| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| rbrt_Spade04-30-05, 11:48 AM | Do you think wizards is making/will make a D&D 4.0? if they make a 4.0 in how many years will it be out from 2005 |
| RunningWilder04-30-05, 12:26 PM | Do you think wizards is making/will make a D&D 4.0? if they make a 4.0 in how many years will it be out from 2005 Yes, they will eventually make it, but not for at least another 5 to 10 years. There have been people who claim otherwise, but they don't know what they're talking (or they're out right lying). Its a natural progression for things to change or fall apart, especially when a system becomes to unwieldy. If you don't like the idea of updating, don't update. Hope that answers your questions. As a note, this has been asked a couple dozen times on this board. You might want to flip back a few pages just to be sure that no one has asked it before. And for anyone who wants to continue this thread, you might want to go back to those older threads and make sure your comment hasn't been posted before. |
| Seeker9504-30-05, 12:48 PM | Yes. When they have sifficiently gathered enough major mechanics changes to warrant it. I'd give it another three years at least and five years at most. |
| Ut-Napishtim04-30-05, 01:04 PM | Heh heh, when I first saw this thread I thought rbrt_Spade was asking if the Wizard class would survive and make it to 4E. You know, like whether or not it would be replaced by the Warlock, Wu Jen, Sorceror, or Warmage, etc. I'm guessing eventually we'll see a universal arcane class in the core rules that combines features of assorted forerunners. Most game mechanics these days don't put upper caps on spells you can know and have you casting them from a power pool. In fact D&D is the only one I can think of where you have to prepare them in advance like the Wizard does. Palladium and GURPS as well as a lot of CRPG's use a more Sorceror-like dynamic - without so harshly limiting known spells. I'm guessing with more and more of D&D's new, younger audience being brought into it by XBox instead of X-Men we'll see a shift in that direction for D&D as well. Not that I'm bemoaning that or anything, but whether or not it occurs in 4E remains to be seen. |
| Draco Strang04-30-05, 06:06 PM | I believe the "by the book" wizard that's been running around for 30 years will advance to 4th edition. It's just one of the staples of D&D. Of course, some sort of wu-jen/warlock will also be in attendance (think an alternate version of the 3.5 sorcerer). As for release? I say 2010. They gotta give Eberron the run it deserves. They spent so much money investing into a new 3.5 campaign setting, I doubt they'll want to entirely restructure (and republish) Eberron, Forgotten Realms, AND their new pet world (which I'm sure they'll have) much sooner than about 5 years down the road. |
| weasel fierce05-01-05, 03:25 AM | When the supplements they can make reasonable sales off, are exhausted, they will make 4th edition. As long as its still generating income from supplements, they wont. |
| CycloneRanger05-01-05, 03:41 AM | They gotta give Eberron the run it deserves. They spent so much money investing into a new 3.5 campaign setting, I doubt they'll want to entirely restructure (and republish) Eberron, Forgotten Realms, AND their new pet world (which I'm sure they'll have) much sooner than about 5 years down the road. Are you kidding? WE invested in 3.5. They reaped the benefits from our investing. If it is profitable (meaning, more profitable than the other choices), they will publish the new edition sooner rather than later. I predict that we will see 4th edition before I finish college (4 years). I am, of course, no expert, but I imagine that the supplements they are releasing now will become increasingly world-specific. When that happens, they release a new wave of generic products (in this case, 4th edition). It is not efficient to sell only books that are useful to those in a specific world; better to have new material of different sorts. Currently, the generic supplements are running out of steam. The complete line is finished, the new line (themed around environments) isn't terribly popular as far as I can tell, and I cannot think of any new line of products. I imagine we'll see a Psionics Handbook 2 before 4.0, though. And probably a rerun of the FRCS. |
| Escef05-01-05, 05:34 AM | WotC is not even talking about developing a 4e yet. They are far from done with 3.5. I think their current release schedule is too fast paced. This says to me that they will burn through material much faster than they should. However, they recieved a great deal of backlash over how soon 3.5 was released. D&D edition changes are more generational then occasional. I think the 3.5 backlash was a sort of reminder. Given their current plans, we can predict at least two more race books, a minimum of one more envirement book, and probably four more monster sub-type focused books. Probably an Eberron specific monster book, at least one more Monster Manual type book. Right there that's around two years worth of releases that will sell at least as well as any other. Two years before they even consider putting out a 4e. Then you're looking at at least another two years of in-house developement, and another year of outside playtesting after that, followed by at least 6 months of additional writting and testing, and finally the pre-release hype. I'd say sometime in the neighborhood of 2011. |
| Reinforcements05-01-05, 07:10 AM | Whenever someone makes a thread about 4th Edition, God kills a kitten. |
| Escef05-01-05, 07:12 AM | Whenever someone makes a thread about 4th Edition, God kills a kitten. So do I. But then, I do that all the time anyway. :devil: |
| Attila05-01-05, 07:33 AM | There will certainly be a 4th edition, but not for a long time. It will be when the 3.5e rules get so clunky that it's easier to create a new edition than fix it. Something the 4e tomorrow crowd overlook is that WoTC does not want to make it unless they can be certain that >95% of D&D players will make the switch. They have very diligently avoided splitting the D&D market the way TSR did. They know what a disaster that was. The OGL makes this buy in especially important as players would never run out of new materials. While there will always be groups playing OOP editions, WoTC has to make sure that the overwhelming majority of players choose their current edition. Remember that they offered the original 3.0e books at $19.95 instead of the usual $29.95 because they knew it would be a hard sell getting people to switch from 2e--and that wasn't anything compared to trying to sell 3e->4e as 2e sucked so bad people were happy to toss that system. |
| Escef05-01-05, 08:24 AM | ...as 2e sucked so bad people were happy to toss that system. Now, now, a little respect. 2e was a playable game, still is. If there was a 2e game going on in my area that was on one of my days off I'd gladly sit in, even play if I thought I was compatable with the group. While 3e is most definately a better defined and easier system, that doesn't automatically make 2e trash. |
| RogerWilco05-01-05, 09:03 AM | We only switched fron 2e to 3.5 this year (2005). It'll be years before I'll switch again. 3.5 is a little simpler, but it's main advantage is that we can now all own a copy of the book, not just the veteran's in our group. |
| The Club05-01-05, 11:38 AM | When the supplements they can make reasonable sales off, are exhausted, they will make 4th edition. As long as its still generating income from supplements, they wont. I saw a couple of posts suggesting that the release of 4th edition will be dependent on problems with the rules (like "clunkiness"). Weasel Fierce has the truth of it. 4th Edition will come out when 3/3.5 has been milked dry of profitability. It seems to me that this edition is an experiment in getting away from some of the tradition in previous editions. I'm wondering if there aren't some designers ready for a much more iconoclastic new edition. Personally, I'd like to see it. I'm for burning the class system to the ground and making class abilities more modular. I'm also for competitive attack and defense rolls in combat, the abolition of the static armor class, and the death of the Vancian spellcasting system (and desecration of its corpse). I suspect that a new edition wouldn't go this far, even if the designer were in complete agreement about wanting such changes. WotC can't risk a major production run that people won't buy, and getting too far from the sacred cows all at once might alienate too many players. The internet gives me some cause for hope, though: There's a lot of feedback these days, and that may embolden the designers to make some interesting changes. Then again, maybe most of gaming public doesn't want much in the way of change. The Club |
| Escef05-01-05, 12:01 PM | Then again, maybe most of gaming public doesn't want much in the way of change. That is probably part of it. Something else is also that there is only so much you can change before the system isn't considered D&D by the players. From where I sit, D&D is fantasy roleplaying in a system dominated by polyhedral dice, a class/level system, Vancian magic, the nine alignments, and some staple spells and creatures. Dropping any two of those makes it a mere shadow of D&D, IMO. Dropping 3 or more stops it from being D&D altogether. If you want something that radically different what you want is not D&D. Find a different game system that makes you happy, because D&D is obviously not it. Some people seem to think that D&D needs a bunch of radical changes. The problem being that the changes they want are all in other game systems already. So why force D&D to be GURPS, or Ars Magica, or Shadowrun, or what-have-you? I have no issue with houserules (despite the fact that I have seen some real "winners"), but we aren't talking about simple houserules. People are talking about tearing the system down and rebuilding it from the ground up. Well, that is what 3e did. And it isn't what they want. What they want is to burn D&D to the ground and build something entirely new on the lot, then slap the D&D name on it. Some of the old guard claim that is what 3e did, and I disagree. I think enough things stayed the same to justify keeping the name. What so many others seem to want is to play a game with the name recognition of D&D and play the system they want. Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Some of the radical houserulings I've heard of scare me, to be frank. When people have over 20 pages of houserules you can't expect anyone who knows the game to come into your group and recognize things. And when a person you taught to play leaves the group and joins another they are as lost as any beginner, or worse yet, have to unlearn much of what you taught them. I'm not saying RAW or nothing. I'm saying know when D&D isn't what you want and find what it is you do want. If what you want and need is an SUV don't buy a sports car. |
