be really complicated, it's been branded as a "nerd's game", and as stated perviously is often reffered to as satanic. I think your best option is to calmy sit down with the guy and ask him why he thinks D&D is so satanic and what he dosen't understand. Don't tell him he's wrong (remember he's already closed-minded) just listen to him and make little suggestions against his pervious and wrong beliefs. Lastly as many have said before the best way to remove fear is to let him watch a game (just make sure the Final Boss isn't a Balor or something). lmao.
e-z0r 02-11-05, 04:18 PM	You should probably sacrifice him to the devil or demons you worship. It's actually for the best. (just make sure the Final Boss isn't a Balor or something). Why? If their nemesis is a Balor aren't they doing Jesus's work?
KnightErrantJR 02-11-05, 04:26 PM	You know, that reminds me of my HS days and how I got in trouble with sarcasm. I went to a parochial school until I was in 8th grade, and even played a game of D&D in Sunday school to show my teachers what it was about when we were discussing modern issues for teens. When I got into public high school I had people tell me I was a Satan worshipper becuase I played D&D. So sarcastically I offered to summon a demon for them at a party and they were all waiting for me to perform some ritual, at which point I decided to use sarcasm only in defence of my other habits, not for D&D.
Monster_Jam 02-11-05, 04:37 PM	After reading your initial post, the first question that poppoed in my mind was "I wonder if its worth the trouble?" She's married? He probably has other issues with letting his wife attend a D&D campaign that have nothing to do with D&D's stereotype (which I'm afraid to say is generally true). Time to post wanted ads at the nearest hobby store, my friend!
Bulabase 02-11-05, 04:53 PM	After reading this thread, I am firmly on the side of those who advocate looking for a deeper cause for the husband's reluctance to see his wife in a gaming group. I DM a group of mostly female players and my wife did not warmly embrace that concept at first. After meeting the nice, married, engaged and commited ladies in the group, she had no further reservations with the game. What is the relationship status of the other members of your group, yourself included? If you are essentially asking a married woman to stay out late with a group of single guys, it is only natural that the husband would balk. You are right to invite them both over to see what you actually plan to do. Hopefully, the fellow will be reasonable and accept that he married a geek and let you all have your fun. Good luck. As a side note, never argue scripture with a person of a different faith from your own. Certainly not unless they start it. It is offensive and sophomoric. Logical arguments against questions of faith should be anathema. You don't have to share someone's faith or even respect it, but it is the height of pride to tell another they are practicing their own faith incorrectly.
Stark Raven 02-11-05, 05:54 PM	You are right to invite them both over to see what you actually plan to do. Hopefully, the fellow will be reasonable and accept that he married a geek and let you all have your fun. Good luck. As a side note, never argue scripture with a person of a different faith from your own. Certainly not unless they start it. It is offensive and sophomoric. Logical arguments against questions of faith should be anathema. You don't have to share someone's faith or even respect it, but it is the height of pride to tell another they are practicing their own faith incorrectly.I agree with the invite them both over thing. You need to show him that it's just good, harmless fun and not something sinister. However, for some people, *any* mention of magic, wizards, dragons, etc. in any context is automatically going to get you sent straight to the Dark One's Eternal Pit of Not Nice Stuff. Hopefully, he's not that type and may even decide that it's a good chance for the two of them to have a shared hobby. Since we aren't supposed to talk about real world religion, let me address the second statement thusly: Say someone worships "Pelor", but they are screwing up all the rituals and commandments of everyone's favorite anthropomorphized ball of super-heated gas. You try to politely point out their errors, but are rebuffed. Later, they are eaten by a hungry Tarrasque and wind up standing before their beloved deity for Final Judgement. Pelor: Sorry, Dude. You bungled it big time. Worshipper: What?!? But I worshipped you all my life! Pelor: Yes, but you got arrogant and thought you knew better than me what I wanted. You were wrong. That nice Heathen boy tried to show you the right way, but you wouldn't listen, so now you are going to burn in Tartarus for all time. Thems the breaks. Sorry. Worshipper: D'oh!!! So, you see, it could be considered a worse thing to *not* try and point out when someone goes astray in their religion, whether you share it or not. Besides, religious arguments are fun, especially when you can make the other person look stupid. (I am, of course, kidding. Geez, people, lighten up already!)
starwars1138 02-13-05, 07:47 PM	As someone posted above, it might be more trouble than it's worth. If SHE is REALLY interested in playing, then she'll make the proper arrangements to either bring him over or put him in touch with me. The invite for her (and her husband of course) is open. I've worked with her for quite a few years, and much of the current party is made of co-workers. The other two people who are not co-workers, are a married couple whom I've known for years. While I thought that it might be cool to have another newbie player, there are plenty of other people to recruit who don't have to overcome the "suspicious spouse" hurdle. And as I said, is she really wants to make it happen, she'll best know how to handle her hubby, either by bringing him, debating with him, or putting him in contact with me (we've met a few times and have always gotten along). Thanks again for the advice gang. I will now retire to my shrine and finish the voodoo doll I was making in his likeness! ;)
Arcane Guyver 02-13-05, 10:53 PM	Razoreface - Thanks for the link. I loves Stackpole's work on the Star Wars: X-Wing novels, so this brought a rather large smile to my face. :)