CRs of Monsters with class Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

CRs of Monsters with class Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zeophlite
08-10-07, 11:27 AM Hey,

I just wanted to clear up some confusion on my part about the specific number of encounters per level, etc.

I'm slightly confused on how to calculate the CR for a monster.

Say I have a Centaur (MM32). +2 LA, 4 racial hit die.
It is listed as CR 3, for 4d8+8 hp, in MM.

What if a centaur had 3 levels of Ranger. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 3 lvls pc.
What if a centaur had 3 levels of Warrior. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 3 lvls npc.
What if a centaur had 1 levels of Warrior, 2 of Ranger. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 1 lvl npc, 2 lvls pc.

I'm looking for a formula to work out the CR of each enemy.

I guess my confusion comes from source books that have descriptions of characters, with their CR = character level.

Eg. Complete Warrior p71, Sample Purple Dragon Knight. Half-elf paladin 5 / Purple Dragon Knight 5, CR 10.

A CR 10 monster, should be a challenge (and take 20% of the resources of) a EL 10 party (i.e. 4 characters at ECL 10). (DMG p49)

At the end of the encounter, the players deal 100% of resources of the enemy (4 * 25%) and the enemy deals 20% against each member (4 * 20%).

This seems fair, given that the party can work together to deal that 5% extra each (through buffs, flanking, etc)

So that seems okay for an enemy that chooses a race with LA +0, no racial hit die, and takes PC levels.

What about enemys that have LA, racial hit die, or NPC levels.

As for encounters:

Player ECL = racial HD + PC class levels

The monsters (CR found above) are added together to make an encounter (Table 3-1, DMG, p49) of a certain Encounter Level. An encounter, as stated above, should be a challenge (and take 20% of the resources of) a EL n party (i.e. 4 characters at ECL n), where n is the Encounter Level. (DMG p49)

XP is then calculated, and distributed.

Treasure:
Gaining a level requires 13-14 encounters, of Party EL.
Average treasure per encounter is found at Table 3-3, DMG p51.
This should keep up with character wealth per level (DMG p135).

For example, 4 players at 1st level.
From the above, require 13-14, 1 EL encounters to reach level 2.
Each encounter, are rewarded 300 gp to the party.

13*300/4 = 975
14*300/4 = 1050

Level 2 wealth: 900 gp.
So 75-150 gp is spent on perishable goods. (seems reasonable).

Note that the above is also mentioned at Behind the Curtins: Treasure Values, DMG p54.

Thats about it.

Could you please read through the above and check that it is all accurate?
Thankyou for clearing up my confusion,

Cheers
Richmud
08-10-07, 12:02 PM Hey,

I just wanted to clear up some confusion on my part about the specific number of encounters per level, etc.

Understandable it can get really confusing

Say I have a Centaur (MM32). +2 LA, 4 racial hit die.
It is listed as CR 3, for 4d8+8 hp, in MM.

What if a centaur had 3 levels of Ranger. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 3 lvls pc.

The centaur would have a CR of 6. 3 for the centaurs base CR and 3 for the levels of ranger (this is because ranger is an associated class, more on that later)

What if a centaur had 3 levels of Warrior. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 3 lvls npc.

In this case we have CR of 5, Again we start with the base CR of 3 and this time we add CR for NPC levels which is number of levels-1

What if a centaur had 1 levels of Warrior, 2 of Ranger. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 1 lvl npc, 2 lvls pc.

This centaur also has a CR of 5, 3 base +2 PC class + 1-1 NPC class

I'm looking for a formula to work out the CR of each enemy.

What about enemys that have LA, racial hit die, or NPC levels.

LA never factors into the CR of a creature and racial HD would already have been accounted for in the creatures base CR. So its basically Base CR + NPC levels-1 + PC levels. This assumes the class levels are associated with the base creature. An associated class is a class that makes the base creature better at what its could at. For a centaur which is a monster that primarily engages in melee combat classes with a full BAB will be considered associated, this includes the ranger and warrior levels used in the examples above.

