Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thramzorean 12-29-06, 12:04 AM	So I've got a large overdue selection of D&D books I'm now allowing myself to buy. I'm definitely getting: PHB II Eberron stuff: FoE, Dmkd, SoX Tome of Battle And what I'd appreciate some advice on is the relative values of the following: Heroes of Horror Complete Mage Tome of Magic Minatures Handbook Monster Manual iv From my own research it seems Heroes of Horror is good, just low value/$. The rest viable except MM4 which is a bit of a washout. Appreciate your views, thanks!
StoneStokes 12-29-06, 01:22 AM	I just got the Complete Mage, and I like it. I haven't used anything out of it yet (because I just got it), but reading through it, I like it a lot more than I did when I first glanced through it in the store. I also have MM IV, and really like it. I know that others have expressed disappointment with this one, but I think it's pretty good. I also really like MM III (I'm guessing you already have that one, though), and use more monsters from it than from MM IV. I would recommend against the Minis Handbook. I have a copy and I don't really like it as much as I thought I would. Everything in the Minis Handbook relating to D&D is 3.0. The feats and spells in there are okay, but most are reproduced elsewhere as well, in 3.5. You can get the complete Minis rules online here somewhere, in PDF, for free.
Seeker95 12-29-06, 07:58 AM	Just say no to MMIV and Miniatures Handbook. Complete Mage is good if you prefer arcane casters. Heroes of Horror is a good resource for a DM, but otherwise bleh. Tome of Magic is too much book for too little use.
Thramzorean 12-29-06, 08:41 AM	Just say no to MMIV and Miniatures Handbook. Complete Mage is good if you prefer arcane casters. Tome of Magic is too much book for too little use. This is the general impression I've received without have actually glanced at anything and was intending to get Complete Mage before Tome of Magic.
Thramzorean 12-29-06, 08:47 AM	I just got the Complete Mage, and I like it. I haven't used anything out of it yet (because I just got it), but reading through it, I like it a lot more than I did when I first glanced through it in the store. Hmmm... sort of like Magic of Incarnum? There's a book I got and after the first skim through I was almost ready to throw it out (I know people who returned it the next day but not an option for me). Since then have got into it properly and have completely revised my first impression and consider it excellent - different without being over the top and flexible for what it lacks in relative power. I would recommend against the Minis Handbook. I have a copy and I don't really like it as much as I thought I would. Everything in the Minis Handbook relating to D&D is 3.0. The feats and spells in there are okay, but most are reproduced elsewhere as well, in 3.5. You can get the complete Minis rules online here somewhere, in PDF, for free. Ahh... useful. I'd been impressed by the stuff on line from it - the Marshal etc and wondered about getting this to fill everything out. Thanks for the input both... :)
Board_Rider 12-29-06, 09:53 AM	Heroes of Horror - Great resource for a DM who wishes to have a mechanic to "enforce" a horror theme. Pretty good fluff but if you don't use taint or depravity in your campaign a lot of the "crunch" probably will not be used. Complete Mage - Good book. Great for variant arcane casters and grants the (in)famous reserve feats. I do not own it but a friend does and is worth its price I think. Tome of Magic - Visually this is a great book. Three new forms of "casting" which have good flavor which you may, or may not, like. My players don't particularly use anything from it but I like it. Minatures Handbook - Great for skirmish games although not necessary. I think the Marshall can be found on this site somewhere. The other two classes have been published again in a Complete... book. Monster Manual iv - Don't own it and haven't looked at it.
DIESCUMDIE 12-29-06, 11:58 AM	If you like incarnum you'll like tome of magic, especially the pact magic. Does anyone know where the dnd mini's rules are? Complete mage has a character tweek that to my mind totally rescues the duelist. Otherwise it's good if you really like casters.
Legendarius 12-29-06, 01:02 PM	Heroes of Horror - I enjoyed this book a lot and I would recommend it if you think you might be running a horror game. Complete Mage- I haven't had a chance to use this one yet but if you have Complete Arcane already the two of them (plus the Spell Compendium and PHB) make for the must have set to create a Sorcerer or Wizard in my opinion. Tome of Magic- I think the quality of this book is high and I enjoyed reading parts of it but have no experience yet with any of the three new alternate magic systems provided. If you are very happy with the base spell casting system I don't see this as being a must buy by any means. If you want to spice things up a bit, maybe have a villain or two with some odd powers the players aren't really sure about this might hit the spot. Arguably the psionics books could do the same thing though. Minatures Handbook - If you don't use minis forget it. If you don't play the miniatures game then I probably would skip it. A few nice monsters (the Aspects were introduced in this book I believe) and the extra base classes are pretty good though as mentioned some have been reprinted/updated in other 3.5 works since. Monster Manual IV - I love monster books and I thought this was well done. If you don't have Red Hand of Doom this one introduces the Spawn of Tiamat and provides more detail. Some have complained about the leveled versions of earlier monsters (like Drow and Ogres) as being kind of lazy on WotC's part but I think they're nice for when you need some plug-and-play bad guys. You didn't mention them, but if you enjoy using demons and devils in your game I'd definitely pick up Fiendish Codex I and II. L
WhiteRaven810 12-29-06, 01:03 PM	Minatures Handbook No, just don't. You'll thank me later believe me. Tome of Magic I have not play tested or even finished reading all the rules on any of the three new forms of magic, but I like the book. I know alot of people found it lack luster though, so maybe I'm alone on this one.
