Cutting Out The Equivalent Character Level (ECL) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cutting Out The Equivalent Character Level (ECL) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Auria12
02-22-06, 12:08 PM While I personally like many of the changes that came with 3/3.5 D&D, one of my pet peeves is the aspect of the Equivalent Character Level system in the game. In 2nd edition D&D, there was no such controls, and it worked just fine. If you wanted to play an Ogre, you dam well could, while still keeping up with the rest of the party. Basically what was allowed in a D&D game was up to the Dungeon Master. If it was OK with the DM to play an Ogre, Giant or whatever you could. This control worked just fine for a gaming system, until the thrid edition came out.

Equivalent Character Level now makes it pratically impossible for PC's to play as exotic races and characters. The use of ECL's also don't really make sence to me. Not all races are created equal in my opinion. There are races that are stronger than humanoids, that's a given, but that dosen't mean that they can't achieve anything character wise in a D&D game. Most people don't take ECL characters because they advance so slow that they are not worth playing as PC's. Trying to control races by putting ECL's out really just dosen't make sence to me. What makes even less sence is the "Savage Species" Racial character levels. Where suddenly you have to play as a "Baby Centaur" and age to adulthood after a few CL's, which in game could only be a few months, but in pratically it takes years for a centaur to age to adulthood. Another problem with ECL is that it makes it IMPOSSIBLE to play monster or high powered campaigns. I once had an idea of playing an All Celestial game, of a number of celestials chosen to go to a prime world on a mission. The game could never work because the $*@#&$ ECL of the game made it impossible to do so. Suffice to say, I believe ECL's don't need to be used in a D&D game. Allowing or disallowing powerful or exotic races is simple enough to control by the Dungeon Master. If the PC's certainly agree that a 1st level Human fighter can fight along with a 1st level centaur fighter, despite the power level differences, then by all means, I say allow it. All races are NOT created equal, that is true, but it dosen't mean that Every Single Member of a powerful race should advance slower than a regular 0 ECL PC. After all PC's are supposed to be special. Heck I remember playing in a game, where an NPC (Yes a RPGA Sanctioned character at that!) was some Rather intelligent Ogre Magi with a good deal of character levels. Using ECL's you probably could not have created a character like that as a PC due to ECL restrictions.

In the end, the game can be controlled well enough without using ECL's. A DM just has to decide what they want in their campaign. One does not need a compliated ECL formula to make things more complicated.
Dhampir
02-22-06, 12:24 PM I found a way, I like, for getting rid of LAs and ECLs. For everything you give them, take something else way. I've done it in my own homebrew worlds and my d20 suppliments as soon as I get the company up...
CannibalSmith
02-22-06, 12:46 PM If you make it
ECL = Just Level Adjustement
then many high HD monsters become much more powerful than human PCs. If it's an all-monster party, then it's okay. I once played a dragon like this. He had impossibly high Base Attack, saves, hitpoints and feat count.

ECL = Monser HD + Level Adjustement
One Monster HD is marginally weaker than a level in a PC class. You get all the skills and feats and all that good stuff.

What actually makes monsters weaker than humans of equal ECL is the lack of focus (min-maxing). A 13th level figher is a killing machine, a 13th level sorcerer is a walking artillery. Gold dragon wyrmling (ECL 13) is medicore fighter and poor caster.

And I'm also playing an incubus by using monster class - feels like a sorcerer totally maxed out for charm magic. I like.
DanjaNinja
02-22-06, 01:35 PM Auria12, I'm not sure you entirely understand ECL and Level Adjustments. They're there as a guideline, so that a DM can easily see that this creature is roughly as powerful as a character with that many PC levels. It's not a restriction unless the DM makes it so. If you're fine with a level 1 Bugbear Fighter next to a level 1 Human Fighter, more power to you.
Lord Ian Stark
02-23-06, 10:44 AM Auria ECL is based on the 3.5 rules for gaining experience through CR.

What I mean is if you have a Level 1 human Ftr with 12HP BaB +1 fighting alongside a Level 1 Centaur Ftr with 40HP BaB +5, a CR of Lvl 1 - 3 is a cakewalk and throws the entire EXP chart out the window.

That's fine if you don't want to use ECL in your games but be prepared to change the entire experience chart. Because if you throw a CR 5 monster at at the two characters above, the Centaur would barely break a sweat while the human Ftr would propbrably be killed within a round or two.

Something to think about.
CannibalSmith
02-23-06, 10:57 AM throws the entire EXP chart out the window. That's what our DM did. Literally! :D

XP should not be awarded for frags, imho.
rubendogs
02-23-06, 12:38 PM That's what our DM did. Literally! :D

XP should not be awarded for frags, imho.
AMEN.

