Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Baskineli 09-20-05, 05:42 PM	I seem to have a problem with understanding the enhanced critical hit range. If a weapon has crit at 20, you hit. If you succeed to score in the next roll, it is a critical hit. Now, suppose the weapon has 19-20 as critical range. I fight an NPC with AC of 25, and have only +4 bonus to my attack rolls. So, if I score 20, I hit - because of natural 20. What happens if I score 19? It is not natural hit. So, if I score 19, I get 19+4=23 VS 25, so I miss? I am sure I am misunderstanding, could someone please clarify it for me? Thank you!
CravesLove 09-20-05, 05:52 PM	The first roll is to see if it even hits. If it does, then see if it is a critical hit. If the first check shows a critical hit, then roll again to see if the critical is confimed, this requires another roll that would have hit. Fitz
Zherog 09-20-05, 05:54 PM	I fight an NPC with AC of 25, and have only +4 bonus to my attack rolls. So, if I score 20, I hit - because of natural 20. What happens if I score 19? It is not natural hit. So, if I score 19, I get 19+4=23 VS 25, so I miss? I am sure I am misunderstanding, could someone please clarify it for me? Thank you! You're not misunderstanding - you are completely correct.
Baskineli 09-20-05, 06:06 PM	So, to make sure: If I fight the same NPC (AC 25) and I have a +7 attack bonus, I roll a 19, I hit (19+7=26>25), and I roll again. If I hit again, it is critical, if I miss, this is normal hit?
killerrabbit 09-20-05, 06:39 PM	yes
Starlight Knight 09-20-05, 07:40 PM	Here's the way I do it: Critical Hit -The person must roll a natural 20. A roll of a 19 with a +1 sword won't do it. Then the person rolls a second time with the following results: 1-8 Max Damage 9-15 Double Damage (The person rolls for damage and multiplies that by 2) 16-18 Triple Damage (The person rolls for damage and multiplies that by 3) 19 Double Max Damage 20 You guessed it Triple Max Damage Critical Miss - Only on a natural 1 12-20 Lose any further attacks for the round 5-11 Inflict normal damage to yourself (1-50%) or comrade (51-100%) And lose further attacks for the round. 3-4 Inflict double max damage to yourself (1-50%) or comrade (51-100%) and lose further attacks for the round. 2 Inflict double max damage to yourself and be stunned for 1 round 1 You guessed it again Inflict Triple Max Damage to yourself, make a Fortitude save or be stunned for 1D3 rounds. Harsh? Yes. But keep in mind that this applies to players, NPCs, and yes even monsters. They (your players) may not like it now, but wait till Big Red rolls the double 1;)
glennhefley 09-21-05, 01:11 AM	Wow, that's pretty complicated, perhaps a bit less caffiene. I've never found the rules for Critical hits in the Player's Guide to be unbalanced or broken in any fashion, so I just go with those. Not saying that changing or altering rules to make the game run more smoothly is not something a DM should do, whether the rules seem broken or not, but I do feel that adding complexity to combat doesn't normally add fun to the game. your milage may vary...
Trixten_The_Kender 09-21-05, 01:32 AM	We had this same discussion in our group and here's what we decided: A natural 20 is an automatic hit and a critical THREAT, the second roll is to determine if it is a critical HIT. If a weapon's threat range is increased by a Feat or the Keen enhancement and the critical THREAT is not a natural 20, then if you miss the follow up roll and the original roll would have been a miss as well, then you missed completely. (example: to hit an AC of 26 you roll a 19 [threat] with a +6 attack bonus= AC 25, follow up roll is another 19 +6= AC 25) This is based on the rule (see DMG) that a natural 20 is always a hit and a natural 1 is always a miss, otherwise someone with a +25 to hit would hit an AC 26 no matter what and that is not a balanced game. Clear as mud, I know. :twitch: :confused:
Xzavyr 09-21-05, 02:54 AM	double post
Xzavyr 09-21-05, 02:55 AM	I don't have my PHB in front of me, but in one of the sidebars, I believe, it states that if you can only hit a creature on a natural 20, you can't score a critical hit on them. So in your first example, even on a natural 20, it would still only be a normal hit and a 19 would miss. Your second example was interpreted correctly, as killerrabbit stated.
