Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KendallDM 02-07-07, 10:38 PM	I use this method for my game. Personally, I hate any method of CR calculation that is not formulized, though I do understand that different combat scenarios will net different profound results. So, the method used now, which is essentially, what challenges a 4 person party, has to be tested before CRs are really accurately applied. Here's my problem with the system. As it stands, there are two systems for generating a CR, character level, and creature abilities. That makes no sense whatsoever, since character level never takes into account that character's abilities (come on, level is not a good determinate), nor does a creature's abilities take into account its level (i.e. HD) only. These two disparate methods don't cooperate with each other, and really don't even have an equal measure of usage. Now, don't get me wrong, I've run the D&D CR Method for the first 2 years, but I've spent the last 3 years tweaking and fixing it so it makes more sense. How many of the CRs out there just seem totally out of whack? I went back to 2nd Edition (whose method, though complex, worked reasonably well) and incorporated it into a method that, after much editing, and re-editing, creates a CR calculation that is in the neighborhood of being 90% correct. Here's the rub. In order for the system to work, you have to apply this system to characters with levels as well (that is, no longer creating a CR for a character based solely on his level, but on the following method instead.) In time, this method can be used very quickly to determine a monster's, or character's CR, as you become more familiar with it. Unfortunately, I laid it out for use with the older monster statblock, for ease of use. Edit it as you see fit to make it work for you. So, without further ado... BASE CR Take the creatures total HD and divide by 2, rounding down. If a creature has 1 HD, it is considered a CR 1/2. If a CR 1/2 takes a -1 to its CR (see below), step it down to the next fractional amount (1/3, 1/4, etc.) ABILITIES Abilities are catergorized below, and given CR ratings based on their strength. These ratings within a category do not stack (only take the best CR rating from each category). The reasoning on this is due to the fact that in most cases, only one ability is in play against any one individual at any one time. The one exception to this rule is the negative rating in a category, always take the most negative rating from a category (if you have any), in addition to the positive rating (they oftentimes cancel each other out.) NOTE: Determine a monster with class levels hit point calculation by which HD total is greater (monster if more creature HD, character if more class HD.) In the case of a tie, always defer to monster. Hit Points Category +3 Monster hit points average 12.5 or more per HD +3 Character hit points average 10.5 or more per HD +2 Monster hit points average 10.5 to 12.4 per HD +2 Character hit points average 8.5 to 10.4 per HD +1 Monster hit points average 8.5 to 10.4 per HD +1 Character hit points average 6.5 to 8.4 per HD -1 Monster hit points average 6.5 or less per HD -1 Character hit points average 4.5 or less per HD Special Movement Category +2 Any movement as a free action +1 Fly speed +1 Burrow speed 20 ft or more +1 Swim speed (if combat occurs within element) -1 Any movement speed of 10 ft or less -1 Limited to single actions (i.e. zombies) Armor Class Category +3 Armor class 31 or greater +2 Armor class 26 to 30 +1 Armor class 21 to 25 -1 Armor class 10 or less Damage Potential Category (including rend, constrict, sneak attack, etc., but not including spells and spell-like abilities or critical hits) +3 Multiple attacks that average 55 or more damage +3 Single attack that averages 25 or more damage +2 Multiple attacks that average 40 to 54 damage +2 Single attack that averages 20 to 24 damage +1 Multiple attacks that average 25 to 39 damage +1 Single attack that averages 15 to 19 damage -1 Multiple attacks that average 10 or less damage -1 Single attack that averages 5 or less damage Special Attacks Category (poisons fall into this category, dependent on what their effect is) +3 Energy drain 3 or more levels +3 Constitution damage/drain averages 4 points or more +3 Dexterity or Strength damage/drain averages 5 points or more +3 Charisma, Intelligence, or Wisdom damage/drain averages 6 points or more +3 Paralysis or Stun, average 1 minute (10 rounds) or greater +3 Breath weapon, 16 or more dice +3 Deadly ranged touch/area effect (gaze attacks, breath weapons, ray attacks, etc.) +2 Energy drain 2 levels +2 Constitution damage/drain averages 2 to 3.5 points +2 Dexterity or Strength damage/drain averages 3 to 4.5 points +2 Charisma, Intelligence, or Wisdom damage/drain averages 4 to 5.5 points +2 Paralysis or Stun, average 4 to 9.5 rounds +2 Breath weapon, 10 to 15 dice +2 Deadly melee touch/area effect (death touch, petrification touch, etc.) +1 Energy drain 1 level +1 Constitution damage/drain averages 1.5 points or less +1 Dexterity or Strength damage/drain averages 1 to 2.5 points +1 Charisma, Intelligence, or Wisdom damage/drain averages 2 to 3.5 points +1 Paralysis or Stun, average 2 to 3.5 rounds +1 Breath weapon, 6 to 9 dice +1 Non-deadly ranged or melee touch/area effect (frightful presence, fear aura) -1 Immediate saving throw vs. special attack, DC 13 or less -1 Conditional vulnerability present (such as daylight against orcs) Recovery Category +3 Fast healing or regeneration, 20 hit points or more +3 Self healing special ability, 1/2 hit points or more +2 Fast healing or regeneration, 15 to 19 hit points +2 Self healing special