Except in Hack n' slash adventures, the XP chart shouldn't be the PC primary XP source. A Dm should be dishing out XP for roleplaying, creativity, and even things like focus (a big problem in my group). If you're player can make his character feel like a living being, then he should be rewarded for it, even if all he's done is kill a single goblin.

-Keith
weasel fierce
02-23-06, 09:09 PM I'd certainly say ditch it, and award XP for things other than murder.
Its not 1978 anymore
Lokathor
02-23-06, 11:51 PM It's also not so much that the Level Adjustment is making them slower, but it's showing that they're already there for as many levels as it covers. They've passed through the lower power zones and so to advance they need to face harder fights than what the HitDice count alone shows.

In my games, I've made a compromise between throwing it out and using it as is: If a race is "close enough" to a human then players can just subtract off the effects of the racial HD and play from class level 1 (remember to also take away the proper number of stat points if you take away 4 HD or more).

The Gnoll for example, doesn't have any super weird powers, so just take away the racial HD and you get:
* Strength +4, Constitution +2, Intelligence -2, Charisma -2.
* Size Medium.
* A gnoll’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* +1 natural armor bonus.
* Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc.
* Favored Class: Ranger.
* Level adjustment +1.

Quick, easy, and you get to play as all the ogres and giants you want.
rkr1970
02-24-06, 10:48 PM Actually, a form of ECL was in place in 2nd Ed. If you look in The Complete Book of Humanoids (TSR PHBR10), many "monstrous" races had a slower level advancement than "standard" races. The ogre had one of the toughest in the book, IIRC. I have to guess that this is where the whole LA & ECL came from.

Another thing to think about is that in 1st/2nd Ed, the idea of fully customizing your character was more of an afterthought than anything. Kits were "backended" into the game, the Player's Option books were meant to be used piecemeal, as were most other concepts that allowed you to have a more personalized character. The idea of playing an ogre or giant weren't really integrated into the game, and of those few books that offered such an option, only The Complete Humanoid Handbook made it a balanced possibility.

3rd Ed is all about having a unique character each and every time. Race, class(es), prestige class(es), feats, skills, and templates are tools we use to build the character we want. The trade off for such a broad range of choices is in game balance. That's why certain feats have trees, most classes require several levels before gaining more powerful abilities, and the majority of templates & races have LA & ECL. Balance!

The ECL/LA system isn't all that complicated. LA is the relative power a creature's natural abilities grant in relation to a human with class levels. ECL is the LA added to the racial HD. If you don't like the ECL, then allow the player to take the race with no racial HD. It might be a bit silly at times, since a 1st level storm giant mage could be killed by a handful of normal rats in a couple of rounds, but it balances the character against the rest of the party.

Your complaint, however, seems to be one against LA, not ECL. And if you completely remove a creature's LA from the game, then you are asking for trouble. A human fighter is much less effective in combat than an ogre fighter of the same number of class levels. In a mixed party, you are inviting a few players to control the spotlight while all the others are forced to either die horribly or sit a watch the star player mop the floor with the bad guys.

If you don't like the way it's implemented, though, then find another balanced way to use LA in your games. I agree that parts of the LA system are horribly off, since the power advantage quickly evaporates as you gain levels. But you should still have a method of demonstrating the reduced challenge that powerful races face at low levels. If you have Unearthed Arcana, I you might look at the option of allowing PCs to "buy off" their Level Adjustment. Or, you might want to write your own.

Whatever system you implement, though, it has to offer some method of balancing "standard" races against "monstrous" races in both the short term and the long. Your solution would allow powerful creatures to walk though low level encounters (or get weaker races killed off too quickly), but makes things rather equal at higher levels. The system in the RAW keeps things balanced at low level, but continues to penalize "monstrous" creatures at higher levels.

Here's a quick fix I'll offer for your approval. Require additional XP to gain a level until the character's level is equal to their LA. I would suggest something like an additional 200 XP per (LA+1 minus current level)^2 to advance. This would mean that an aasimar or tiefling wopuld have to get an additional 200 XP to gain 2nd level, a drow or ogre would need an extra 1000 XP (800 for 2nd + 200 for 3rd), but a creature like a hill giant would need an whopping 6000 XP (3200 to make 2nd, 1800 to reach 3rd, 800 for 4th, and 200 to get to 5th level).
Munchmausen
02-26-06, 06:54 PM Regarding XP charts, I will certainly agree that players should be rewarded for things other than kills, but as long as both kills and completion of story objectives remain even a significant minority of the XP given, some form of balance should be taken into account to make sure that the party is on comparable, if not equal, footing.

