Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CDTalmas 11-16-07, 04:59 PM	I feel like a total geek... but I've actually come up with my own dice rolling method for rolling stats, as well as a new feat to accompany it. I'm curious what others think of it, so I'm going to post here. Please critique honestly... I know it LOOKS a bit on the powerful side, but I've found it to be a lot of fun to just roll up stats, as complex as the system is. Anyhow... to the nitty gritty! **Warning -- This dice rolling system is rather complex so come prepared!** First, start off by rolling 3d6 six times. Easy enough, eh? Well, depending on what you roll... If you roll, say, a 5, a 3, and a 6, you can now choose to activate Option 1. Option 1 (aka. "Open-Ended Sixes"): If a 6 is rolled, take the remaining non 6's, set them aside, add them up, and then add 5 for each 6 that was rolled. Then, re-roll the 6 and add the following number. If another 6 is rolled, repeat the above process until a 6 is not rolled or until you reach a total value of 30, whichever comes first. So, taking the above example, you have a 5 and a 3 remaining. Those add up to 8. Now, add 5 to the number for a total of 13. Finally, we re-roll the 6. Say it winds up with a 5. Our first roll, then, is 18. Not a bad start! Now, let's move on to the next option... The next roll pops up as a 3, a 3, and a 4. Normally, that would be a 10. Average roll, to be sure. However, that opens up the possibility of using Option 2... Option 2 (aka. "Matching Replays"): If you roll two of the same number, take that number and add it to the following re-roll (of all dice). If you roll three of the same number, take that number, multiply it by two, then add it to the following re-roll. Let's take the above example again. Since you rolled two 3's, you can add 3 to the next roll. We'll say it pops up with a 1, 4, and 4. 9 total. So now, you add 3 to that value for an overall total of 12. Certainly better than 10! One thing to note is that if you choose Option 1 or Option 2, you cannot choose the other for the remainder of that roll. If you roll a 3, a 3, and a 6, you must choose Option 1 or Option 2. Once the choice is made, you cannot reverse it (just from personal observation, it's better to re-roll the 6 than add the numbers). Even if, following Option 2, you receive a 6 in the next roll, you may not re-roll the 6! Another point to consider is "what happens with those low-ass rolls?!" Truthfully, that's up to you as the DM. I set in a "no value lower than 8" rule to make sure that the party is never hurting for stats. They can still have negatives, but nothing so detrimental that they would wind up hating the character so soon after creation and "locking in" the rolls. Finally, and this is the real kicker, no character may have a starting stat greater than 18! But how is this possible, you ask? There are two methods, and both [may] involve the new feat in some way. Choice 1 (aka. "Distribution"): A character who has a 19-30 in any particular stat may choose to place those points into other stats to bring them up to, or close to, 18. The exact method is up to the DM (I use the point-buy system to ensure that raising all stats to 18 is a rather difficult endeavor; you may, at your discretion, utilize a one-for-one point system of distribution if a character's stats are too low or you simply want a high-powered campaign). Choice 2 (aka. "Extended Growth"): A character who has a 19-30 in any particular stat may choose to have the extra points remain in that stat, to be applied when they actually "grow" (read: at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level). This is the following chart for growth: 19: +1 20: +1/+1 21: +1/+1/+1 22: +1/+1/+1/+1 23: +1/+1/+1/+1/+1 24: +2/+1/+1/+1/+1 25: +2/+2/+1/+1/+1 26: +2/+2/+2/+1/+1 27: +2/+2/+2/+2/+1 28: +2/+2/+2/+2/+2 29: +3/+2/+2/+2/+2 30: +3/+3/+2/+2/+2 Obviously, each slash represents the level separation (4, 8, 12, 16, 20). And yes, these points are in addition to whatever stat you decide to place a point into. Choice 2 automatically qualifies you for the new feat (which MUST be taken). Prodigy Prerequisites: An 18 in three or more stats OR at least one "extended" stat. Description: You are well-known throughout the world as a Prodigy; a person who has excelled at great tasks that even your peers could not accomplish in their wildest dreams. As a Prodigy, people tend to recognize you on-sight. You receive a +10 on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks, as many people know of your exploits and your capabilities. Also, as a Prodigy, any monster/person with an Intelligence of 4 or greater receives a free lore check at the beginning of battle to recognize you (at a +10; the DM may set the DC at whatever they desire). If the check is successful, the attackers are drawn to the character, as if struck by a reverse of the Repulsion spell. They will go to any length to harm the character, even trudging through threatened squares without concern for their own health if there is no other way. If the path to the character is completely blocked off, they will instead attack the nearest obstacle to the character. Special: This feat is granted automatically upon meeting the prerequisites. I was also thinking of creating a "Full Prodigy" version for people with an 18 in 5 or 6 stats, or 3 or more extended stats that would increase the Diplomacy and Intimidate checks by another +10 (total +20) and that monsters do not need to make Lore/Knowledge checks to recognize the character, even going to the point of ambushing an entire town to get to the character. However, that is up for everyone else... Okay, please critique honestly and fairly. I know the system is overly complex, but the fun itself lies in the rolling of the stats themselves. Simply sit down and try it for about 5-10 minutes and you might find yourself addicted to the method.
