D&D 4th Edition = Why the arguing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

D&D 4th Edition = Why the arguing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Victor_Phoenix
08-15-06, 12:12 PM We know as gamers for it to still profitable and a fun game to play, D&D will have to create a 4th edition.

Which mean it is a question of when not if. I believe anyone of importance can agree on that.

So if it is a question of when why are fighting? This kind of crap happens all the time with the Disasters in the World.

We are so caught up in the when we are not prepared when it dose happen.

What I think is maybe we should help.

Our voices here on these boards have altered the game before though we don't speak for all gamers we do speak as a large magority and we usually have censical well formed idea's.

Instead of try to figure out when its going to happen lets talk about things we would like to see.

Give idea's on things to change. Maybe even come up with a system our selves that could be used to run 4th Edition.

Some things to remeber: D&D needs to be a level dependant system it is that way because it has it's nich.
D&D needs to have a open end for the publishing of crap tons of supplements. Supplements are what keeps a game alive by bringing in revenue.
It needs to have a round based combat system unless you can come up with something diffrent.
It needs to have magic and magic items,

Just some Idea's
Vol
08-15-06, 12:29 PM We know as gamers for it to still profitable and a fun game to play, D&D will have to create a 4th edition.

Our voices here on these boards have altered the game before though we don't speak for all gamers we do speak as a large magority and we usually have censical well formed idea's.

Total BS
The_Black_Dragon
08-15-06, 12:29 PM I just learned from Zherog in his report on GenCon that Wizards has stated that they aren't going to just spring it on us. They'll let everyone know plenty ahead of time, and they still have a lot planned for 3.5.

So, I think that we can let 4th edition topics die again. (Yes, even the ones I started. :P)
Millennium
08-15-06, 12:39 PM We know as gamers for it to still profitable and a fun game to play, D&D will have to create a 4th edition.
Actually, I disagree. Why is a fourth edition necessary, as opposed to producing new material for 3.5? For that matter, why is a fourth edition necessary to keep the game fun?

If Wizards wants to do these things, of course, that's their prerogative. But it is by no means necessary for them to do it.
ZeronHitaro
08-15-06, 01:07 PM Actually, I disagree. Why is a fourth edition necessary, as opposed to producing new material for 3.5? For that matter, why is a fourth edition necessary to keep the game fun?

If Wizards wants to do these things, of course, that's their prerogative. But it is by no means necessary for them to do it.

Here's my 2 cp to back up this opinion.

It's hard enough to find a D&D game without adding another genre of players to the fold.

Allow me to elaborate:

You have the following versions-
V 1.0
V 2.0 (also known as AD&D)
V 3.0
V 3.5
DDO

That's 5 varriations of the same game. D&D players outside of conventions are a relatively rare breed compared to other activities that consume time (such as bowling, movie going, sports, ect.) Now take those rare players (let's say 10 players per every 1000 people) and give them 5 different versions to chose from based on taste.

Some people like 1.0, some would rather die that play AD&D, some hate 3.5 with a passion and would rather play 3.0, ect. For equality's sake, we can take the 10 out of a 1000 people and say:

2 like 1.0
2 like 2.0
2 like 3.0
2 like 3.5
2 like DDO

It takes more than 2 people to play a D&D game effciently without a fair ammount of recalibration. I have nothing against newer versions, however we don't have enough players overall for the system to handle such strain. 4.0 will be the 6th varriation of D&D even further spreading the diversity of players amongst the same game. Now fairness and stats aside, I'll bring up my real life situation into play.

In my community of about..oh...at least 50K+ people (fair sized college town), we have about 20-30 D&D players (and lord knows how many LARPers). Of those 30 D&D players, many of them are older and prefer the older additions (mains AD&D). I'm a younger (compared to most D&D players) generation and just got on the D&D train at version 3.5. Most of the younger (by my D&D community's standards) got on at 3.0.

Here in lies the problem: Money.