| Draco Strang05-01-05, 12:21 PM | Are you kidding? WE invested in 3.5. They reaped the benefits from our investing. If it is profitable (meaning, more profitable than the other choices), they will publish the new edition sooner rather than later. No, I'm not kidding. WOTC invested in 3.5 before we ever did. They have to pay for development, R&D, playtesting, marketing, and the final push for production and distribution. A publishing company has to take the plunge and stick out their neck before we ever do. And I'm sure that 3.5 still has many, many quality products left. FR still have places to explore, Eberron is a brand new world. If you think they won't exploit it as long as possible, you are wrong. Even if Forgotten Realms falls off the map (which it wont) and they stop doing generic stuff (they won't), Eberron would be enough to keep them in business. Especially if it was the only supported setting. I predict that we will see 4th edition before I finish college (4 years). I am, of course, no expert, but I imagine that the supplements they are releasing now will become increasingly world-specific. When that happens, they release a new wave of generic products (in this case, 4th edition). It is not efficient to sell only books that are useful to those in a specific world; better to have new material of different sorts. Currently, the generic supplements are running out of steam. The complete line is finished, the new line (themed around environments) isn't terribly popular as far as I can tell, and I cannot think of any new line of products as we Indeed, you are no expert. Are you a business major? Doesn't sound like it. If WOTC is even thinking of 4e yet (check my sig for info on that), they sure as hell won't shoot their 3.5 stuff in the foot by offering two competing rule sets at the same time. Two campaign settings is feasible, because it gives people high-magic and wide-magic, with two vastly different flavors to them. But the equivalent of d20 and the old D&D system? No way. Nothing would be compatible, and people would be ****** at that. They'd ask why 3.5 was still being supported with no new product development, and the 4e people would moan about them supporting 3.5 and not putting their full effort behind 4e (which they will need to do anyway...gotta support your product). I imagine we'll see a Psionics Handbook 2 before 4.0, though. And probably a rerun of the FRCS. I imagine you're wrong. You might get a Complete Psionicist book, but there certainly won't be a re-edition of the FRCS. Too much money to spend updating so little. Virtually all of the 3.0 FRCS is compatible with 3.5. Will they reprint Magic of Faerun and Silver Marches as well? Nope, same reasons apply. |
| Vahenir05-01-05, 12:31 PM | I'm saying know when D&D isn't what you want and find what it is you do want. Or build it. The entire d20 system is a good system, with a lot of support products bombarded at us from everywhere. A really good way to 'get what you want' is to simply "houserule" the crap out of D&D, changing everything you want to change. I'm doing that - and let me tell you - using the d20 system as the base for my own system is MUCH easier than trying to develop a new system entirely. Of course, when you do this - you're not playing D&D anymore and anyone you play with should know that upfront. "Springing" 50 pages of 'houserules' and changes to the core system on a group of unsuspecting players is bad manners. |
| Ut-Napishtim05-01-05, 12:36 PM | It seems to me that this edition is an experiment in getting away from some of the tradition in previous editions. I'm wondering if there aren't some designers ready for a much more iconoclastic new edition. Personally, I'd like to see it. I'm for burning the class system to the ground and making class abilities more modular. I'm also for competitive attack and defense rolls in combat, the abolition of the static armor class, and the death of the Vancian spellcasting system (and desecration of its corpse). Have you tried GURPS? Seriously, I couldn't be happier with 3.5 in all honesty and I think it's about as dynamic as you're going to get w/o changing the system into something that's not D&D. I like that GURPS has no classes and has a much better magic system, but it also has a lot of complexity that makes it difficult for new players to pick up on the game. The AC system is simple and functional, the classes help new players decide what to choose without needing an in-depth knowledge of the game. This will probably be my last edition. I just turned 30 not long ago, and with jobs etc. it's just difficult to get people together to play. Sure, I could probably find some fifteen-year-olds that are playing, but then I'd feel like a dirty old man. Not to mention dealing with the Half-Vampires and such. They'll ride this hard until it stops shooting cash and then crank out a new edition. I imagine that the change from 3.5 to 4E will be about as drastic as the change from 3E to 3.5 but with some new graphics and packaging and enough changes to sponsor a whole new line of books. Either that or it'll be something so drastically different that people will hate and shun it, kind of like New Coke, and I'll cheer because 3.5 is fine with me. |
| Vanamir05-01-05, 01:09 PM | What most people forget when they claim that 4th edition is still a long time in the future and won't be published until 3.5E has become to clunky to play because of to many ill-conceived supplements forget the real reason why WotC published 3.5E in the first place: 3.5E was published two years ahead of its original schedule (which was set for about 2005 when 3.0E came out in 2000) not because 3.0E was in dire need of a bug-fix but because the sales of 3.0E core rule-books where falling earlier than they had anticipated. What does that mean for a possible 4th edition? They will publish it as soon as they realise that 3.5E is significantly going down in selling-numbers. People on these boards easily forget that WotC is not a group of D&D fans but instead a company and as a company they have to make profits or they go out of business. So when they find out that one of their prime products start to become unprofitable they will revamp them or replace them with another product, namely 4th edition. So where does 3.5E stand now? If you look at it you'll notice that they are pretty fast getting to the point where they decided to replace 3.0E with 3.5E. At first there were the core rules followed by some class specific books (splatbooks for 3.0, complete tralala for 3.5) and the addition of psionics. These are the obvious books that have a wide appeal and thus will generate large sales. After that they start to come out with more narrowly focused books that appeal only to a smaller audience with specific interests. In 3.0E this was OA, BoVD, GW, the A&EG and the stronghold builder's guidebook while in 3.5E it has been BoED, the races of tralala books, monster specific books and the environment books. This means that they are already past the big sellers and are now in the process of catering the niché products which basically means that they are starting to grasp for straws. Of course they can go on producing setting specific books for FR and Eberron but i doubt that these two settings will generate enough revenue to keep D&D alive in it's current form. Especially if you consider that a new edition is a wonderful opportunity to rehash the old stuff again under a new label. Just look at the previous edition sourcebooks for FR and you'll see what i mean. My prediction would be that WoTC will finish the races series and the environment books and then they will rather quickly go over to a new edition in order to start the circle anew. I'd give 3.5E no more than two more years from now on and i wouldn't be surprised to see fourth edition within 2006. just my 2cents. |
| Escef05-01-05, 01:32 PM | So where does 3.5E stand now? If you look at it you'll notice that they are pretty fast getting to the point where they decided to replace 3.0E with 3.5E. [...] In 3.0E this was OA, BoVD, GW, the A&EG and the stronghold builder's guidebook while in 3.5E it has been BoED, the races of tralala books, monster specific books and the environment books. This means that they are already past the big sellers and are now in the process of catering the niché products which basically means that they are starting to grasp for straws. I disagree. BoED, the racial books, monster type books, and envirement books could all have been done under 3.0, but weren't, so 3.0 was far from it's possible end. Someone, somewhere in middle-management decided to implement a sale boosting plan early, and furthermore neither the developers nor management on the job knew when or where to draw the line with the revisions. And WotC knows the swiftness with which 3.5 came out has alienated some consumers. They have, in fact, created the situation where they have divided their audience, something they never wnted to do. This is the key difference between TSR and WotC, WotC listens to their consumers. WotC wouldn't dare pull out 4e before 2008. And they know they can keep their release schedule plenty fat until then. |
| The Club05-01-05, 05:05 PM | That is probably part of it. Something else is also that there is only so much you can change before the system isn't considered D&D by the players. From where I sit, D&D is fantasy roleplaying in a system dominated by polyhedral dice, a class/level system, Vancian magic, the nine alignments, and some staple spells and creatures. Dropping any two of those makes it a mere shadow of D&D, IMO. Dropping 3 or more stops it from being D&D altogether. If you want something that radically different what you want is not D&D. Find a different game system that makes you happy, because D&D is obviously not it. Some people seem to think that D&D needs a bunch of radical changes. The problem being that the changes they want are all in other game systems already. So why force D&D to be GURPS, or Ars Magica, or Shadowrun, or what-have-you? I'm not sure changing the structures you mention make it a "mere shadow" of D&D. At root, "D&D" is defined by whoever holds the copyright and is currently publishing the game and supplements. The current edition is already a near-quantum change from previous editions. Every change in the game to this point has caused some to complain about departure from the canon of the game. Just between you and me, I think early D&D was a fairly clumsy adaptation from a tactical battlefield miniatures game. The idea of turning a minis game into a role-playing game was pioneering and brilliant, but the actual implementation could have been better. Subsequent editions have done a great deal to take D&D from an abstract tactical exercise to a more elegant story-telling medium. Pull out your first edition AD&D book (or, better yet, the "white box" rules) and you'll find a dozen rules which haven't survived to this edition and which may have helped define "true D&D" to previous generations of gamers. Judging from what I'm seeing in recent releases, I'd be a little surprised to see Vancian spellcasting survive into 4th edition. Since game designers like to put their own mark on their products, there may be other changes in the wind. Anyway, I'm not clamoring for a bunch of change; I just pointed out what I'd like to see. I think some of it is on the way in the future, and I think it likely that changes in the new edition will improve the game. In any case, a new edition should have some noticeable changes, or it will be hard to explain why anyone should buy the new adition. I think the biggest challenge for the next edition will be managing some of the customization available. Gygaxian D&D didn't allow for much statistical variation in characters, so a class system worked just fine. With all of the different feats and class abilities out in the new editions, keeping the game within the constraints of a class system is getting harder to do. Anyway, I'm looking forward to fourth edition (not right now, mind you, but in its own time). The things I like best about the game aren't likely to be moved around too much, and the things I like least are most likely to get some rewriting. In the meantime, I'm still playing the game and working on my own stuff. Anyway, your points are taken, but I've been playing the game since '78, and I've never bought the arguments about "true D&D". I think the current version is the best design of the game in terms of crunch and fluff. I also think that the game can continue to evolve and improve. The Club |
| Dragonblade27505-01-05, 05:50 PM | I'm for burning the class system to the ground and making class abilities more modular. I'm also for competitive attack and defense rolls in combat, the abolition of the static armor class, and the death of the Vancian spellcasting system (and desecration of its corpse). All of this can be done inside of 3.5 using Unearthed Arcana and other variant rules from the DMG. Our group didn't eliminate the class system, but using multiclass gestaults goes a long way toward it. We started using competitve attack and defensive rolls as soon as the idea was presented and understood. We eliminated static armor bonuses from armor in favour of armor as variable damage reduction (still a work in progress) and added our own variation of class-defense bonuses. All in all, we're probably playing what could be called D&D 3.68 (not 3.75 because it seems inevitable that we will be using some or many 3.0 sources). I don't want to see 4.0 before 2015. There's plenty of room for second editions of the Player's Handbook, for example that present all the core classes and feats in one volume. There's also endless room for new monsters and monster manuals. Eberron is too new to invoke a new edition. 4th Edition would kill Eberron. I was staying away from all Eberron stuff, myself, wanting only non-world-specific 3.5 books, but I couldn't resist FR Serpent Kingdoms and FR Underdark (3.0) looks promising. Races of Eberron looks interesting, too. The Warforged just might have an incarnation in my own world. I didn't like them at first, but the more I look at what's available online concerning them, the more I think the Warforged belong in D&D. If we were voting, my vote is no 4.0 before 2015. And, 2025 would suit me just fine. Afterall, why would Eberron and the Forgotten Realms be the only WOTC worlds for DnD? Why couldn't they resurrect Dark Sun or Planescape? I still want to read many of the Planescape novels that I never got the chance to back in the day as I was more focused on Dragonlance. WOTC isn't limited to just recreating old worlds or expanding the current ones, either. They can always add new ones if they ever feel that one is exhausted. There isn't really a reason that DnD needs keep reincarnating into new editions. Improving the existing edition and perhaps improving the core books, maybe... |
| The Club05-01-05, 10:22 PM | All of this can be done inside of 3.5 using Unearthed Arcana and other variant rules from the DMG. Our group didn't eliminate the class system, but using multiclass gestaults goes a long way toward it. We started using competitve attack and defensive rolls as soon as the idea was presented and understood. We eliminated static armor bonuses from armor in favour of armor as variable damage reduction (still a work in progress) and added our own variation of class-defense bonuses. All in all, we're probably playing what could be called D&D 3.68 (not 3.75 because it seems inevitable that we will be using some or many 3.0 sources). I like the concepts in all of those changes, although I haven't tried to do the math and see how it affects balance. I think the class-based system is running into some problems in the current edition that didn't exist before. The class systems seems, to me, to be inherently restrictive, and the game is moving in the opposite direction. Since a lot of abilities are attached to class levels, players are doing all sorts of gymnastics to get the characters they want. Seems to me that it would be easier if the players could go right for the abilities. Of course, there might be a genius game designer out there who can resolve the whole thing in one elegant system. [FONT=Comic Sans MS] If we were voting, my vote is no 4.0 before 2015. And, 2025 would suit me just fine. Afterall, why would Eberron and the Forgotten Realms be the only WOTC worlds for DnD? Why couldn't they resurrect Dark Sun or Planescape? I still want to read many of the Planescape novels that I never got the chance to back in the day as I was more focused on Dragonlance. WOTC isn't limited to just recreating old worlds or expanding the current ones, either. They can always add new ones if they ever feel that one is exhausted. There isn't really a reason that DnD needs keep reincarnating into new editions. Improving the existing edition and perhaps improving the core books, maybe... There is a reason for DnD to keep reincarnating: keeping it solvent as a business venture. There are only so many supplements that this edition will support. As good as it is, there will come a point when there isn't much more to say about it. The gaming community will have all the 3.5 material it will ever need, and there will still be bills to pay over at WotC. At the current rate, I'm thinking 5th edition will be out close to my retirement, and it will be much closer to the game I think D&D can become. Then, I'll find some other aging geeks and we'll still be playing D&D (and not talking about it in public). The Club |
| Sarella Starshine05-02-05, 12:06 AM | WToC will eventually make a 4th edition. is it anytime in the forseeable future (and that i meen within 5 years)? i highly doubt it. as for the rules, class systems, etc., the issue i see is not that they are broken, nerfed, overpowered, etc., is that today's society is focused on instant gratification without any limits. most people (not all do this) that play D&D today try to find the best combo that will maximize thier 'concept' of a good character (whether thats a caster that can fight as well as a fighter or a priest that can cast like a caster, or some other insane combo) using the path of least resistance. whether this is a side thing from having a younger target population (one that is used to instant gratification from computer games), or a change in how society views rewards, i don't know, and i am not even going to remotely guess. to me, D&D has always been the game where you have the odd dice, the fighters being different from the casters and both are different from the priests, and all three are different from the rogues. i like the idea of the different classes available so i am not stuck being a wizard if i want to be an arcane caster, a cleric or druid if i want to be a priest type, etc. alot of you (not naming names or really pointing fingers) somehow think its bad if a company makes money off something like D&D and act totally shocked and betrayed. WToC has every right to turn a profit off of D&D like they have the right to turn a profit off of every other product they own. does this mean that all the new books were made with the idea to turn profit? i don't know. i dont have access to thier corporate plans regarding D&D, so any thing i say is pure conjure and assumptions, and i refrain from making conjures and assumptions because 90% of the time, i am never right. |
| Attila05-02-05, 12:20 AM | ........forget the real reason why WotC published 3.5E in the first place: 3.5E was published two years ahead of its original schedule (which was set for about 2005 when 3.0E came out in 2000) not because 3.0E was in dire need of a bug-fix but because the sales of 3.0E core rule-books where falling earlier than they had anticipated. What does that mean for a possible 4th edition? They will publish it as soon as they realise that 3.5E is significantly going down in selling-numbers.... People on these boards easily forget that WotC is not a group of D&D fans but instead a company and as a company they have to make profits or they go out of business. So when they find out that one of their prime products start to become unprofitable they will revamp them or replace them with another product, namely 4th edition. What you are forgetting here is that the revision (3.5) was never intended (according to Monte Cooke) to change any rules. It was supposed to be a reprint with new artwork and a revised format based on customer feedback, but no rule changes*. That's why Monte was so shocked when he saw 3.5. Re-read his bombshell column, it's still on his website. 4th edition would make WoTC a lot of money, but only if the mass of D&D fans accepts it and buys into the idea. That's really the driver of this issue. WoTC can't afford to put out 4E and **** off a large segment of D&D fans (we're a small group to begin with) and/or have half stick with 3E and half switch to 4E. Then they'd be up the creek because they would either have to forfeit their sales to 3E players or admit they made a mistake and support both game systems which would mean twice the costs for the same revenue stream they could of had by sticking to 3E. Ultimately it will be up to WoTC's customers as to when 4E appears. When WoTC's marketing people tell them that most 3E players are ready for a new edition then it will get the go ahead. If sales of 3E start tappering off before 3E players lose their hostility to 4E then WoTC will have to get creative with new 3E products to bring back the sales. *D&D fans love new artwork and like to buy multiple copies of the same book. (Special Edition PHB and DMG anyone?) |
| weasel fierce05-02-05, 03:42 AM | A lot will also depend on whether its a revision or a new edition. 3E was a new edition. 3.5 can be either, depending on who you ask (Cook obviously thought it was too sweeping to be the revision that he planned) What "4th" will be, is left to be discovered |