ability, between 1/4 to 1/2 hit points +1 Fast healing or regeneration, 10 to 14 hit points +1 Self healing special ability, 1/4 hit points or less -1 Any ability which causes the creature a loss of hit points Special Defenses Category (creature with the X or Y damage reduction take the worst of the two; creature with X and magic takes the X CR rating; special material = cold iron, silver; alignment = chaotic, good, evil, lawful; damage type = bludgeoning, piercing, slashing) +3 Damage Reduction, 20 or more/adamantine, 20 or more/- +3 Damage Reduction, 20 or more/any two but magic (x and y) +3 Immunities, 6 or more (combat significant) +3 Resistance to Energy 20, up to two types +3 Resistance to Energy 15, three types or more +3 Spell Resistance, 30 or more +2 Damage Reduction, 15/adamantine, 15/-, 20 or more/special material, 20 or more/alignment, 20 or more/damage type +2 Damage Reduction, 15/any two but magic (x and y) +2 Immunities, 3 to 5 (combat significant) +2 Resistance to Energy 15, up to two types +2 Resistance to Energy 10, three types or more +2 Spell Resistance, 22 to 29 +1 Damage Reduction, 10/adamantine, 10/-, 15/special material, 15/alignment, 15/damage type +1 Damage Reduction, 10/any two but magic (x and y) +1 Immunities, 1 to 2 (combat significant) +1 Resistance to Energy 10, one or two +1 Resistance to Energy 5, three types or more +1 Spell Resistance, 15 to 21 +1 Incorporeal +0 Damage Reduction, 5 or more/magic, 5/admantine, 5/-, 10/special material, 10/alignment, 10/damage type +0 Damage Reduction, 5 any two (x and y) -1 Vulnerability to energy, any -1 Vulnerability to select spells Magic Category (summon creature ability should be considered the appropriate level summon monster spell) +3 Spell use or spell-like ability, 6th to 9th level spells +2 Spell use or spell-like ability, 3rd to 5th level spells +1 Spell use or spell-like ability, 1st to 2nd level spells Magic Item Use Category +3 Use of artifact +3 Uses 3 or more major non-weapon, non-amor magic items +3 Uses 6 or more medium non-weapon, non-amor magic items +3 Uses 12 or more minor non-weapon, non-amor magic items +2 Uses 1 or 2 major non-weapon, non-amor magic items +2 Uses 3 to 5 medium non-weapon, non-amor magic items +2 Uses 7 to 11 minor non-weapon, non-amor magic items +1 Uses 1 or 2 medium non-weapon, non-amor magic items +1 Uses 3 to 5 minor non-weapon, non-amor magic items -1 Uses a cursed item which detriments combat ability Always remember, you as the DM are the final arbiter of creature's CR. If you feel that a CR determined by this method is too strong, or too weak, feel free to adjust it accordingly. Though I find this method extremely useful, it breaks down somewhat in certain circumstances, and I find its just easier in those cases to go with what seems best.
KendallDM 02-07-07, 10:52 PM	Base CR: 25 HD/2 = 14 Hit Points: 337 (greater than 12.5 avg) +3 Special Movement: None +0 Armor Class: 32 +3 Damage Potential: Single Attack 29 damage +3 (at this point I'm at the highest rating I can receive in this category, no reason to figure out multiple attacks) Special Attacks: None +0 Recovery: None +0 Special Defenses: None +0 Magic: 6th level spell +3 Magic Item Use: None +0 CR = 14+3+0+3+3+0+0+0+3+0 = 26 (probably a bit high, calculation breaks down in the epic areas)
KendallDM 02-07-07, 11:10 PM	Base CR: 17 HD/2 = 8 Hit Points: 109 (more class HD than monster, use character, 6.4 avg) +0 Special Movement: None +0 Armor Class: 24 +1 Damage Potential: Single Attack 2.5 damage +0; Multiple Attack 10 damage +0 Special Attacks: Stun avg 7.5 rounds +2; Deadly melee touch (extract) +2 (this is not better that the stun attack, so it remains +2 overall) Recovery: None +0 Special Defenses: SR 34 +3 Magic: 7th level spell (plane shift) +3 Magic Item Use: None +0 CR = 8+0+0+1+0+2+0+3+3+0 = 17 (same as book)
bonethug0108 02-07-07, 11:13 PM	I can see you put a LOT of time into this. I have been using what I want mixed with what I know might work, and fudging rolls as necessary.(in the pc's favor, though deaths still occur) I am awaiting a bit of news before I implement something new, but it certainly seems you have a solid system.:)
KendallDM 02-07-07, 11:14 PM	Base CR: 4 HD/2 = 2 Hit Points: 29 (monster, 7.25 avg) +0 Special Movement: None +0 Armor Class: 16 +0 Damage Potential: Single Attack 16 damage +1 Special Attacks: None +0 Recovery: None +0 Special Defenses: None +0 Magic: None +0 Magic Item Use: None +0 CR = 2+0+0+0+1+0+0+0+0+0 = 3 (same as book)
KendallDM 02-07-07, 11:19 PM	I can see you put a LOT of time into this. I have been using what I want mixed with what I know might work, and fudging rolls as necessary.(in the pc's favor, though deaths still occur) I am awaiting a bit of news before I implement something new, but it certainly seems you have a solid system.:) Thanks, I've put alot of time into it from game session to game session over 3 years. It still probably could use some tweaking to get the epic progressions to work out, but I'll leave that to whomever runs epic stuff. I don't run any players that are quite that high in level. The neat thing about this, is that is works for PCs as well. You can calculate a reasonable level of challenge based on the level of CR rating the PC actually clocks out, which is often higher than their actual level (which is WotC's way of calculating character class CRs). With this method, you can see not only how, but why, the CR systems sometimes breaks down (either too strong for party strength, or to weak for party strength.) Just thought since I have it working at 90% (rather than the WotC method which comes in at 70% accuracy), I might as well share it with the community :).
