CR and skills for high level familiar [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR and skills for high level familiar [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nomisilthrin
12-07-06, 04:23 PM Hi

I am trying to stat out a high level raven familiar for a NPC 14th level sorcerer. I've followed all the instructions in the PHB for creating the familiar but am left with a couple of queries - CR and skills. Hopefully some kind soul might help me out (or point me in the right direction if this is the wrong forum - I couldn't find a d20 rules help forum - very weird).

Here's what I have so far:

Raven Familiar: CR 1/6; Tiny animal; HD 14; hp 15; Init +2; Spd 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average); AC 21 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 19; Base Atk +7; Grp –8: Attack Claws +9/+4 melee (1d2 –5); Full Atk (same); Space/Reach 2 1/2 ft. /0 ft.; SA -; SQ alertness, deliver touch spells, empathic link, improved evasion, low–light vision, scry on familiar, share spells, speak language (common), speak with animals of its kind, speak with master, SR 19; AL N; SV Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +11; Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 6.
Skills and Feats: Knowledge (arcana) +18, Listen +19, Spellcraft +18, Spot +19; Weapon Finesse.

However, with all the buffs the familiar gets (increased natural AC, attacks, HD, hp, SQs), surely the CR has to increase from the base raven? I notice that the DMG has 'CR -' for all the familiars on pp. 200-203, presumably because the master's details are not specified. So, how do you work out the CR for a familiar if you do know the master's stats?

Secondly, all the PHB states for familiar skills is that "for each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever are better."
Am I right in thinking that the familiar gains all its master's skills at the master's skill rank plus all its normal animal skill ranks? Are these normal animal skill ranks increased by its increased HD and are the number of skills increased by its increased Int? I have presumed that ranks have increased in my stats above, but not number of skills (the additional Knowl & Spellcraft skills come from the master's skills, and those scores are affected by Int bizarrely). Should I give it another skill?

Thanks for any help.
CriminalTruth
12-07-06, 04:28 PM ur best bet is to leave the familier at home. I play a HL wizard archmage and honestly... i wouldnt even summon one..

HOWEVER; there is another mage in the party with a dragon familer.. and he uses buff spells and spells from the draconmincron to make the damn things horrific.. but normal familiers? better to just leave at home.
E_Morrow
12-07-06, 05:48 PM First off, I really don’t know that it’s CR would ever be that important. The familiar itself is a part of your sorceror’s CR, and if it comes to a situation where figuring out just how tough a lone familiar is, it’s probably dead already.

Second, I’ve got bad news for you. Your familiar doesn’t really have those HD. Unlike an animal companion which really does gain HD and bonuses as their master levels, a familiar just get some bonuses. There’s an article about it in the Rules of the Game section, but the long story short is that your familiar is the same poor animal at level 14 that it was at level 1 as far as its own HD based attributes go (skills, BAB, feats, saves, stat ups, etc.). It will just end up using the master’s stats more and more as they continue to improve while its stay the same. The master's HD are only used for things like spell effects such as Sleep or Cirlce of Death so the familiar doesn't just drop like a stone when adventuring.

As to your skill question: The familiar gets the best of both worlds. If your raven has 4 ranks in Spot and Listen and your sorcerer has neglected those skills and poured 8 ranks into UMD instead, then the familiar has Spot & Listen at 4 ranks and UMD at 8 ranks. And if they both have Hide at 6 and 10 ranks respectively, the familiar has 10. It just uses the number of whoever has more ‘ranks’ in the skill. It will still use its own ability modifier, racial bonuses, or feats though. And despite the higher Int, it will not have more skills since, as I said above, it does not ever ‘level up’.

Hope this helps.
Stoyrm
12-07-06, 05:54 PM ask your dm if u can get a bonus feat insted of a familiar, always much better -.-
Nomisilthrin
12-07-06, 06:15 PM ask your dm if u can get a bonus feat insted of a familiar, always much better -.-
Which would be fine, if I wasn't trying to stat out an NPC familiar - I am the DM!!
allenchan
12-07-06, 06:18 PM Which would be fine, if I wasn't trying to stat out an NPC familiar - I am the DM!!