Fatalis_902 11-17-07, 11:07 PM	It's an interesting method, I'll give you that much. But with that, it would be very easy to get an obscenely powerful character. You mentioned instituting a "nothing lower than 8" rule, because you didn't want people to have characters so abysmally bad at something that they would be bored almost immediately after character creation. The same can happen with stats that are likely to appear with your method. Of course, that's just opinion. As for the mechanical aspects, make certain that everyone is using it, or else it will likely cause balance issues if two players are using it and two aren't.
Sol_Odlanier 11-17-07, 11:44 PM	- I just let my players roll 2d4s and ad 10
Board_Rider 11-18-07, 12:36 AM	Damn thats powerful! I really the the extended growth path idea.
Grumman 11-18-07, 12:54 AM	Prodigy Prerequisites: An 18 in three or more stats OR at least one "extended" stat. Description: You are well-known throughout the world as a Prodigy; a person who has excelled at great tasks that even your peers could not accomplish in their wildest dreams. As a Prodigy, people tend to recognize you on-sight. You receive a +10 on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks, as many people know of your exploits and your capabilities. Also, as a Prodigy, any monster/person with an Intelligence of 4 or greater receives a free lore check at the beginning of battle to recognize you (at a +10; the DM may set the DC at whatever they desire). If the check is successful, the attackers are drawn to the character, as if struck by a reverse of the Repulsion spell. They will go to any length to harm the character, even trudging through threatened squares without concern for their own health if there is no other way. If the path to the character is completely blocked off, they will instead attack the nearest obstacle to the character. Special: This feat is granted automatically upon meeting the prerequisites. A horrible, horrible idea. Not only do they get the benefit of five (admittedly weak) feats for the price of one, they get a Stupidity Field to go with it, which makes previously intelligent creatures run like lemmings through whatever traps or threatened squares lie between you and them. To make your idea even worse, the more intelligent the opponent is, the more likely they are to be affected. Would NPCs also be forced to take this feat, if they qualify?
CDTalmas 11-18-07, 01:28 AM	It's an interesting method, I'll give you that much. But with that, it would be very easy to get an obscenely powerful character. You mentioned instituting a "nothing lower than 8" rule, because you didn't want people to have characters so abysmally bad at something that they would be bored almost immediately after character creation. The same can happen with stats that are likely to appear with your method. Of course, that's just opinion. As for the mechanical aspects, make certain that everyone is using it, or else it will likely cause balance issues if two players are using it and two aren't. Agreed on both counts. Having a character with low stats in anything creates a lack of desire to play that character, as would a person playing with an obscenely high-stat character (after a while, anyhow; where's the challenge?). Regarding having everyone utilize this method, you'll hear no disparity from me there. I, when using this method, require all players to utilize it... I've had a little complaint about the complexity before, but that actually quickly disappeared when they realized the possibilities that are available. - I just let my players roll 2d4s and ad 10 A method I hadn't considered before... but I know my luck with d4's -.-; I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I'd be lucky to roll 3 or 4 with that method! I'm just that bad with d4's. Still, I'll keep that in mind when I start any new campaigns. Perhaps give the players a choice between the methods and see which they'd like, even giving them trial rolls to try them all out. Damn thats powerful! I really the the extended growth path idea. It most certainly can be! However, I wanted those with powerful stats to have a drawback; hence the feat (given the poster below's response, I may modify it slightly). I prefer for adventurers to have a reason to be out and about. To be fit and worthwhile in most (if not all) aspects of their life. As far as the Extended Growth, it truly makes a person a Prodigy. Having a stat that continues to grow without much intervention on the character's part (aka, some people are just born lucky) makes them stand out from others and tends to make them well known. And well-known characters are talked about... with stories spreading like wildfire! A horrible, horrible idea. Not only do they get the benefit of five (admittedly weak) feats for the price of one, they get a Stupidity Field to go with it, which makes previously intelligent creatures run like lemmings through whatever traps or threatened squares lie between you and them. To make your idea even worse, the more intelligent the opponent is, the more likely they are to be affected. Would NPCs also be forced to take this feat, if they qualify? I understand your point of view on the feat and am thinking of tweaking it to a degree. How about a change of wording? Instead of rushing straight for the character(s), their attacks will focus solely on the Prodigy. This means that ranged attacks will target them, spells will have them as the center-point, and melee attackers will attempt to close in to them safely... and this is all "whenever possible." It could also mean that the NPCs are more prepared to deal with the character. They may know certain weaknesses, preparing certain spells in advance, keeping certain weapons on-hand, even to the point of knowing enough about the companions to realize how to get around the group's best defenses. The entire point I was trying to make with the feat was that with these awesome abilities comes extreme danger. It can actually be modified in many ways! It's simple enough to say that the NPCs know about the PC, heard they were in the area, and prepared for them. You can go into more complexities, but I figured the dice-rolling method was complex enough ^^ As for NPCs, you better believe that they, too, are subject to the feat. A tyrant, growing in power, gains companions and/or lackeys in great number. Certainly people are going to know of it. Information gets leaked. Thank you, though, for being a strong critic. I'm often seen as a bit of an eccentric in my ideas and I like to hear as many perspectives as possible.