Cainin 12-29-06, 03:25 PM	Miniatures Handbook - Yes, I do own this one. It is actually 3.5 rules, contrary to what has been previously stated. While it did introduce 4 new base classes, only the Healer & Marshal have never been reprinted. (The others were Favored Soul & Warmage.) There are a handful of prestige classes in the book. None have ever been reprinted and many are decent (not to be confussed with "Oh, my God!" broken). The monsters haven't been reprinted to my knowledge (excluding Aspects of certain entities). There are actually many good spells in the book, but I've heard that most were re-printed in the Spell Compendium. Of the new feats section, some have already been reprinted elsewhere. Others still only exist in that book. Most of the non-reprinted ones are undesirable. Heroes of Horror - Yet another book I own, my recomendation of this book is very conditional. If you customarily run games and are looking for good rules & inspiration on running a horror game, then I would definitely recommend it as a solid buy. But from the player perspective, the substance of the book is severely lacking. No "pure player" person that's ever looked at my copy ever thought it was actually worth their time buying. Though much of the nuts & bolts rules stuff are interesting. The 2 new base classes were unusual options. Tome of Magic - Being a sucker for alternate magic systems, I again own this book. Overall, I was happy with the buy. The book introduces 3 different sources of "magic" to campaign use. Having eventually looked it all over, the 3 systems aren't amazingly powerful. I really do like the Binder and Shadowcaster, but their few neat tricks are overshadowed by a lack of punch. Truenaming is virtually impossible to PC use unless there is some form of open buying. Otherwise, it is unlikely never to run into an enemy with one of the coveted Truespeaking skill bump items.
Kadasbrass 12-29-06, 03:45 PM	Complete Mage be the best of the lot, had nice PrCs and Feats. Instead of new base classes expands the alternate ability list. The spell list I didn't really look at too much, but thats just because theres so many out there now that takes something special to grap my attention. MM4 really depends on the person. I would look at it alot before buying it. I got it for Christmas and didn't think it was as bad as what was complained about. But thats just me. Heroes of Horror has some good ideas for a DM. Gives ideas on how to make your campaigns more interesting from a horror prespective. Tome of Magic was a noble idea, but in the end two of the three magic systems introduced in the book missed the bar. The binder is the only system in the book to really make a splash. Truename and Shadowmagic looked good on paper but just don't cut it mechanically.
DBlizzard 12-29-06, 04:16 PM	Minatures Handbook - If you don't use minis forget it. If you don't play the miniatures game then I probably would skip it. A few nice monsters (the Aspects were introduced in this book I believe) and the extra base classes are pretty good though as mentioned some have been reprinted/updated in other 3.5 works since. IMO, the non-miniatures focused section of the Miniatures Handbook is great. Unfortunately, there are two major problems with it. First, it's such a small percentage of the book (about 1/3, IIRC). You are paying for a lot of stuff that isn't terribly useful to you. In fact, the miniatures skirmish rules are out-of-date Second, much has appeared elsewhere. 3 of the 4 classes are available elsewhere (Marshall online, Warmage in Complete Arcane, Favored Soul in Complete Divine). I believe all the spells are in the Spell Compendium. Many of the feats have appeared elsewhere. So that means the non-miniatures portion of the book is most useful for some feats and the monsters, assuming you have the other sources mentioned here. Still, if you can get a very good deal on it (maybe $5), I'd say get it. Especially consider it if you don't have the other sources mentioned here.
High Octane 12-29-06, 04:53 PM	Complete Mage > Complete Arcane IMHO.
Stormonu 12-29-06, 05:20 PM	Miniatures book should be avoided. Any of the decent stuff has been reprinted elsewhere and most of whats in there is trash, cheese or both. Actually, I'd advise skipping on the Secrets of Xen'drik. It's just a bunch of adventure locales that you could probably come up with better anyways. I was rather disappointed with that book, hoping it would detail more of the mysteries and backstage areas of the continents - not give info on a bunch of mini-adventures for ruin looting. MM4 sucks - 'nuff said. Tome of Magic is an interesting concept, but as I've been hearing the two cool-sounding magic classes Truenamer falls short of expectations and Shadowmancer? is too complex. Binder, with the rather wierd Visages falls flat RP-wise in my opinion. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned Tome of Battle - do you already own this book? If not, I'd highly suggest getting it over any of the other books you listed. Personally, Complete Arcane > Complete Mage. I think someone was smoking some halfling pipeweed when they came up with complete mage ;). The reserve feats smack too much of Warlockiness in my opinion (in that it takes away from the flavor of the Warlock).