Now if we wanted to figure out the CR of a centaur druid 6 things get a tad more complicated.

The first 4 levels of a unassociated class only count for half so this centuar druid has a CR of 3 + 2(half of the first 4 unassociated levels) + 2 (remaining PC levels) = 7

Associated classes are often a judgment call on the part of the DM but generally melee creatures have all the class with full BAB as associated, ranged attackers have the classes with full BAB whose abilities work with ranged attacks (rangers and fighters). If a monster naturally has sneak attack then rogue is associated similarly if it has many rogues in its description rogue will also be associated. Caster classes are generally only associated with monsters that cast naturally. For instance Nymphs and druid.

As for encounters:

Player ECL = racial HD + PC class levels

The monsters (CR found above) are added together to make an encounter (Table 3-1, DMG, p49) of a certain Encounter Level. An encounter, as stated above, should be a challenge (and take 20% of the resources of) a EL n party (i.e. 4 characters at ECL n), where n is the Encounter Level. (DMG p49)

XP is then calculated, and distributed.

Treasure:
Gaining a level requires 13-14 encounters, of Party EL.
Average treasure per encounter is found at Table 3-3, DMG p51.
This should keep up with character wealth per level (DMG p135).

For example, 4 players at 1st level.
From the above, require 13-14, 1 EL encounters to reach level 2.
Each encounter, are rewarded 300 gp to the party.

13*300/4 = 975
14*300/4 = 1050

Level 2 wealth: 900 gp.
So 75-150 gp is spent on perishable goods. (seems reasonable).

Note that the above is also mentioned at Behind the Curtins: Treasure Values, DMG p54.

Thats about it.

Could you please read through the above and check that it is all accurate?
Thankyou for clearing up my confusion,

Cheers

You seem to have this part understood properly
Stormonu
08-10-07, 12:11 PM A CR 10 monster, should be a challenge (and take 20% of the resources of) a EL 10 party (i.e. 4 characters at ECL 10). (DMG p49)

At the end of the encounter, the players deal 100% of resources of the enemy (4 * 25%) and the enemy deals 20% against each member (4 * 20%).

This seems fair, given that the party can work together to deal that 5% extra each (through buffs, flanking, etc)

That's not *quite* correct. It's 20% to the entire party. That may mean that the wizard doesn't lose any hit points because he stands back and blasts with spells, while the fighter (whose in melee) loses about 40% of hit points. The 20% averages out over the entire party, not necessarily to each individual character.

Also, "resources" include spells used, items used and whatnot, not just damage taken. Also, some of those resources may actually be used after the encounter is over (such as the case of healing spells/potions/wands/etc., restoration magic, neutralize poison spells/items and the like). For example, if the fighter DID take a 40% loss of hit points in a fight, the cleric might use his 20% of resources in spells or items healing the fighter back up to a 20% loss or even back to full AFTER the fight has ended.
Zeophlite
08-10-07, 09:54 PM Ah, thankyou Stormonu for clarifying the "resources lost" misunderstanding.

And Richmud, thanks for explaining how CR's are calculated. Just for completness, though, where are the "Rules" which state what you've written.

I.e. the "associated class" and the "HD + PC levels + (NPC levels - 1)"

Just incase I need to refer to them, or inform others.

Cheers
Morwen
08-10-07, 10:11 PM Ah, thankyou Stormonu for clarifying the "resources lost" misunderstanding.

And Richmud, thanks for explaining how CR's are calculated. Just for completness, though, where are the "Rules" which state what you've written.

I.e. the "associated class" and the "HD + PC levels + (NPC levels - 1)"

Just incase I need to refer to them, or inform others.

Cheers

It's in the "Advanced Monsters Challenge Rating" section in the Monster Manual. Pages 293-294.
Ebonarc
08-10-07, 10:13 PM Just for completness, though, where are the "Rules" which state what you've written.

