Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sotha_syl 05-17-07, 12:59 AM	So, I had this idea while I was biking and thinking about D&D. Obviously, we get a lot of people saying combat in the game is very unrealistic. I don't think so, it does its job and is believable enough, plus this is a fantasy world where people shoot magic out of their ass and Dragons breathe all sorts of weird things. So strange and epic things tend to happen. However, there aren't really any concrete rules for wounds and impairments received in combat. Obviously people lose limbs, eyes, and take all sorts of grisly wounds that impair them. By the rules, a character who has just been stabbed 15 times and is at 1 HP functions just as well as someone at full HP, and thus I think I might want to create a few alternate rules, that I will build on over time. Heres what I've been working on so far, a critical hits chart. The idea is that critical hits do a lot of damage, and like most variants, this tends to favor monsters, as PCs will take quite a penalty for some of these over time, where a monster probably won't live with the effect for very much longer. So, every time a critical is achieved on a natural 20 (i.e. keen won't make threat ranges of 15-20 roll on this chart, to acheive a degree of balance.) a d10 is rolled and one of these effects is applied to the creature that received the critical hit, in addition to the normal damage. This, as you will see, makes all of the Restoration spells a bit more useful in removing these effects. The rules are still in the works as of yet, and I will probably change them, so expect edits to this thread as time goes by. At any rate: Critical hit chart: d10 1 Extremely Grisly Wound/Scar; -4 diplomacy, +4 Intimidate 2 Battered; Knocked prone and considered shaken, sickened, and fatigued 3 Shock; 1d4 points of Wis and Int damage, stunned for 1d4 rounds 4 Eye Damage; roll 1d2 to determine which 5 Hand Loss; roll 1d2 to determine which 6 Crippling Wound; 1d4 points of Dex and Str damage 7 Limb Loss; roll 1d4 to determine which 8 Internal Damage/Bleeding; 1 Con damage per hour until healed 9 Mortal Wound; character is immediately put to -1 and dying. 10 ??? 1 - The subject's wound is in an obvious place, most likely the face and neck. This results in a scar that is considered ugly by most, and thus gives them a -4 'ugly' penalty to all diplomacy checks. Others may automatically react to the scar, finding it barbaric,threatening, discomforting, or just plain ugly. However, the scar provides a +4 'ugly' bonus on intimidate checks. This can be reversed with a restoration spell or 10 or more points of healing 2 - The subject was hit incredibly hard and is not feeling well. They are considered Shaken, Sickened, and Fatigued (These effects stack) for the next 12 hours, or until they rest 8 hours or more, or until they receive 10 points of healing. 3 - The subject was wounded so badly that they have gone into a state of shock, and are extremely distressed and unreasonable. A character under this effect must make a DC15 concentration check to be able to cast spells or use any skill or ability that requires concentration. This can be reversed with a successful DC15 Heal or Diplomacy check, requiring a full round action to calm the subject. This effect is temporary however, and only lasts 1d20 minutes. 4 - One of the subject's eyes was wounded badly and is now useless. This results in a penalty on relevant skills and actions (i.e. -8 spot and search checks, -2 on all attack rolls) This can be reversed with a restoration spell or 15 points of healing. 5 - One of the subject's hands was mangled, crushed, broken, or completely removed by a weapon and is either useless and gimp or not attached anymore.The character obviously cannot hold anything in this hand, or take actions that require two hands. This can be reversed with a restoration spell. 6 - The subject took a severe amount of muscle damage and is thus much less strong and dextrous. This can be reversed with a restoration spell or 25 points of healing. 7 - One of the subject's limbs was mangled, crushed, broken, or completely removed by a weapon and is either useless and gimp or not attached anymore. If the limb is an arm, the subject obviously cannot hold anything with the relevant hand, or take actions that require two hands. If the limb is a leg, the subject can only move by hobbling or crawling, and thus can only move in 5 foot steps, unless they have a prosthetic limb of some sort, in which case they can move at half speed. The wound will bleed for 1 point of damage a round until a successful DC 15 heal check is made, or some sort of healing is received. This can be reversed with a restoration spell. 8 - The subject was cut incredibly deep, or hit incredibly hard in the torso, and is now bleeding internally, and organ damage has likely been done. The subject will take 1 point of Con damage for the next 24 hours, or until a successful DC 25 heal check is made. This effect can be reversed with a restoration spell. 9 - The subject was mortally wounded with the critical hit, and is now considered disabled and dying at -1 HP. (Unless of course the critical hit would have reduced the subject to -1 or lower, which means that this effect cannot cause a critical hit to deal less damage than it normally would. If this is the case, re-roll on the chart until a different result is achieved.) This effect can be reversed as normal. 10 - ??? (All of those where Restoration could reverse them, so can Lesser Restoration and Greater Restoration) So, as you can see, it's a work in progress. I obviously need one more, and any suggestions to make this function better and more smoothly would be appreciated. I also need 1 more idea on 10, which should be the most deadly of the bunch. Also, I will probably be re-arranging these, as 1 is meant to be the least harmful and 10 is meant to be the most harmful. So, give me a good 10 people and I will use it, and give constructive criticism. If you think this is a bad idea, tell me why and how it would negatively affect the game. Again, any suggestions will be helpful :D
