Couple of questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Couple of questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Burpcycle
06-29-06, 05:11 PM This is my party:
Human LG 12 Paladin/4 Fighter (worships Torm) (me)
Lightfoot Halfling LG 10 Rogue/4 Slayer of Domiel (worships Tyr)
Tiefling CN 14 Wizard/2 Archmage (worships Tymora)
Drow NG 16 Favored Soul (worships Lathander)
Human LG 16 Monk (worships Ilmater)

We're playing a heroic campaign of fighting demons and so forth, and several times we've beaten the main mortal villain, a wizard. Four times he's surrended, we've captured him, and four times he escaped. If we try to capture him again after he surrenders, I'm sure he'll escape.
Now, normally I'd want to kill him, but this campaign makes it more complicated. I'm debating with the DM whether it's acceptable for a paladin to kill a prisoner, but even beyond that, the monk took a bunch of those "Vow of..." feats, so if he lets us kill the guy then he'll definitely lose the benefits and be nearly useless because he has no gear or money.

So, I have a couple of questions in the end, some of which are independant of this problem.
Can a paladin kill a prisoner who is guarenteed to escape if he was going to be executed by the authorities anyway?
Can an exalted character keep those exalted feats if he lets his party do something that he can't do?
Are either of them in trouble if their party does it behind their backs?
Can a paladin ally with a neutral cleric of an evil god (CN cleric of Talos or LN Cleric of Bane, for example)? (this came up earlier)
If you lose a prestige class with spellcasting increments (Celestial Mystic), do you lose the spells? (we lost a character earlier who had this happen when he turned LN by being a bastard)
DarkNick
06-29-06, 05:38 PM Can a paladin kill a prisoner who is guarenteed to escape if he was going to be executed by the authorities anyway?
I don't think so, they would follow the law in this case. But I don't see why you should accept his surrender - evil deserves no mercy!

Can an exalted character keep those exalted feats if he lets his party do something that he can't do?
No, unless they did not know what the party is doing. Could a good man sit back while their mates murdered someone?

Are either of them in trouble if their party does it behind their backs?
No, what they don't know they can't be a party to. Unless those characters have reason to believe the party would do stuff behind their backs and did nothing to thwart their plans.

Can a paladin ally with a neutral cleric of an evil god (CN cleric of Talos or LN Cleric of Bane, for example)? (this came up earlier)
Yes I think so. It says in the Phb that while they can not abide evil acts , they are willing to work with a variety of people. Worshipping an evil god does not instantly mean you are evil. But the Paladin would keep their eyes on them and they would not stay an ally if those people consistantly offended the paladins moral code (following an evil gods ways would probably do that). I think it would be a short relationship.
Immric
06-29-06, 05:49 PM This is my party:
Human LG 12 Paladin/4 Fighter (worships Torm) (me)
Lightfoot Halfling LG 10 Rogue/4 Slayer of Domiel (worships Tyr)
Tiefling CN 14 Wizard/2 Archmage (worships Tymora)
Drow NG 16 Favored Soul (worships Lathander)
Human LG 16 Monk (worships Ilmater)

We're playing a heroic campaign of fighting demons and so forth, and several times we've beaten the main mortal villain, a wizard. Four times he's surrended, we've captured him, and four times he escaped. If we try to capture him again after he surrenders, I'm sure he'll escape.
Now, normally I'd want to kill him, but this campaign makes it more complicated. I'm debating with the DM whether it's acceptable for a paladin to kill a prisoner, but even beyond that, the monk took a bunch of those "Vow of..." feats, so if he lets us kill the guy then he'll definitely lose the benefits and be nearly useless because he has no gear or money.

So, I have a couple of questions in the end, some of which are independant of this problem.
Can a paladin kill a prisoner who is guarenteed to escape if he was going to be executed by the authorities anyway?
Can an exalted character keep those exalted feats if he lets his party do something that he can't do?
Are either of them in trouble if their party does it behind their backs?
Can a paladin ally with a neutral cleric of an evil god (CN cleric of Talos or LN Cleric of Bane, for example)? (this came up earlier)
If you lose a prestige class with spellcasting increments (Celestial Mystic), do you lose the spells? (we lost a character earlier who had this happen when he turned LN by being a bastard)
First I don’t think a paladin can kill a prisoner. However, if an authority (King, queen, Lord, Commander ect…) called for a summery execution and the Paladin’s church supported the order then “shoot to kill”/”No Quarter” could apply and the paladin would kill the villain rather than accept his surrender. As for the exalted character in my campaign I would revoke the exalted bonuses if the character knowingly allows his/her companions to do something that would violate his/her code of ethics. If the rest of the party role-plays the encounter to keep the paladin and the exalted in the dark about what is truly going on then I would allow minimal penalties if any. As for an alliance with a cleric of an evil god… much more difficult short term with a clear goal perhaps, on orders from his/her superior yes, long term adventuring companion, most likely not. I have always played that the alignment constraints take a secondary place to the story and if the conflict between characters is played out properly (The Paladin refusing healing from the cleric due to the source of the spell) these opposing characters can make a great party. One of my most memorable player/character duos was a NE Necromancer and a LG Cleric. They always kept close to each other, the cleric to keep an eye on the Necromancer and the Necromancer kept trying to corrupt the cleric. It made a fun party
GoldLeader13
06-29-06, 06:06 PM I'm with the others in saying that a Paladin should not kill an unarmed prisoner. Anyone Lawful and/or Good that allows such an act would be in violation of their alignment. (Although, Chaotic Good might be able to get by, if their player is able to convince the DM)