Not all of us have the cash to go out and buy lots of older (or newer) D&D core products, so we're kinda stuck in the version we jumped on at (not accounting for stubborness and unwillingness to play other versions). So finding a game for 3.5 in my area is neigh impossible. I've had one gaming group I was a part of that played 3.5 for about 6 months or so, we've started to break up due to jobs and what not (mostly for the older ones of the group), and I've tried to start my own game but not even one person showed interest.

Finally concluded by stating that releasing another version of D&D will only serve to further divide the D&D community amongst itself, making it harder and harder to find games to play in. I estimate that by version 5.0 D&D will destroy itself by having players so far divded in taste that the only time games get played will be at conventions where thousands of players gather, and by that point it will only be for nostalgia as everyone will have lost interest due to being separated from the game for so long. If you don't feed a craving for long enough, you'll eventually lose taste for it and find something more easily satisfied.
trolloc
08-15-06, 03:04 PM ^ also, just to add, campaign settings preference divided the players just a little.
Mitchell
08-16-06, 01:41 AM 1) You missed 2nd edition in there.
2) I believe that a fair portion of the player base will move along to the most recent edition. It will not, in my opinion, break down into an even amount of people playing each edition. The exact numbers may change, but there are more ADnD/2nd edition players now playing 3.X than there are playing ADnD/2nd edition, I would wager. If sufficiently innovative, as I feel 3.X is over the previous editions (all the way back to basic), then players will follow.
3) The online game is a totally different animal. Yes, some people may play it only because it's DnD, but there are also people who play it that have never, or would never, play the PnP game. It may encourage some people to try the PnP game, but I don't believe it takes any of the potential player base away. I consider this similar to the miniatures game.
4) Product, product, product. The upside is that you have plenty of material to choose from, and WotC appreciates your business. The downside is that prospective players (or their parents) may be turned off if they look at the quantity of product and the price tags. A new edition means less product that people may feel the need to buy to get started. If you tell people that they will have to spend $1000.00 on this, they may be instantly turned off. If you tell people that they have to spend $100.00 on this, then later give them the opportunity to give you another few $$$ here and there, you are more likely to get your $1000.00.
DarkThoughts24
08-16-06, 08:47 AM My guess is ad&d 2d=2.5 in his eyes.

many people questioned the need for 3e in the 2e days, but honetly in hindsight it was needed. the constantly high/low rolls were bewildering to many new players. the almost generic system for all functions in 3e/d20 made it so much easier to teach and spread.

3.5 was a less important creation. aside for a few key refinements, and fixing a few classes, it really wasn't that necessary. but in hindsight it's nothing that was complained about after its release

in a few years, when 4.0 is released (or 3.75 as I expect) there will be chafing but an acceptance after the fact.
Stormonu
08-17-06, 04:51 AM Actually, for editions, I'd put

OD&D (Including Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortal)
1E
1E+ (Unearthed Arcana, Dungeoneer's and Wilderness Survival Guide)
2E
2E+ (Player's options books)
3E
3.5E

We are slowly edging toward 4.0, but there's no need to push it. The game is still playable as it is and WotC apparently feels its can still milk the system for a lot of potential. I'd like to see 3.5 last for several more years to come; I'm actually not expecting 4.0 until 2009 or later.
babysamurai
08-17-06, 05:01 AM I'm actually not expecting 4.0 until 2009 or later.

Well if we go by previous editions - I’m thinking 2010/2011.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
08-18-06, 01:41 AM Well if we go by previous editions - I’m thinking 2010/2011.
I'm putting it at 2012. That's usually how long an edition lasts.
Ranger REG
08-18-06, 01:48 AM Well if we go by previous editions...
Except we're not going by that pattern. 3.5e (aka Third Edition Revised) release pretty much derailed that pattern.