Seir 05-17-07, 01:04 AM	If you get a grisly visible scar you should get an intimidate bonus. :D
Sotha_syl 05-17-07, 01:07 AM	If you get a grisly visible scar you should get an intimidate bonus. :D Done :thumbsup:
Nathreet 05-17-07, 01:08 AM	DnD used to have crit tables, I believe. But they ditched them. Charisma is force of personality. A scar should neither help nor hurt (though it could do either). Most "vocal cord damage" would be lethal. Likewise, most of the items on the table seem odd or otherwise too specific. Maybe a larger table would help, with more plausible effects. But, well, I think DnD used to have that. I dunno.
Sotha_syl 05-17-07, 01:23 AM	DnD used to have crit tables, I believe. But they ditched them. Charisma is force of personality. A scar should neither help nor hurt (though it could do either). Most "vocal cord damage" would be lethal. Likewise, most of the items on the table seem odd or otherwise too specific. Maybe a larger table would help, with more plausible effects. But, well, I think DnD used to have that. I dunno. Hrm. Good point with the scar and the vocal cord damage. I think I will remove vocal chord damage entirely and change the scar rules. If you want to propose "More Plausible effects" then I'd like to hear them. I'm open to suggestions. Seems to me that it's fairly plausible that one could lose a hand, a limb, an eye, go into shock, or get any number of bad wounds while getting hit with a mace, slashed with a sword, or stabbed with a dagger.
stefan_mi 05-17-07, 01:36 AM	One of the things that seems weird is that not everything on the chart applies to all creatures --- what if a character is fighting a naga and scores a critical, and we roll for it's effect and it says that it severs the naga's hand... but the naga has no hands... do we say "no effect" or roll again or apply the damage elsewhere?
Optimized_Commoner 05-17-07, 01:43 AM	Critical hit tables are a bad idea. Not specifically yours, just in general they're not a good thing. 1) The system already has an effect for criticals, by adding to it you are unbalancing every mechanic within the game which affects criticals. In order to bypass this problem, you will have to go through every single book you are using in your game find things that interact with the critical hit system and determine the appropriate new power balance. 2) Anything that is achievable from a critical hit, should logically be achievable from a sneak attack which is specifically described as targetting a vital area on the other character. 3) PCs are going to suffer from a lot of critical hits. 1 in 400 hits is a guaranteed critical no matter how weak their opponent. Against any more powerful opponents, you are going to experience a lot more. PCs are far more likely than monsters to face large numbers of weaker creatures, each of whom still has that 1 in 400 chance of getting a critical. 4) Critical hits bypass a character's hit points. Which are supposed to be a defense against being permanently harmed by enemy attacks. 5) Increases in randomness hurt the PCs, by attributing greater ability to influence the game to a random congruence of numbers you are specifically harming the PCs and making them weaker than the monsters they face. 6) Increases in randomness decrease the ability to plan appopriate balanced encounters, one of the best features of 3e. The more you do things like introducing a critical hit chart, the more chance to experience a TPK or an unsatisfying encounter as monsters are defeated far too easily. 7) Constructs, undead and other critical-immune creatures gain a strength increase which has not been balanced by any corresponding decrease. 8) You are granting a "special ability" to everyone, which is better represented by using a feat. 9) You are forcing the group's composition, by greatly enhancing the requirement for a cleric to acompany them. 10) These special wounds, are either incredibly easily solved (yeah, I cast my restoration spell on bob) or incredibly difficult to solve (great we're in the dungeon of madness and our wizard can't cast spells because his throat's injured. We're miles from anywhere and don't have a cleric. We're screwed). Which means it has negligable impact on the game (thus making it pointless to include) or a huge impact on the game, which means that most of your campaign will end up revolving around a single game mechanic (not a healthy thing). 11) This becomes a rock/paper/scissors mechanic since it's a powerful weakness of every character in the game and has several specific defences against it. It will join the ranks of dispel magic and level drain, as the mechanic everyone is struggling to keep covered. You'll experience an arms race on fortification and critical chance that in the end balances itself out with everyone getting more annoyed. There are probably more reasons, but that'll do for the moment. You have the above 11 reasons saying "Don't do critical hit charts". Unless you can find a stronger reason to use them, then don't. If you do find a stronger reason, don't use a half-done system. Compose a series of house rules on critical hits which functions with simple elegance that addresses all the problems that the mechanic may pose.