Page 293-294 of the Monster Manual, starting under Adding Class Levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zeophlite 08-10-07, 11:27 AM	Hey, I just wanted to clear up some confusion on my part about the specific number of encounters per level, etc. I'm slightly confused on how to calculate the CR for a monster. Say I have a Centaur (MM32). +2 LA, 4 racial hit die. It is listed as CR 3, for 4d8+8 hp, in MM. What if a centaur had 3 levels of Ranger. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 3 lvls pc. What if a centaur had 3 levels of Warrior. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 3 lvls npc. What if a centaur had 1 levels of Warrior, 2 of Ranger. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 1 lvl npc, 2 lvls pc. I'm looking for a formula to work out the CR of each enemy. I guess my confusion comes from source books that have descriptions of characters, with their CR = character level. Eg. Complete Warrior p71, Sample Purple Dragon Knight. Half-elf paladin 5 / Purple Dragon Knight 5, CR 10. A CR 10 monster, should be a challenge (and take 20% of the resources of) a EL 10 party (i.e. 4 characters at ECL 10). (DMG p49) At the end of the encounter, the players deal 100% of resources of the enemy (4 * 25%) and the enemy deals 20% against each member (4 * 20%). This seems fair, given that the party can work together to deal that 5% extra each (through buffs, flanking, etc) So that seems okay for an enemy that chooses a race with LA +0, no racial hit die, and takes PC levels. What about enemys that have LA, racial hit die, or NPC levels. As for encounters: Player ECL = racial HD + PC class levels The monsters (CR found above) are added together to make an encounter (Table 3-1, DMG, p49) of a certain Encounter Level. An encounter, as stated above, should be a challenge (and take 20% of the resources of) a EL n party (i.e. 4 characters at ECL n), where n is the Encounter Level. (DMG p49) XP is then calculated, and distributed. Treasure: Gaining a level requires 13-14 encounters, of Party EL. Average treasure per encounter is found at Table 3-3, DMG p51. This should keep up with character wealth per level (DMG p135). For example, 4 players at 1st level. From the above, require 13-14, 1 EL encounters to reach level 2. Each encounter, are rewarded 300 gp to the party. 13300/4 = 975 14300/4 = 1050 Level 2 wealth: 900 gp. So 75-150 gp is spent on perishable goods. (seems reasonable). Note that the above is also mentioned at Behind the Curtins: Treasure Values, DMG p54. Thats about it. Could you please read through the above and check that it is all accurate? Thankyou for clearing up my confusion, Cheers
Richmud 08-10-07, 12:02 PM	Hey, I just wanted to clear up some confusion on my part about the specific number of encounters per level, etc. Understandable it can get really confusing Say I have a Centaur (MM32). +2 LA, 4 racial hit die. It is listed as CR 3, for 4d8+8 hp, in MM. What if a centaur had 3 levels of Ranger. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 3 lvls pc. The centaur would have a CR of 6. 3 for the centaurs base CR and 3 for the levels of ranger (this is because ranger is an associated class, more on that later) What if a centaur had 3 levels of Warrior. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 3 lvls npc. In this case we have CR of 5, Again we start with the base CR of 3 and this time we add CR for NPC levels which is number of levels-1 What if a centaur had 1 levels of Warrior, 2 of Ranger. +2 LA, 4 racial hit die, 1 lvl npc, 2 lvls pc. This centaur also has a CR of 5, 3 base +2 PC class + 1-1 NPC class I'm looking for a formula to work out the CR of each enemy. What about enemys that have LA, racial hit die, or NPC levels. LA never factors into the CR of a creature and racial HD would already have been accounted for in the creatures base CR. So its basically Base CR + NPC levels-1 + PC levels. This assumes the class levels are associated with the base creature. An associated class is a class that makes the base creature better at what its could at. For a centaur which is a monster that primarily engages in melee combat classes with a full BAB will be considered associated, this includes the