Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ossyrian Ush'Bel 02-27-06, 02:57 PM	Just came up in my campaign. I currently run a campaign for 5 people, 2 14th and 3 13th, BUT one of my former campaigners who moved and is returning would like to rejoin and there is another who is interested and I wanted to get some advice. First off I have no problem adjust the CR for a group of 5, I usually just go with things that are CR 14 to balance out the extra person. Now, assuming I let all of them in the game, I will have 2 14th level, and 5 13th level PC's-how does one properly assign challenges that will still be challenges, but not TPK's? Should I settle at a CR 15? 16? Should it just not be done. Anyways just wanted some peoples thoughts on how to mitigate the impact upon my campaign.
Swiftblade 02-27-06, 03:16 PM	Typically, I try to keep my groups grounded on how many people can play, I usually don't allow more then 5 or 6 players, and only 6 if I have a solid group, people coming and going can cause some serious problems. Also make sure they all get along, this can cause problems. Another thing is the larger the group the slower the game time because everyone needs to take their turn. Another thing to watch out for is if you have roleplayers with hack and slashers, this causes friction because the roleplayers like myself like to take time and do time consuming things, like my wizards and rogues, but the fighters and barbarians just like to buy stuff and kill stuff generally. Unless there is lots of alcohol, then everything works out well, a drunk barbarian with lots of people in a bar is a happy barbarian. So it can work but it will take a lot of work and a lot of patience on your groups part.
Ossyrian Ush'Bel 02-27-06, 04:21 PM	Well I know all of the people save one of the new additions and we are all ROLE players and not so much ROLL players. The unknown has gamed before with one of my players and he vouches for him and that is good enough for me. My biggest problem I guess with a group that size is assigning the correct level of challenges. I can handle the extra people, we have set a time limit on everyones actions so the combat flows fairly well(mainly because of all the casters in my group). I also encourage my players to have everything rolled and ready when it comes to their turn so that it doesn't break stride. My players are honest enough not to fudge their rolls for fear of the angry DM, but I just want to make sure that the challenges I assign are still taxing enough, but I am not setting them up for a TPK or a powder puff with every encounter.
Gnarl 02-27-06, 04:24 PM	CR 15-16 should be the average fight for a party that big. But be very careful not to put a single opponent against a large party. Usually, in order to make a decent challenge against such a large group, a single opponent will be dealing a massive amount of damage, probably killing a guy per round. Well maybe it's not as true at those levels.
Ossyrian Ush'Bel 02-27-06, 05:23 PM	That is pretty much what I figured. If 2 14's and 3 13's is a CR 15(what I have been playing) 2 more 13's should equate to an extra CR. Also depending upon what the newcomers are wanting to play will make a big difference. I know one of them is playing a rog/wiz/arcane archer that he played previously in this campaign, the other....I suppose we shall just have to see. Thanks for the advice. Any other thoughts out there. Do 2 extra 13th level characters for a total of 2-14th and 5 13th equate to a CR 15 encounter?
Rocketboy13 02-27-06, 06:30 PM	You should not focus on CR per say, but more on EL. Once you hit a group of that size a single monster, regardless of CR, will rarely if ever last longer than 4 or five rounds, because of the sheer number of actions that the players get to pull off per round. Try for groups of opponents that attack collectively with specialized tactics (like a transmuter buffing up the tank, or the illusionist making all of the opponents invisible), don't hesitate to use tactics that temporarily remove people from the action (hold person or tangle foot bags). And be more inclined to make them consume their resources (Spells that turn them to stone, spells that damage gear, opponents that arn't finiky about sundering things), you have to where down their collective power so that they remain vulnerable. Minions with varieties of resistances (to keep from being wiped out by single spells), special movement restrictions, huge numbers of traps and hazards on the combat field. Then again with that many people around the table, you should not feel restricted in the use of puzzles, they may get solved very quickly by the collective brain power.
Ossyrian Ush'Bel 02-28-06, 01:41 PM	I usually throw a mixed bag at them when I can, having learned long ago, as have my arch villains, that this group with its various magical talents can pretty much mop up the resistance. And single monsters better have a CR 2-3 higher than that of the group if they want to survive longer than 2 rounds(found this out with a CR 15 red dragon vs a CR 13 group....needless to say I might as well have been throwing pixie dust at them and saved myself the trouble of rolling up treasure). Has anyone run a group of this size before? If so I would be interested to get your input on the effect of this many players had upon your campaign and your opinions on it(i.e.-would you do it again?).
Rocketboy13 02-28-06, 07:13 PM	Has anyone run a group of this size before? If so I would be interested to get your input on the effect of this many players had upon your campaign and your opinions on it(i.e.-would you do it again?). I have, truth be told the only real difference is the length of the combat encounters. Player NPC interaction is also a little weird, and often times hectic as everyone talks at once. The real problem is getting everyone some face time, the attention is so divided that often people have a hard time interacting at all in the game world. When you have this many players you have to start playing it like an episode of Justice League Unlimited. Have it some only 4 or 5 players show up each week, have that be an epsiode, make sure everyone can pick up on the overall plot of the season, and then make sure everyone is there for the climactic season finally.