Lord Ian Stark 09-21-05, 05:43 AM	Our group as all natural 20's as automatic crits. You only have to roll another attack to confirm a crit on 19 and below threat range.
glennhefley 09-21-05, 11:36 AM	See, none of these "extra rule" things here seem as balanced as it is suggested in the PH or the DMG with the 20/1 rules. If I have a +4 to hit and that vile thing with 6 tentacles choking innocent kittens has an AC of 25, then a natural 20 hits, but doesn't give me the chance to get a critical ... unless I roll another 20. So I need to find some way to slow it down, or speed me up. The way it is described in the DMG is the natural 20 is a "luck" thing. Just because got lucky, doesn't mean I got good. I guess where I balk on some of these discussions is when we are trying to change to rules to make up for poor choices in roll play or decision making during the quest. If I'm fighting something that I don't have a chance of hitting, then I've probably messed up some where. What I should be doing is retreating and coming up with other options. Yes, my dreams will be disturbed for years to come by the whimpering sounds of dieing kittens, but I'll learn to keep my ears open better next time. More often that not, when these types of rules are messed with you find groups of 5th level characters who have triumphed over gods. :rolleyes:
Zherog 09-21-05, 12:10 PM	I don't have my PHB in front of me, but in one of the sidebars, I believe, it states that if you can only hit a creature on a natural 20, you can't score a critical hit on them. So in your first example, even on a natural 20, it would still only be a normal hit and a 19 would miss. Your second example was interpreted correctly, as killerrabbit stated. I don't recall ever seeing that. Can you tell me what page it's on?
CycloneRanger 09-21-05, 02:20 PM	I love when a simple rules question is asked, and everyone responds with their own houserules without explicitly noting them as such. This sort of thing causes mass confusion. According to the Player's Handbook, the standard rules for critical hits are as follows: Each weapon has a threat range. If your unmodified attack roll (meaning, the number on the d20) falls within this threat range, you check if the attack hits. If the attack does hit, roll another attack, against the same AC and with the same attack bonus. If this attack hits your opponent (you need not roll within your weapon's threat range this time), then you have scored a successful critical hit. Roll damage as appropriate for the weapon and enemy (some enemies, such as undead, are immune to critical hits). Also, any roll of 20 on the d20 (a "natural twenty") is an automatic hit. This rule is entirely separate and not concern the above rule about critical hits. If you roll a natural twenty, the only difference is that you may skip the usual step of comparing your modified attack roll to your opponents AC (since a natural twenty is an automatic hit). You still roll another attack roll to confirm the threat as you always would. Note that there are a few magic items and feats that can modify the rolls made during the process (Power Critical, for instance, grants +4 on all rolls to confirm critical hits with a specific weapon). The basic process, though, is as above. Any change or modification to this is a houserule.
Baskineli 09-21-05, 06:13 PM	Thank you all for clarifying this issue :)
Baskineli 10-02-05, 09:32 PM	This is the case: After figuring it all out, in a playing session, the DM announces that he uses a variant in which a 20 roll is 20+10=30 roll, and 1 roll is -10. I feel that this downgrades my character at higher levels. Right now I am 2nd level ranger that has +5 or +6 bonus on attacks with certain weapons. In 5-6 more levels I will be able to get this 30 roll when I roll 19, but if I fight a particulary high AC opponents, I won't be able to hit them with a roll of 20 - in fact, a roll of 19 will get a better result than a roll of 20. How should I handle it? How can I convince the DM that this variant is bad for my character?