ranger and warrior levels used in the examples above. Now if we wanted to figure out the CR of a centaur druid 6 things get a tad more complicated. The first 4 levels of a unassociated class only count for half so this centuar druid has a CR of 3 + 2(half of the first 4 unassociated levels) + 2 (remaining PC levels) = 7 Associated classes are often a judgment call on the part of the DM but generally melee creatures have all the class with full BAB as associated, ranged attackers have the classes with full BAB whose abilities work with ranged attacks (rangers and fighters). If a monster naturally has sneak attack then rogue is associated similarly if it has many rogues in its description rogue will also be associated. Caster classes are generally only associated with monsters that cast naturally. For instance Nymphs and druid. As for encounters: Player ECL = racial HD + PC class levels The monsters (CR found above) are added together to make an encounter (Table 3-1, DMG, p49) of a certain Encounter Level. An encounter, as stated above, should be a challenge (and take 20% of the resources of) a EL n party (i.e. 4 characters at ECL n), where n is the Encounter Level. (DMG p49) XP is then calculated, and distributed. Treasure: Gaining a level requires 13-14 encounters, of Party EL. Average treasure per encounter is found at Table 3-3, DMG p51. This should keep up with character wealth per level (DMG p135). For example, 4 players at 1st level. From the above, require 13-14, 1 EL encounters to reach level 2. Each encounter, are rewarded 300 gp to the party. 13300/4 = 975 14300/4 = 1050 Level 2 wealth: 900 gp. So 75-150 gp is spent on perishable goods. (seems reasonable). Note that the above is also mentioned at Behind the Curtins: Treasure Values, DMG p54. Thats about it. Could you please read through the above and check that it is all accurate? Thankyou for clearing up my confusion, Cheers You seem to have this part understood properly
Stormonu 08-10-07, 12:11 PM	A CR 10 monster, should be a challenge (and take 20% of the resources of) a EL 10 party (i.e. 4 characters at ECL 10). (DMG p49) At the end of the encounter, the players deal 100% of resources of the enemy (4 * 25%) and the enemy deals 20% against each member (4 * 20%). This seems fair, given that the party can work together to deal that 5% extra each (through buffs, flanking, etc) That's not quite correct. It's 20% to the entire party. That may mean that the wizard doesn't lose any hit points because he stands back and blasts with spells, while the fighter (whose in melee) loses about 40% of hit points. The 20% averages out over the entire party, not necessarily to each individual character. Also, "resources" include spells used, items used and whatnot, not just damage taken. Also, some of those resources may actually be used after the encounter is over (such as the case of healing spells/potions/wands/etc., restoration magic, neutralize poison spells/items and the like). For example, if the fighter DID take a 40% loss of hit points in a fight, the cleric might use his 20% of resources in spells or items healing the fighter back up to a 20% loss or even back to full AFTER the fight has ended.
Zeophlite 08-10-07, 09:54 PM	Ah, thankyou Stormonu for clarifying the "resources lost" misunderstanding. And Richmud, thanks for explaining how CR's are calculated. Just for completness, though, where are the "Rules" which state what you've written. I.e. the "associated class" and the "HD + PC levels + (NPC levels - 1)" Just incase I need to refer to them, or inform others. Cheers
Morwen 08-10-07, 10:11 PM	Ah, thankyou Stormonu for clarifying the "resources lost" misunderstanding. And Richmud, thanks for explaining how CR's are calculated. Just for completness, though, where are the "Rules" which state what you've written. I.e. the "associated class" and the "HD + PC levels + (NPC levels - 1)" Just incase I need to refer to them, or inform others. Cheers It's in the "Advanced Monsters Challenge Rating" section in the Monster Manual. Pages 293-294.
Ebonarc 08-10-07, 10:13 PM	Just for completness, though, where are the "Rules" which state what you've written. Page 293-294 of the Monster Manual, starting under Adding Class Levels.