As has already been stated, if someone else just kills him, without any warning to the others. There's nothing that the characters can do about it.

As an example, I ran a Star Wars game where a Dark Jedi prisoner was floating in a bacta tank. The two Jedi were in another room discussing what to do with their prisoner, as it was a moral dilemma, for them, to just off him. Meanwhile, the other PCs were just sitting around watching him float there. The assassin in the party just opened the tank and blew him away without warning anyone. (He was still really peeved about being Force Gripped earlier) The assassin got a Dark Side Point, as did the other two PCs because they had the chance to stop him, and chose not to. The Jedi were extremely upset, but did not gain Dark Side Points because they had no idea that the killing was taking place, and the players RPed their characters as very angry and morally distraught. I liked that they did that, and therefore gave no DSPs. However, had they not cared that the prisoner had just been executed, they, too, would have recieved the DSPs.
Revan_Revanthas
06-29-06, 07:32 PM For the most part, if the villan has committed crimes that would be punishable by death, then someone who follows a deity of justice would be honor bound to execute them if the secular authorities have been unable to do so. A wizard (or any spellcaster) cannot exactly be termed as "unarmed" or "defenseless" even if bound and gagged (Silent Spell / Still Spell / Eschew Materials), so the party would be reasonably justified in assuming that the villan has one or more of these options available to him. That again assumes that they aren't intimately familiar with the spellcasters capabilities.

As far as exalted feats / characters go, what they can and cannot do is pretty much spelled out in the Book of Exalted Deeds but even those rules can be interpreted in tandem with your various characters religious dogma.

In other words, what would Tyr do? Righteous fury is a powerful tool for overcoming the "thou shalt not..." parameters. I think the Almighty Known as Lefty would smite the wizard and be done with it.
Bruunwald
06-29-06, 07:51 PM No, the paladin can not kill a prisoner "guaranteed" to escape for the simple reason that neither you, the player, and especially not the paladin, know for sure that he is guaranteed to (that would be metagaming), and in any case, paladins can not kill unarmed prisoners, no matter what anybody else here tries to tell you.

And even if he was "guaranteed" to escape, and you somehow reconciled the notion that a paladin could kill a prisoner for any reason other than in defense, think about it: you're asking if killing him for an impending escape is reason enough. What you're really asking is if it's okay to kill someone because they are frustrating you. It's not. Killing him because he's an imminent threat is.

Both the paladin and any exalted character are bound by the laws of common decency. That means they can neither perpetrate those acts you mentioned, nor stand idly by and watch them. This is called honor. Some here will try to tell you that that is a modern concept. It is not. Honor is as ancient as human civilization.

Neither is in trouble for any acts on the part of the party that they are genuinely - and I mean GENUINELY unaware of. Since PC knowledge can be separated from player knowledge, you may have part of a solution there, but here's the hard part: such acts might affect the alignments of those involved, and their standing in the community, which might in turn affect the ability of the paladin and the monk from continuing a relationship with these people.

Paladins can ally with various others, even of differing faiths, for at least short periods, where there is need. I believe the PHB indicates that they will not work with certain alignments, but that doesn't mean your paladin need necessarily immediately know somebody else's alignment. I would think, though, that eventually, the paladin would want to distance himself from such a neutral priest, on the principle of not accidentally serving the machinations of the priest's evil god, and maybe, in a flavor sense, because he might find the whole situation distasteful.

A paladin would lose his spellcasting ability if he were to fall from grace (losing his paladin status), so I would say, based on that example, that yes, losing an entire prestige class from which you derive spellcasting as an ability, does remove the spells given to you by that class.