bonethug0108 02-07-07, 11:25 PM	I think 70% is generous, at least at higher levels. We were actually discussing this in a thread in the future releases forum asking about 4e. I said something along the lines of having the cr actually equal the pc's level. But I guess it would still break down, seeing how it works. I never knew they used the monsters abilities alone(I think that's what you said but I could be wrong). Has your findings proved that a 20th level cleric/wizard/sorcceror is way stronger than a 20th level fighter:D
KendallDM 02-07-07, 11:53 PM	Has your findings proved that a 20th level cleric/wizard/sorcceror is way stronger than a 20th level fighter:D Let's make some assumptions, Wizard Con 14, Cleric Con 16, Fighter Con 18, and they took the advanced in other ability scores. Let's also assume the AC for each class is equalized in essential ability, Wizard AC 18, Cleric AC 24, Fighter AC 29. Fighter advanced Strength to 23 (+6 damage). Last assumption, that the Wizard has alot of useful magic items, the Cleric half useful/half armor & weapons, and the Fighter mostly all armor & weapons. Base CR: 20 HD/2 = 10 (for all 3 classes) Hit Points: Wizard (4.5 avg) -1; Cleric (7.5 avg) +1, Fighter (9.5 avg) +2 Special Movement: None +0 Armor Class: Wizard 18 +0; Cleric 24 +1; Fighter 29 +2 Damage Potential: Wizard Single Attack 2.5 damage -1, Multiple Attacks 5 damage -1;Cleric Single Attack 10.5 damage +0, Multiple Attacks 31 damage +1;Fighter Single Attack 14 damage +0, Multiple Attacks 56 damage +3 Special Attacks: None +0 Recovery: None +0 Special Defenses: None +0 Magic: Wizard, 9th level spells +3; Cleric, 9th level spells +3; Fighter +0 Magic Item Use: Wizard +3; Cleric +2; Fighter +1 Wizard CR = 10-1+0+0-1+0+0+0+3+3 = 14 Cleric CR = 10+1+0+1+1+0+0+0+3+2 = 18 Fighter CR = 10+2+0+2+3+0+0+0+0+1 = 18 Of course, this is just working on assumptions. Most of the time, this will not be the case, but it give you an idea how things work. Oftentimes wizards will have a +1 rating in hit points, and +0 in damage potential, which gives them a 17. Really comes down though, to how they are built, and how their various magic items affect the overall rating. This, more than ever, shows why players multi-class and go the prestige class route.
weasel0 02-07-07, 11:55 PM	anyone ever seen the insane method KenzerCo uses to calculate "Hackfactor" in Hackmaster? this nearly puts that method to shame. If anyone wants to know i can try and find it to cut and paste. No way am I typing it all out.
KendallDM 02-08-07, 12:03 AM	anyone ever seen the insane method KenzerCo uses to calculate "Hackfactor" in Hackmaster? this nearly puts that method to shame. If anyone wants to know i can try and find it to cut and paste. No way am I typing it all out. Heh, yeah, that's understood. Shades of Rolemaster. But meh, whatcha gonna do? Guessing and making up a CR often leads to either party death, or a too easy challenge. It takes me only a few seconds to rattle off any creature's CR if I have the statblock in front of me, but then again, I'm darn familiar with the method too :P. I only did it, because WotC wouldn't formulate a method, and would never admit to just guessing everything, then adding errata later. Reminds me of a certain software company based in Seattle ....
bonethug0108 02-08-07, 12:12 AM	Let's make some assumptions, Wizard Con 14, Cleric Con 16, Fighter Con 18, and they took the advanced in other ability scores. Let's also assume the AC for each class is equalized in essential ability, Wizard AC 18, Cleric AC 24, Fighter AC 29. Fighter advanced Strength to 23 (+6 damage). Last assumption, that the Wizard has alot of useful magic items, the Cleric half useful/half armor & weapons, and the Fighter mostly all armor & weapons. Base CR: 20 HD/2 = 10 (for all 3 classes) Hit Points: Wizard (4.5 avg) -1; Cleric (7.5 avg) +1, Fighter (9.5 avg) +2 Special Movement: None +0 Armor Class: Wizard 18 +0; Cleric 24 +1; Fighter 29 +2 Damage Potential: Wizard Single Attack 2.5 damage -1, Multiple Attacks 5 damage -1;Cleric Single Attack 10.5 damage +0, Multiple Attacks 31 damage +1;Fighter Single Attack 14 damage +0, Multiple Attacks 56 damage +3 Special Attacks: None +0 Recovery: None +0 Special Defenses: None +0 Magic: Wizard, 9th level spells +3; Cleric, 9th level spells +3; Fighter +0 Magic Item Use: Wizard +3; Cleric +2; Fighter +1 Wizard CR = 10-1+0+0-1+0+0+0+3+3 = 14 Cleric CR = 10+1+0+1+1+0+0+0+3+2 = 18 Fighter CR = 10+2+0+2+3+0+0+0+0+1 = 18 Of course, this is just working on assumptions. Most of the time, this will not be the case, but it give you an idea how things work. Oftentimes wizards will have a +1 rating in hit points, and +0 in damage potential, which gives them a 17. Really comes down though, to how they are built, and how their various magic items affect the overall rating. This, more than ever, shows why players multi-class and go the prestige class route. I see. Thanks.