| Seldarin05-02-05, 04:24 AM | :censored: SMITE THOSE EVIL v4.0 PHILOSOPHISTS!!!! :fight!: |
| DMDaddy05-02-05, 01:54 PM | What I see is a company that may be in trouble. Just like it has been stated, they can't split their market between 3.0/3.5 and a new 4.0. At the same time, it seems that they may run out of steam (sales) too quickly with 3.5. This says that it's possible that the company has too much overhead. It also says alot of other things. My first best guess, being a business guroo/marketer/inovator/entrepreneur/inventor/and much more, is that this company needs to obtain sales/revenue through other means. The sales of d&d books and supplements will run out of steam faster and faster with each release. Putting out a 4.0 is only a band aid to their real problem, because then they would need to put out a 4.5 in two years, and a 5.0 in one year. They need money through other means. An example would be: (this is not a good idea, but I will shoot myself in the foot if it should ever take off): Offer D&D services: Open D&D clubs (like fitness clubs). Store front stores where players can pay a monthly fee. Or, any other related services were they can generate revenue. Break into a whole new market: Offering D&D logo products such as shirts, swords, etc... Offer more computer related products: Such as software and computer aids for DMs and players alike who have laptops. Just ideas for a company that may be in touble. |
| Draco Strang05-02-05, 02:04 PM | What I see is a company that may be in trouble. Just like it has been stated, they can't split their market between 3.0/3.5 and a new 4.0. At the same time, it seems that they may run out of steam (sales) too quickly with 3.5. Eh.....I really don't think so. I'm pretty sure that WOTC has enough up their sleeves to keep us going for another 4 or 5 years, what with Eberron, more creature books, Forgotten Realms (even with all the material, there's a lot they haven't done. Hell...bring back Kara-Tur and Maztica!) and more generic stuff. If they were really hard pressed, they could go into the module business. I doubt that'll happen, because of the problems you run into making money with small products like that published by a huge company. An example would be: (this is not a good idea, but I will shoot myself in the foot if it should ever take off): Offer D&D services: Open D&D clubs (like fitness clubs). Store front stores where players can pay a monthly fee. Or, any other related services were they can generate revenue. Break into a whole new market: Offering D&D logo products such as shirts, swords, etc... Offer more computer related products: Such as software and computer aids for DMs and players alike who have laptops. Just ideas for a company that may be in touble. You're right, the D&D pay-to-play store is an awful idea. Where do I begin to list the headaches? D&D products could make money. There are enough dorks and gamers out there bold enough to wear their d20 on their sleeve, so to speak. However, I cringe at the thought of "authentic" D&D weaponry. I like your idea about software. Reminds me of the CD that came with the 3.0 PHB. There was some decent stuff on there. I think we'll see more Special Edition stuff, in addition to an influx of new books. No way they'll let 3.5 run dry when they haven't even started on 4.0 yet. |
| Escef05-02-05, 02:24 PM | However, I cringe at the thought of "authentic" D&D weaponry. Are you aware that there are companies selling replica weapons of Twinkle and Icingdeath, the scimitars of a certain drow ranger from the Forgotten Realms? |
| Vahenir05-02-05, 02:48 PM | Not companies, but company. Windlass Steelcrafts, to be precise (owner of Museum Replicas Limited - it's all one company) produce the LICENSED and OFFICIAL Twinkle and Icingdeath. They also produce the Kingdom of Heaven replicas, and the replica of Archaon's sword from Warhammer. Oh.. and Monty Python and the Holy Grail items. |
| Escef05-02-05, 02:56 PM | Not companies, but company. Windlass Steelcrafts, to be precise (owner of Museum Replicas Limited - it's all one company) produce the LICENSED and OFFICIAL Twinkle and Icingdeath. And several companies I'm sure make less expensive knock-offs. Edit: I thought Museum Replicas was owned by Atlanta Cutlery, or are they both owned in turn by Windlass? |
| Ut-Napishtim05-02-05, 03:16 PM | However, I cringe at the thought of "authentic" D&D weaponry. Not companies, but company. Windlass Steelcrafts, to be precise (owner of Museum Replicas Limited - it's all one company) produce the LICENSED and OFFICIAL Twinkle and Icingdeath. Hmmm... personally I cringe at the thought of having to DM for the player that actually bought the LICENSED and OFFICIAL Twinkle and Icingdeath. :help: :crazy: |
| Vahenir05-02-05, 03:24 PM | Edit: I thought Museum Replicas was owned by Atlanta Cutlery, or are they both owned in turn by Windlass? Whoops.. I wasn't paying attention when I wrote that - as I'd be thinking about sword-blades. Atlanta Cutlery owns Museum Replicas... which gets its blades from Windlass. Hmmm... personally I cringe at the thought of having to DM for the player that actually bought the LICENSED and OFFICIAL Twinkle and Icingdeath. Why? There's nothing wrong with collecting. What about people who simply collect weapons? Or collect the weapons from the Lord of the Rings movies? Being a fan of something often means collecting things related to it. Hell, I -hate- Forgotten Realms and I've considered buying Icingdeath, as it's a very lovely sword. |
| spamfiltre05-02-05, 03:27 PM | An example would be: (this is not a good idea, but I will shoot myself in the foot if it should ever take off): Offer D&D services: Open D&D clubs (like fitness clubs). Store front stores where players can pay a monthly fee. Or, any other related services were they can generate revenue. Unfortunately, the Living campaigns are the start of this. Currently, you can do it at home, or at cons, but I could see WotC opening stores to offer more play opportunities. They could directly compete with other game stores, and might even start products that are only offered in their stores, or are offered in advance of other game stores, just like game stores get books before Amazon. Incidentally, I see the Living campaigns as the test bed for 4.0. I already know some people who only play Living Greyhawk, so getting them to switch to a new rules set will be as easy as changing the play requirements and providing transition rules for their characters. Offer more computer related products: Such as software and computer aids for DMs and players alike who have laptops. They won't survive if they don't start offering their products in electronic format at reasonable prices. I already chaffe every time I have to lug the paper around with me. They've started this with the PDF versions of some books, and I think it's only a matter of time before they offer a complete DM aid software package with scheduled rules updates, and possibly a subscription service for new material. |
| DMDaddy05-02-05, 04:49 PM | Well, it's good to see that I wasn't completely shot down. My comments were simple "business-in-can" answers. From what I'm reading on this board and the history of the D&D company, it could very well indicate future problems with revenues. The solutions I offered are basic solutions that any company would have to face. Product, Service, or Information. They're offering product, but the way they are offering it could cause a split in the market. People like me (frugal with money even though I have alot), can't afford to upgrade every 3 years. I'm also sure that there is a large percentage that won't switch even after 5 years. This means that they will continually have to offer more products and varying products, or, Services to go with product. By the way, I think D&D clothing could be a good idea. I'd have a few shirts, especially if they had good art work. This could also be a great marketing tool to increase their market. There's also the concept of product life cycle. Every product goes through it to maturity and then to decline. The D&D company has already went through and few and re-invented their product. 3.0/3.5 is a re-invention of the original product. If the product is short lived then they will be forced to offer other products and/or services. To re-invent a short lived product is risky. They've already upgraded from 3.0 to 3.5. This has hurt them from offering a 4.0 anytime soon. There will be too many disgruntled consumers. Large groups of consumers would neglect to buy the new and instead try to promote others to buy old, even though it would be used books. A sort of boycott. Just some ramblings from an idiot who is still 2 months away from the 3.5 DM guide and Monster Manual. I finally was given a 3.5 players handbook. If it wasn't for the players giving me the 3.5 PHB and their group effort (combined money) to buy me the 3.5 MM and DMG for my birthday in August, then I wouldn't have upgraded from 2nd ed. |
| CycloneRanger05-02-05, 05:00 PM | No, I'm not kidding. WOTC invested in 3.5 before we ever did. They have to pay for development, R&D, playtesting, marketing, and the final push for production and distribution. A publishing company has to take the plunge and stick out their neck before we ever do. And I'm sure that 3.5 still has many, many quality products left. FR still have places to explore, Eberron is a brand new world. If you think they won't exploit it as long as possible, you are wrong. Even if Forgotten Realms falls off the map (which it wont) and they stop doing generic stuff (they won't), Eberron would be enough to keep them in business. Especially if it was the only supported setting. Wizards made their investment first, of course. However, they did this because they thought it would make them money in the long run. It did. If it looks like the same thing would happen again, then it is viable to invest in it. It occurs to me that the market for RPGs is expanding even as it is larger than it has ever been. This would seem to justify a rather large investment, especially as the company investing has already made a great profit from the field in question. I don't see a continuous source of non-world-specific supplements in the future. Perhaps I am not that creative, but I am wondering exactly what there is left to do that will interest players of all settings and homebrew settings (which seem to me to represent a large portion of WotC' customer base). Indeed, you are no expert. Are you a business major? Doesn't sound like it. You are correct. My major is Astronautical Engineering; I know absolutely nothing about economics. I have to ask, however... Are you a business major? Have you had training in this field? I ask because I would eventually like to understand the world of business; I see it as important for my field. I don't understand why they would not print 4.0 sooner rather than later. From my limited knowledge, it seems to be the most profitable move. I would estimate about 3 years before we start to hear a lot of advertising, and about 6 months to a year after that before we see an actual 4.0. Why do you disagree? |