Because, seriously, PCs need to know about CRs, right? :rolleyes:

Some people.

But as already mentioned, familiars do not have CRs, nor do animal companions, paladin special mounts, etc. They are part of the NPC's CR, as they are technically a class feature.
High Octane
12-07-06, 06:27 PM Wizards dont leave their familiars in harms way. Its CR should be irrelevant.
Nomisilthrin
12-07-06, 06:34 PM First off, I really don’t know that it’s CR would ever be that important. The familiar itself is a part of your sorceror’s CR, and if it comes to a situation where figuring out just how tough a lone familiar is, it’s probably dead already.

Second, I’ve got bad news for you. Your familiar doesn’t really have those HD. Unlike an animal companion which really does gain HD and bonuses as their master levels, a familiar just get some bonuses. There’s an article about it in the Rules of the Game section, but the long story short is that your familiar is the same poor animal at level 14 that it was at level 1 as far as its own HD based attributes go (skills, BAB, feats, saves, stat ups, etc.). It will just end up using the master’s stats more and more as they continue to improve while its stay the same. The master's HD are only used for things like spell effects such as Sleep or Cirlce of Death so the familiar doesn't just drop like a stone when adventuring.

As to your skill question: The familiar gets the best of both worlds. If your raven has 4 ranks in Spot and Listen and your sorcerer has neglected those skills and poured 8 ranks into UMD instead, then the familiar has Spot & Listen at 4 ranks and UMD at 8 ranks. And if they both have Hide at 6 and 10 ranks respectively, the familiar has 10. It just uses the number of whoever has more ‘ranks’ in the skill. It will still use its own ability modifier, racial bonuses, or feats though. And despite the higher Int, it will not have more skills since, as I said above, it does not ever ‘level up’.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your reply.

In the adventure I am writing, the NPC raven familiar is spying on the PCs, away from its master. I'm using it as a foreshadowing of events to come. The adventure may be published, hence I need a CR. And yes, it's on its own, and it's only dead if the PCs get past its AC 21 and SR 19!;)

The HD is not all that important since attacks, saves and skills are all treated separately and are equivalent to the master's, IIRC. It's just there in the stat block 'cause it says it should be for effects. It does not affect the creature's feats or any other stat in the block.

Re: skills. Does the increase from Int 2 to 12 not give it any additional skill points even at its base level?
Nomisilthrin
12-07-06, 06:40 PM Because, seriously, PCs need to know about CRs, right? :rolleyes:

Some people.

But as already mentioned, familiars do not have CRs, nor do animal companions, paladin special mounts, etc. They are part of the NPC's CR, as they are technically a class feature.

Ah! Yes, good point. That's why there's no CR on them. Hmmm...see my mail above as to why this makes things a little difficult.

Thanks for that, though - makes sense.
E_Morrow
12-07-06, 08:34 PM Re: skills. Does the increase from Int 2 to 12 not give it any additional skill points even at its base level?

Technically, no. But hey, I always felt that familiars got a little shafted by never really improving and you're the Dm, so feel free if you'd like.

To approximate the CR, you could maybe try taking a normal raven from the MM and advancing it according to the rules until it resembled where the familiar is at and see what the CR is. I don't have my book handy, but I think it mentions how CR goes up as well.
StevenO
12-08-06, 06:55 PM What is a familiar? Just a simple, low CR creature that gains abilities because of ties with its master. It keeps its own abilities/skills but if the master's skill is better it ignores its own and uses the master's instead.