Sotha_syl 05-17-07, 02:23 AM	Critical hit tables are a bad idea. Not specifically yours, just in general they're not a good thing. 1) The system already has an effect for criticals, by adding to it you are unbalancing every mechanic within the game which affects criticals. In order to bypass this problem, you will have to go through every single book you are using in your game find things that interact with the critical hit system and determine the appropriate new power balance. 2) Anything that is achievable from a critical hit, should logically be achievable from a sneak attack which is specifically described as targetting a vital area on the other character. 3) PCs are going to suffer from a lot of critical hits. 1 in 400 hits is a guaranteed critical no matter how weak their opponent. Against any more powerful opponents, you are going to experience a lot more. PCs are far more likely than monsters to face large numbers of weaker creatures, each of whom still has that 1 in 400 chance of getting a critical. 4) Critical hits bypass a character's hit points. Which are supposed to be a defense against being permanently harmed by enemy attacks. 5) Increases in randomness hurt the PCs, by attributing greater ability to influence the game to a random congruence of numbers you are specifically harming the PCs and making them weaker than the monsters they face. 6) Increases in randomness decrease the ability to plan appopriate balanced encounters, one of the best features of 3e. The more you do things like introducing a critical hit chart, the more chance to experience a TPK or an unsatisfying encounter as monsters are defeated far too easily. 7) Constructs, undead and other critical-immune creatures gain a strength increase which has not been balanced by any corresponding decrease. 8) You are granting a "special ability" to everyone, which is better represented by using a feat. 9) You are forcing the group's composition, by greatly enhancing the requirement for a cleric to acompany them. 10) These special wounds, are either incredibly easily solved (yeah, I cast my restoration spell on bob) or incredibly difficult to solve (great we're in the dungeon of madness and our wizard can't cast spells because his throat's injured. We're miles from anywhere and don't have a cleric. We're screwed). Which means it has negligable impact on the game (thus making it pointless to include) or a huge impact on the game, which means that most of your campaign will end up revolving around a single game mechanic (not a healthy thing). 11) This becomes a rock/paper/scissors mechanic since it's a powerful weakness of every character in the game and has several specific defences against it. It will join the ranks of dispel magic and level drain, as the mechanic everyone is struggling to keep covered. You'll experience an arms race on fortification and critical chance that in the end balances itself out with everyone getting more annoyed. There are probably more reasons, but that'll do for the moment. You have the above 11 reasons saying "Don't do critical hit charts". Unless you can find a stronger reason to use them, then don't. If you do find a stronger reason, don't use a half-done system. Compose a series of house rules on critical hits which functions with simple elegance that addresses all the problems that the mechanic may pose. Well, of course the system is not yet complete. But I do intend to try out a critical chart despite your 11 pretty good reasons. They seem over exaggerated to me, though, and in essence since my party does in fact have a Cleric with them. (Who can cast Lesser Restoration, actually, but doesn't use it often) In fact, Clerics, or some kind of healer, is almost essential to a group (counting wand of cure light monkeys). And randomness is kind of an element of D&D. Of course 1 in 400 is going to be a critical, probably more! I intend for this chart to be put to use every so often. Sneak attacks do extra damage, I don't even want to complicate things by adding a 'Sneak Attack Chart' because the rogue class was designed around the ability as is. I'm not unbalancing things, so much as I am emphasizing the power of a critical hit. Of course threat range twinking will not affect it, only a natural 20will provoke this chart. No 15-20 keen rapier people running around removing limbs left and right. Other than that, I don't think I need to make any changes to any of the existing critical hit rules. Since the cleric can cast restoration, it won't be extremely difficult to take away most effects, but it will detract from spells per day and can't really be used mid combat, as it has a 3 round casting time and a touch range. Thus, it is meant to be temporary, and largely for flavor and sense of realism (kind of) Its not an issue if they are in the middle of a dungeon, they have a cleric. This is designed for my group, in a way. Undead and constructs will be largely unchanged by this rule. Its not as if balance is relient on someone getting a critical hit and cutting off someones arm to win a fight. Fights against undead and constructs will be, in essence, exactly the same as they were. Other than that, I think this mechanic will be fine in the game. I've never had any of my players use the rock paper scissors mechanic you speak of for almost anything, but whatever. Just saying, I think it will work out just fine, and it adds a bit of realism and excitement to combat. The thrill of critically wounding an opponent, or the risk of being temporarily crippled. My players don't so much get annoyed with setbacks, as they do get enthusiastic over trying to overcome them and ultimately defeat them. Either way, I'll try it out, but to me it happens so rarely it doesn't become a balance issue. However I would like to commend you on good constructive criticism. You gave me a lot of genuinely good reasons without flaming me, which is all too common on most any message board. Plus you helped me to fine tune the system a bit and I changed a few things around because of your reasoning.