| Vahenir05-02-05, 05:14 PM | I don't understand why they would not print 4.0 sooner rather than later. From my limited knowledge, it seems to be the most profitable move. Because you're overlooking a very important thing: The Open Gaming License. If Wizards of the Coast decides to totally revise the game into a totally new Edition, they risk a Corporate War, so to speak. Do you have any idea how many Third Party Publishers are active right now? A -lot-. Especially in the PDF market. Couple that with successful print publishers like Green Ronin and Malhavoc Press and you run into a problem: If you choose to make a new Edition that is not TOTALLY compatible with the old edition (in that case - what's the point?) - then you risk having your entire consumer base torn between the Edition that's supported by THOUSANDS of products... and a totally new edition that's supported by very few to begin with. What would -you- do? Continue to support the product that people are enjoying and buying lots of products for, or risk alienating a huge amount of customers by releasing a new edition? Think about it, also, from a consumer perspective. You have practically every kind of rule and setting at your fingertips right now. If you want to play it in d20 - you probably can just by finding the right Third Party product. Would you switch to Fourth Edition knowing that all those products are not compatible? |
| Palin the Wizard05-02-05, 05:41 PM | Personally, I doubt WotC will keep the D&D license when it's time to switch to 4E. I think they'll sell it off and go back to focusing on their CCGs. At the moment, a 4th edition of D&D would just not generate the sales needed for them to publish it. We have the OGL, which we never had before. Most of us are starting to realize that we can have sweeping houserules so we get the type of play we want. Many are mixing gaming systems. Honestly, I think the RPG business is starting to stall. At the moment, D&D is at its height. Sure, 4th edition will come eventually--3E has been far too profitable for it not to. But it won't be as mainstream as 3E has become. |
| Dragonblade27505-02-05, 06:48 PM | I like the concepts in all of those changes, although I haven't tried to do the math and see how it affects balance. I think the class-based system is running into some problems in the current edition that didn't exist before. The class systems seems, to me, to be inherently restrictive, and the game is moving in the opposite direction. Since a lot of abilities are attached to class levels, players are doing all sorts of gymnastics to get the characters they want. Seems to me that it would be easier if the players could go right for the abilities. Of course, there might be a genius game designer out there who can resolve the whole thing in one elegant system.I would love to see the entire game converted to a classless or at least a generic system built on the one in Unearthed Arcana. The idea of having to multiclass into so many classes to create a given concept is silly. I honestly have my own suspicions that 3E/3.5E is built on a classless system behind the scenes, though. It almost has to be to try to maintain game balance. For instance, 2 skill points per level seems to equal one feat. There's also some trades that are made in other areas that aren't as easy for me to go into in this post that I've uncovered for myself.There is a reason for DnD to keep reincarnating: keeping it solvent as a business venture. There are only so many supplements that this edition will support. As good as it is, there will come a point when there isn't much more to say about it. The gaming community will have all the 3.5 material it will ever need, and there will still be bills to pay over at WotC.Maybe, but there are other games that are classics that don't go through edition after edition. Granted, they aren't as complex as DnD (chess, monopoly, risk...).At the current rate, I'm thinking 5th edition will be out close to my retirement, and it will be much closer to the game I think D&D can become. Then, I'll find some other aging geeks and we'll still be playing D&D (and not talking about it in public).I plan to play my version of 3.5 (3.68E) with my friends for quite a long while. We've kept several of our own iconic characters going through various incarnations in 3 versions of DnD (all but 2E--hated 2E). The characters will survive regardless of whether or not the rules system we use to tell the stories change or not. |
| Dragonblade27505-02-05, 07:00 PM | What you are forgetting here is that the revision (3.5) was never intended (according to Monte Cooke) to change any rules. It was supposed to be a reprint with new artwork and a revised format based on customer feedback, but no rule changes*. That's why Monte was so shocked when he saw 3.5. Re-read his bombshell column, it's still on his website.Here's the link: REVIEWS: Looking at D&D v. 3.5 (http://www.montecook.com/arch_review26.html) Thanks. |
| weasel fierce05-02-05, 08:07 PM | We have the OGL, which we never had before. Most of us are starting to realize that we can have sweeping houserules so we get the type of play we want. Many are mixing gaming systems. This has happened for some 35 years. The OGL just makes it easier for small companies to publish product without having to do much actual work. |
| MerricB05-02-05, 08:31 PM | Because you're overlooking a very important thing: The Open Gaming License. If Wizards of the Coast decides to totally revise the game into a totally new Edition, they risk a Corporate War, so to speak. Do you have any idea how many Third Party Publishers are active right now? A -lot-. Especially in the PDF market. Couple that with successful print publishers like Green Ronin and Malhavoc Press and you run into a problem No problem whatsoever. Why? Because Wizards is an absolute giant in the RPG industry. Even if a couple of those companies put out competing "3e" systems, they still would be massively behind the huge draw of the D&D brand name and Wizards distribution power. That said, I really don't think 4e will be the big change that many people fear it will be. It may move some things around, and have new ways of dealing with some issues (especially Turn Undead and Metamagic), but the line of descent from 3e -> 3.5e -> 4e should be clear. (Just as you can trace oD&D -> supplements -> AD&D -> 2nd Edition -> Player's Option -> 3E). Although there probably were financial reasons for 3.5e coming out earlier than Monte expected, there were also some serious design flaws in 3e that had to be fixed sooner rather than later. Probably the most significant change in 3.5e was the monster advancement rules. The mess that was 3e was replaced by a much more unified system, and it opened up much in the way of design space for the designers. Is 3.5e perfect? By no means (see the caster level/Holy Word debates). So, we'll see a 4e at some point to fix the outstanding issues - especially things like metamagic, which the designers didn't have time to playtest a proper fix in the 3.5e update. Cheers! |
| Draco Strang05-02-05, 08:43 PM | Wizards made their investment first, of course. However, they did this because they thought it would make them money in the long run. It did. If it looks like the same thing would happen again, then it is viable to invest in it. It occurs to me that the market for RPGs is expanding even as it is larger than it has ever been. This would seem to justify a rather large investment, especially as the company investing has already made a great profit from the field in question. Oh, for sure it justifies a huge investment. I've no doubt in my mind that there are two or three guys who sit around in the office a few days a week, checking out other RPG systems and coming up with ideas of their own, trying to figure out exactly what direction 4.0 should go. Mind you, this isn't actual development....they're just in the "brainstorming" phase. They'd be stupid if they didn't start a project of this magnitude half a decade in advance. I expect that WOTC will dump some major cash into the development/production of a 4th edition. I just don't think it'll hit the shelves for another 5-6 years. I don't see a continuous source of non-world-specific supplements in the future. Perhaps I am not that creative, but I am wondering exactly what there is left to do that will interest players of all settings and homebrew settings (which seem to me to represent a large portion of WotC' customer base). Well, don't feel bad if you don't think you're not that creative. That's the reason that a lot of would-be writers don't get published. They just lack a certain element. I couldn't make it as a game designer either. As for projects after early 2006? Well, I'm sure there's a Monster Manual IV in the works. III did pretty well, and they'd be fools to not give it another go. It looks like the Races of series is over, but the environment series, "Heroes of" series, and various creature books have yet to be penned. Who here wants to bet we see books about fey, goblinoids/orcs, giants, and another oneon demihumans like gnolls and minotaurs? People will buy them if they're anything like Draconomicon or Lords of Madness. Those were damn good books. The upcoming Weapons of Legacy makes me think that they want to start an item-based series, which would make sense. I could see a book aimed at the crafting of constructs. What about spell-compendiums? All of that's a possibility. Also, don't forget the barely-tapped well that is Eberron, and the vast regions of Faerun that haven't been touched yet (BRING BACK KARA-TUR!!!!). I have to ask, however... Are you a business major? Have you had training in this field? I ask because I would eventually like to understand the world of business; I see it as important for my field. I don't understand why they would not print 4.0 sooner rather than later. From my limited knowledge, it seems to be the most profitable move. I would estimate about 3 years before we start to hear a lot of advertising, and about 6 months to a year after that before we see an actual 4.0. Why do you disagree? Indeed sir, I am a business major. Freshman at the University of Cincinnati, dual-majoring in Small Business Management/Finance and Industrial/Automotive Technologies. Word to the wise...avoid dual majors. I've been taking 19+credit hours all year, and it sucks. Anyway, I've taken the three linear economics courses (Micro, Macro, and Urban) and I'm slated for another 5 throughout the rest of my college career. Also, I've got a marketing class, two management classes, and a finance class under my belt, in addition to the requisite english, calc I and II, and my vocational classes. So....to answer your question, I feel I'm at least semi-qualified to make these conjectures. I think they'll print 4.0 later rather than sooner because first off, they haven't milked 3.5 dry. Like I've said before, it's dumb to offer two opposed rule sets to your fans, because most of them will only buy one, and some might even get so mad that they stop buying both. Think of it as platform sharing. GM offered the Chevy Cavalier and the Pontiac Sunfire side by side for almost 20 years. Of course...they were essentially the same car, but they had different badging and slightly different exterior sheetmetal. The reason they did so well was because people had brand loyalty. Some would only buy Pontiacs, and some would only buy Chevys. Instead of offering a small car to only one brand and lose out on sales to the other, why not offer it to both?Their idea worked. That's why it lasted 20 years. It's the same with d20 Modern and D&D 3.5. Essentially the same game, (different really only in flavor and a few small mechanics) they both sell pretty well. However, if D&D offered D&D 3.5 and D&D 4.0 on the shelves at the same time, people would either get confused, mad, or just plain out not be able to afford the two of them. Odds are both would stagnate on the shelves, and not make the profits needed for the company to survive. Did I help any? |