K_Beast 02-28-06, 07:26 PM	Wow - 2 @ 14th level and 5 at 13th level is almost the equivalent of having two distinct four-person 13th level parties! You are a braver DM than I. When I'm running for more or less than the 'standard' four person party, I always just figure out the encounter levels by normalizing their levels for a 4-person party. Add all the levels together and then divide by four and then let that guide the EL (not CR) that I aim for. Of course, in your case that puts your 'normalized' party level at around 23... That sounds big to me, but I would expect a party of 7 characters, even if they were all only 12th level to crush most EL15 encounters. You've got to balance things out though, they won't have the saves or attack bonuses to really match up against single creatures with that kind of CR (Tarrasque, anyone?) I would probably play it safe, start off at whatever feels right and then if they mop the floor with the bad guys and don't even get scratched - just ratchet it up until they squeal. :)
rjmgsouthard 02-28-06, 08:03 PM	I am dealing with the same thing. I currently have 7 players in my game. Three 4th level and four 3rd level. There is also a chance of one more joining. Now I know all the arguements of large groups and for the most part I agree. Four players is a very good number and 7 or 8 is huge. I live in a area where gamers are few and far between. Myself and a good friend have been trying to get a game together here for the last five years. About six months ago we managed to get 5 people together on a once-a-month basis. (All of us are marrieds with children, jobs, and very busy schedules.) More keeping showing up. I hate to turn people away when we are having so much fun. There is momentum and no one has complained about pace. So far things are going very well. Yet my biggest problem comes in selecting encounters.
Mentar 02-28-06, 11:04 PM	I am currently a player in a campain with a few more people then that. We play at a local game store, so it's mostly open table, anyone can join. There are 9 players that show up every week, missing maybe one session every other month. There are 2 that show up maybe 3/4 of the time, and 3 that might show up once a month if that. That is not including the DM. I have been considering running a game, in order to split the group down a bit, but watching the madhouse that is a gaming session I sometimes wonder. If I take the bad players it will help the good players and the other DM, if I take the good players it will be a pain for the other DM, though possibly less of a pain then it currently is. If I try to split good and bad how much will actually be acomplished by either group? By bad players I mean more then just ineffective or bash everything, I mean the guys that talk loudly about unrelated concerns while we are trying to gather information or while the DM is trying to relate something. As it stands, one of the people who started out as a "bad player" is really starting to evolve, he tries to quiet down the others so he can hear, actually listens to what is going on before acting, etc. This is part of what is keeping me from starting another game, I want to see if the others will learn as well, yet I know that one will not if all he does is switch DMs. As for CR vs party of 12 (adv level 3) characters, we started out facing creatures 2-3 CR over the party level, leading to many deaths (see bad players above). Now it's mostly CR 2 to 5 monsters, advanced by HD to make them challenging. Our party adverage is 2 deaths per boss fight.
Ossyrian Ush'Bel 03-01-06, 10:41 AM	Well talked to my group the other night. I have explained to them the situation and asked them their opinion, pointing out that the addition will equate to tougher encounters and in all likelyhood an increased chance of death and dismemberment. I also ran the idea of ending the current campaign and splitting it into 2 campaigns set along the same lines in the same world-AN overwhelming NO from the group as they are all very involved in the storyline and do not want to disrupt the current story. They voted unanomously for the increased likelihood of death and dismemberment. Kinda nice to know that your group likes the campaign enough to risk death and dismemberment in order to continue playing :D
Clawhound 03-01-06, 02:36 PM	I find that my 7 person 9th level party fights about 2-3 CR's above their level. I also max out the HP's on most opponents. They still don't last long. It is important to remember that they have a higher offense than a four-person 9th level part, but their defense is not better. There's a point where the opponents just get overwhelming if you scale up too far.
Ossyrian Ush'Bel 03-01-06, 03:14 PM	It is important to remember that they have a higher offense than a four-person 9th level part, but their defense is not better. There's a point where the opponents just get overwhelming if you scale up too far. This is a very good point that I really had not considered much before. But that is a statement that I think gets overlooked alot when considering things such as this. So maybe maxing HP is a good place to start rather than jacking up the CR to astronomical levels. Good point that gives me something else to consider.
Gnarl 03-01-06, 05:23 PM	This is a very good point that I really had not considered much before. But that is a statement that I think gets overlooked alot when considering things such as this. So maybe maxing HP is a good place to start rather than jacking up the CR to astronomical levels. Good point that gives me something else to consider. In my opinion, that's not a good idea. You're making tougher challenges for the same amount of xp. Don't forget that in a party of 7, xp for an encounter will be divided by 7. So if you want your players to gain a little xp, you'll have to increase the CR of the fights. I'll try wording this properly in english. Calculate the amount of experience point awarded to each player in a 4 player party for an encounter EL 13/14 (since your average level is 13/14). Look at the EL encounter needed to obtain the same amount of experience points per encounter with a party of 7. That's the EL of the fights you probably should be tossing at your players. At least this should be a good guideline.