KendallDM 02-08-07, 04:23 AM	Clerics, Druids, and Monks really clock out pretty high in comparison to the other classes. That's because these are the most useful overall classes in terms of combat/spellcasting/abilities. I see the Monk as nothing more than a base class that acts like a prestige class. The reason that wizards and sorcerers, as well as rogues, come out low in the CR system here, is that they are squishies that often can't take the same damage the other classes can.
Stormonu 02-08-07, 04:52 AM	One of the things I've been considering is breaking CR out by attack method. Different fighting styles tend to yeild different combat results. I find it somewhat difficult to put into words, but I'll put the basics here. melee CR/ranged CR/magic CR For example, an ogre would have a high melee CR, lower ranged CR and an almost neglible magic CR. Let's say melee CR 3/range CR 2/magic CR 1 (as its saves & hit points are high enough to resist some magical attacks). An enemy wizard would have a low melee CR, a low ranged CR and a fairly high magic CR. A 4th level wizard might look like melee CR 1/range CR 1/magic CR 4. A dragon would have a high melee CR, a moderate ranged CR (breath weapon) and a moderate-good magic CR (if it can cast spells). You'd have to look at how the party would most likely tackle the opponent to figure out it's CR for the party. This is all arbitrary, but I'm stating it here for example. For example, a group of four 4th level wizards (who have a scale of 1 melee/1 range/4 magic) would probably have a tough time meleeing or ranged attacking the ogre, but would dominate it with magic. A party of two 4th level fighters (4 melee/2 ranged/1 magic), a 4th level cleric (3 melee/2 ranged/3 magic) and a 4th level wizard (1 melee/1 magic/4 magic) could handle a CR 3 melee ((4+4+3+2) / 4 = 3), CR 2 ranged ((2+2+2+1) / 4 = 2), CR 2 magic ((1+1+3+4) / 4 = 2) creature. If they mix tactics, you're looking at an average CR 2 overall creature (3 melee + 2 ranged + 2 magic / 3 = 2). Note that the ogre above (4 melee/2 ranged/1 magic) would be an average CR 2 encounter for this group using mixed attacks. Rogues might be a little tricky to calculate as it would greatly depend on if they can use their sneak attack against the opponent in question. Hope that's not too muddled, though its a bit complex. However, I think the current CR system assumes a certain mix of tactics that just isn't always present in a group, and CR should account for a non-standard party mix.
angryman 02-08-07, 09:31 AM	I'd give high level spellcasting more +CR. Maybe half the maximum spell level +1, so then your wizard would be not CR 14, but CR 16.
KendallDM 02-08-07, 11:19 AM	I'd give high level spellcasting more +CR. Maybe half the maximum spell level +1, so then your wizard would be not CR 14, but CR 16. Yeah, I've tried a ton of methods to get this to work out. The problem is, you have to weight AC and general squishiness as well, and noone does that better than the wizard/sorcerer. I've tried several different approaches to get this to work out, but it just doesn't. As I said above, if the wizard comes out less squishy (higher CON) and has more AC available, he'll come in about the same level as the Cleric and Fighter. But let's face it, Clerics are the spellcasting tanks, and will likely come out higher rated no matter the approach. The Fighter comes out rated high because of non-squishiness (AC and HPs) and his pure damage dealing capacity (+3). I've even toyed with giving more weight to spell levels (say giving +4 or +5 for 8th and/or 9th level spells), but that not only screws it up for cleric/druid calculations, but for monsters as well. Given equal access, that shouldn't happen unless there is really an inherent weakness in the wizard/sorcerer... which there is. I hit die that is a d4 and an AC that doesn't allow the use of armor. Now that said, I often have wizards that cast extened mage armor for the day, then shield before a fight. So I weight that in my calculations. Also, it is common knowledge that you should put your 2nd highest stat in Constitution as a wizard, so that also could be weighted higher. But here's where it matters. Fighter has armor and weapons that are hard to take away (weapons with a disarm, and can still pick it back up), ditto the Cleric. The Wizard can be trivialized with one successful targeted dispel magic. Personally, the calculation works for me, I've been tweaking it for 3 years, but mostly over the past year its been used as is and has worked wonderfully. And yes, I've proved consistently that even powerful spells are no match for the inherent squishiness of the wizard and the sorcerer in my group. The comment I've heard most often? Fighter: "Blast them." Wizard: "Uh... if I blast them, and they don't die, they'll come after the biggest threat!" Of course, the fighters have learned to make a non-penetratable front line to keep the squishies safe, but sometimes they let that little tactic slip and "whoa Nelly!" Yeah, the squishies aren't very happen when that happens. Ranger abandoned the sorcerer in a room with a naga once, and the sorcerer bit it. Fun fun!