| Vahenir05-02-05, 09:47 PM | No problem whatsoever. Why? Because Wizards is an absolute giant in the RPG industry. Even if a couple of those companies put out competing "3e" systems, they still would be massively behind the huge draw of the D&D brand name and Wizards distribution power. It absolutely is a problem. And it's a problem Wizards can't solve just by throwing their weight around. The fact is - people seem pretty happy that they can get pretty much any kind of product they want. If WotC doesn't make it - someone else does. And that someone else is making it for the d20 system. How convienent! Gamers are NOT going to give that priviledge up easily. There's a lot of freedom of choice in that simple fact. Making the OGL apply to Fourth Edition would definitely help this feeling.. .but probably not by a lot. Like I said before, there are literally hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of d20 products on the market right now. PDFs, hardcover, softcover.. whatever. That's a LOT of freedom to pick and choose exactly what you need. There's practically a book for every occasion, with ready-to-go rules that you can simply stick into your D&D game. By making a 4th Edition, WotC would be asking every gamer out there to lay aside every d20 product they've bought - because I imagine they won't be compatible with the new system (if they are, there wouldn't be a significant amount of changes - and thus would not warrant a new edition). I think you're vastly overestimating exactly how much weight WotC has to throw around, and vastly underestimating how closely people guard their purchases - which is directly relevant to what they want, and what they've already spent. It took GURPS a decade to release a new edition. And they waited until people were actually ASKING for a new edition! If it takes WotC any less - they're going to tick a lot of people off. Couple that with the fact that people aren't going to want to just give up the freedom of having such a HUGE AMOUNT of supplements and additions to the system at their fingertips.. and a Fourth Edition too soon is a recipe for disaster. What's everyone's thoughts on what Monte Cook said - that WotC is actually more likely to sell the D&D license rather than invest in a Fourth Edition? |
| Draco Strang05-02-05, 09:50 PM | What's everyone's thoughts on what Monte Cook said - that WotC is actually more likely to sell the D&D license rather than invest in a Fourth Edition? Where did you hear this? Is it on MonteCook.com or something? I certainly hope it's not the case. By and large, WOTC has done right by D&D, and I'd want them to continue that. After all, they are TSR's successor, and I'd kinda like it to stay in the family. Just a nostalgia thing, i guess. |
| CycloneRanger05-03-05, 01:56 PM | As for projects after early 2006? Well, I'm sure there's a Monster Manual IV in the works. III did pretty well, and they'd be fools to not give it another go. It looks like the Races of series is over, but the environment series, "Heroes of" series, and various creature books have yet to be penned. Who here wants to bet we see books about fey, goblinoids/orcs, giants, and another oneon demihumans like gnolls and minotaurs? People will buy them if they're anything like Draconomicon or Lords of Madness. Those were damn good books. The upcoming Weapons of Legacy makes me think that they want to start an item-based series, which would make sense. I could see a book aimed at the crafting of constructs. What about spell-compendiums? All of that's a possibility. Also, don't forget the barely-tapped well that is Eberron, and the vast regions of Faerun that haven't been touched yet (BRING BACK KARA-TUR!!!!). I did not realize that so many of these later supplements had been successful. I think my opinion has been colored by the fact that neither I nor my immediate friends bought Lords of Madness, Races of (anything), or Heroes of (anything). I sort of figured that everyone else saw them the same way. I can agree that the additional Monster Manual books have been useful (I'm glad my DM has them; I know far too much about the MM1). I wonder how well they are actually selling... that would probably be the deciding factor in how soon 4.0 is released/developed. Based on my personal buying habits, I would imagine sales are dropping off, now that everyone has the core rulebooks and the supplements they find important. The only real empirical evidence that I have is that I have not bought any of these newer books. I guess my scraping together of college funds has made me quite the tightwad. I think we need figures, though I sincerely doubt Wizards would release them to the public. I would buy a spell compendium if they made one. That is a good idea. I must have missed something about Weapons of Legacy, however. I have never heard of it. Did I miss an In the Works somewhere along the line? So - depending on how well the newer books are selling, I guess I can see a later release of 4.0. |
| weasel fierce05-03-05, 02:02 PM | well, I guess they can keep releasing prestige classes and feats for a while yet ;) And I do believe that the half-golem dragonblooded divine fiend gnoll still does not have a LA assigned to it [/sarcasm] |
| Vahenir05-03-05, 02:17 PM | Where did you hear this? Is it on MonteCook.com or something? I think so. I remember it from somewhere.. but I'm not sure if it's from his site or his message board. Either way, I know it was a rather subtle comment and I might even have misunderstood him, but I seem to recall his statement being pretty clear. I certainly hope it's not the case. By and large, WOTC has done right by D&D, and I'd want them to continue that. After all, they are TSR's successor, and I'd kinda like it to stay in the family. Just a nostalgia thing, i guess. TSR did good things too. It's possible that a "new company" could do even better. What if Malhavoc or Green Ronin bought the rights to make D&D Fourth Edition? I'm not saying I'd prefer that. Just that a change in ownership doesn't have to be a -bad- change. I think my opinion has been colored by the fact that neither I nor my immediate friends bought Lords of Madness, Races of (anything), or Heroes of (anything). I sort of figured that everyone else saw them the same way. Look around the boards. There are -lots- of people discussing stuff from new books. Which means they're still selling pretty well. I have Races of the Wild, and two of the three Complete... books. And I plan to get Heroes of Battle just for the fun of it. I'd say that the product lines are still going pretty strong. Just go to the 'Future Releases' board to see how many people are clamouring over what's coming next. Based on my personal buying habits, I would imagine sales are dropping off It's hard to base that concept on just your own buying habits. You should, at least, look around the boards and try some guesswork at about how many people here are still buying those same products. I think we need figures, though I sincerely doubt Wizards would release them to the public. Buy some stock in the company. They release the figures to stockholders. As a matter of fact, they have to. Weapons of Legacy, however. I have never heard of it. Did I miss an In the Works somewhere along the line? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/178620000 |
| Draco Strang05-03-05, 02:18 PM | The only real empirical evidence that I have is that I have not bought any of these newer books. I guess my scraping together of college funds has made me quite the tightwad. I think we need figures, though I sincerely doubt Wizards would release them to the public. Wow....you've used "empirical" in its proper context on these boards. You have my utter and undying respect good sir. And yea, I feel ya. I've been scraping as well. My D&D fund comes from doing brake jobs and oil changes on the side, either at people's houses or in the dorm parking lot. I must have missed something about Weapons of Legacy, however. I have never heard of it. Did I miss an In the Works somewhere along the line? Yea, it's coming. Something like August. I'm sure we'll see some sort of "legacy" series, or an item-based series. Oh, and the "Heroes of" books have yet to be released. Heroes of Battle drops this month, and Heroes of Horror is coming out in the fall. I'm sure there's at least another one or two in the works. And, let's not forget the Eberron line....like I said, that puppy has only just begun. |
| Attila05-03-05, 08:01 PM | I think so. I remember it from somewhere.. but I'm not sure if it's from his site or his message board. Either way, I know it was a rather subtle comment and I might even have misunderstood him, but I seem to recall his statement being pretty clear. TSR did good things too. It's possible that a "new company" could do even better. What if Malhavoc or Green Ronin bought the rights to make D&D Fourth Edition? I'm not saying I'd prefer that. Just that a change in ownership doesn't have to be a -bad- change.............. ........................................ .. Buy some stock in the company. They release the figures to stockholders. As a matter of fact, they have to. Any information released to stockholders is available to you (the general public) without buying stock. The problem is the information is too general to determine how D&D is doing. They are required to report by market segment but not by individual product lines. Unfortunately the D&D license is probably worth more to Hasbro than any third party would be willing to pay. Hasbro might just hold onto it for speculative value. |