You see, between 2nd Edition and 2nd Edition Revised, there was a gap of 6 years. Between 3.0e and 3.5e, the gap shortens to 3 years.
babysamurai
08-18-06, 04:15 AM Except we're not going by that pattern. 3.5e (aka Third Edition Revised) release pretty much derailed that pattern.

You see, between 2nd Edition and 2nd Edition Revised, there was a gap of 6 years. Between 3.0e and 3.5e, the gap shortens to 3 years.

So by this reasoning, 4th edition is already out?
Seeker95
08-18-06, 09:11 AM I'm assuming it will be announced in 2007, with a 2008 release.
And I don't feel at all threatened or betrayed by WotC for doing so.
babysamurai
08-18-06, 09:30 AM I'm assuming it will be announced in 2007, with a 2008 release.

Just curious – why so?
Seeker95
08-18-06, 02:38 PM Based solely upon "gut feeling". It allows over a year of continued content development, letting WotC move through the current pipeline of products and product ideas. The specialized nature of so many of the current products implies to me that the broader market items are already tapped.

However, I also think it may be possible to see a "4e from 3e" approach instead. 2e was not so significantly different from 1e that you could not use the sourcebooks interchangably. This could also be the case for a 4e. Perhaps 4e will be a "re-Core" instead of a "brand new, never before seen, unlike anything that has come before" edition.

For example... it would not be impossible to re-tool the PHB to strip everything down to 4 classes and building characters using a greater Feat, Skill and flavor approach.

It also would justify a new "edition" if Epic rules were discarded for a class progression system that took PCs from level 1 to level whatever.

Either of these changes are significant enough to need a new Core Book publication, but not significant enough to invalidate all the supplements people have purchased for 3e.
Ranger REG
08-18-06, 07:41 PM So by this reasoning, 4th edition is already out?
:uh-huh: Yeah, you missed it. :P

All I know is WotC is most likely to shoot for any date prior to 2009. That also means, I will dread it.
ArchMage0271
08-19-06, 12:36 AM Speculation, speculation, speculation..... My god who cares? There should be no 4.0 release....... If you really want to know what is going on email WOTC and ask them..... These constant threads about 4.0 are pointless....

Why not do this......... Beat WOTC to the punch... Instead of speculating about the release of a 4.0, everyone on these threads that knows what they want to change get together and change it and publish a community 4.0....

I have the name concept for you already... call it CD&D 4.0....

I come to these threads to learn about the game not about the eventual release of 4.0....

ALL speculation!!!!!!!

That said, I see that gamers have 3 choices

1 sit and wait for 4.0
2 Create the version ourselves( CD&D 4.0 )
3 Sit down, shutup, forget about it and play 3.5

Nuff said!!!!!!!
Zaxon D'Mir
08-19-06, 01:03 AM Based solely upon "gut feeling". It allows over a year of continued content development, letting WotC move through the current pipeline of products and product ideas. The specialized nature of so many of the current products implies to me that the broader market items are already tapped.

However, I also think it may be possible to see a "4e from 3e" approach instead. 2e was not so significantly different from 1e that you could not use the sourcebooks interchangably. This could also be the case for a 4e. Perhaps 4e will be a "re-Core" instead of a "brand new, never before seen, unlike anything that has come before" edition.

For example... it would not be impossible to re-tool the PHB to strip everything down to 4 classes and building characters using a greater Feat, Skill and flavor approach.

It also would justify a new "edition" if Epic rules were discarded for a class progression system that took PCs from level 1 to level whatever.

Either of these changes are significant enough to need a new Core Book publication, but not significant enough to invalidate all the supplements people have purchased for 3e.

I was kinda thinking something along these lines too Seeker. Isn't funny how 2.5 was introduced in the player's options around 1995, approx. 6 years into 2e. Here we are 6 years into 3e and we have such splendid supplements like PHBII and DMGII. It's basically 3.75 imho. 4e will take areas of both supplements and make them core/basic. 4e will become a mammoth revisonary process implementing the best ideas between 2000 to say 2007 without completely changing the core mechanic, only some streamlining.