As for the XP penalties in 2e - I believe it was the Firbolg who had the big penalties. Something like requiring twice as much to level up as a fighter or three times as much to level up as a shaman? IIRC, ogres didn't have any such penalty.
rkr1970
02-26-06, 09:04 PM Regarding XP charts, I will certainly agree that players should be rewarded for things other than kills, but as long as both kills and completion of story objectives remain even a significant minority of the XP given, some form of balance should be taken into account to make sure that the party is on comparable, if not equal, footing.

As for the XP penalties in 2e - I believe it was the Firbolg who had the big penalties. Something like requiring twice as much to level up as a fighter or three times as much to level up as a shaman? IIRC, ogres didn't have any such penalty.
I forgot about firbolgs! They did have a nasty penalty. I thought ogres, fremlins, and a few other things had penalties as well, though. I would look it up, but I don't feel like digging through a bunch of dusty boxes just for a post... :D
ThorGuy
02-27-06, 01:01 AM Lord Ian Stark, I have a question: Why the heck would a Lvl. 1 Centaur Fighter be fighting alongside a Lvl. 1 Human Fighter? A Lvl. 1 Centaur Fighter has an ECL of 5, and should be fighting in a party of 5th level characters, where he would be quite happy, gaining levels at the same rate as the other members of the party.
weasel fierce
02-27-06, 01:17 AM Does centaurs magically disappear, whenever a first level fighter wanders along ?
Vaalingrade Ashland
02-27-06, 01:36 AM LA isn't the problem, its the relative sucktitude of monster HD. Keep in mind that the current system is based around making playing monsters less attractive than playing PCs.

Rule of thumb is the divide and HD above 4 by 2 before determining ECL.

So a creature with 5HD and a +2LA has ECL 7 but a monster with 9HD and +4LA has ECL 11 instead of the 13 it would have under the current system. So far, its worked well for me to actually balance the creature.
Nate Jones
02-27-06, 01:39 AM Lord Ian Stark, I have a question: Why the heck would a Lvl. 1 Centaur Fighter be fighting alongside a Lvl. 1 Human Fighter? A Lvl. 1 Centaur Fighter has an ECL of 5, and should be fighting in a party of 5th level characters, where he would be quite happy, gaining levels at the same rate as the other members of the party.