Nogard666 02-10-07, 10:32 AM	I would have to say that Monks can be some of the toughest characters at higher hit dice if you also allow for the making of custom magic items as per page 285 of the DMG. I seem to recall a 20HD Monk with AC 49 (50 vs dodge), 30 resistance to all base energy types, a flurry of blows that was +28/+28/+28/+23/+18, 193 HP, had saves of Fort +22, Reflex +24, Will +22, and 90 movement. And all of this was without adding in the items that must be used or activated like Potions. I used this character in a CR 20 "Crawl" were we just fought one CR 20 (using straight from MM1) monster, and then moved on to the next with everything refilled as a test to see how close CR 20 in the book was to 20th level characters. As I seem to recall the only thing that hurt this Monk was when the Balor died, which by the way that fight was not longer then 4 or 5 rounds even with the two of the Balors there. For those interested his items (and their costs to have custom items made at no markup over market value, assumed in gold) were: +5 Amulet of Natural Armor - 50,000 Bracers of Armor +8 - 64,000 +5 Gloves of the Mighty Fist - 150,000 Cloak of Energy Resistance +30 to Cold, Fire, Acid, and Electricity, Sonic, +5 all Saves - 142,000 Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 - 110,000 Ring of Protection +5 - 50,000 Ring of Freedom of Movement - 40,000 Boots of Dexterity - 36,000 Helm of Wisdom +6 - 36,000 Belt of Health +6 - 36,000 Oil of Magic Vestment +5 - 3,000 2x Potions of Displacement - 1,500 2x Potions of Magic Circle Against Evil - 1,500 2x Potions of Magic Circle Against Chaos - 1,500 Potion of Heroism - 750 6 Potions of Haste - 4,500 Heward's Handy Haversack - 2,000 2x Fly Potions - 1,500 And last a Torch of Continual Flame cast by a Cleric - 150 And after all of this I believe there was still some of that starting cash left over from what the DMG gives a 20th level character.
angryman 02-10-07, 11:06 AM	KendallDM I understand what you're getting at, however look at this. A fighter has 100 HP and an AC of 22. A wizard has 50 HP and an AC of 16. However, he is invisible, stoneskinned and flying. In a sense, the wizard's HP don't matter. He's got 10/adamantium DR, a 50% miss chance, is immune to non-flying melee creatures (which include most monsters) and enjoys a +2 to attack. I'm just saying that raw HP are not necessarily a big indication of power. In this example, casting 4th level spells (+2 CR) trumps most other +2 CR powers, such as having many more HP.
KendallDM 02-10-07, 01:20 PM	Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm only saying given even chances, that is, the wizards isn't prepped ahead of time, and the fighter isn't either, the wizard will have a hard time of it. Simply put, if that same fighter gets a full attack off on the wizard before the wizard spells up, he's toast. I understand your point. Spells are vastly superior to the abilities listed. That is why you take them into account IF they are prepped ahead of time. So in this instance, the wizard has DR, the equivalent of incorporeal and can't be seen (hmmm, I think natural invisibility should be added to the list, forgot that, thanks for bringing this to my attention), and flies. Against a standard fighter, he will smoke the fighter. Of course, that is making 2 assumptions, that the fighter gets nothing to prep (potions and what not), and that the fighter doesn't know when he's outdone and sticks to an unwinnable fight. Anyways, point taken. I've already said the system tends to break down at really high levels, though what you mention here isn't really high level. I've also said, the DM should be the final arbiter in the case of CR, since he wil understand best how his player characters, monsters, and any other factor determines the outcome of an encounter. Finally, I did admit that the system works only about 90% of the time. Despite all that, I'm willing to use this system over arbitrarily determining CR to be level (which takes only HD into account unfortunately.) Well, you get the idea. Every system has some flaws. It's how you deal with the flaws to get to a better solution. I say, let each DM make that decision for himself. BTW, I'd rate natural (or improved) invisibility +2 in Special Defenses.
SeptimusMagistos 02-10-07, 03:15 PM	Spell use should be pumped up.