SephDragoon 05-17-07, 02:28 AM	I use a critical hit table actually. It is a great addition to the game, with some fun times thrown in. Sometimes it can be a little painful. Like the time I did a coup de grace, and rolled on the critical table, completely changing the type of attack I did (I gave him a concusion, 1d4 wisdom damage). Other times, it gets rediculous... when our fighter, two battles in a row, decapitated the bosses we were fighting (but our fighter crits on a 13! so he gets alot of crits... more than any of us).
Sotha_syl 05-17-07, 02:46 AM	I use a critical hit table actually. It is a great addition to the game, with some fun times thrown in. Sometimes it can be a little painful. Like the time I did a coup de grace, and rolled on the critical table, completely changing the type of attack I did (I gave him a concusion, 1d4 wisdom damage). Other times, it gets rediculous... when our fighter, two battles in a row, decapitated the bosses we were fighting (but our fighter crits on a 13! so he gets alot of crits... more than any of us). 13-20 threat range is in fact crazy, not sure if it's possibly, but I have seen 15-20 so I wouldn't be surprised if it could be achieved somehow. At any rate, if you could post the crit table you use here that would be awesome. Actually, if anyone has any pre-made critical hit tables they made or wizards had in some weird book, or any d20 system uses, I'd like to see it, maybe so I can base mine around it in some way.
Optimized_Commoner 05-17-07, 03:09 AM	They seem over exaggerated to me 10 is perhaps overly polarized. The rest I don't think are over exaggerated, but naturally I'm biased. And randomness is kind of an element of D&D. You don't seem to understand what I've written there. D&D has a certain level of randomness. Any increase in that level is harmful to the players, any decrease in that level is beneficial to the players. Your critical hit chart increases the level of randomness and is thus harmful to the players. This isn't just my opinion, it's a fact of game theory and something people always need to consider when proposing house rules. You don't need to take just my word for this either, unearthed arcana says the same thing. Sneak attacks do extra damage, I don't even want to complicate things by adding a 'Sneak Attack Chart' because the rogue class was designed around the ability as is. :heehee I'm not unbalancing things, so much as I am emphasizing the power of a critical hit. And in doing so, thus unbalancing things to be more harmful to the player. See above. (no, not the emoticon, above that). However I would like to commend you on good constructive criticism. You gave me a lot of genuinely good reasons without flaming me, which is all too common on most any message board. Plus you helped me to fine tune the system a bit and I changed a few things around because of your reasoning. Thankyou, my motives are purely to help you write the very best system you can to help you and your players have an enjoyable game.
ItaraKoturo 05-17-07, 07:07 AM	I'll throw in my voice against critical hit charts. They're a bad idea. Optimized_Commoner hit all the reasons why you shouldn't include them, so I don't really have much to add other than: he's right. You are making critical hits both more powerful and more random. To explain the randomness problem more clearly, you need to understand that D&D is designed so that the players will win. The system favors the PCs (and well it should!). They are supposed to defeat the monsters the vast majority of the time. Randomness, by its very nature, is a field-leveling device. Any increase in random elements benefits the underdog and harms the intended victor by giving them an equalizing element. This is the big reason for why you should not be adding critical charts. It creates a noticeable unbalance in one of the fundamental precepts of D&D: the player characters are supposed to win. The other reasons are all very good and valid, but this one is key.