I'm pretty sure that was exactly the point he was trying to make. ECL exists so that monstrous characters can be placed in an appropriately leveled party.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Auria12 02-22-06, 12:08 PM	While I personally like many of the changes that came with 3/3.5 D&D, one of my pet peeves is the aspect of the Equivalent Character Level system in the game. In 2nd edition D&D, there was no such controls, and it worked just fine. If you wanted to play an Ogre, you dam well could, while still keeping up with the rest of the party. Basically what was allowed in a D&D game was up to the Dungeon Master. If it was OK with the DM to play an Ogre, Giant or whatever you could. This control worked just fine for a gaming system, until the thrid edition came out. Equivalent Character Level now makes it pratically impossible for PC's to play as exotic races and characters. The use of ECL's also don't really make sence to me. Not all races are created equal in my opinion. There are races that are stronger than humanoids, that's a given, but that dosen't mean that they can't achieve anything character wise in a D&D game. Most people don't take ECL characters because they advance so slow that they are not worth playing as PC's. Trying to control races by putting ECL's out really just dosen't make sence to me. What makes even less sence is the "Savage Species" Racial character levels. Where suddenly you have to play as a "Baby Centaur" and age to adulthood after a few CL's, which in game could only be a few months, but in pratically it takes years for a centaur to age to adulthood. Another problem with ECL is that it makes it IMPOSSIBLE to play monster or high powered campaigns. I once had an idea of playing an All Celestial game, of a number of celestials chosen to go to a prime world on a mission. The game could never work because the $*@#&$ ECL of the game made it impossible to do so. Suffice to say, I believe ECL's don't need to be used in a D&D game. Allowing or disallowing powerful or exotic races is simple enough to control by the Dungeon Master. If the PC's certainly agree that a 1st level Human fighter can fight along with a 1st level centaur fighter, despite the power level differences, then by all means, I say allow it. All races are NOT created equal, that is true, but it dosen't mean that Every Single Member of a powerful race should advance slower than a regular 0 ECL PC. After all PC's are supposed to be special. Heck I remember playing in a game, where an NPC (Yes a RPGA Sanctioned character at that!) was some Rather intelligent Ogre Magi with a good deal of character levels. Using ECL's you probably could not have created a character like that as a PC due to ECL restrictions. In the end, the game can be controlled well enough without using ECL's. A DM just has to decide what they want in their campaign. One does not need a compliated ECL formula to make things more complicated.
Dhampir 02-22-06, 12:24 PM	I found a way, I like, for getting rid of LAs and ECLs. For everything you give them, take something else way. I've done it in my own homebrew worlds and my d20 suppliments as soon as I get the company up...
CannibalSmith 02-22-06, 12:46 PM	If you make it ECL = Just Level Adjustement then many high HD monsters become much more powerful than human PCs. If it's an all-monster party, then it's okay. I once played a dragon like this. He had impossibly high Base Attack, saves, hitpoints and feat count. ECL = Monser HD + Level Adjustement One Monster HD is marginally weaker than a level in a PC class. You get all the skills and feats and all that good stuff. What actually makes monsters weaker than humans of equal ECL is the lack of focus (min-maxing). A 13th level figher is a killing machine, a 13th level sorcerer is a walking artillery. Gold dragon wyrmling (ECL 13) is medicore fighter and poor caster. And I'm also playing an incubus by using monster class - feels like a sorcerer totally maxed out for charm magic. I like.
DanjaNinja 02-22-06, 01:35 PM	Auria12, I'm not sure you entirely understand ECL and Level Adjustments. They're there as a guideline, so that a DM can easily see that this creature is roughly as powerful as a character with that many PC levels. It's not a restriction unless the DM makes it so. If you're fine with a level 1 Bugbear Fighter next to a level 1 Human Fighter, more power to you.
Lord Ian Stark 02-23-06, 10:44 AM	Auria ECL is based on the 3.5 rules for gaining experience through CR. What I mean is if you have a Level 1 human Ftr with 12HP BaB +1 fighting alongside a Level 1 Centaur Ftr with 40HP BaB +5, a CR of Lvl 1 - 3 is a cakewalk and throws the entire EXP chart out the window. That's fine if you don't want to use ECL in your games but be prepared to change the entire experience chart. Because if you throw a CR 5 monster at at the two characters above, the Centaur would barely break a sweat while the human Ftr would propbrably be killed within a round or two. Something to think about.
CannibalSmith 02-23-06, 10:57 AM	throws the entire EXP chart out the window. That's what our DM did. Literally! :D XP should not be awarded for frags, imho.
rubendogs 02-23-06, 12:38 PM	That's what our DM did. Literally! :D XP should not be awarded for frags, imho. AMEN. Except in Hack n' slash adventures, the XP chart shouldn't be the PC primary XP source. A Dm should be dishing out XP for roleplaying, creativity, and even things like focus (a big problem in my group). If you're player can make his character feel like a living being, then he should be rewarded for it, even if all he's done is kill a single goblin. -Keith
weasel fierce 02-23-06, 09:09 PM	I'd certainly say ditch it, and award XP for things other than murder. Its not 1978 anymore
Lokathor 02-23-06, 11:51 PM	It's also not so much that the Level Adjustment is making them slower, but it's showing that they're already there for as many levels as it covers. They've passed through the lower power zones and so to advance they need to face harder fights than what the HitDice count alone shows. In my games, I've made a compromise between throwing it out and using it as is: If a race is "close enough" to a human then players can just subtract off the effects of the racial HD and play from class level 1 (remember to also take away the proper number of stat points if you take away 4 HD or more). The Gnoll for example, doesn't have any super weird powers, so just take away the racial HD and you get: * Strength +4, Constitution +2, Intelligence -2, Charisma -2. * Size Medium. * A gnoll’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * +1 natural armor bonus. * Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc. * Favored Class: Ranger. * Level adjustment +1. Quick, easy, and you get to play as all the ogres and giants you want.