Romtos 11-18-07, 06:33 AM	Not that complex. Interesting method. However, I'm still affraid that there will be major power imbalances from PC to PC. Is this an issue with this method?
Escef 11-18-07, 06:40 AM	I understand your point of view on the feat and am thinking of tweaking it to a degree. How about a change of wording? Instead of rushing straight for the character(s), their attacks will focus solely on the Prodigy. So, a character who recognizes the prodigy throws tactics to the wind? I don't like it. And once again, the smartest characters are the most susceptible. This makes no sense. Maybe a Will save? But right here you are making each opponent make 2 rolls. This will slow down the game. A lot. Further, you are rewarding a character for having high ability scores. High ability scores are their own reward, they don't need anything more to make them seem like good things.
CDTalmas 11-18-07, 07:37 AM	Not that complex. Interesting method. However, I'm still affraid that there will be major power imbalances from PC to PC. Is this an issue with this method? Not as much as you might think. A good 75% of the time (that I and others have rolled), average stats are created. The remaining 25% of the time, 80% of those do not reach Prodigy status unless the "Extended Growth" option pops up. So, a character who recognizes the prodigy throws tactics to the wind? I don't like it. And once again, the smartest characters are the most susceptible. This makes no sense. Maybe a Will save? But right here you are making each opponent make 2 rolls. This will slow down the game. A lot. Further, you are rewarding a character for having high ability scores. High ability scores are their own reward, they don't need anything more to make them seem like good things. Tactics to the wind? o.O Would an assassin throw tactics to the wind to kill a single person in a party? Generally, one who would provide the largest threat? Lemme try giving you a bit more detail about what I mean exactly. There's a Party: The Adventurers. The Adventurers are composed of Member A, Member B, Member C (Prodigy), and Member D. They are composed of the standard adventuring block--Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard (Prodigy). BBEG has heard that Member C has stepped into town with a few buddies (information gets passed around quickly when such well-known folks pop up; and scrying and spies help too). Now, BBEG knows that Member C has great potential to overthrow him and his evil plans... so it's time to devise a strategy. He knows that Member C likes to scout ahead with scrying spells of his own and so thinks to fool him with illusionary/redirecting magicks. He knows of the resistances that Member C has by doing a quick bit of research. The BBEG gains knowledge of the party before they're even told about the villainous goblin encampment that may be holding a hydra egg there. And so, the BBEG is prepared... and he shares this knowledge and plans to those under his command. They, in turn, are prepared. See where I'm going? It's hardly time-consuming to make a single lore check for a set of creatures (who have a very high chance of recognizing the Prodigy), especially if they already know that the Prodigy is on the way... It's just a matter of recognition to put certain plans into action. Also, think more along the lines of this little excerpt of one possible encounter: "That man... He is the Prodigy of Salvarn! Kill him quickly! Let him speak not a word! Destroy any who get in your way!" And suddenly the Wizard has spells, arrows, darts, and gods-know-what else being thrown at him and his companions.
Otto the Bugbear 11-18-07, 07:58 AM	I started reading this, lost interest rapidly, and realized my first response if I were a player in your game would be, "Can I just use 28 point buy instead?" K.I.S.S. and all that jazz.