stefan_mi 05-17-07, 09:10 AM	It creates a noticeable unbalance in one of the fundamental precepts of D&D: the player characters are supposed to win. The other reasons are all very good and valid, but this one is key. As someone who has been playing the game for a while, that hasn't always been the assumption of the D&D game designers... and I and my group don't play it that way currently. I find it can be a lot of fun if a PC bites it once in a while --- the important thing for an exciting game in my opinion (from both a player and a DM standpoint) is the possibility that each encounter COULD be your last... I guess I am trying to say there is more than one way to play D&D. One of the DMs I play with NEVER seems to be able to kill a character... and it gets boring. At this point the players know that we are not in risk of a TPK simply because the monster will run away or give up before that happens... its reached the point where some of the players take foolish risks simply to hint to the DM to stop pulling his punches. As a DM I roll all my dice out on the table and don't pull any punches. I like to deplete the PCs resources (HP, spells and healing) because that is when the players start to get creative and the game even gets a little exciting. If players employ video game tactics like resting after every encounter, they will find lots of wandering monsters coming their way... "Hey, you set up camp right next to the pile of dead orcs you just slaughtered in the wild forest lands which are known to be the hunting grounds of various dangerous monsters... of course an owlbear just came wandering by --- it was attracted by the smell of all of the orc meat... but now that he is here, he has decided he would rather eat fresh adventurer than dead orc..." But as characters gain in levels in 3.5e, their ability to dish out damage increases exponentially... and player levels are much more evenly balanced between the classes than in the 1e days. Critical hits make more sense to me when you are playing older versions of the game if the critical hit chart is graduated -- so higher level PCs are more likely to inflict deadlier crits than lower level PCs and higher level PCs are less likely to suffer embarassing fumbles than lower level PCs (and the same goes for monsters). I'm not sure they are as good an idea in 3.5 e. Here is the outline of a system I use in 1e that we enjoyed a lot: Critical Hit: When a player or monster rolls a natural 20, check for a crit by rolling 1d20 and comparing to crit chart. Add +1 per +1 of magic weapon (magic weapons crit more often) Add +1 per 3 levels of fighter or 3 monster HD, +1 per 4 levels of cleric or +1 per 5 levels of M.U. Crit chart: 01-05 roll for normal damage 06-10 damage x2 11-14 maximum possible damage 15-16 damage x3 17-18 damage x4 19-20 damage x5 Fumbles: When a player or a monster rolls a 1 on a d20 for attack, check for a critical fumble on the below chart. Add +1 per +1 of magic weapon (magic weapons crit more often) Add +1 per 3 levels of fighter or 3 monster HD, +1 per 4 levels of cleric or +1 per 5 levels of M.U. Add/subtract Dex modifier for AC to total. fumble chart 1-3 Strike self or nearest comrade (50% chance) 4-6 Possible break weapon (save vs. crushing blow), or, if attacking with hand/claw/bite, take 1-3 points damage 7-9 slip and fall 10-13 drop weapon (1-8 feet) or, if attacking with hand/claw/bite, lose next round 14-17 lose next round 18+ no effect The advantage of this system is that it is simple, and not everyone crits or fumbles at the same rate... the 14th level fighter with a +3 sword will deliver a devastating crit more often than the 14th level wizard with a dagger... the 14th level wizard will deliver a deadly crit more often than a 1/2 HD giant centipede... and vice versa for fumbles. Rolling a natural 20 does not guarantee a crit and rolling a 1 does not guarantee a fumble... it just introduces the possibility. I add flavor as the DM --- so in one encounter I remember fondly, a fighter ran up to a Yuan-Ti and struck with his sword, inflicting enough damage to kill it instantly due to a critical hit. After the player told me his damage total, I told them that the fighter had run up to the yuan-ti, swung his sword and just decapitated it --- the players cheered.
lastknightleft 05-17-07, 09:46 AM	My only problem with it is the 10% chance of being killed (remember depending on the situation the player could go from full HP to dead in two rounds) I would just change 9 to say "character falls unconcious roll 2d4 to determine how many rounds he stays unconcious" that is just as bad without being as unfair to the possibility of a one hit insta-kill at the beginning of combat. If you want to have the automatically -9 then you need to use a D% instead and lower the chance to 3% or less. Otherwise it is just way to unbalanced. I actually don't like the idea of a crit chart. I do however have a 5% chance that a critical will dismember a limb. where a d12 determines what limb and how much. this doesn't happen often but the threat is there. without the every crit does something aweful feel.