Now, the thing that bugs me about your situation, is your DM. Keeping a bad guy around for a long time can be fun, but sometimes it can become really, really frustrating when that guy keeps escaping. I think your DM ought to consider putting his villain into a situation he can't escape from, and possibly pressing the battle so that it does not always end in capture, but maybe in some way a bit more desperate. Obviously, he is not paying close attention to the frustration level of his players, that they have gone so far as to seek ways to nerf their characters to get rid of this guy. After all, he can always bring the villain back as undead or an outside, if he misses him that much.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Burpcycle 06-29-06, 05:11 PM	This is my party: Human LG 12 Paladin/4 Fighter (worships Torm) (me) Lightfoot Halfling LG 10 Rogue/4 Slayer of Domiel (worships Tyr) Tiefling CN 14 Wizard/2 Archmage (worships Tymora) Drow NG 16 Favored Soul (worships Lathander) Human LG 16 Monk (worships Ilmater) We're playing a heroic campaign of fighting demons and so forth, and several times we've beaten the main mortal villain, a wizard. Four times he's surrended, we've captured him, and four times he escaped. If we try to capture him again after he surrenders, I'm sure he'll escape. Now, normally I'd want to kill him, but this campaign makes it more complicated. I'm debating with the DM whether it's acceptable for a paladin to kill a prisoner, but even beyond that, the monk took a bunch of those "Vow of..." feats, so if he lets us kill the guy then he'll definitely lose the benefits and be nearly useless because he has no gear or money. So, I have a couple of questions in the end, some of which are independant of this problem. Can a paladin kill a prisoner who is guarenteed to escape if he was going to be executed by the authorities anyway? Can an exalted character keep those exalted feats if he lets his party do something that he can't do? Are either of them in trouble if their party does it behind their backs? Can a paladin ally with a neutral cleric of an evil god (CN cleric of Talos or LN Cleric of Bane, for example)? (this came up earlier) If you lose a prestige class with spellcasting increments (Celestial Mystic), do you lose the spells? (we lost a character earlier who had this happen when he turned LN by being a bastard)
DarkNick 06-29-06, 05:38 PM	Can a paladin kill a prisoner who is guarenteed to escape if he was going to be executed by the authorities anyway? I don't think so, they would follow the law in this case. But I don't see why you should accept his surrender - evil deserves no mercy! Can an exalted character keep those exalted feats if he lets his party do something that he can't do? No, unless they did not know what the party is doing. Could a good man sit back while their mates murdered someone? Are either of them in trouble if their party does it behind their backs? No, what they don't know they can't be a party to. Unless those characters have reason to believe the party would do stuff behind their backs and did nothing to thwart their plans. Can a paladin ally with a neutral cleric of an evil god (CN cleric of Talos or LN Cleric of Bane, for example)? (this came up earlier) Yes I think so. It says in the Phb that while they can not abide evil acts , they are willing to work with a variety of people. Worshipping an evil god does not instantly mean you are evil. But the Paladin would keep their eyes on them and they would not stay an ally if those people consistantly offended the paladins moral code (following an evil gods ways would probably do that). I think it would be a short relationship.
Immric 06-29-06, 05:49 PM	This is my party: Human LG 12 Paladin/4 Fighter (worships Torm) (me) Lightfoot Halfling LG 10 Rogue/4 Slayer of Domiel (worships Tyr) Tiefling CN 14 Wizard/2 Archmage (worships Tymora) Drow NG 16 Favored Soul (worships Lathander) Human LG 16 Monk (worships Ilmater) We're playing a heroic campaign of fighting demons and so forth, and several times we've beaten the main mortal villain, a wizard. Four times he's surrended, we've captured him, and four times he escaped. If we try to capture him again after he surrenders, I'm sure he'll escape. Now, normally I'd want to kill him, but this campaign makes it more complicated. I'm debating with the DM whether it's acceptable for a paladin to kill a prisoner, but even beyond that, the monk took a bunch of those "Vow of..." feats, so if he lets us kill the guy then he'll definitely lose the benefits and be nearly useless because he has no gear or money. So, I have a couple of questions in the end, some of which are independant of this problem. Can a paladin kill a prisoner who is guarenteed to escape if he was going to be executed by the authorities anyway? Can an exalted character keep those exalted feats if he lets his party do something that he can't do? Are either of them in trouble if their party does it behind their backs? Can a paladin ally with a neutral cleric of an evil god (CN cleric of Talos or LN Cleric of Bane, for example)? (this came up earlier) If you lose a prestige class with spellcasting increments (Celestial Mystic), do you lose the spells? (we lost a character earlier who had this happen when he turned LN by being a bastard) First I don’t think a paladin can kill a prisoner. However, if an authority (King, queen, Lord, Commander ect…) called for a summery execution and the Paladin’s church supported the order then “shoot to kill”/”No Quarter” could apply and the paladin would kill the villain rather than accept his surrender. As for the exalted character in my campaign I would revoke the exalted bonuses if the character knowingly allows his/her companions to do something that would violate his/her code of ethics. If the rest of the party role-plays the encounter to keep the paladin and the exalted in the dark about what is truly going on then I would allow minimal penalties if any. As for an alliance with a cleric of an evil god… much more difficult short term with a clear goal perhaps, on orders from his/her superior yes, long term adventuring companion, most likely not. I have always played that the alignment constraints take a secondary place to the story and if the conflict between characters is played out properly (The Paladin refusing healing from the cleric due to the source of the spell) these opposing characters can make a great party. One of my most memorable player/character duos was a NE Necromancer and a LG Cleric. They always kept close to each other, the cleric to keep an eye on the Necromancer and the Necromancer kept trying to corrupt the cleric. It made a fun party
