Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KoboldSlayer 05-24-05, 03:35 PM	I wanted to get a few opinions on this: What "level" fighter do you think an Olympic-caliber fencer would be? I know that the game world doesn't exactly confirm to the real world in many ways, including classes (and physics, and alignments, etc.) But just as an approximation, what do you think? The reason I ask: One player tried to use the example of an Olympic competitor to illustrate a point about a 20th-level fighter. Since the Olympics pretty much embodies the best humanly possible, this position can make sense that a fighter of Olympic calibur would be just short of being "epic"...which is beyond humanly possible. The other player said that the illustration was not valid because and Olympic-calibur athlete would not be 20th level. That logic can also make sense because, while Olympians are very skilled, they may not be of the calibur that would be considered heroic like a 20th level character. It's completely irrelevant to the game, and even the argument that the example was used in is mostly irrelevant, but I thought it was an interesting question for discussion. What do you all think?
Edymnion 05-24-05, 03:40 PM	I'd put the Olympians at maybe lvl 7-10, with all the feats and skills needed to max out their specific area. Like Weapon Focus, Endurance, Run, whatever. They're extremly good, yes. But they're not near-godlike in their abilities.
Sulaco 05-24-05, 03:46 PM	Firstly, I wouldn't count an Olympic fencer as a fighter at all. Their sport is all about dexterity, not strength and endurance. Second, I don't think they would be any PC class at all. They are high-level NPC Experts focused of their sport. The modern fencing foil isn't even a weapon, it is just a piece of sporting equipment like a soccer ball or an ice skate. So an Olympic-class Fencer is probably in the Expert 7 (first-round losers) to Expert 12 (medalists) range.
Seeker95 05-24-05, 03:52 PM	With regard to Olympian levels... I would agree with Edymnion: 7th to 10th level. With regard to Olympic fencing... maybe apprentice at best in terms of the D&D fighter. Apprentice to a warrior at that. Olympic fencing is absolutely horrid martial combat. Watch the competition. Nobody loses points for getting hit by their opponent. First to "draw blood" wins, even if hitting your opponent's shoulder involved putting yourself into a position to get skewered right through the chest. Olympic fencing is about reach and speed. Not combat skills. (Sulaco beat me to the fencer comment.)
StormKnight 05-24-05, 04:07 PM	While there's no way to tell what a correlation is, I tend to think that "realistic" limits are about levels 4-5 or so. By level 6 characters can do things well beyond what people in the real world can; taking on and defeating numerous normal foes at once, for example.
Make The Prince 05-24-05, 04:48 PM	Well there IS some historic figures that were thruly powerful. I don't remember is name, but the most powerful martial artist recorded defeated around 385 black belts and ended up with a forearm and a few rigs broken. Bruce Lee was something too. Alexis LeTrotteur could run faster than a train (He developpe some horse-like tendons for reasons that are still obscure ....) Etc! Plus, if You look for God-Like: The is always Me .... :evillaugh
wordserpent 05-24-05, 06:21 PM	I realize that this has been pointed out in an earlier post but I will reiterate it because I am very passionate about the subject of fencing. Modern Fencing, in no way approaches actual combat. The centuries-old principles that went into the art of fencing have been ignored by sport fencers since the 1940's. The concept of "touching and not being touched" was replaced by "forget everything else, just get the touch." which is contrary to just about every martial art method ever taught. The modern day olympic fencer who relies on speed and aggression at the expense of personal defense might have a few high stats and perhaps the Improved Initiative Feat, but would not be classified as a fighter or warrior in any way. The only modern fencing weapon that even approaches being an actual killing tool would be the epee'. This weapon was actually used in duels in the late 19th and early 20th century and it's method of use is directly descended from the use of the rapier. However, the steel used in modern fencing weapons is too 'springy' and flexible to resemble the duelling swords of a previous age. The modern sport fencer relies on quickness of hand and the flexibility of the steel to make whipping motions (called the 'flick') and score touches while a fencer trained in the traditional classical method uses timing, distance and a measure of his own movements to defeat his opponants. Now that I have gotten that off of my chest I would also like to add that the D&D system has very little in common with real life and the concept of character "levels" of power are ridiculous in a world where famous and experienced professional people can be killed with one arrow.
Hairfoot 05-25-05, 08:59 AM	Drawing parallels between D&D and the real world is largely pointless because, even in a fantasy-fiction setting, PCs are grand exceptions to the norm. D&D characters are superheroes. They go far beyond the abilities of regular mortals. A commoner/fighter of the highest grade would be, maybe, 2nd level. Look at Lennox Lewis, world champion heavyweight boxer. He's not a patch on a level 3 human fighter with four feats. In the parts of the world sufficiently developed to support a roleplaying community, all combat (apart from street crime) takes place in the context of sport - with rules, regulations, ringside doctors, and tap-outs for the competitors. They are simulations of life-or-death combat, devoid of dirty tricks and the threat of multiple opponents. Frankly, I give your Olympic fencer bad odds against a drunk bikey armed with pool cue.