Crit immunities...War shaper/Undeads [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crit immunities...War shaper/Undeads [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ragentx
05-09-07, 07:12 PM ok I DM a game where just about every PC is immune to critical hits. How does crits with magical items say Vorpal work against fortification?
How for example does Vorpal work against a War shapers immunity to crits... does it still cut off their head but they are alive because their brain is in another part of their body... can they put their head back on? Can undeads who survive without their heads still re-attach their heads?
Optimized_Commoner
05-09-07, 08:56 PM ok I DM a game where just about every PC is immune to critical hits. How does crits with magical items say Vorpal work against fortification?

If they're immune to critical hits, then the critical hits (and all secondary effects) do not take place. You could always describe the undead's head being severed by a Vorpal sword, but if they're undead then they probably don't need it. How you describe it is up to you, but ruleswise, nothing should happen (they're still hit for normal damage and normal effects though).
Vaelan
05-09-07, 09:06 PM If they're immune to critical hits, then the critical hits (and all secondary effects) do not take place.
Many secondary effects explicitly state that they take place even if the target is immune to critical hits.
Optimized_Commoner
05-09-07, 09:15 PM Many secondary effects explicitly state that they take place even if the target is immune to critical hits.

Then those particular ones which override the general rule, function as they specify of course.
SephDragoon
05-09-07, 11:21 PM Vorpal is one of them, which specifies that golems and most undead that don't need heads aren't effected. Vampires and most other creatures (vampires being normally effected by crits) are.

So no, fortification doesn't sound like it will help at all.
ArcTan
05-09-07, 11:25 PM If they're immune to critical hits, then the critical hits (and all secondary effects) do not take place. You could always describe the undead's head being severed by a Vorpal sword, but if they're undead then they probably don't need it. How you describe it is up to you, but ruleswise, nothing should happen (they're still hit for normal damage and normal effects though).

Not true. Vorpal's description specifically says it does function on a confirmed natural 20 (*not* a crit -- if the weapon crits on 19, vorpal doesn't occur) and gives examples of doing so on creatures like Vampires and Iron Golems, both of which are immune to crits. It also specifies that even though Vampires are immune to crits, they're still instantly killed by decapitation -- the DM is free to ad hoc other creatures that should similarly be affected by decapitation.

But vorpal always works if the target has a head. It specifically mentions that it works on Golems' heads, even though Golems are unaffected by the loss of their heads.
ArcTan
05-09-07, 11:28 PM Vorpal is one of them, which specifies that golems and most undead that don't need heads aren't effected. Vampires and most other creatures (vampires being normally effected by crits) are.

Actually, Vampires have all Undead traits and are immune to crits. They just aren't immune to beheading (their entry specifically mentions beheading a vampire and stuffing its mouth full of holy wafers as a way to kill it).

So no, fortification doesn't sound like it will help at all.

I would similarly rule that "immune to crits" and "immune to beheading" are two separate things, and heavy fortification doesn't say anywhere that it makes you immune to beheading.
Optimized_Commoner
05-10-07, 02:44 AM Not true. Vorpal's description specifically says it does function on a confirmed natural 20 (*not* a crit -- if the weapon crits on 19, vorpal doesn't occur) and gives examples of doing so on creatures like Vampires and Iron Golems, both of which are immune to crits. It also specifies that even though Vampires are immune to crits, they're still instantly killed by decapitation -- the DM is free to ad hoc other creatures that should similarly be affected by decapitation.

But vorpal always works if the target has a head. It specifically mentions that it works on Golems' heads, even though Golems are unaffected by the loss of their heads.

I could have checked that, but I assumed the OP knew what they were talking about. If Vorpal isn't critically triggered then it has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said.