GoldLeader13 06-29-06, 06:06 PM	I'm with the others in saying that a Paladin should not kill an unarmed prisoner. Anyone Lawful and/or Good that allows such an act would be in violation of their alignment. (Although, Chaotic Good might be able to get by, if their player is able to convince the DM) As has already been stated, if someone else just kills him, without any warning to the others. There's nothing that the characters can do about it. As an example, I ran a Star Wars game where a Dark Jedi prisoner was floating in a bacta tank. The two Jedi were in another room discussing what to do with their prisoner, as it was a moral dilemma, for them, to just off him. Meanwhile, the other PCs were just sitting around watching him float there. The assassin in the party just opened the tank and blew him away without warning anyone. (He was still really peeved about being Force Gripped earlier) The assassin got a Dark Side Point, as did the other two PCs because they had the chance to stop him, and chose not to. The Jedi were extremely upset, but did not gain Dark Side Points because they had no idea that the killing was taking place, and the players RPed their characters as very angry and morally distraught. I liked that they did that, and therefore gave no DSPs. However, had they not cared that the prisoner had just been executed, they, too, would have recieved the DSPs.
Revan_Revanthas 06-29-06, 07:32 PM	For the most part, if the villan has committed crimes that would be punishable by death, then someone who follows a deity of justice would be honor bound to execute them if the secular authorities have been unable to do so. A wizard (or any spellcaster) cannot exactly be termed as "unarmed" or "defenseless" even if bound and gagged (Silent Spell / Still Spell / Eschew Materials), so the party would be reasonably justified in assuming that the villan has one or more of these options available to him. That again assumes that they aren't intimately familiar with the spellcasters capabilities. As far as exalted feats / characters go, what they can and cannot do is pretty much spelled out in the Book of Exalted Deeds but even those rules can be interpreted in tandem with your various characters religious dogma. In other words, what would Tyr do? Righteous fury is a powerful tool for overcoming the "thou shalt not..." parameters. I think the Almighty Known as Lefty would smite the wizard and be done with it.
Bruunwald 06-29-06, 07:51 PM	No, the paladin can not kill a prisoner "guaranteed" to escape for the simple reason that neither you, the player, and especially not the paladin, know for sure that he is guaranteed to (that would be metagaming), and in any case, paladins can not kill unarmed prisoners, no matter what anybody else here tries to tell you. And even if he was "guaranteed" to escape, and you somehow reconciled the notion that a paladin could kill a prisoner for any reason other than in defense, think about it: you're asking if killing him for an impending escape is reason enough. What you're really asking is if it's okay to kill someone because they are frustrating you. It's not. Killing him because he's an imminent threat is. Both the paladin and any exalted character are bound by the laws of common decency. That means they can neither perpetrate those acts you mentioned, nor stand idly by and watch them. This is called honor. Some here will try to tell you that that is a modern concept. It is not. Honor is as ancient as human civilization. Neither is in trouble for any acts on the part of the party that they are genuinely - and I mean GENUINELY unaware of. Since PC knowledge can be separated from player knowledge, you may have part of a solution there, but here's the hard part: such acts might affect the alignments of those involved, and their standing in the community, which might in turn affect the ability of the paladin and the monk from continuing a relationship with these people. Paladins can ally with various others, even of differing faiths, for at least short periods, where there is need. I believe the PHB indicates that they will not work with certain alignments, but that doesn't mean your paladin need necessarily immediately know somebody else's alignment. I would think, though, that eventually, the paladin would want to distance himself from such a neutral priest, on the principle of not accidentally serving the machinations of the priest's evil god, and maybe, in a flavor sense, because he might find the whole situation distasteful. A paladin would lose his spellcasting ability if he were to fall from grace (losing his paladin status), so I would say, based on that example, that yes, losing an entire prestige class from which you derive spellcasting as an ability, does remove the spells given to you by that class. Now, the thing that bugs me about your situation, is your DM. Keeping a bad guy around for a long time can be fun, but sometimes it can become really, really frustrating when that guy keeps escaping. I think your DM ought to consider putting his villain into a situation he can't escape from, and possibly pressing the battle so that it does not always end in capture, but maybe in some way a bit more desperate. Obviously, he is not paying close attention to the frustration level of his players, that they have gone so far as to seek ways to nerf their characters to get rid of this guy. After all, he can always bring the villain back as undead or an outside, if he misses him that much.