molten_dragon 11-18-07, 08:48 AM	I agree with the others in that this has the potential for amazing abuse. The +10 bonus on diplomacy and intimidate is too much, especially at low levels, maybe a scaling bonus of +1 per 4 or 5 character levels might be okay. The stats rolled will tend to be quite high (which is okay if you want a high powered game, but there are other perfectly valid high powered rolling methods). However, the aggro effect of the Prodigy feat is just stupid. It doesn't make any sense for normally intelligent creatures to forgo smart tactics just because they recognize one of the characters. Look at it a different way and you might see how it can really hurt the opposition. Say the party is fighting a large group of intelligent, but lower-powered foes than themselves. Hobgoblins or goblins work nicely (and come to mind readily since I'm running red hand of doom right now). The party is outnumbered 3 or 4 to one, which makes the fight dangerous since even though the individual foes are not very powerful, it'll be easy for the party to get swamped. However, if the party wizard is able to unleash his powerful AoE spells on the monsters, he'll be able to wipe them out quite quickly. The hobgoblins are aware of the party and the abilities of the PCs, and therefore know that they need to focus their attacks on the wizard to disrupt his spellcasting if they are to survive (Which is sound tactics). Unfortunately for them the party fighter rolled a 19 CON, giving him the prodigy feat. Now, they must focus all of their attacks on the fighter instead of the wizard, who is a far greater threat to them (this is poor tactics since the fighter can only kill one of them at a time, whereas a fireball can kill lots of them at once). If you left out that part and lowered the bonuses to intimidate and diplomacy it wouldn't be a bad feat. Why not just change it so that if the enemy succeeds on a knowledge check (and you should specify what type of knowledge check it needs to be, there's no such skill as "Lore" in D&D), then they recognize the character and know some of his strengths and weaknesses (this works well since the PCs already can do the same thing with knowledge checks about monsters). So when you got done, it would look something like this. Prodigy Prerequisites: An 18 in three or more stats OR at least one "extended" stat. Description: You are well-known throughout the world as a Prodigy; a person who has excelled at great tasks that even your peers could not accomplish in their wildest dreams. As a Prodigy, people tend to recognize you on-sight. You receive a bonus on diplomacy and intimidate checks equal to your level divided by 4 (rounded down). Also, as a Prodigy, any monster/person with an Intelligence of 3 or greater receives a free knowledge (local) check when they first meet you to recognize you. The DC of this check is equal to 20 - your character level. For every 5 points by which the check result exceeds the DC, they also know one piece of pertinent information about you. (For example, a mage's preference for fire spells, a warrior's favorite battle tactics, any special attacks or defensive abilities you might have, etc.) Special: This feat is granted automatically upon meeting the prerequisites.
Escef 11-18-07, 08:52 AM	Tactics to the wind? o.O Would an assassin throw tactics to the wind to kill a single person in a party? Generally, one who would provide the largest threat? Yes, all of my attacks are on Mr. Prodigy. Which means I am largely dismissing the idea of dealing with the other party members. "Oh, the Wizard Prodigy! Let's attack him and ignore the rest of the party, who will flank and buff and slaughter us!" Yes, that's throwing tactics to the wind. It's hardly time-consuming to make a single lore check for a set of creatures (who have a very high chance of recognizing the Prodigy), especially if they already know that the Prodigy is on the way... It's just a matter of recognition to put certain plans into action. No, not time consuming at all to roll checks at the start of every combat for every enemy involved. Especially useless when you basically have nearly gaurenteed they make the check anyway. A free feat that puts the game on "Easy"? When you already have great stats? Heck, Why not just make the prodigy a barbarian with as many HP and AC buffs as possible? He'll survive the attacks directed at him while his allies destroy the enemy with near impunity.
CDTalmas 11-18-07, 02:34 PM	I started reading this, lost interest rapidly, and realized my first response if I were a player in your game would be, "Can I just use 28 point buy instead?" K.I.S.S. and all that jazz. I apologize that the system was not to your liking. I agree with the others in that this has the potential for amazing abuse. The +10 bonus on diplomacy and intimidate is too much, especially at low levels, maybe a scaling bonus of +1 per 4 or 5 character levels might be okay. The stats rolled will tend to be quite high (which is okay if you want a high powered game, but there are other perfectly valid high powered rolling methods). However, the aggro effect of the Prodigy feat is just stupid. It doesn't make any sense for normally intelligent creatures to forgo smart tactics just because they recognize one of the characters. Look at it a different way and you might see how it can really hurt the opposition. Say the party is fighting a large group of intelligent, but lower-powered foes than themselves. Hobgoblins or goblins work nicely (and come to mind readily since I'm running red hand of doom right now). The party is outnumbered 3 or 4 to one, which makes the fight dangerous since even though the individual foes are not very powerful, it'll be easy for the party to get swamped. However, if the party wizard is able to unleash his powerful AoE spells on the monsters, he'll be able to wipe them out quite quickly. The hobgoblins are aware of the party and the abilities of the PCs, and therefore know that they need to focus their attacks on the wizard to disrupt his spellcasting if they are to survive (Which is sound tactics). Unfortunately for them