I don't use Vorpal weapons in my game and I would strongly recommend other people shouldn't either. However this isn't what the thread is about, so I will keep my peace.
Zherog
05-10-07, 10:59 AM As far as your party's warshaper goes: Remember, of course, that he/she only gains immunity to crits while in an alternate form. When in his/her natural form, none of the warshaper's benefits apply.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ragentx 05-09-07, 07:12 PM	ok I DM a game where just about every PC is immune to critical hits. How does crits with magical items say Vorpal work against fortification? How for example does Vorpal work against a War shapers immunity to crits... does it still cut off their head but they are alive because their brain is in another part of their body... can they put their head back on? Can undeads who survive without their heads still re-attach their heads?
Optimized_Commoner 05-09-07, 08:56 PM	ok I DM a game where just about every PC is immune to critical hits. How does crits with magical items say Vorpal work against fortification? If they're immune to critical hits, then the critical hits (and all secondary effects) do not take place. You could always describe the undead's head being severed by a Vorpal sword, but if they're undead then they probably don't need it. How you describe it is up to you, but ruleswise, nothing should happen (they're still hit for normal damage and normal effects though).
Vaelan 05-09-07, 09:06 PM	If they're immune to critical hits, then the critical hits (and all secondary effects) do not take place. Many secondary effects explicitly state that they take place even if the target is immune to critical hits.
Optimized_Commoner 05-09-07, 09:15 PM	Many secondary effects explicitly state that they take place even if the target is immune to critical hits. Then those particular ones which override the general rule, function as they specify of course.
SephDragoon 05-09-07, 11:21 PM	Vorpal is one of them, which specifies that golems and most undead that don't need heads aren't effected. Vampires and most other creatures (vampires being normally effected by crits) are. So no, fortification doesn't sound like it will help at all.
ArcTan 05-09-07, 11:25 PM	If they're immune to critical hits, then the critical hits (and all secondary effects) do not take place. You could always describe the undead's head being severed by a Vorpal sword, but if they're undead then they probably don't need it. How you describe it is up to you, but ruleswise, nothing should happen (they're still hit for normal damage and normal effects though). Not true. Vorpal's description specifically says it does function on a confirmed natural 20 (not a crit -- if the weapon crits on 19, vorpal doesn't occur) and gives examples of doing so on creatures like Vampires and Iron Golems, both of which are immune to crits. It also specifies that even though Vampires are immune to crits, they're still instantly killed by decapitation -- the DM is free to ad hoc other creatures that should similarly be affected by decapitation. But vorpal always works if the target has a head. It specifically mentions that it works on Golems' heads, even though Golems are unaffected by the loss of their heads.
ArcTan 05-09-07, 11:28 PM	Vorpal is one of them, which specifies that golems and most undead that don't need heads aren't effected. Vampires and most other creatures (vampires being normally effected by crits) are. Actually, Vampires have all Undead traits and are immune to crits. They just aren't immune to beheading (their entry specifically mentions beheading a vampire and stuffing its mouth full of holy wafers as a way to kill it). So no, fortification doesn't sound like it will help at all. I would similarly rule that "immune to crits" and "immune to beheading" are two separate things, and heavy fortification doesn't say anywhere that it makes you immune to beheading.
Optimized_Commoner 05-10-07, 02:44 AM	Not true. Vorpal's description specifically says it does function on a confirmed natural 20 (not a crit -- if the weapon crits on 19, vorpal doesn't occur) and gives examples of doing so on creatures like Vampires and Iron Golems, both of which are immune to crits. It also specifies that even though Vampires are immune to crits, they're still instantly killed by decapitation -- the DM is free to ad hoc other creatures that should similarly be affected by decapitation. But vorpal always works if the target has a head. It specifically mentions that it works on Golems' heads, even though Golems are unaffected by the loss of their heads. I could have checked that, but I assumed the OP knew what they were talking about. If Vorpal isn't critically triggered then it has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said. I don't use Vorpal weapons in my game and I would strongly recommend other people shouldn't either. However this isn't what the thread is about, so I will keep my peace.
Zherog 05-10-07, 10:59 AM	As far as your party's warshaper goes: Remember, of course, that he/she only gains immunity to crits while in an alternate form. When in his/her natural form, none of the warshaper's benefits apply.