Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dracon_Ian 10-16-06, 05:16 PM	If i roll a natural 20 on an attack roll (or a value in the critical damage range) do i automatically hit, or could a player get an AC that's too high to be hit (excluding roll modifires)?
Artector 10-16-06, 05:21 PM	Automatic Misses and Hits A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit. You always hit, but don't always crit on a 20.
Dracon_Ian 10-16-06, 05:23 PM	So does a crit always hit, or only a 20?
PhaedrusXY 10-16-06, 05:24 PM	So does a crit always hit, or only a 20?Just a 20...
Zherog 10-16-06, 06:33 PM	Just a 20 autohits, and it also threatens a critical. You then need to roll again and the second roll must also hit in order for the attack to be a critical. [contrived example] Bob the Fighter has a total attack modifier of +5. He's attacking a creature with a 26 AC, using his longsword (threat range 19-20). In round one, Bob rolls a 19. While this would normally "threaten" the attack doesn't beat the target's AC, so Bob misses. In round two, Bob gets even luckier and rolls a 20. Normally a 25 wouldn't hit, but a 20 on an attack roll (and saving throw) is an automatic success. It's also a threat, so Bob rolls to confirm the crit. Bob rolls another 19 - not enough to confirm the crit, so Bob only does his normal damage. Next round, Bob again rolls a 20. He rolls again to confirm the crit, and this time rolls another 20. The critical is confirmed; Bob can roll his damage twice, and his DM should check his dice to make sure they're not loaded. :D [/contrived example]
Seeker95 10-16-06, 08:03 PM	So does a crit always hit, or only a 20?Yes, a crit always hits. Or rather, for something to "be" a crit, it must first hit. :D
GreyLord 10-16-06, 08:28 PM	That's true. However, I've found it really speeds up combat to do away with the second roll and if the first falls in the crit threat range, just count it as a crit. Use it both ways however, so it's made some rather spectacular hits against players too. Plus it makes certain magic weapons all the more useful and exciting for players to find. Houserule ONLY however on my part when I DM.
KurenaiYami 10-16-06, 08:30 PM	That's true. However, I've found it really speeds up combat to do away with the second roll and if the first falls in the crit threat range, just count it as a crit. Use it both ways however, so it's made some rather spectacular hits against players too. Plus it makes certain magic weapons all the more useful and exciting for players to find. Houserule ONLY however on my part when I DM. People duel wield Keen Rapiers much in your campaigns?
Artector 10-16-06, 08:52 PM	That's true. However, I've found it really speeds up combat to do away with the second roll and if the first falls in the crit threat range, just count it as a crit. Use it both ways however, so it's made some rather spectacular hits against players too. Plus it makes certain magic weapons all the more useful and exciting for players to find. Houserule ONLY however on my part when I DM. I used to think crits ran tha way for a while. Played with it for a bit, but that was before I really started gaming regularly.
ArcTan 10-16-06, 11:19 PM	That's true. However, I've found it really speeds up combat to do away with the second roll and if the first falls in the crit threat range, just count it as a crit. Use it both ways however, so it's made some rather spectacular hits against players too. Plus it makes certain magic weapons all the more useful and exciting for players to find. Houserule ONLY however on my part when I DM. This makes Keen weapons quite a bit more powerful, just for the record. In fact, it makes Keen weapons, to some extent, replace high attack bonuses, and means you're never gonna want to use anything else against a high-AC opponent. If you like that, good for you. Just letting you know.
Zherog 10-17-06, 06:42 PM	I'm going to guess you probably still need to actually hit the target's AC under GreyLord's house rule.
frasmage 10-17-06, 06:57 PM	Just a 20 autohits, and it also threatens a critical. You then need to roll again and the second roll must also hit in order for the attack to be a critical. [contrived example] Bob the Fighter has a total attack modifier of +5. He's attacking a creature with a 26 AC, using his longsword (threat range 19-20). In round one, Bob rolls a 19. While this would normally "threaten" the attack doesn't beat the target's AC, so Bob misses. In round two, Bob gets even luckier and rolls a 20. Normally a 25 wouldn't hit, but a 20 on an attack roll (and saving throw) is an automatic success. It's also a threat, so Bob rolls to confirm the crit. Bob rolls another 19 - not enough to confirm the crit, so Bob only does his normal damage. Next round, Bob again rolls a 20. He rolls again to confirm the crit, and this time rolls another 20. The critical is confirmed; Bob can roll his damage twice, and his DM should check his dice to make sure they're not loaded. :D [/contrived example] so does bob use loaded dice or what?