It will be the same house only newer furniture in the living room.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Victor_Phoenix 08-15-06, 12:12 PM	We know as gamers for it to still profitable and a fun game to play, D&D will have to create a 4th edition. Which mean it is a question of when not if. I believe anyone of importance can agree on that. So if it is a question of when why are fighting? This kind of crap happens all the time with the Disasters in the World. We are so caught up in the when we are not prepared when it dose happen. What I think is maybe we should help. Our voices here on these boards have altered the game before though we don't speak for all gamers we do speak as a large magority and we usually have censical well formed idea's. Instead of try to figure out when its going to happen lets talk about things we would like to see. Give idea's on things to change. Maybe even come up with a system our selves that could be used to run 4th Edition. Some things to remeber: D&D needs to be a level dependant system it is that way because it has it's nich. D&D needs to have a open end for the publishing of crap tons of supplements. Supplements are what keeps a game alive by bringing in revenue. It needs to have a round based combat system unless you can come up with something diffrent. It needs to have magic and magic items, Just some Idea's
Vol 08-15-06, 12:29 PM	We know as gamers for it to still profitable and a fun game to play, D&D will have to create a 4th edition. Our voices here on these boards have altered the game before though we don't speak for all gamers we do speak as a large magority and we usually have censical well formed idea's. Total BS
The_Black_Dragon 08-15-06, 12:29 PM	I just learned from Zherog in his report on GenCon that Wizards has stated that they aren't going to just spring it on us. They'll let everyone know plenty ahead of time, and they still have a lot planned for 3.5. So, I think that we can let 4th edition topics die again. (Yes, even the ones I started. :P)
Millennium 08-15-06, 12:39 PM	We know as gamers for it to still profitable and a fun game to play, D&D will have to create a 4th edition. Actually, I disagree. Why is a fourth edition necessary, as opposed to producing new material for 3.5? For that matter, why is a fourth edition necessary to keep the game fun? If Wizards wants to do these things, of course, that's their prerogative. But it is by no means necessary for them to do it.
ZeronHitaro 08-15-06, 01:07 PM	Actually, I disagree. Why is a fourth edition necessary, as opposed to producing new material for 3.5? For that matter, why is a fourth edition necessary to keep the game fun? If Wizards wants to do these things, of course, that's their prerogative. But it is by no means necessary for them to do it. Here's my 2 cp to back up this opinion. It's hard enough to find a D&D game without adding another genre of players to the fold. Allow me to elaborate: You have the following versions- V 1.0 V 2.0 (also known as AD&D) V 3.0 V 3.5 DDO That's 5 varriations of the same game. D&D players outside of conventions are a relatively rare breed compared to other activities that consume time (such as bowling, movie going, sports, ect.) Now take those rare players (let's say 10 players per every 1000 people) and give them 5 different versions to chose from based on taste. Some people like 1.0, some would rather die that play AD&D, some hate 3.5 with a passion and would rather play 3.0, ect. For equality's sake, we can take the 10 out of a 1000 people and say: 2 like 1.0 2 like 2.0 2 like 3.0 2 like 3.5 2 like DDO It takes more than 2 people to play a D&D game effciently without a fair ammount of recalibration. I have nothing against newer versions, however we don't have enough players overall for the system to handle such strain. 4.0 will be the 6th varriation of D&D even further spreading the diversity of players amongst the same game. Now fairness and stats aside, I'll bring up my real life situation into play. In my community of about..oh...at least 50K+ people (fair sized college town), we have about 20-30 D&D players (and lord knows how many LARPers). Of those 30 D&D players, many of them are older and prefer the older additions (mains AD&D). I'm a younger (compared to most D&D players) generation and just got on the D&D train at version 3.5. Most of the younger (by my D&D community's standards) got on at 3.0. Here in lies the problem: Money. Not all of us have the cash to go out and buy lots of older (or newer) D&D