If used independantly of its master (not recommended) I may grant it a CR 1/4 to 1/3 of its master's rounded down. It certainly is more powerful than a basic specimen but certainly only a fraction of what its master should be. An alternate method which I don't recommend is giving it +1 CR each time it takes another step up the "familiar abilties" table found in the PHB; this may make it underpowered if the master is multiclassed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nomisilthrin 12-07-06, 04:23 PM	Hi I am trying to stat out a high level raven familiar for a NPC 14th level sorcerer. I've followed all the instructions in the PHB for creating the familiar but am left with a couple of queries - CR and skills. Hopefully some kind soul might help me out (or point me in the right direction if this is the wrong forum - I couldn't find a d20 rules help forum - very weird). Here's what I have so far: Raven Familiar: CR 1/6; Tiny animal; HD 14; hp 15; Init +2; Spd 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average); AC 21 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 19; Base Atk +7; Grp –8: Attack Claws +9/+4 melee (1d2 –5); Full Atk (same); Space/Reach 2 1/2 ft. /0 ft.; SA -; SQ alertness, deliver touch spells, empathic link, improved evasion, low–light vision, scry on familiar, share spells, speak language (common), speak with animals of its kind, speak with master, SR 19; AL N; SV Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +11; Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 6. Skills and Feats: Knowledge (arcana) +18, Listen +19, Spellcraft +18, Spot +19; Weapon Finesse. However, with all the buffs the familiar gets (increased natural AC, attacks, HD, hp, SQs), surely the CR has to increase from the base raven? I notice that the DMG has 'CR -' for all the familiars on pp. 200-203, presumably because the master's details are not specified. So, how do you work out the CR for a familiar if you do know the master's stats? Secondly, all the PHB states for familiar skills is that "for each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever are better." Am I right in thinking that the familiar gains all its master's skills at the master's skill rank plus all its normal animal skill ranks? Are these normal animal skill ranks increased by its increased HD and are the number of skills increased by its increased Int? I have presumed that ranks have increased in my stats above, but not number of skills (the additional Knowl & Spellcraft skills come from the master's skills, and those scores are affected by Int bizarrely). Should I give it another skill? Thanks for any help.
CriminalTruth 12-07-06, 04:28 PM	ur best bet is to leave the familier at home. I play a HL wizard archmage and honestly... i wouldnt even summon one.. HOWEVER; there is another mage in the party with a dragon familer.. and he uses buff spells and spells from the draconmincron to make the damn things horrific.. but normal familiers? better to just leave at home.
E_Morrow 12-07-06, 05:48 PM	First off, I really don’t know that it’s CR would ever be that important. The familiar itself is a part of your sorceror’s CR, and if it comes to a situation where figuring out just how tough a lone familiar is, it’s probably dead already. Second, I’ve got bad news for you. Your familiar doesn’t really have those HD. Unlike an animal companion which really does gain HD and bonuses as their master levels, a familiar just get some bonuses. There’s an article about it in the Rules of the Game section, but the long story short is that your familiar is the same poor animal at level 14 that it was at level 1 as far as its own HD based attributes go (skills, BAB, feats, saves, stat ups, etc.). It will just end up using the master’s stats more and more as they continue to improve while its stay the same. The master's HD are only used for things like spell effects such as Sleep or Cirlce of Death so the familiar doesn't just drop like a stone when adventuring. As to your skill question: The familiar gets the best of both worlds. If your raven has 4 ranks in Spot and Listen and your sorcerer has neglected those skills and poured 8 ranks into UMD instead, then the familiar has Spot & Listen at 4 ranks and UMD at 8 ranks. And if they both have Hide at 6 and 10 ranks respectively, the familiar has 10. It just uses the number of whoever has more ‘ranks’ in the skill. It will still use its own ability modifier, racial bonuses, or feats though. And despite the higher Int, it will not have more skills since, as I said above, it does not ever ‘level up’. Hope this helps.
Stoyrm 12-07-06, 05:54 PM	ask your dm if u can get a bonus feat insted of a familiar, always much better -.-