The_Jester 10-17-06, 07:01 PM	Next round, Bob again rolls a 20. He rolls again to confirm the crit, and this time rolls another 20. The critical is confirmed... Actually, the rules are vague on this. In the text describing critical hits it says you must hit a target's AC but does not say a 20 is an automatic hit. It's a general assumption that even then a 20 is an auto-hit but I've seen some DMs who disagree with this.
Alac Luin 10-17-06, 07:09 PM	Actually, the rules are vague on this. In the text describing critical hits it says you must hit a target's AC but does not say a 20 is an automatic hit. It's a general assumption that even then a 20 is an auto-hit but I've seen some DMs who disagree with this. See the second post in this thread. a "natural 20" always hits. period.
SolkaTruesilver 10-17-06, 08:52 PM	I read an alternate rule - don't remember where - if you want to consider a little more realism.. take out the auto-hit and auto-fail (on 1), and consider a natural 20 as a "30". Most of the people will succeed, sure, but the average commoner won't be able to hit a Great Wyrm every 20 hits.. And the natural 1 becomes a -10
DarkRhystar 10-17-06, 08:59 PM	In round two, Bob gets even luckier and rolls a 20. Normally a 25 wouldn't hit, but a 20 on an attack roll (and saving throw) is an automatic success. It's also a threat, so Bob rolls to confirm the crit. Bob rolls another 19 - not enough to confirm the crit, so Bob only does his normal damage. Next round, Bob again rolls a 20. He rolls again to confirm the crit, and this time rolls another 20. The critical is confirmed; Bob can roll his damage twice, and his DM should check his dice to make sure they're not loaded. :D It can be argued that this can't happen. In a manner similar to Bracers of Armor being considered like armor but not armor, a Critical Roll can be considered like an attack roll but not an actual attack roll. As such, Automatic Successes will apply to an Attack Roll but not a Critical Roll.
Alac Luin 10-17-06, 09:10 PM	I read an alternate rule - don't remember where - if you want to consider a little more realism.. take out the auto-hit and auto-fail (on 1), and consider a natural 20 as a "30". Most of the people will succeed, sure, but the average commoner won't be able to hit a Great Wyrm every 20 hits.. And the natural 1 becomes a -10 I don't know, an Great Wyrm is a relatively large target, it shouldn't be that hard to hit. The average commoner would have a hard time overcoming the DR though. This is an "alternate rule", standard RAW is a natural 20 always hits. Not an unreasonable alternate rule, but....
PhaedrusXY 10-17-06, 09:15 PM	I don't know, an Great Wyrm is a relatively large target, it shouldn't be that hard to hit. The average commoner would have a hard time overcoming the DR though. This is an "alternate rule", standard RAW is a natural 20 always hits. Not an unreasonable alternate rule, but....In D&D "hit" is a somewhat misleading term. Yes, just about anyone can "hit" a great wyrm dragon. Hence their crappy Touch AC. However, actually hitting one hard enough to damage it is another thing entirely (hence their very high natural armor). Conceptually, there is some overlap between armor class, natural armor, and damage reduction.
Alac Luin 10-17-06, 09:26 PM	In D&D "hit" is a somewhat misleading term. Yes, just about anyone can "hit" a great wyrm dragon. Hence their crappy Touch AC. However, actually hitting one hard enough to damage it is another thing entirely (hence their very high natural armor). Conceptually, there is some overlap between armor class, natural armor, and damage reduction. Exactly. What is so bad to accept a 1st level commoner has a 5% chance to actually get a weapon past the dragon's scales, it just wouldn't have the ability to overcome the DR 20/magic to actually pierce the skin under the scales to do anything.
Ranger REG 10-19-06, 03:49 AM	If i roll a natural 20 on an attack roll (or a value in the critical damage range) do i automatically hit, or could a player get an AC that's too high to be hit (excluding roll modifires)? You automatically hit on a natural 20, no matter how big the attack penalty stacked against you. BUT it's not a critical hit until you roll a successful threat roll right after. If you make a natural roll of any value (not "20") within the weapon's crit range, it's not an automatic hit. In this case, your total attack result (d20 + modifiers) must meet or beat your opponent's total AC. If you succeed, and your natural roll meet within the weapon's crit range, you're entitled to roll for critical hit.
VrecknidjX 10-19-06, 07:49 AM	There are ways to avoid being critted by a 20 (such as Concealment or Fortification armor), but, in general, a natural 20 on the attack roll hits any AC, even a billion. However, against a billion AC, you'd need to roll another natural 20 to deliver a critical (well, supposing you don't have a +billion attack modifier). Dave