Squirrelloid 03-02-07, 03:35 AM	The biggest problem I see with your numbers is that they don't take into account changing character abilities. Lets face it, you hand out a flat +3 to CR for 31 or greater AC, but by 20th level 31 AC is an autohit for most characters. Of course, any sort of variable parameters need to assume a target CR for the creature. Really what this means is that monsters of a given CR need level appropriate abilities for that CR. (Suggestion) Target CR = HD/2 == $CR (For NPCs treat Target CR = level) HD/hp: Do not modify for d8+Con bonus/level Modifications: d10 or d12 HD: +1 CR d6 or d4 HD: -1 CR Incapable of receiving a Con bonus to hp: -1 CR Total Con modifier +0 or lower but gets Con to hp: -1 CR Movement Modes Monsters are expected to have level-appropriate movement abilities. Do not modify if: Monster has access to level appropriate capabilities as defined below. Expected Party Capabilities or countermeasures: Climb by 3rd (+1 o/w) Swim by 5th level (+1 o/w unless characters have swim speeds themselves) Flight by 7th level (+2 o/w) Burrow or otherwise move through stone by 9th level (+1 o/w) Incorporeal by 9th level (+1 o/w) Ethereal by 9th level (+1 o/w) Other modifications: Substantially faster than 30' +10' per $CR/3: +1 (Substantially means at least +20 and probably more at higher levels. For fly speeds it probably means in excess of 100' at 7th, and increasingly higher at higher levels.) Ability Scores: Monsters of $CR are assumed to have level-appropriate stats. Assume monsters have approximately the same point buy the players are using and compare summed stat modifiers. (So, for 28PB most players will have ~+7, call it +6 for 25PB and +8 for 32PB - the following will use 28PB for calculations). Include all appropriate modifiers (size, etc...) in the total stat mods calculations. Do not modify for: Total summed stat mods ~= $CR+6 Modify: Every additional $CR/2 to summed stat mods, round up: +1 (Note, I'm vaguely guessing here) Every $CR fewer stat mods: -1 More than half of the positive contribution to summed stat mods is from one stat important to the monster: +1 Size: Especially large monsters are more difficult than smaller similar monsters. Monsters are assumed to be within a level appropriate range of size. Large: 5th (+1 before then) Huge: 10th (+1 before then) Gargantuan: 14th (+1 before then) Colossal: 16th (+1 before then) Use all that apply. Tiny: 4th (+1 before then) Diminuitive: 7th (+1 before then) Fine: 10th (+1 before then) use all that apply (Note, Swarms do not get size modifiers to CR). Feats and skills: Monsters are expected to have HD appropriate feats and skills. Skills are assumed to be 4+int/HD. Do not account for feats or skills in any other area - these bonuses are already accounted for via the feat and skill systems. Modifications: For every 2 bonus feats: +1 More skill points than expected: +1 Fewer skill points than expected OR spot and listen not in-class: -1 Defensive abilities: Monsters of $CR are assumed to have defensive abilities that are level-appropriate. Do not adjust CR for any of the following: AC ~= 15+$CR Total elemental Immunities and resistances: $CR/4 Resistance <= 2x$CR + 10 DR/x = $CR DR/- = $CR/2 SR = $CR+11 2 good saves Total defensive abilities (ignore saves and AC, but count everything that goes under SQ and defensive racial benefits, etc..., including stuff listed above) = $CR/2 Modify CR for defensive abilities as follows: Every 5 additional AC = +1 (Round fractions to the nearest - 2 additional AC no change, 3 additional AC -> +1) Every additional immunity or level appropriate resistance = +1 Every 10 additional to a resistance (Do not factor in after 10th level) = +1 Every elemental immunity before 6th level = +1 Every additional 2 DR/- = +1 Every additional 4 DR/x = +1 SR at $CR+16 = +1 3 good saves = +1 Every 2 additional total defensive abilities = +1 1 good save = -1 SR at $CR+6 = -1 For each fewer defensive ability = -1 For each 3 AC lower than appropriate = -1 Offensive abilities: Creatures are assumed to have level appropriate offenses as follows: BAB = Med Total SA = $CR/3 SA save DCs = 10+$CR+$CR/2 (the $CR term represents HD/2, the $CR/2 represents approximate expected attribute modifier) #Attacks: as per BAB OR $CR/4 natural attacks Special: Swarm type: +1 before 8th level. Modify as follows: BAB = Fighter: +1 BAB = Wizard: -1 (-2 if it has no non-attack roll offenses) Additional SA: +1 For each missing SA: -1 For every +2 to save DC: +1 For every -2 to save DC: -1 #Natural Attacks: +1 per additional (only count for creatures with natural weapons. If a creature uses manufactured *and* natural weapons, count all natural weapons as additional). Uses more than 2 manufactured weapons: +1 per additional weapon Note: Damage dealt per attack is assumed to be standard die size for natural weapon type, or standard by manufactured weapon type. Apply an ad hoc adjustment for especially weak or strong damage dealing capacity if melee attacks are an important offensive mechanism. Spellcasting and magic: Monsters are assumed to have access to magical abilities that are level-appropriate. Do not modify CR for the following: Spellcaster level = CR # Spell Progressions (Wizard spellcasting, Cleric spellcasting, etc..)= 1 OR # Spell-like abilities = $CR/2 Highest level Spell or Spell-like = $CR/2 (max 9) Spell Save DCs = 10+$CR (ignore if irrelevant to all spellcasting) Modify as follows: For every 2 spellcaster levels higher than expected: +1 For every 2 spellcaster levels lower than expected: -1 Spell or SLA higher level than expected: +difference squared (exp 6th had 9th -> 9-6=3. 3^2 = +6) Spell or SLA lower level than expected: -difference For each +2 Save DCs: +1 For each -2 Save DCs: -1 (if a creature has both spellcasting and SA save DCs, use only the higher one) For each additional spellcasting progression: +2 OR (use the following for non-casting monsters - ie, non-casters receive -$CR/2 total modifier) For every 2 additional Spell-like abilities: +1 For every 1 fewer Spell-like abilities: -1 Max negative modifier for spellcasting traits: -$CR/2 (ie, as a non-casting monster) Caveats: Obviously, the above could be gamed to make weak monsters of high CR because not all abilities of given types are equal. This system is proposed with the idea that the monster builder is actively trying to make a monster thats appropriately challenging for its CR. Ad hoc modifications totalling in the ballpark of +-$CR/3 are certainly appropriate for extreme cases (lots of weak SQs, and so forth).