Nomisilthrin 12-07-06, 06:15 PM	ask your dm if u can get a bonus feat insted of a familiar, always much better -.- Which would be fine, if I wasn't trying to stat out an NPC familiar - I am the DM!!
allenchan 12-07-06, 06:18 PM	Which would be fine, if I wasn't trying to stat out an NPC familiar - I am the DM!! Because, seriously, PCs need to know about CRs, right? :rolleyes: Some people. But as already mentioned, familiars do not have CRs, nor do animal companions, paladin special mounts, etc. They are part of the NPC's CR, as they are technically a class feature.
High Octane 12-07-06, 06:27 PM	Wizards dont leave their familiars in harms way. Its CR should be irrelevant.
Nomisilthrin 12-07-06, 06:34 PM	First off, I really don’t know that it’s CR would ever be that important. The familiar itself is a part of your sorceror’s CR, and if it comes to a situation where figuring out just how tough a lone familiar is, it’s probably dead already. Second, I’ve got bad news for you. Your familiar doesn’t really have those HD. Unlike an animal companion which really does gain HD and bonuses as their master levels, a familiar just get some bonuses. There’s an article about it in the Rules of the Game section, but the long story short is that your familiar is the same poor animal at level 14 that it was at level 1 as far as its own HD based attributes go (skills, BAB, feats, saves, stat ups, etc.). It will just end up using the master’s stats more and more as they continue to improve while its stay the same. The master's HD are only used for things like spell effects such as Sleep or Cirlce of Death so the familiar doesn't just drop like a stone when adventuring. As to your skill question: The familiar gets the best of both worlds. If your raven has 4 ranks in Spot and Listen and your sorcerer has neglected those skills and poured 8 ranks into UMD instead, then the familiar has Spot & Listen at 4 ranks and UMD at 8 ranks. And if they both have Hide at 6 and 10 ranks respectively, the familiar has 10. It just uses the number of whoever has more ‘ranks’ in the skill. It will still use its own ability modifier, racial bonuses, or feats though. And despite the higher Int, it will not have more skills since, as I said above, it does not ever ‘level up’. Hope this helps. Thanks for your reply. In the adventure I am writing, the NPC raven familiar is spying on the PCs, away from its master. I'm using it as a foreshadowing of events to come. The adventure may be published, hence I need a CR. And yes, it's on its own, and it's only dead if the PCs get past its AC 21 and SR 19!;) The HD is not all that important since attacks, saves and skills are all treated separately and are equivalent to the master's, IIRC. It's just there in the stat block 'cause it says it should be for effects. It does not affect the creature's feats or any other stat in the block. Re: skills. Does the increase from Int 2 to 12 not give it any additional skill points even at its base level?
Nomisilthrin 12-07-06, 06:40 PM	Because, seriously, PCs need to know about CRs, right? :rolleyes: Some people. But as already mentioned, familiars do not have CRs, nor do animal companions, paladin special mounts, etc. They are part of the NPC's CR, as they are technically a class feature. Ah! Yes, good point. That's why there's no CR on them. Hmmm...see my mail above as to why this makes things a little difficult. Thanks for that, though - makes sense.
E_Morrow 12-07-06, 08:34 PM	Re: skills. Does the increase from Int 2 to 12 not give it any additional skill points even at its base level? Technically, no. But hey, I always felt that familiars got a little shafted by never really improving and you're the Dm, so feel free if you'd like. To approximate the CR, you could maybe try taking a normal raven from the MM and advancing it according to the rules until it resembled where the familiar is at and see what the CR is. I don't have my book handy, but I think it mentions how CR goes up as well.
StevenO 12-08-06, 06:55 PM	What is a familiar? Just a simple, low CR creature that gains abilities because of ties with its master. It keeps its own abilities/skills but if the master's skill is better it ignores its own and uses the master's instead. If used independantly of its master (not recommended) I may grant it a CR 1/4 to 1/3 of its master's rounded down. It certainly is more powerful than a basic specimen but certainly only a fraction of what its master should be. An alternate method which I don't recommend is giving it +1 CR each time it takes another step up the "familiar abilties" table found in the PHB; this may make it underpowered if the master is multiclassed.