SephDragoon 05-17-07, 11:38 AM	Ok, I will post it, but it is huge, and I only have it with Fantasy Grounds. So rather than copy and paste the xml, I have screenshots. sblock'ed for those of you who don't want to see the huge mass of pictures. http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/2002/crittable1dj8.jpg http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/1027/crittable2mz4.jpg http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/5826/crittable3qr3.jpg http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/5391/crittable4as3.jpg http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3851/crittable5ht7.jpg http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6456/crittable6se5.jpg http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3098/crittable7jd9.jpg http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4354/crittable8vp5.jpg http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2842/crittable9cn1.jpg By the way, no I do not know where it came from, or how to use some of the rules... We kind of came up to a few problems with it, but we manage, because it is a cool mechanic.
goawayugh 05-17-07, 12:10 PM	Here is my Crit and Fumble charts. I am going to redo the fumble chart soon though. Critical Hit Chart d% Effect 01-80 x2 Damage (or normal crit multiplier) 81-90 x3 Damage (or normal crit multiplier +1) 91 Attacks at –2 for 1 round 92 Attacks at –4 for 1 round 93 AC at –2 for 1 round 94 Half speed until magically healed* (only affects one type of movement, DM’s choice) 95 Struck in throat; cannot talk or use breath weapon until magically healed* 96 Dazed for 1 round 97 Struck in arm; take 2 Strength damage 98 Struck in limb; take 2 Dexterity damage 99 Struck in head; take 2 Constitution damage 100 Immediate Death (DM’s choice how it happens) All attacks deal normal damage (not critical) unless otherwise noted. All ability damage is temporary and returns at the normal rate (1 point per day per ability damaged). * magical healing includes any cure spell, heal, fast healing, regeneration, or any similar magic that lets you regain lost hit points. Dazed: A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC. Fumble Chart d% Effect 01-30 Dex check DC15 or be dazed for 1 round 31-50 Dex check DC 20 or be dazed for 1 round 51-60 Dex check DC 25 or be dazed for 1 round 61-62 Dazed for 1 round 63-64 Dex check DC 15 or attacks at –4 for 1 round. 65-66 Dex check DC 20 or attacks at –4 for 1 round. 67-68 Dex check DC 25 or attacks at –4 for 1 round. 69-70 Dex check DC 20 or no attacks for 1 round 71-72 Dex check DC 20 or drop weapon 73-74 Drop weapon 75-76 Weapon slipped out of hands; roll d8 for direction, 1d4 x 5 feet away (if someone is in the way, make an attack roll to hit them) 77-78 Dex check DC 15 or take –4 penalty to AC for 1 round 79-80 Dex check DC 20 or take –4 penalty to AC for 1 round 81-82 Dex check DC 25 or take –4 penalty to AC for 1 round 83-84 Hit friend; half damage (hit self if hitting friend is not possible) 85-86 Hit friend; normal damage (hit self if hitting friend is not possible) 87-88 Hit friend; double damage (hit self if hitting friend is not possible) 89-90 Hit self; half damage 91-92 Hit self; normal damage 93-94 Hit self; double damage 95-96 Hit friend; friend dazed for 1 round (no damage) (hit self if hitting friend is not possible) 97 Critical hit; friend (DM’s choice of chart or normal crit multiplier) 98 Critical hit; self (DM’s choice of chart or normal crit multiplier) 99 Roll again twice; re-roll 99 or 100; take worst possible result for situation 100 Roll again three times; re-roll 99 or 100; take worst possible result for situation OR DM’s choice It is a move action to pick up a dropped item. Dazed: A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.
Seeker95 05-17-07, 01:27 PM	3) PCs are going to suffer from a lot of critical hits. 1 in 400 hits is a guaranteed critical (statistically) no matter how weak the opponent. PCs are far more likely than monsters to face large numbers of weaker creatures, each of whom still has that 1 in 400 chance of getting a critical.This alone is the reason critical hits and called shots are inadvisable for D&D. The PCs will achieve crits plenty of times, but against dozens and even hundreds of different opponents in a campaign. Their opponents, on the other hand, will be achieving crits at roughly the same rate. Any long-term campaign is going to see the PCs suffering from these long-term/permanent effects in excess.