the party fighter rolled a 19 CON, giving him the prodigy feat. Now, they must focus all of their attacks on the fighter instead of the wizard, who is a far greater threat to them (this is poor tactics since the fighter can only kill one of them at a time, whereas a fireball can kill lots of them at once). If you left out that part and lowered the bonuses to intimidate and diplomacy it wouldn't be a bad feat. Why not just change it so that if the enemy succeeds on a knowledge check (and you should specify what type of knowledge check it needs to be, there's no such skill as "Lore" in D&D), then they recognize the character and know some of his strengths and weaknesses (this works well since the PCs already can do the same thing with knowledge checks about monsters). So when you got done, it would look something like this. Prodigy Prerequisites: An 18 in three or more stats OR at least one "extended" stat. Description: You are well-known throughout the world as a Prodigy; a person who has excelled at great tasks that even your peers could not accomplish in their wildest dreams. As a Prodigy, people tend to recognize you on-sight. You receive a bonus on diplomacy and intimidate checks equal to your level divided by 4 (rounded down). Also, as a Prodigy, any monster/person with an Intelligence of 3 or greater receives a free knowledge (local) check when they first meet you to recognize you. The DC of this check is equal to 20 - your character level. For every 5 points by which the check result exceeds the DC, they also know one piece of pertinent information about you. (For example, a mage's preference for fire spells, a warrior's favorite battle tactics, any special attacks or defensive abilities you might have, etc.) Special: This feat is granted automatically upon meeting the prerequisites. I see where you're coming from regarding the Diplomacy/Intimidate check. Mayhaps a bonus equal to this: (total unspent stat points + class level)/4. Of course, the "unspent stat points" would remain static as whatever it was at first level. Those with three 18's could have a static 1 value. Now, with those tactics described above, I understand where the problem is stemming from. Hmm... I'm trying as hard as I can to put it in the proper words. Let's try another way. The bad guys recognize the character. They KNOW that he's a threat to their plans and seek to destroy him. They ALSO, with a high enough check, know that he travels with a powerful wizard and cleric and so quickly devise a "pathing plan" to the character. Any one character that has all attacks pointed at them quickly falls, and so the enemy seeks to take care of that by dispatching the Prodigy's support members. So, that fighter with the CON 19, a rather well-known individual in his starting home and most places he goes to, will be under attack... but probably by round 3 or 4. I see enemy tactics improving, not declining, with such a feat. As far as a "lore" check, heh... I've been playing too much NWN >.>;; (although I do believe "Bardic Knowledge" would apply as a Lore check). Yes, it would of course be a Knowledge check. Most likely Knowledge (Local) or Knowledge (History), depending on how old the character is. And, as mentioned above, Bardic Knowledge will quite be allowed as another form of check. Regarding your modification to the feat description, might I try adding that the enemy would gain pertinent information about not just you, but the party members that follow you? After all, it is quite tactically sound to know your foe... and his team! Thank you for those awesome suggestions. I'm going to think about how to change the text to reflect most of your posted suggestions. It shouldn't be too much and gives a far more balanced approach to the topic, even with those possibly high stats. Also, I hope you'll still reply... I had one more question. Do you think the enemies should receive a bonus to their initiative checks based on the character with the Prodigy feat's bonus? Yes, all of my attacks are on Mr. Prodigy. Which means I am largely dismissing the idea of dealing with the other party members. "Oh, the Wizard Prodigy! Let's attack him and ignore the rest of the party, who will flank and buff and slaughter us!" Yes, that's throwing tactics to the wind. No, not time consuming at all to roll checks at the start of every combat for every enemy involved. Especially useless when you basically have nearly gaurenteed they make the check anyway. A free feat that puts the game on "Easy"? When you already have great stats? Heck, Why not just make the prodigy a barbarian with as many HP and AC buffs as possible? He'll survive the attacks directed at him while his allies destroy the enemy with near impunity. Please see my post above your quote regarding probable changes to the feat description. Again, I've agreed that charging head on towards the character isn't the wisest choice. The quote you've written is a bit off. Try this: "It's the wizard Prodigy and his companions! Set up positions! Mow him and his friends down quickly!" Again, the party is being taken into account. Weaknesses are found prior if enough information is spread of the party's whereabouts, meaning that the enemies are more prepared for the party. They know to split up in the case of fireball or flame strike attacks, to stay clear of one-on-one's with the fighter (even to the point of putting traps about the camp if they know far enough in advance), and to watch out for the rogue (Wait a minute... shouldn't there be FOUR of them?! That sneak is missing!). Regarding the lore check, I roll a d20 for all creatures. One roll. I'm a large-group, single check DM (with the exception of multiple creature types; then I just roll one dice for each creature type during initiative). The Barbarian would certainly be foolhardy with his 19 CON to rush up and try to attack all those spread out enemies, as would the Wizard attempting to fireball a small group of them. As is, I don't consider the feat to be a "turn the game on easy" one. The enemies start utilizing more tactics, start more prepared than the PCs, and may know the PCs' weaknesses.