rkr1970 02-24-06, 10:48 PM	Actually, a form of ECL was in place in 2nd Ed. If you look in The Complete Book of Humanoids (TSR PHBR10), many "monstrous" races had a slower level advancement than "standard" races. The ogre had one of the toughest in the book, IIRC. I have to guess that this is where the whole LA & ECL came from. Another thing to think about is that in 1st/2nd Ed, the idea of fully customizing your character was more of an afterthought than anything. Kits were "backended" into the game, the Player's Option books were meant to be used piecemeal, as were most other concepts that allowed you to have a more personalized character. The idea of playing an ogre or giant weren't really integrated into the game, and of those few books that offered such an option, only The Complete Humanoid Handbook made it a balanced possibility. 3rd Ed is all about having a unique character each and every time. Race, class(es), prestige class(es), feats, skills, and templates are tools we use to build the character we want. The trade off for such a broad range of choices is in game balance. That's why certain feats have trees, most classes require several levels before gaining more powerful abilities, and the majority of templates & races have LA & ECL. Balance! The ECL/LA system isn't all that complicated. LA is the relative power a creature's natural abilities grant in relation to a human with class levels. ECL is the LA added to the racial HD. If you don't like the ECL, then allow the player to take the race with no racial HD. It might be a bit silly at times, since a 1st level storm giant mage could be killed by a handful of normal rats in a couple of rounds, but it balances the character against the rest of the party. Your complaint, however, seems to be one against LA, not ECL. And if you completely remove a creature's LA from the game, then you are asking for trouble. A human fighter is much less effective in combat than an ogre fighter of the same number of class levels. In a mixed party, you are inviting a few players to control the spotlight while all the others are forced to either die horribly or sit a watch the star player mop the floor with the bad guys. If you don't like the way it's implemented, though, then find another balanced way to use LA in your games. I agree that parts of the LA system are horribly off, since the power advantage quickly evaporates as you gain levels. But you should still have a method of demonstrating the reduced challenge that powerful races face at low levels. If you have Unearthed Arcana, I you might look at the option of allowing PCs to "buy off" their Level Adjustment. Or, you might want to write your own. Whatever system you implement, though, it has to offer some method of balancing "standard" races against "monstrous" races in both the short term and the long. Your solution would allow powerful creatures to walk though low level encounters (or get weaker races killed off too quickly), but makes things rather equal at higher levels. The system in the RAW keeps things balanced at low level, but continues to penalize "monstrous" creatures at higher levels. Here's a quick fix I'll offer for your approval. Require additional XP to gain a level until the character's level is equal to their LA. I would suggest something like an additional 200 XP per (LA+1 minus current level)^2 to advance. This would mean that an aasimar or tiefling wopuld have to get an additional 200 XP to gain 2nd level, a drow or ogre would need an extra 1000 XP (800 for 2nd + 200 for 3rd), but a creature like a hill giant would need an whopping 6000 XP (3200 to make 2nd, 1800 to reach 3rd, 800 for 4th, and 200 to get to 5th level).
Munchmausen 02-26-06, 06:54 PM	Regarding XP charts, I will certainly agree that players should be rewarded for things other than kills, but as long as both kills and completion of story objectives remain even a significant minority of the XP given, some form of balance should be taken into account to make sure that the party is on comparable, if not equal, footing. As for the XP penalties in 2e - I believe it was the Firbolg who had the big penalties. Something like requiring twice as much to level up as a fighter or three times as much to level up as a shaman? IIRC, ogres didn't have any such penalty.
rkr1970 02-26-06, 09:04 PM	Regarding XP charts, I will certainly agree that players should be rewarded for things other than kills, but as long as both kills and completion of story objectives remain even a significant minority of the XP given, some form of balance should be taken into account to make sure that the party is on comparable, if not equal, footing. As for the XP penalties in 2e - I believe it was the Firbolg who had the big penalties. Something like requiring twice as much to level up as a fighter or three times as much to level up as a shaman? IIRC, ogres didn't have any such penalty. I forgot about firbolgs! They did have a nasty penalty. I thought ogres, fremlins, and a few other things had penalties as well, though. I would look it up, but I don't feel like digging through a bunch of dusty boxes just for a post... :D
ThorGuy 02-27-06, 01:01 AM	Lord Ian Stark, I have a question: Why the heck would a Lvl. 1 Centaur Fighter be fighting alongside a Lvl. 1 Human Fighter? A Lvl. 1 Centaur Fighter has an ECL of 5, and should be fighting in a party of 5th level characters, where he would be quite happy, gaining levels at the same rate as the other members of the party.
weasel fierce 02-27-06, 01:17 AM	Does centaurs magically disappear, whenever a first level fighter wanders along ?
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-27-06, 01:36 AM	LA isn't the problem, its the relative sucktitude of monster HD. Keep in mind that the current system is based around making playing monsters less attractive than playing PCs. Rule of thumb is the divide and HD above 4 by 2 before determining ECL. So a creature with 5HD and a +2LA has ECL 7 but a monster with 9HD and +4LA has ECL 11 instead of the 13 it would have under the current system. So far, its worked well for me to actually balance the creature.
Nate Jones 02-27-06, 01:39 AM	Lord Ian Stark, I have a question: Why the heck would a Lvl. 1 Centaur Fighter be fighting alongside a Lvl. 1 Human Fighter? A Lvl. 1 Centaur Fighter has an ECL of 5, and should be fighting in a party of 5th level characters, where he would be quite happy, gaining levels at the same rate as the other members of the party. I'm pretty sure that was exactly the point he was trying to make. ECL exists so that monstrous characters can be placed in an appropriately leveled party.