Squirrelloid 03-02-07, 12:16 PM	A Random SRD monsters analyzed by the above metric: As an outsider, I'm going to treat it as an NPC. Hound Archon Target CR: 6 HD: no modifier Movement Modes: Teleport (ad hoc +1) Ability Scores: -7 (+5 compared to a +12 expected) Size: no modifier (med) Feats and Skills: +1 (skillpoints), no modifier (feats) Defensive Abilities: 19AC (no mod), 3 good saves (+1), DR 10/evil (+1), SR 16 (no mod), Imm Elec, MagCircVsEvil, Imm Petr, Scent, Darkvision, 7 total (+4) Offensive Abilities: Good BAB (+1), Aura of Menace (DC 16, -1), Change Shape, +1 natural attack (+1), 2 Total Spellcasting: CL6 (no mod), 4 spell-likes (no mod), Spell Level 2 (-1), End result: CR7 Listed CR: 4 Note that this is one of those monster types that you expect to fail to match up under my metric - it has so many abilities for so few hp that its stretching the bounds of any plausibly rigorous CR system. This is a great example of poor monster design. (Also note that Change Shape is amazingly awesome, and generally insufficiently used by DMs). Later I'll have to do one that one might expect to come close, rather than one thats seemingly actively bent on not even being close.
Aryxbez 05-05-07, 03:04 PM	Interesting, although it looks like it would take a long time just to stat up the CR of the creature. It looks like a good method to use when creating a monster however. also I always thought the normal CR system worked, this somewhat worries me. Also what of High levels?
KendallDM 05-06-07, 07:03 PM	Interesting, although it looks like it would take a long time just to stat up the CR of the creature. It looks like a good method to use when creating a monster however. also I always thought the normal CR system worked, this somewhat worries me. Also what of High levels? Problem with the core CR system is there is no "method" to determine it, just alot of speculation, guesswork, and intuition. It requires a bit of testing to make sure that the CR is correct. Unfortunately, at high levels the CR system represented here breaks down, UNLESS you go with the way the 3.5 system works, which gives out alot of magical items, then it can even out some. The other unfortunate thing is that this system is not 100% accurate, and still requires some intuition, but at least it can give you a ballpark figure to work from. IMHO, all systems have flaws, but the flaws in this one only really make themselves a nuisance at higher levels. I'm sure it could be fixed, but I don't run high level things enough to fix it myself. Once you get used to this system though, you can figure out a CR in less than a minute.
Aryxbez 05-06-07, 07:16 PM	I doubt the last part, I would have to remember all those abilities, and then what Increase and Decrease, seems it would take me twenty minutes to a hour just to figure CR's for creatures. Also another thing I am unsure if I should use this is for two reasons 1.My game is currently low-magic, the rules I use for low-magic will most likely not work with yours. 2.Since it apparently is not that reliable at High levels, of which CR adjustments are at it's most important. I want to be able to run a game to 20th level. Perhaps I should try it for myself and see if the CR's match up, to say a creature like the ogre.
Aryxbez 05-07-07, 11:31 PM	Kendall, I had compared your system to a Minotaur, I am guessing I am not using your system right but this is what I got. CR evaluation: 7-8 Base(1/2 HD)=+3 HP=+1 AC=0? attacks:Axe 2/atks=49 avg,1/atk=19 super Gore=24 damage potential=+2 with multiple atks Pow charge=+1? cunning=? Here is the link for the Minotaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm) in the SRD: Also your guide for CR does not cover Extraordinary abilities, which sounds like it is pretty important. Also unless I did the math wrong, there is no way a minotaur is a CR 7 or even a 8, as a minotaur would get massacred at those levels. At least I would believe so. Just so you know, I am not putting the hate upon your system,In fact I hope this system will work out so that I can create creatures without fear. I will now use this system to try and figure the CR of a created creature, pretty much the metroid.
Lina_Inverse 05-07-07, 11:56 PM	Wizard CR = 10-1+0+0-1+0+0+0+3+3 = 14 Cleric CR = 10+1+0+1+1+0+0+0+3+2 = 18 Fighter CR = 10+2+0+2+3+0+0+0+0+1 = 18 And this shows how flawed your system must be. A wizard is much stronger than a fighter as an opponent for a group of PCs, yet you rate his CR higher.
KendallDM 05-08-07, 02:46 AM	Kendall, I had compared your system to a Minotaur, I am guessing I am not using your system right but this is what I got. CR evaluation: 7-8 Base(1/2 HD)=+3 HP=+1 AC=0? attacks:Axe 2/atks=49 avg,1/atk=19 super Gore=24 damage potential=+2 with multiple atks Pow charge=+1? cunning=? Here is the link for the Minotaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm) in the SRD: Also your guide for CR does not cover Extraordinary abilities, which sounds like it is pretty important. Also unless I did the math wrong, there is no way a minotaur is a CR 7 or even a 8, as a minotaur would get massacred at those levels. At least I would believe so. Just so you know, I am not putting the hate upon your system,In fact I hope this system will work out so that I can create creatures without fear. I will now use this system to try and figure the CR of a created creature, pretty much the metroid. Minotaur CR 4 Base CR (HD/2): 3 Avg HP (39/6=6.5): -1 [Minotaur is a monster HD, and must get to 8.5 to get a +1, and actually get a -1 for being too weak in hit points for a monster gainged up on by 4 characters] Damage (Single 20 [Powerful Charge], Multiple 41): +2 [Here you can see that Powerful Charge is included, since in essence, the ability is nothing more than a single attack for damage in place of normal attacks, thus it is listed here] The special quality of natural cunning makes no significant impact on combat, i.e. making the monster more challenging, and so its not included. Obviously, I can't take into account every single special ability of creatures, you just have to equate it to something that is currently in the list to get an idea how it fits. As you see, this comes out to be the same rating as the book has. BTW, I did Ogre in an earlier post above to show how it works out.
