Creating Level Adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creating Level Adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Troll3
04-09-07, 04:14 PM I am running a game that allows players to play monsters. I have a player that wants to play a Megaraptor (Dinosaur). I suggested that he play one that was Awakened by a druid at birth (foregoing the +2 HD so he doesn't have to waste them on Animal HD). The campaign is currently 16th Level, so he would have 8HD of Animal, leaving 8HD to spend on Character Levels/ECL. The problem is that there is no ECL for a Megaraptor. It is normally for Sentient and reasonably humanoid crearures, but I can alter classess to avoid the No Fine Manipulation problem (for example, instead of a Ranger's Two-Weapon Fighting I would give him Multiattack).
Given this situation, does anyone know how to cost the ECL for a creature that doesn't normally have it? Is it possible to have a Negative ECL (possible like CR being +1 per/4 HD added to an improved Monster)? Any help, or suggestions would be appreciated.
Seeker95
04-09-07, 04:50 PM Based on its massive strength, con and wisdom benefits (all scores are above average), I would make a non-awakened megaraptor a +2 to +3 LA. Add in the awaken, and you're easily at a +4.

Seriously. Make this into a barbarian and it is unstoppable.
Troll3
04-12-07, 09:36 AM I was thinking the No Fine Manipulation downside of a Megaraptor would knock some of the Level Adjustment down. He can't have a magic weapon, and armor must be crafted, and put on, and taken off him. Low INT/WIS/CHA may be balanced with high STR/CON, but I don't think that would bump the Level Adjustment up more than +1. I'm comparing to a Dawrf, with a list of abilities, or a Human with an extra feat and skill points. The Megaraptor only has Str/Con and a Natural Attack, one that requires someone else to cast Superior Magic Fang on to be effective in a 16th level campaign.
Seeker95
04-12-07, 10:02 AM I was thinking the No Fine Manipulation downside of a Megaraptor would knock some of the Level Adjustment down.I disagree. No fine manipulation just means he won't try to use fine manipulation elements. He can't have a magic weapon, and armor must be crafted, and put on, and taken off him.So he plays a monk or a barbarian.Low INT/WIS/CHA may be balanced with high STR/CON, but I don't think that would bump the Level Adjustment up more than +1.Except they don't have low INT/WIS/CHA.Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10They have a low Intelligence. Charisma is average, and Wisdom is HIGH. And you're suggesting he play an awakened megaraptor, giving him a high intelligence as well.

It already has +8 racial benefits to Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.
It has +6 natural armor.
It has a movement of 60'
It can make a full attack in a charge.
It has phenomenal Strength and Constitution.
It has four natural attack forms by default.

This is a perfect race for playing a monk.
celtredleg
04-12-07, 10:14 AM DOnt think of it as not screwing the player, think of is as not screwing the rest. If you dont get LA high enough, that thing is going to dominate.

Take it from someone who has messed up LA before, to high is better than to low. Unless you make him actual act stupid, that low INT is not going to hurt at all.