CDTalmas 11-28-07, 08:37 PM	First off, I just want to declare that the dice rolling method IS, in fact, for a high-powered campaign. You can expect monsters to be difficult no matter what you run into. Next, after much deliberation, here's the revised "Prodigy" feat: Prodigy Prerequisites: An 18 in three or more stats OR at least one "extended" stat. Description: You are well-known throughout the world as a Prodigy; a person who has excelled at great tasks that even your peers could not accomplish in their wildest dreams. As a Prodigy, people tend to recognize you on-sight. You receive a bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks equal to the following: Bonus = ((20 - Level)/4) + USP *USP - Total unspent stat points from Level 1 Also, as a Prodigy, any monster/person with an Intelligence of 4 or greater receives a free Intelligence/Knowledge check at the beginning of battle to recognize you (DC set by the DM; recommended to take into account the Diplomacy/Intimidate bonuses for guideline). If the check is successful, the attackers will gain a tactical advantage over the character and his/her party, having been prepared for the party's arrival. This may include knowledge of the character's available buffs, their equipment, and/or their weaknesses and vulnerabilities. (For a DM to prepare for such advantages, it is highly recommended that he or she keep a record of the party's equipment and available spells; the DM may then substitute out spells that a monster has prepared for the day, spell-like abilities, and certain weapons/armor to help actively fight the PCs more effectively) Special: This feat is granted automatically upon meeting the prerequisites. I won't deny that this makes a bit more work for the DM, but for thorough DMs, it should be a breeze.
Grumman 11-28-07, 11:52 PM	The bonus you give for Diplomacy and Intimidate is still flawed: it is complex, and means that people will become less skilled in diplomacy and less intimidating as they level, if they have one or more extended stats above 24, or two or more above 19. Moving on to the penalty, as Robert Newman said, "If you are the most famous spy, you are the worst." If your specialisation means that nobody can see or scry you (such as a Illithid Slayer/Shadowdancer, or you simply leave no survivors to tell of your exploits, or have never revealed your wild-card, being a prodigy would make it less likely that people have learnt about you. By your rules, there's no difference between a bard who has an entire town wrapped around his little finger and and assassin who has never even been sensed by anyone but his mentor. In addition, what makes you think that stats are going to be the thing that attracts attention? It isn't the wizard with superhuman Int, Wis and Dex that's going to turn heads, it's the wizard that can rend the very fabric of reality with level 9 spells.
CDTalmas 11-29-07, 06:02 AM	Holy cow! What was I thinking when I posted that equation o.O;; Um... here's a revised equation: Bonus = ((20 plus Level)/4)) + USP The bonus you give for Diplomacy and Intimidate is still flawed: it is complex, and means that people will become less skilled in diplomacy and less intimidating as they level, if they have one or more extended stats above 24, or two or more above 19. Moving on to the penalty, as Robert Newman said, "If you are the most famous spy, you are the worst." If your specialisation means that nobody can see or scry you (such as a Illithid Slayer/Shadowdancer, or you simply leave no survivors to tell of your exploits, or have never revealed your wild-card, being a prodigy would make it less likely that people have learnt about you. By your rules, there's no difference between a bard who has an entire town wrapped around his little finger and and assassin who has never even been sensed by anyone but his mentor. In addition, what makes you think that stats are going to be the thing that attracts attention? It isn't the wizard with superhuman Int, Wis and Dex that's going to turn heads, it's the wizard that can rend the very fabric of reality with level 9 spells. Regarding the "non-detection specialization", stories spread regardless. Who snuck into the king's vault? Who slew the baron? Who poisoned the well that caused an entire village to simply... disappear? There is no possible way for something to happen and for absolutely no one to realize it. These are called "exploits." Soon enough, speculation starts. Investigations are pursued, leading back to the character's background. Heck, "stealth" itself becomes a pattern! (Also, the DM knows of the character's exploits; to say that there aren't badder (read: not bigger) individuals out there who have their own methods is just ridiculous. One other thing of note is that the Prodigy could become infamous in name alone. Not in appearance [you might be able to exchange Diplomacy for Bluff if you so desired such a secret-ish character]) Regarding the statistics, I could give an opposite example. What if it IS the wizard who doesn't just rend reality with level 9 spells? What if he's so attuned to the arcane that none can escape his will? Y'know that Rogue with the Evasion feat? He just can't seem to dodge those fireballs... Or how about that fighter who thought he had the polymorph DC down pat now living life as a dog? Or maybe the most powerful enchanter in the world today just can't seem to influence this arcane character, no matter how many spells he slings at him? And the arrows just seem to fly by with but a single sidestep! There are many different flavors you can give to the untapped statistics of the characters.