KendallDM 05-08-07, 02:55 AM	And this shows how flawed your system must be. A wizard is much stronger than a fighter as an opponent for a group of PCs, yet you rate his CR higher. There are no perfect systems, nor is there any reason to believe that you can make it perfect. If you read what I posted in that post, I conceded that the wizard came out a bit low, and I also admitted that the system breaks down at high levels. Depending on circumstances, if they are ideal for the PCs, then yes, a wizard would be stronger (again, I admit that), but is less than ideal circumstances, which tends often to be more likely, I would respectfully disagree with your second statement. So far, up to level 12 PCs, I have not had any problems with the CR system I have produced above. As they get higher in level, I will have to do a little more to make it work out, and maybe then I can smooth it out. BTW, in the example above, I also mentioned that a properly created wizard would actually clock out at 17 (or even 18), but I still think squishiness is a major hinderance of a wizard (prepped wizards have to take into account their buffs that are in place BEFORE combat, and it this case the wizard would come out much higher in CR if he had improved invisibility, stoneskin, and fly working at the time the battle starts, essentially moving him up another +3).
Squirrelloid 05-08-07, 03:10 AM	There are no perfect systems, nor is there any reason to believe that you can make it perfect. If you read what I posted in that post, I conceded that the wizard came out a bit low, and I also admitted that the system breaks down at high levels. Depending on circumstances, if they are ideal for the PCs, then yes, a wizard would be stronger (again, I admit that), but is less than ideal circumstances, which tends often to be more likely, I would respectfully disagree with your second statement. So far, up to level 12 PCs, I have not had any problems with the CR system I have produced above. As they get higher in level, I will have to do a little more to make it work out, and maybe then I can smooth it out. BTW, in the example above, I also mentioned that a properly created wizard would actually clock out at 17 (or even 18), but I still think squishiness is a major hinderance of a wizard (prepped wizards have to take into account their buffs that are in place BEFORE combat, and it this case the wizard would come out much higher in CR if he had improved invisibility, stoneskin, and fly working at the time the battle starts, essentially moving him up another +3). Ultimately the problem with your system is that it doesn't expect monsters to get better at higher levels. 55 damage at 10th level is pretty scary. 55 damage at 20th level is expected. It shouldn't increase the monster's CR at all - in fact, it should probably decrease it if that's all the damage output it has. Lets be honest here: PC hp:HD ratio increases, their damage/round increases, their damage/hit increases, etc... Shouldn't we expect monsters to do the same? For example, averaging 12.5hp/HD is not unreasonable at 20th level like it might be at 10th level. Its certainly not worth +3 to their CR when the players are throwing down a couple hundred damage per round. And 31 AC is pathetically low at 20th level, but you still hand out a +3 CR for it. The only workable formula for CR would have to be one where the expectation of what a monster of CR N brings to the table is dependent on the value of N - the system I proposed is of the right form, but the numbers might be off. The other problem, of course, is in fitting the system, as there are a lot of poorly built and therefor poorly CRed monsters (like many fae) which have inappropriately low HD and inappropriately powerful spells or spell-likes, which make them hit like a CR N+2 and take damage like a CR N-2. That's just bad monster design, as the combat comes down to who wins initiative or gets surprise. And that's just stupid. But a static number system like yours will only work within a relatively small level range (wherever it was designed for), and will take more and more fudging to make it work outside of that range until you're back to freeform guessing as to what CR is. You can't treat a CR10 monster the same as a CR1 monster in terms of damage potential, hp/HD, AC, or any of their other statistics: the party has improved and you have to assume monsters will also improve.
KendallDM 05-10-07, 02:53 AM	Well, first of all, I didn't say my system wasn't flawed, and I did make it clear it breaks down at high levels. Here's the thing, I don't run a high-powered purely all inclusive splatbook D&D campaign. So, the system I have here works for me, and for my game. Mind you, I think it also comes pretty darn close to the monsters in the books as far as CRs they have, and exposes some of the poor CR choices made by WotC. That said.... The best thing I can say is this provides other DMs a good start to making a similar system for their own games and getting appropriate CRs for their critters. This is here to help those who are unable to fathom the CR system, and give them a start to making it work better and more fluidly for them. Your system works for you, mine works for me. Then again, I have players with characters that start at level 1 and none have yet crested level 13. I don't do high level stuff, and I run a medium magic campaign (where most of the magic is spells, and items are on the low end). You just have to decide what works for your game, and make it fit to your standards of play. In the end, we're all just trying to have fun, and eliminate the headaches. :P
vonklaude 05-10-07, 06:18 AM	Reminds me of Runequest monster ratings. Nice.