core products, so we're kinda stuck in the version we jumped on at (not accounting for stubborness and unwillingness to play other versions). So finding a game for 3.5 in my area is neigh impossible. I've had one gaming group I was a part of that played 3.5 for about 6 months or so, we've started to break up due to jobs and what not (mostly for the older ones of the group), and I've tried to start my own game but not even one person showed interest. Finally concluded by stating that releasing another version of D&D will only serve to further divide the D&D community amongst itself, making it harder and harder to find games to play in. I estimate that by version 5.0 D&D will destroy itself by having players so far divded in taste that the only time games get played will be at conventions where thousands of players gather, and by that point it will only be for nostalgia as everyone will have lost interest due to being separated from the game for so long. If you don't feed a craving for long enough, you'll eventually lose taste for it and find something more easily satisfied.
trolloc 08-15-06, 03:04 PM	^ also, just to add, campaign settings preference divided the players just a little.
Mitchell 08-16-06, 01:41 AM	1) You missed 2nd edition in there. 2) I believe that a fair portion of the player base will move along to the most recent edition. It will not, in my opinion, break down into an even amount of people playing each edition. The exact numbers may change, but there are more ADnD/2nd edition players now playing 3.X than there are playing ADnD/2nd edition, I would wager. If sufficiently innovative, as I feel 3.X is over the previous editions (all the way back to basic), then players will follow. 3) The online game is a totally different animal. Yes, some people may play it only because it's DnD, but there are also people who play it that have never, or would never, play the PnP game. It may encourage some people to try the PnP game, but I don't believe it takes any of the potential player base away. I consider this similar to the miniatures game. 4) Product, product, product. The upside is that you have plenty of material to choose from, and WotC appreciates your business. The downside is that prospective players (or their parents) may be turned off if they look at the quantity of product and the price tags. A new edition means less product that people may feel the need to buy to get started. If you tell people that they will have to spend $1000.00 on this, they may be instantly turned off. If you tell people that they have to spend $100.00 on this, then later give them the opportunity to give you another few $$$ here and there, you are more likely to get your $1000.00.
DarkThoughts24 08-16-06, 08:47 AM	My guess is ad&d 2d=2.5 in his eyes. many people questioned the need for 3e in the 2e days, but honetly in hindsight it was needed. the constantly high/low rolls were bewildering to many new players. the almost generic system for all functions in 3e/d20 made it so much easier to teach and spread. 3.5 was a less important creation. aside for a few key refinements, and fixing a few classes, it really wasn't that necessary. but in hindsight it's nothing that was complained about after its release in a few years, when 4.0 is released (or 3.75 as I expect) there will be chafing but an acceptance after the fact.
Stormonu 08-17-06, 04:51 AM	Actually, for editions, I'd put OD&D (Including Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortal) 1E 1E+ (Unearthed Arcana, Dungeoneer's and Wilderness Survival Guide) 2E 2E+ (Player's options books) 3E 3.5E We are slowly edging toward 4.0, but there's no need to push it. The game is still playable as it is and WotC apparently feels its can still milk the system for a lot of potential. I'd like to see 3.5 last for several more years to come; I'm actually not expecting 4.0 until 2009 or later.
babysamurai 08-17-06, 05:01 AM	I'm actually not expecting 4.0 until 2009 or later. Well if we go by previous editions - I’m thinking 2010/2011.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-18-06, 01:41 AM	Well if we go by previous editions - I’m thinking 2010/2011. I'm putting it at 2012. That's usually how long an edition lasts.
Ranger REG 08-18-06, 01:48 AM	Well if we go by previous editions... Except we're not going by that pattern. 3.5e (aka Third Edition Revised) release pretty much derailed that pattern. You see, between 2nd Edition and 2nd Edition Revised, there was a gap of 6 years. Between 3.0e and 3.5e, the gap shortens to 3 years.