| MerricB05-03-05, 09:22 PM | It absolutely is a problem. And it's a problem Wizards can't solve just by throwing their weight around. The fact is - people seem pretty happy that they can get pretty much any kind of product they want. If WotC doesn't make it - someone else does. And that someone else is making it for the d20 system. How convienent! Gamers are NOT going to give that priviledge up easily. There's a lot of freedom of choice in that simple fact. Making the OGL apply to Fourth Edition would definitely help this feeling.. .but probably not by a lot. I would say that most D&D gamers don't buy that many d20 System products - if any at all. There were a huge number of AD&D 2nd edition products out there, and people changed to 3rd edition in droves. Certainly there were people who didn't change - and such will be the case when 3rd edition becomes 4th edition. 4th edition will be judged on its merits. If it is a good update, then people will change. If it is a bad update, then people will stay with 3rd edition. The influence wielded by 4th edition books being the ones in print will be important. |
| MerricB05-03-05, 09:42 PM | I would buy a spell compendium if they made one. That is a good idea. I must have missed something about Weapons of Legacy, however. I have never heard of it. Did I miss an In the Works somewhere along the line? So - depending on how well the newer books are selling, I guess I can see a later release of 4.0. The latest Wizards catalogue has a bunch of interesting items that have been discussed on the boards. For ease of reference, I'll reproduce Wizards' upcoming products here: May * Heroes of Battle (Genre series) * Champions of Ruin (Forgotten Realms) June * Five Nations (Eberron) * Dungeon Master's Guide II July * Weapons of Legacy (Magic series) * City of Splendours: Waterdeep (Forgotten Realms) * Deluxe Eberron DM Screen August * Stormwrack (Environ series) * Explorer's Handbook (Eberron) * Deluxe Eberron Player Character Sheets September * Magic of Incarnum (Magic series) * Fane of the Drow (Fantastic Locations series) * Sons of Gruumsh (Forgotten Realms adventure) October * Heroes of Horror (Genre series) * Special Edition DMG * Magic of Eberron (Eberron) November * Hellspike Prison (Fantastic Locations series) * Champions of Valor (Forgotten Realms) December * D&D Spell Compendium ### Please note the entry for December. :) The "Fantastic Locations" are two double-sided poster maps for miniatures use, with a 16 page booklet with a D&D adventure and skirmish scenarios. Cheers! |
| Vahenir05-03-05, 10:16 PM | They are required to report by market segment but not by individual product lines. Excellent point. But that still gives you the generalities of whether or not WotC is doing well. And from that you can surmise whether D&D is making them money. It's a little guesswork, but it's better than knowing nothing at all. I would say that most D&D gamers don't buy that many d20 System products - if any at all. The sales at RPGnow would seem to disagree with you. As would the sales at Amazon and at the individual companies' websites. Green Ronin, Malhavoc Press, and Bastion Press, for example, are all doing very well. Green Ronin has sold out their first printings of pretty much all of their products - and have gone on to (in some cases) almost, or completely, sell out of their second run. Avalache Press, likewise, sold out its first printings of many of its books. And Malhavoc is doing well enough that Arcana Unearthed was revised, added to, and re-released as a much thicker "Arcana Evolved." I'd say your position that "most gamers" aren't buying from them is rather unfounded, and seems to contradict how well these companies are doing. 4th edition will be judged on its merits. If it is a good update, then people will change. If it is a bad update, then people will stay with 3rd edition. The influence wielded by 4th edition books being the ones in print will be important. Absolutely. But I'm saying two things: 1) That transition is made harder because gamers know there is -so much- out there for 3rd Edition. Most gamers could never even buy all the 3E products that have been published to date. That's a LOT of books. That's a LOT of options. Many gamers may see going to 4th Edition as a downgrade (option-wise) - especially if the OGL ceases to apply to Fourth Edition. If the OGL applies to Fourth Edition - that will probably sway more than one person to make the switch. But even then, many gamers probably already have all they need to ever be happy gaming. Gritty rules, Roman Empire rules, Ancient Egypt rules, Ancient Greece rules, Medieval England rules - and that's all from just -one- company. I don't think you're allowing yourself to really absorb just how much many gamers would be giving up by switching editions - especially if it's totally incompatible with the previous edition. 2) If the OGL does not cease to function for 3E after 4E is released, that means other publishers could -continue- to support 3E. A big issue for 2E fans was that they were no longer being supported - in any way (there was no OGL back then). If 3E is still being prominently supported by other companies - again, that will make the switch for many gamers even LESS likely. I'm not saying no one will switch. I'm saying these are things WotC MUST be considering. I have absolutely no doubt they've talked about these very issues. |
| DMDaddy05-03-05, 10:28 PM | And yea, I feel ya. I've been scraping as well. My D&D fund comes from doing brake jobs and oil changes on the side, either at people's houses or in the dorm parking lot. Me thinks there be magic involved. Some kind of higher curse, since I too be scraping and oil changes in other yards. I too am a college student with a wife and 3 boys, at a Texas University. |
| MerricB05-03-05, 10:53 PM | I don't think you're allowing yourself to really absorb just how much many gamers would be giving up by switching editions - especially if it's totally incompatible with the previous edition. Perhaps. :) Cheers! |
| Korhal_IV05-03-05, 10:54 PM | If WotC goes to 4th edition, they will take the OGL with them. Otherwise 4e would not be nearly as profitable. IMO, this means WotC is probably more likely to sell the D&D license than make a 4th edition, or go out of their way to contact 3rd party publishers about this and fax 'em the system while it's in development. |
| Vahenir05-03-05, 11:02 PM | It's definitely quite possible that Fourth Edition (IF WotC makes it themselves) will have an OGL associated with it. I'd be curious to see if that causes the expiration of the 3E OGL, myself. |
| DMDaddy05-03-05, 11:03 PM | What ever these companies do (Wotc), I don't know. But, I do know that I won't upgrade after 3.5 unless they offer a 4th edition that makes me spit diamonds out my butt. That's absolutely the only way I will upgrade. However, time can change that idea. The real question is: How much time? Because many consumers are saying this very same thing. |
| Draco Strang05-03-05, 11:06 PM | Me thinks there be magic involved. Some kind of higher curse, since I too be scraping and oil changes in other yards. I too am a college student with a wife and 3 boys, at a Texas University. Wow....your meal plan must be strained to the breaking point. :D |
| DMDaddy05-03-05, 11:10 PM | Wow....your meal plan must be strained to the breaking point. :D My meal plan involves what ever crawls in the forest between my house and the neighbors, even if it meows or barks. Sometimes I have to do a monster summoning I and then kill it just to eat. |
| Draco Strang05-03-05, 11:13 PM | Sometimes I have to do a monster summoning I and then kill it just to eat. Then you aren't playing by the RAW. When a monster is killed or its spell duration ends, it just disappears back to wherever it was summoned from. |
| weasel fierce05-04-05, 12:28 AM | There were a huge number of AD&D 2nd edition products out there, and people changed to 3rd edition in droves. Given the kind of "creative management" that drove 2nd edition AD&D, that is hardly surprising. Its funny actually, I have introduced a fair number of people to oAD&D and 2nd edition fans (or former such) tend to be almost impossible to get to even give it a shot, whereas those who started with 3.whatever tend to less ill disposed towards it. |
| Ut-Napishtim05-04-05, 01:31 AM | You know, I wouldn't be surprised if WOTC revises the Planescape setting for 3.5 and gives it another run. It seemed fairly successful back in 2E, and lends itself easily to the high-powered style that is nigh ubiquitous among most players these days. :thinks: |
| weasel fierce05-04-05, 01:33 AM | Planescape was also pretty unique really. Im not a huge fan, but I think they could do a lot of things with that |
| Draco Strang05-04-05, 02:05 AM | You know, I wouldn't be surprised if WOTC revises the Planescape setting for 3.5 and gives it another run. It seemed fairly successful back in 2E, and lends itself easily to the high-powered style that is nigh ubiquitous among most players these days. :thinks: I wanna see DarkSun and a revival of Kara-Tur/Maztica for Forgotten Realms. Don't TELL me they're ignoring this stuff. |
| MerricB05-04-05, 05:45 AM | You know, I wouldn't be surprised if WOTC revises the Planescape setting for 3.5 and gives it another run. It seemed fairly successful back in 2E, and lends itself easily to the high-powered style that is nigh ubiquitous among most players these days. :thinks: So not going to happen. Planescape is dead, but elements live on in the Manual of the Planes and the Planar Handbook. All the elements you need to run a Planescape campaign are here in 3.5e, you just need the will. Cheers! |
| Palin the Wizard05-04-05, 08:12 AM | Gentlemen... if you want Planescape material for 3.5, it's out there. Planewalker.com (http://www.planewalker.com/index.php) |
| Vahenir05-04-05, 11:09 AM | I'm pretty sure WotC has already been clear that they won't be re-releasing any older settings. That's supported by the fact that WotC actually made a few fansites the "official" places for 3E info on those settings. That's really too bad, too. WotC could have made a lot of money selling Birthright, Planescape, and Al-Quadim 3E. |
| Draco Strang05-04-05, 12:25 PM | I'm pretty sure WotC has already been clear that they won't be re-releasing any older settings. That's supported by the fact that WotC actually made a few fansites the "official" places for 3E info on those settings. That's really too bad, too. WotC could have made a lot of money selling Birthright, Planescape, and Al-Quadim 3E. Dammit, I'm holding out for Darksun. that one article in Dragon (or was it Dungeon) just didn't do it for me. |