Escef 11-29-07, 06:35 AM	I think the character needs to have a truly extraordinary ability other than high stats to be a prodigy. Seriously, you don't become widely known unless your stats are freakishly inhuman (e.g.: an 8 year old child with a 22 Str), or you've done something difficult at an early age with little to no training (14 year old who's never studied magic before memorizes and casts a 1st level spell). Even so, it is more than possible that only those within a certain circle of expertise have ever heard of the individual in question. And there are no stats so high, even under your system, that the character can't be out done by someone with slightly lower stats and more levels. In other words, the label of prodigy needs to be more special than simply having stats as if one were genetically engineered. It needs to come with a genuine achievement. Which you just plain don't have at first level. I think you'd be best off scrapping the whole idea and building a renown system.
Grumman 11-29-07, 07:30 AM	Regarding the "non-detection specialization", stories spread regardless. Who snuck into the king's vault? Who slew the baron? Who poisoned the well that caused an entire village to simply... disappear? There is no possible way for something to happen and for absolutely no one to realize it. The important word here is "who". Even if people learn about things the character has done, they cannot determine that it was the character who was responsible, unless they can use eyewitnesses, scrying or investigation. Immunity to scrying is available, and the other two methods can be circumvented by mundane means. These are called "exploits." Soon enough, speculation starts. Investigations are pursued, leading back to the character's background. Heck, "stealth" itself becomes a pattern! A pattern that could have been achieved by any number of individuals, by any number of means. Y'know that Rogue with the Evasion feat? He just can't seem to dodge those fireballs... Or how about that fighter who thought he had the polymorph DC down pat now living life as a dog? Neither of these individuals would be in any position to spread the character's reputation, would they?
kuonji 11-29-07, 08:58 AM	What about NPCs who's stats qualify them for Prodigy? Do the PCs then get free checks to know all about your BBEG? I'm assuming you are using the same stat generation for primary villians as you are for PCs. If the PCs do get the check, it stands to reason that at least one of them would roll high enough to know all they need to know and then your BBEG becomes less powerful. "Ah, it's Evil Joe the Wizard. I believe his buffs are .... and oh, don't forget about his rogue friend Invisible Frank; Frank usually starts off in that corner over there."
CDTalmas 11-29-07, 05:24 PM	I think the character needs to have a truly extraordinary ability other than high stats to be a prodigy. Seriously, you don't become widely known unless your stats are freakishly inhuman (e.g.: an 8 year old child with a 22 Str), or you've done something difficult at an early age with little to no training (14 year old who's never studied magic before memorizes and casts a 1st level spell). Even so, it is more than possible that only those within a certain circle of expertise have ever heard of the individual in question. And there are no stats so high, even under your system, that the character can't be out done by someone with slightly lower stats and more levels. In other words, the label of prodigy needs to be more special than simply having stats as if one were genetically engineered. It needs to come with a genuine achievement. Which you just plain don't have at first level. I think you'd be best off scrapping the whole idea and building a renown system. Often-times, people just starting out of the gate do NOT have super-human abilities. They're usually young, sometimes below the recommended starting ages. Now, tell me, what's this 15-year-old boy doing lifting up stranded wagons? Why's he so insanely smart and wise? Why can he evade the local police after shoplifting each and every single time? What I'm trying to say about the stats is that those stats HAVE been put to use! The character has shown others his incredible strength, his agility, his overwhelming personality... All of the above. Regardless of the character's back story, people knew of his abilities and news spread 'round. (The 14-year-old who memorizes and cast a 1st level spell really isn't that far-fetched from what I'm reaching toward; thanks for the good example) Of course, yes. A higher-level person has the advantage of experience and a multitude of power. Think of a Prodigy as a person with untapped potential waiting to burst forth. The renown system, on the other hand, isn't a bad idea... That I'll take into consideration. Thanks. The important word here is "who". Even if people learn about things the character has done, they cannot determine that it was the character who was responsible, unless they can use eyewitnesses, scrying or investigation. Immunity to scrying is available, and the other two methods can be circumvented by mundane means. A pattern that could have been achieved by any number of individuals, by any number of means. Neither of these individuals would be in any position to spread the character's reputation, would they? First, given magical abilities, if someone desperately wants to find someone else, they can do so. There's always a trail, no matter how much the character doesn't try to leave one. Also, as a DM, I don't see why having a tracker follow the PC (or NPC) would be impossible. The hunter becoming the hunted? It's possible the person missed someone in an entire massacred town and that person is seeking revenge. Dedicating his or her life to stalking down the mass murderer and bringing them to justice... or vengeance. About the "pattern": It happens once, it's a fluke. It happens twice, it's a coincidence. It happens ten times? It's a path. And finally, who's to say that there weren't any survivors of the battle? Who's to say that there wasn't someone watching over the dashing fighter just