Sotha_syl 05-17-07, 10:21 PM	Look, I like my D&D lethal. I like the involvement of a (mildly) realistic amount of risk, and even death. So no longer am I consulting you folks on whether a critical hit chart will unbalance things, now Im just looking for suggestions. The way I see things, I want a bit more of an element of danger. So, out with the anti-crit charts, in with suggestions... What should number 10 be? Any ideas?
thanatos_lich 05-18-07, 04:19 AM	If you want crit charts i recomend buying the critonomican from technomancer press. I use it. It works fairly well.
Seeker95 05-18-07, 09:32 AM	Look, I like my D&D lethal. So, out with the anti-crit charts, in with suggestions... What should number 10 be? Any ideas?Hand the PCs a d20. At the start of every encounter, have them roll it. If they roll a one, they are dead. Takes a lot of the description out of the crit-game, but achieves the same end.
RobbyPants 05-18-07, 09:35 AM	It's 2nd edition, but it's not too hard to port over... If you have access to Players Option: Combat & Tactics, there is a pretty decent crit system in there. It's complete with locations for different body parts, different effects for slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning, and severity based on weapon size. I only suggest it, because it takes care of a lot of the issues that people have suggested, and it's already published and printed. A quick rundown (without getting too specific; it's not OGL ;)): Check for location (head, torso, abdomen, arm, or leg). Smaller creatures will hit lower, larger creatures will hit higher. Roll for "severity" (based on the size of the weapon compared to the size of the defender). Reference the correct chart (by damage type), find the appropriate body part and cross reference with the severity. ??? Profit! I mean, crit! Anyway, I liked using it back when I played 2E. There are a few issues you'll need to take into account when converting to 3.5: In that system, a save Vs. Death negates the crit effect. I would think a Fort save is unnecessary, because a crit has to be confirmed in 3.5... After 3.0, weapons stopped having static "sizes". I would probably compare the size of the weapon (typically the same as the wielder, unless they have powerful build or Monkey Grip) with the defender, and add a bonus if it's two-handed, or a penalty if it's light.
Sotha_syl 05-18-07, 02:26 PM	Hand the PCs a d20. At the start of every encounter, have them roll it. If they roll a one, they are dead. Takes a lot of the description out of the crit-game, but achieves the same end. Did you even read my post? Only a couple of those options can actually be lethal, and the PCs can do something smart to reverse any of them, no problem. However, barring the fact that you have no idea what my crit chart idea is, your probability is foolish beyond reason. First off, when an enemy rolls a 20 they must confirm critical, which throws off your estimate of 1 in 20 by a long shot. Second, if they manage to confirm they deal critical strike damage and roll on the critical hit chart, which contains only to options which can be considered lethal. So, rough estimate puts it at 1/500 or so that they will be at risk of death soon, not 1/20. In fact, my crit chart doesn't even include an option for instant-death (except for, say, a massive critical that does a ton of damage and reduces the subject to -10, which is completely independent of my chart's design) which reduces the probability to 0 that they will be instantly killed because of my chart. ZERO. So go somewhere else and insult a decent idea without any clue of whats going on.
Sotha_syl 05-18-07, 02:33 PM	... Check for location (head, torso, abdomen, arm, or leg). Smaller creatures will hit lower, larger creatures will hit higher. Roll for "severity" (based on the size of the weapon compared to the size of the defender). Reference the correct chart (by damage type), find the appropriate body part and cross reference with the severity. ??? Profit! I mean, crit! ... Some good ideas, but what stood out is that I may have found a fellow /b/tard on the Wizards boards. Anonymous does not forgive. :invasion:
RobbyPants 05-18-07, 02:42 PM	Some good ideas, but what stood out is that I may have found a fellow /b/tard on the Wizards boards. Anonymous does not forgive. :invasion: Somewhere in all this, I got confused... :confused:
Sotha_syl 05-18-07, 02:49 PM	Somewhere in all this, I got confused... :confused: Then perhaps I was mistaken. :weep: (What I said was a compliment, though. :D )