babysamurai 08-18-06, 04:15 AM	Except we're not going by that pattern. 3.5e (aka Third Edition Revised) release pretty much derailed that pattern. You see, between 2nd Edition and 2nd Edition Revised, there was a gap of 6 years. Between 3.0e and 3.5e, the gap shortens to 3 years. So by this reasoning, 4th edition is already out?
Seeker95 08-18-06, 09:11 AM	I'm assuming it will be announced in 2007, with a 2008 release. And I don't feel at all threatened or betrayed by WotC for doing so.
babysamurai 08-18-06, 09:30 AM	I'm assuming it will be announced in 2007, with a 2008 release. Just curious – why so?
Seeker95 08-18-06, 02:38 PM	Based solely upon "gut feeling". It allows over a year of continued content development, letting WotC move through the current pipeline of products and product ideas. The specialized nature of so many of the current products implies to me that the broader market items are already tapped. However, I also think it may be possible to see a "4e from 3e" approach instead. 2e was not so significantly different from 1e that you could not use the sourcebooks interchangably. This could also be the case for a 4e. Perhaps 4e will be a "re-Core" instead of a "brand new, never before seen, unlike anything that has come before" edition. For example... it would not be impossible to re-tool the PHB to strip everything down to 4 classes and building characters using a greater Feat, Skill and flavor approach. It also would justify a new "edition" if Epic rules were discarded for a class progression system that took PCs from level 1 to level whatever. Either of these changes are significant enough to need a new Core Book publication, but not significant enough to invalidate all the supplements people have purchased for 3e.
Ranger REG 08-18-06, 07:41 PM	So by this reasoning, 4th edition is already out? :uh-huh: Yeah, you missed it. :P All I know is WotC is most likely to shoot for any date prior to 2009. That also means, I will dread it.
ArchMage0271 08-19-06, 12:36 AM	Speculation, speculation, speculation..... My god who cares? There should be no 4.0 release....... If you really want to know what is going on email WOTC and ask them..... These constant threads about 4.0 are pointless.... Why not do this......... Beat WOTC to the punch... Instead of speculating about the release of a 4.0, everyone on these threads that knows what they want to change get together and change it and publish a community 4.0.... I have the name concept for you already... call it CD&D 4.0.... I come to these threads to learn about the game not about the eventual release of 4.0.... ALL speculation!!!!!!! That said, I see that gamers have 3 choices 1 sit and wait for 4.0 2 Create the version ourselves( CD&D 4.0 ) 3 Sit down, shutup, forget about it and play 3.5 Nuff said!!!!!!!
Zaxon D'Mir 08-19-06, 01:03 AM	Based solely upon "gut feeling". It allows over a year of continued content development, letting WotC move through the current pipeline of products and product ideas. The specialized nature of so many of the current products implies to me that the broader market items are already tapped. However, I also think it may be possible to see a "4e from 3e" approach instead. 2e was not so significantly different from 1e that you could not use the sourcebooks interchangably. This could also be the case for a 4e. Perhaps 4e will be a "re-Core" instead of a "brand new, never before seen, unlike anything that has come before" edition. For example... it would not be impossible to re-tool the PHB to strip everything down to 4 classes and building characters using a greater Feat, Skill and flavor approach. It also would justify a new "edition" if Epic rules were discarded for a class progression system that took PCs from level 1 to level whatever. Either of these changes are significant enough to need a new Core Book publication, but not significant enough to invalidate all the supplements people have purchased for 3e. I was kinda thinking something along these lines too Seeker. Isn't funny how 2.5 was introduced in the player's options around 1995, approx. 6 years into 2e. Here we are 6 years into 3e and we have such splendid supplements like PHBII and DMGII. It's basically 3.75 imho. 4e will take areas of both supplements and make them core/basic. 4e will become a mammoth revisonary process implementing the best ideas between 2000 to say 2007 without completely changing the core mechanic, only some streamlining. It will be the same house only newer furniture in the living room.