Zherog 10-02-05, 09:41 PM	but if I fight a particulary high AC opponents, I won't be able to hit them with a roll of 20 - in fact, a roll of 19 will get a better result than a roll of 20. That's not the case, you're just misunderstanding the variant rule. Let's say you have a +11 to your attack roll. If you roll a 19, your total is 30 (19 + 11). If you roll a 20, your total is 41 (30 + 11). If you roll a 1, your total is 1 (-1 + 11). This fairly common variant rule removes the auto hit/miss and instead leaves it to your skill (or lack of, as the case may be ;) ).
Molimo 10-02-05, 10:22 PM	This article in RR has some criticisms of that variant, especially if the "20=30, 1=-10" rule applies to skill checks too. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=396753)
Tyler Do'Urden 10-03-05, 12:59 AM	That's okay. Anyone ever try open-ended rolling from the EHB? When you roll a 20, roll again and add 20. If you get another 20, keep going. When you roll a 1, roll again and subtract 20. If you get another 1, keep going. Under these rules, there is a 1 in 3200000 chance that a 1st-level commoner with a Dexterity of 10 and no ranks in Escape Artist can make the DC 100 Escape Artist check necessary to slip through a wall of force. As for playtesting, we once accidentally killed some random NPC. The sorcerer used a cantrip to spook the guy's donkey and the poor slob rolled a -46 on a Handle Animal check. Donkey destroyed the wagon and trampled the guy. The DM must've thought this was hilarious because a few rounds later the donkey walked up to us and said "Oh thank you so much for freeing me from that stupid farmer's opression. Allow me to introduce myself. I am the Wise Ass." I swear on all the world's dice that this is a true story.
Reinforcements 10-03-05, 02:26 PM	Under these rules, there is a 1 in 3200000 chance that a 1st-level commoner with a Dexterity of 10 and no ranks in Escape Artist can make the DC 100 Escape Artist check necessary to slip through a wall of force. Except the "auto-success/failure" rule doesn't apply to skill checks, so why would this? Harsh? Yes. But keep in mind that this applies to players, NPCs, and yes even monsters. They (your players) may not like it now, but wait till Big Red rolls the double 1 Very, very harsh. Any increase in the frequency or severity of critical hits/misses only harms the players. This is because a player getting unlucky with the dice is so much worse than a given monster getting unlucky with the dice. Unless "Big Red" happens to be the one getting the 20-20 critical hit to the face, it's not really that big of a deal. One monster down, some unknown number to go, eh? However, when a player is on the receiving end, it's catastrophic. Player deaths are bad.
Trixten_The_Kender 10-03-05, 02:33 PM	That's why they are called variant rules, for those sadist :devil: rules lawyers in the world. :heehee
MaxDog 10-03-05, 04:19 PM	That's okay. Anyone ever try open-ended rolling from the EHB? When you roll a 20, roll again and add 20. If you get another 20, keep going. When you roll a 1, roll again and subtract 20. If you get another 1, keep going. Under these rules, there is a 1 in 3200000 chance that a 1st-level commoner with a Dexterity of 10 and no ranks in Escape Artist can make the DC 100 Escape Artist check necessary to slip through a wall of force. OMG! Commoners tunnel! What other quantum phenomona have you noticed in them? What's their rest mass? ;)
MaxDog 10-03-05, 04:33 PM	I don't recall ever seeing that. Can you tell me what page it's on? I don't believe there is any such "rule". What he is thinking of is a natural consequence of the to-hit and crit rules. If you attack an opponent with AC > AB + 20 (where AB is your attack bonus), you will only hit him if you roll a 20; even though this is a crit threat, you cannot confirm the crit. If his AC = AB + 20, again, you will only hit him on a roll of 20. This time however, a second roll of 20 will confirm the crit. Thus, if you need to roll higher than 20 to confirm a crit, you cannot crit, but you can still hit (on a roll of a natural 20)