Seeker95 05-18-07, 03:49 PM	Did you even read my post?Twice. Only a couple of those options can actually be lethalThat even one of them can be lethal is sufficient to make the death of a PC more likely than current bad luck. and the PCs can do something smart to reverse any of them, no problem.True. Death is reversible in D&D. Your chart just adds more random death to the game. However, barring the fact that you have no idea what my crit chart idea is,I do not see how you can make such a claim. Each of my replies has demonstrated that I understand your crit chart; I just happen to disagree with it. However, in voicing my disagreement, I have not felt the need to insult you. your probability is foolish beyond reason.So I speed up the inevitable end. I could have said "have the players roll two d20s. If they roll two 1s, they're dead." This slows the inevitability of a random death. But it is still a purely random death. First off, when an enemy rolls a 20 they must confirm critical, which throws off your estimate of 1 in 20 by a long shot.Confirming a critical means "rolling a normal successful hit". Not that hard. Confirming a critical gets easier as the PCs get higher in level. So the higher you get in level, the higher in combat prowess your opponents are likely to be; the more likely they are to confirm a crit. Again, the result is a higher chance of a completely random death. Second, if they manage to confirm they deal critical strike damage and roll on the critical hit chart, which contains only two options which can be considered lethal.Again, confirming the crit gets easier as you climb in level. And your chart has ten entries. You note that two are deadly. That is 20% of all successful crits. Getting a crit tends to be a 10% chance (19-20 on a d20). Confirming it? Let's be cautiously conservative and say it is only 25%. The chance of a completely random death is one in 500 (as you noted). The average 10th level character has two attacks per round. Let's assume his opponents also have only two attacks a round. It takes 250 "opponent rounds" to receive the "statistical guarantee" of a random crit-death regardless of your tactics, caution, and style of play. Assuming an average combat duration of three rounds, that's only 83 opponents. Assuming an average of two opponents per encounter (again, very conservative) that's 42 encounters. With the game designed to take 13 encounters per level, that is a deadly critical every 3.2 levels. Your crit chart statistically ensures a deadly crit by 4th level. Take away the "two out of 10" deadly crits, and just call it a crit. In this case, your chart is used on every crit. Repeating the above, getting a crit tends to be a 10% chance (19-20 on a d20). Confirming it? Let's be cautiously conservative and say it is only 25%. A confirmed crit happens in one in 40 swings. That's 20 "opponent rounds" with three-round combats requiring only seven opponents. With an average of two opponents per encounter, that's every four encounters. Your chart gets consulted three times per level. Spread this over a party of four, and by 10th level, each character has been crit-charted at least seven times. Statistics are the reason crit charts are a generally bad idea. Random chance events work against the characters because of the very nature of the game. It is like earning your living as a professional Russian roulette player. Statistically, you are going to lose. So go somewhere else and insult a decent idea without any clue of whats going on.I have not insulted your idea. I have criticized it. That you take offense is not my problem. That you choose to be insulting because someone dares disagree with your idea is your problem.
RobbyPants 05-18-07, 03:50 PM	Then perhaps I was mistaken. :weep: (What I said was a compliment, though. :D ) Cool! I'll take it! :P
Einvaldurinn_mikli 05-18-07, 04:13 PM	Some good ideas, but what stood out is that I may have found a fellow /b/tard on the Wizards boards. Anonymous does not forgive. :invasion: You'd be surprised at the number here.
SephDragoon 05-18-07, 04:29 PM	The Legion of anonymous is strong here... stronger than even the force.
jdarksong 05-19-07, 10:27 AM	Me and my group love critical hits. They don't mind at all that they are exposed to them, either. It adds character to your character when you can show off your scars! I find the Combat and Tactics book doesn't jive so well with 3x edition. I would highly recommend the Hackmaster crit chart for the leathality you are looking for. It's not as simple as yours, but it's great fun and works well with 3x. As an option for your tenth crit item, I would say make a Fort save DC of 5 + damage dealt or fall into a coma, -1 hp, for 1-4 weeks. Any vigorous movement of the body, or damage dealt requires another save at the same DC or the pc dies.
ItaraKoturo 05-19-07, 05:01 PM	Some good ideas, but what stood out is that I may have found a fellow /b/tard on the Wizards boards. Anonymous does not forgive. :invasion: The underpants gnomes meme has been around far longer than /b/ has. Also, listen to the people telling you that crit charts are a bad idea. They're right. You need to realize that your game can incorporate realism in some other fashion that doesn't badly harm the PCs while giving NPCs a significant benefit.
RadicalTaoist 05-19-07, 07:52 PM	http://pics.livejournal.com/twoflower/pic/0002xxtw Just describe the effects of critical hits however you want. You don't have to change the mechanics at all. They may appear flavorful, but don't buy into the myth that crit charts make combat more interesting. They just nerf your melee characters.