| Escef05-04-05, 01:41 PM | That's really too bad, too. WotC could have made a lot of money selling Birthright, Planescape, and Al-Quadim 3E. Cost effectiveness, my man. They wouldn't have made enough money to justify shelving or delaying other projects. And I suspect it would have been a much smaller profit margin. That's why other campaign settings were licensed out, WotC doesn't have the time for them, but a smaller company can better fill the needs of such niche markets. |
| Ut-Napishtim05-04-05, 02:16 PM | Developing? I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised if all those old settings saw a re-do when the next series of books runs dry. After all, all they have to do is take the old stuff, move it around, change the format, art and typeface, maybe throw out a couple new ideas so that it seems fresh, then translate the stats into 3.5. It's not like there's a whole lot new about the supported campaign settings that are coming out, they're just updated and re-hashed. Anyone familiar with both editions could probably gather up all the stuff for say... 2E Darksun and have a campaign book ready for the printer in a month. Unless of course WOTC sold the license for these settings to third-party publishers or something - that could be bad. Paul was still trying to get his songs back from Michael Jackson last I heard. |
| CycloneRanger05-04-05, 10:51 PM | Wow....you've used "empirical" in its proper context on these boards. You have my utter and undying respect good sir. Thank you. As for the original question posed, I can see a reason to postpone the release of 4.0 for at least a while. I only wonder what WotC will do as sales of the original core rulebooks fall. Ultimately, there is a great advantage to offering a product that is perceived as a "necessity" rather than simply as desirable. I think that as sales of these books continue to decline, both because many people already have them and because the hype from the new edition is dying down, WotC will look more towards something new. It would seem that I was indeed wrong about the popularity of the supplements. A word of caution, however... Many of you have been pointing out that the sales of supplements must be high because there is much excitement about them here on these boards. I would be wary of this line of reasoning, as we are a very self-selected group. We are all here because we like D&D quite a bit; we are necessarily going to have a more favorable outlook toward such books than the general populace. Looking only at the reactions on these boards to new releases would be like asking the Mars Society if they approved of an increase in government-funded manned space exploration. Remember that we are hardly a representative group; that was the mistake I made earlier when I assumed that my buying habits must be similar to those of the rest of the world. |
| DMDaddy05-05-05, 12:03 AM | Thank you. As for the original question posed, I can see a reason to postpone the release of 4.0 for at least a while. I only wonder what WotC will do as sales of the original core rulebooks fall. Ultimately, there is a great advantage to offering a product that is perceived as a "necessity" rather than simply as desirable. I think that as sales of these books continue to decline, both because many people already have them and because the hype from the new edition is dying down, WotC will look more towards something new. It would seem that I was indeed wrong about the popularity of the supplements. A word of caution, however... Many of you have been pointing out that the sales of supplements must be high because there is much excitement about them here on these boards. I would be wary of this line of reasoning, as we are a very self-selected group. We are all here because we like D&D quite a bit; we are necessarily going to have a more favorable outlook toward such books than the general populace. Looking only at the reactions on these boards to new releases would be like asking the Mars Society if they approved of an increase in government-funded manned space exploration. Remember that we are hardly a representative group; that was the mistake I made earlier when I assumed that my buying habits must be similar to those of the rest of the world. Excellent post. I agree and would think that when sales of core books die, they will have a few options. One, being to re-introduce the same books, but with cheaper paper and art work at a lesser price to the consumer. $19.99 for each. (just a possibility if there is a reasonable profit). Also, why won't they offer modules again? Not remakes of old modules, but new modules? As a consumer who is wary of high spending, my budget is only for the core books and modules. Are they already offering modules for the Eberron campaign setting? If so, then I'd be willing to buy the Eberron core material with the additional modules. |
| Draco Strang05-05-05, 12:54 AM | Also, why won't they offer modules again? Not remakes of old modules, but new modules? Well, they are going to put out a few Forgotten Realms modules (they're in the upcoming release schedule), and they've already done three Eberron ones. The problem with modules is that you have to pay writers, designers, artists, and playtesters for them. And then they only go for about 10 bucks retail. God knows what WOTC actually sees of that. Their investment/return ratio isn't as high as other things, and thus they're just not as good of a business proposition as a book. That's why they're so hesitant to make more. Thank God for all those good 3rd party guys that can do modules a lot cheaper. Without them, there'd be none. |
| Reinforcements05-05-05, 12:56 AM | Excellent post. I agree and would think that when sales of core books die, they will have a few options. One, being to re-introduce the same books, but with cheaper paper and art work at a lesser price to the consumer. $19.99 for each. (just a possibility if there is a reasonable profit). Also, why won't they offer modules again? Not remakes of old modules, but new modules? As a consumer who is wary of high spending, my budget is only for the core books and modules. Are they already offering modules for the Eberron campaign setting? If so, then I'd be willing to buy the Eberron core material with the additional modules. They've been over this. The long and short of it is adventures don't sell, so they don't make them. Every so often a thread will pop up lamenting the lack of adventure modules, with a few replies to the tune of, "Yeah man, seriously!" until someone informs them of this fact. People don't buy adventures. |
| Escef05-05-05, 10:35 AM | Sales of core rulebooks will not "die". They will go low, but the sales will still be there. There are always new people joining the game and also replacing PHBs lost to theft, abuse, or miscellaneous disaster. |
| Draco Strang05-05-05, 10:51 AM | Sales of core rulebooks will not "die". They will go low, but the sales will still be there. There are always new people joining the game and also replacing PHBs lost to theft, abuse, or miscellaneous disaster. Hear Hear! I had a set of the core 3.5 books, and when I came to college, I sold them all to one of my buddies for 20 bucks apiece, turned around, and bought a new set from a friend who worked at Borders and got them for 40% off. I actually made a few bucks. Does this make me a bad person? |
| Escef05-05-05, 10:55 AM | I actually made a few bucks. Does this make me a bad person? I forsee a future in buisness for this one. |
| DMDaddy05-05-05, 11:55 AM | Their investment/return ratio isn't as high as other things, and thus they're just not as good of a business proposition as a book. That's why they're so hesitant to make more. Thank God for all those good 3rd party guys that can do modules a lot cheaper. Without them, there'd be none. Without knowing the exact numbers spent to produce and market a module I really can't say, except: reduce quality and lower costs in other areas. Oh well. I guess third party modules will have to do. |
| MerricB05-05-05, 07:37 PM | It is worth noting that Wizards are producing adventures again, and there are "adventures" in many recent books (such as Sandstorm). "Sons of Gruumsh", a FR adventure is due out later this year. If these are successful enough, then Wizards will continue to produce them. Cheers! |
| Draco Strang05-05-05, 07:49 PM | I forsee a future in buisness for this one. Hey, it is my major. I want to buy and sell your sou....er......have a career in finance. Yea, that's it. Without knowing the exact numbers spent to produce and market a module I really can't say, except: reduce quality and lower costs in other areas. Oh well. I guess third party modules will have to do. Well, problem is, they can't really cut anymore from modules. The things are pretty minimal as it is. Art isn't that prevalant, so that's down. The things are only about 30 pages (ignore CotSQ and RttToEE), and the covers are just thick cardstock. Staples for binding, and a few maps on the inside cover. Bare essentials, really. Where is there to cut costs? All you can really do is hire cheaper authors. Do you want a sub-standard module, or no module at all? I'd rather have none than waste my money on a lukewarm product. |
| DMDaddy05-05-05, 08:30 PM | Well, problem is, they can't really cut anymore from modules. The things are pretty minimal as it is. . This is not actually true. Unless you can show numbers, I propose that costs can be cut in some way. Even if they offered online downloads in some form with some kind of protection rights. There is a way. Where is there to cut costs? All you can really do is hire cheaper authors. Do you want a sub-standard module, or no module at all? I'd rather have none than waste my money on a lukewarm product. No color, cheaper paper, yes, hire cheaper authors. Why would a cheaper author make it sub-standard? Unless... Well, I won't go there cause I'm a die-hard buy american-only, so I understand. Reduce shipping costs, mail order only, smaller print, condensced information. You can't tell me they won't make a profit off modules. I'm a Business major also, with less than a year to go. I know that they have a market (even a niche for modules). It can be done. Me, and 100s I know are one module-a-month dudes. Bottom line is, REDUCE COSTS. |
| Draco Strang05-05-05, 08:36 PM | You can't tell me they won't make a profit off modules. I'm a Business major also, with less than a year to go. I know that they have a market (even a niche for modules). It can be done. Me, and 100s I know are one module-a-month dudes. Bottom line is, REDUCE COSTS. Oh this is entirely true. There is a niche for modules. That's why 3rd party publishers do them. Smaller profit, so it's made by a smaller company. WOTC won't waste their authors on something that will eke out a small profit, when they can use those same authors on a 30 dollar supplement. I agree though, it'd be possible to make them better and cheaper. To be fair, they are working on a few new modules for Forgotten Realms. I am ssooooooo excited about these. I love the Realms. |