Or, just let him be either a warhulk, or frenzied berzerker. Then LA and stats wont matter.
Troll3
04-13-07, 05:57 PM Thanks for the advice everyone. I am thinking of the following now:
I looked at him again and compared him to the other players, and to a fighter of the same level. Since he is a magical beast he is just about like a fighter, minus the bonus feats (HD: D10; BA As Fighter). Awkened at birth (ignore the +2HD from awaken, so he pays for 8 Level of Magical Beast). Built in natural weapons probably balance out against no fine manipulation. Ability bonuses and penalties are from Large Size, which has its own disadvantages built in. (it uses the Elite Array altered with +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, -8 Int; making it net +2 in abilities, and it adds 2 to them through advancing to 8th level/hd). I am assuming that he rolls his own Str, Dex, Con, Wis Abilities, not the given ones in the book, with only 3D6 for Int and Cha. I made 10+1D3 instead of rolling.
Given that he does get +2 over his elite array, and it has scent, low-light vision, natural weapons, I was going to settle on:
Level Adjustment +2.
So he would have 8HD of Magical Beast and 6 Levels of probably Fighter, with 2 spent on Level Adjustment = 16th Level.
It can't get worse than the Grimlock Rogue, Ogre-Mage Monk, or Troll Fighter already in the party!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Troll3 04-09-07, 04:14 PM	I am running a game that allows players to play monsters. I have a player that wants to play a Megaraptor (Dinosaur). I suggested that he play one that was Awakened by a druid at birth (foregoing the +2 HD so he doesn't have to waste them on Animal HD). The campaign is currently 16th Level, so he would have 8HD of Animal, leaving 8HD to spend on Character Levels/ECL. The problem is that there is no ECL for a Megaraptor. It is normally for Sentient and reasonably humanoid crearures, but I can alter classess to avoid the No Fine Manipulation problem (for example, instead of a Ranger's Two-Weapon Fighting I would give him Multiattack). Given this situation, does anyone know how to cost the ECL for a creature that doesn't normally have it? Is it possible to have a Negative ECL (possible like CR being +1 per/4 HD added to an improved Monster)? Any help, or suggestions would be appreciated.
Seeker95 04-09-07, 04:50 PM	Based on its massive strength, con and wisdom benefits (all scores are above average), I would make a non-awakened megaraptor a +2 to +3 LA. Add in the awaken, and you're easily at a +4. Seriously. Make this into a barbarian and it is unstoppable.
Troll3 04-12-07, 09:36 AM	I was thinking the No Fine Manipulation downside of a Megaraptor would knock some of the Level Adjustment down. He can't have a magic weapon, and armor must be crafted, and put on, and taken off him. Low INT/WIS/CHA may be balanced with high STR/CON, but I don't think that would bump the Level Adjustment up more than +1. I'm comparing to a Dawrf, with a list of abilities, or a Human with an extra feat and skill points. The Megaraptor only has Str/Con and a Natural Attack, one that requires someone else to cast Superior Magic Fang on to be effective in a 16th level campaign.
Seeker95 04-12-07, 10:02 AM	I was thinking the No Fine Manipulation downside of a Megaraptor would knock some of the Level Adjustment down.I disagree. No fine manipulation just means he won't try to use fine manipulation elements. He can't have a magic weapon, and armor must be crafted, and put on, and taken off him.So he plays a monk or a barbarian.Low INT/WIS/CHA may be balanced with high STR/CON, but I don't think that would bump the Level Adjustment up more than +1.Except they don't have low INT/WIS/CHA.Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10They have a low Intelligence. Charisma is average, and Wisdom is HIGH. And you're suggesting he play an awakened megaraptor, giving him a high intelligence as well. It already has +8 racial benefits to Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. It has +6 natural armor. It has a movement of 60' It can make a full attack in a charge. It has phenomenal Strength and Constitution. It has four natural attack forms by default. This is a perfect race for playing a monk.
celtredleg 04-12-07, 10:14 AM	DOnt think of it as not screwing the player, think of is as not screwing the rest. If you dont get LA high enough, that thing is going to dominate. Take it from someone who has messed up LA before, to high is better than to low. Unless you make him actual act stupid, that low INT is not going to hurt at all. Or, just let him be either a warhulk, or frenzied berzerker. Then LA and stats wont matter.
Troll3 04-13-07, 05:57 PM	Thanks for the advice everyone. I am thinking of the following now: I looked at him again and compared him to the other players, and to a fighter of the same level. Since he is a magical beast he is just about like a fighter, minus the bonus feats (HD: D10; BA As Fighter). Awkened at birth (ignore the +2HD from awaken, so he pays for 8 Level of Magical Beast). Built in natural weapons probably balance out against no fine manipulation. Ability bonuses and penalties are from Large Size, which has its own disadvantages built in. (it uses the Elite Array altered with +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, -8 Int; making it net +2 in abilities, and it adds 2 to them through advancing to 8th level/hd). I am assuming that he rolls his own Str, Dex, Con, Wis Abilities, not the given ones in the book, with only 3D6 for Int and Cha. I made 10+1D3 instead of rolling. Given that he does get +2 over his elite array, and it has scent, low-light vision, natural weapons, I was going to settle on: Level Adjustment +2. So he would have 8HD of Magical Beast and 6 Levels of probably Fighter, with 2 spent on Level Adjustment = 16th Level. It can't get worse than the Grimlock Rogue, Ogre-Mage Monk, or Troll Fighter already in the party!