as he's changed into a harmless animal? I'm not seeing the argument that a DM cannot overcome with the rules or even Rule 0, if push comes to shove. What about NPCs who's stats qualify them for Prodigy? Do the PCs then get free checks to know all about your BBEG? I'm assuming you are using the same stat generation for primary villians as you are for PCs. If the PCs do get the check, it stands to reason that at least one of them would roll high enough to know all they need to know and then your BBEG becomes less powerful. "Ah, it's Evil Joe the Wizard. I believe his buffs are .... and oh, don't forget about his rogue friend Invisible Frank; Frank usually starts off in that corner over there." NPCs are just as much prone to be Prodigies as PCs are. The thing about the check is that, at the beginning of an adventure, I have the PCs roll Knowledge checks (or INT checks, if they have no Knowledge skills). Then, it's easy to say... "You've heard that there's a wizard by the name of Evil Joe in the area. He slaughtered a town not far from here, using lots of fire spells. He travels with a rogue who likes to sneak up behind the enemy all the time using a ring of invisibility. He also has several lackeys. Goblins, for the most part, and an ogre mage who's training under him. The city guard tried to attack him using their local wizard guild, but their spells just couldn't seem to penetrate some magical barrier surrounding him (spells of level 3 and lower?)." And depending on how high their knowledge/INT check is, they can gain more useful information, such as his penchant for creating Brooches of Shielding for his friends, his staff that he carries with him, his Cloak of Displacement, etc. ALSO! When the group eventually runs into said NPC, they gain the Knowledge/INT check once more. They gain the above information just in time to fight him... but they're far less prepared than if they'd made their check at the beginning (spell selections, equipment purchases, etc.).
Otto the Bugbear 11-29-07, 09:25 PM	I apologize that the system was not to your liking. :) You don't have to apologize. I'm just saying it's something to consider before implementing a system that's really that much more complex. In the end, if you and the players are happy with it, well then :cool:
Grumman 11-29-07, 09:58 PM	CDTalmas: First, it is dishonest to create NPCs after the fact who somehow survived the unsurvivable, and amazingly passed all their spot checks to correctly identify the people responsible. Second, even if you're willing to use your position as DM to engineer such 'coincidences', there are means available which make it completely impossible to find an individual. Not "untrackable, unless someone more skilled comes along", completely untrackable. How do you propose that you would find someone who is immune to magical detection, and who can teleport?
CDTalmas 12-01-07, 03:40 AM	:) You don't have to apologize. I'm just saying it's something to consider before implementing a system that's really that much more complex. In the end, if you and the players are happy with it, well then :cool: Thank you for this response. At first, it seemed like you gave a tl;dr response to the idea. I'm happy that you expanded upon the reasoning behind it. And actually, every person I've spoken to agreed that it was complex as hell... but after rolling it for a few minutes found the flavor and fun in the system. I even had MtG players (read: non-D&D players) rolling up stats just because it was fun and helped pass the time. CDTalmas: First, it is dishonest to create NPCs after the fact who somehow survived the unsurvivable, and amazingly passed all their spot checks to correctly identify the people responsible. Second, even if you're willing to use your position as DM to engineer such 'coincidences', there are means available which make it completely impossible to find an individual. Not "untrackable, unless someone more skilled comes along", completely untrackable. How do you propose that you would find someone who is immune to magical detection, and who can teleport? You should tell that to most movie-makers >.>;; But on the serious note, I understand the frustration. However, if a DM allowed a player to be completely untrackable in any form or fashion (aka, capable of destroying the world from the shadows), then the DM deserves the punishment that creates. To say, though, that NPCs cannot exist that the player missed is rather silly. Now, if you roleplayed out the entire scenario and counted the number of NPC deaths, I would not alter that number. Nor would I create NPCs just for the sake of having the PC known. However, I will be recording each and every minute detail about the way the townspeople are killed. The way the town was slaughtered. Little trademarks that pop up. Put simply, these events will become unique enough that the individual causing such events will be recognized. By sight? No. By pattern? Yes. Another alternative is that the bonuses are changed into penalties and vice versa. Imagine, for a moment, that people distrust you on sight... You receive major penalties to Diplomacy and Bluff equal to the bonuses to Diplomacy and Intimidate and very few people know ANYTHING about your character in return. (Of course, the fact that you're bringing the issue up multiple times means that the feat needs to be altered a bit... Something to do with widespread knowledge about the character. Maybe "Hidden Prodigy." However, the idea of Prodigy is that there is a drawback for having such high statistics. There is a backlash, if you will. You're free to alter the feat as you see fit depending on the type of character that you want to create) Also, one last thing about teleportation... In one of my campaigns, there is a monitor. A "Hall of Records", if you will. Every teleportation everywhere is recorded, like a cell phone. Incoming, outgoing, etc. They do nothing with this knowledge. However, many magistrates and kings of all countries have mages that are capable of accessing these records. The stealthiest person in the world may wish to avoid teleportation... at least in that campaign.