Grand Theft Otto 12-29-06, 05:35 PM	Heroes of Horror Complete Mage Tome of Magic Minatures Handbook Monster Manual iv I have all 5 books. As a caveat to my advice, I havent paid over half price for a new RPG book in forever (and typically pay about 30%). So I can almost always get my money's worth from anything I buy. Heroes of Horror I found decent enough. Its good advice if you've never run a horror game before, but as I'd recently finished a 4 year ravenloft campaign (with a ton of Cthulhu experience before that), much of the advice was largely in the "duh" camp for me. I really liked the archivist base class, while the dread necromancer was just more of the same. The taint mechanics were revised from OA, and are decent if you dont have access to that book. I think the decision not to include madness effects was a mistake however. Overall, a decent resource that has more value for DM's who are new to the horror scene. Players will get less out of it, so I wouldnt buy it for the player crunch. Complete Mage is a general good PC resource. Its got new spells that have some different mechanics than before (they provide additional effects when interacting with other spells), the feats are somewhat innovative compared to more of the +2/+2 crap, and the PRC's are useful, but not obviously over/under powered (no half progression garbage). Were I an arcane player, I'd eagerly snap this up. Tome of Magic - the biggest letdown ever for a book (for me at least). Three new base classes, each with a different take on magic, each with a nasty flaw. The wrost offender being the truenamer, which is almost guaranteed to be broken, either with DC's that spiral out of control ensuring you get weaker as you level, or retardedly easy to pull off (with item familiar and other abilities). The class drops its flavor halfway through (where utterances had a reverse effect), and just in general annoys the hell out of me. The shadowcaster is just plain weak, but fortunately the designer posted a fix on ENworld. The binder had the most potential, but is another letdown. It has the pretense of flexibility, but really no more so than a cleric would, as the cleric can prep spells based on their expectations similar to the binder summoning his daily vestige. Its a gimpy incarnate basically. Miniatures Handbook - the most useless of the lot IMO. Some ok crunch can be gleaned from the spell/magic/monster item section, but nothing I saw as novel aside from aspects. A bunch of wasted space reprinting mini rules that any mini player will already have and any non-mini player wont use. 4 new classes, 2 of which were reprinted. The two that werent are for obvious reasons (namely that the marshall and healer suck hardcore). The marshall tried to provide something new, but the dragon shaman in PHB2 actually offers an aura class thats useful for more than dip. Monster Manual IV - I'm not a fan of spending a lot of time on classed monsters in a book that I traditionally associate with new creatures, but the new monsters were pretty good. It was worth my 12 bucks, but unless you're just starved for new critters, I dont think its worth amazon's price. Of the group, I'd recommend Complete Mage the highest. Other miscellaneous books I'd recommend offhand are Lords of Madness (the best 3.0 sourcebook I own), Five Nations since you seem into Eberron (it does a great job of fleshing out the countries), and Magic of Incarnum for actually offering a flexible base class (just ditch the dorky cartoon visuals).
thecosmicgoose 12-29-06, 05:51 PM	So I've got a large overdue selection of D&D books I'm now allowing myself to buy. I'm definitely getting: PHB II Eberron stuff: FoE, Dmkd, SoX Tome of Battle And what I'd appreciate some advice on is the relative values of the following: Heroes of Horror Complete Mage Tome of Magic Minatures Handbook Monster Manual iv From my own research it seems Heroes of Horror is good, just low value/$. The rest viable except MM4 which is a bit of a washout. Appreciate your views, thanks! Heroes of Horror is good if your a DM, and like running grim and grusome themed games (like i do ^_^). as a player, its not very useful, though it does have some tastey classes (like the dread necromancer) and feats. Tome of magic is neat. i like all of the magic systems presented in it, but i havent had the oppertunity to play one yet (damn school schedual). some people have crittisisms of it, but i personaly like it. Complete Mage is also a good buy. it offers a good overview of magical strategy, caster rolls, and such advice. some neat feats (like alacritouse cognition, a must have for any wizard). Prestige classes are a little thin though. minatures handbook, i found it to be a waste of money. its got some new core classes. but none of them are all that great. Monster Manual 4: of all the monster books, this ones the weakest. get it if you have extra money thats just BEGGING to be spent, and you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING else you'd rather get.
Grand Theft Otto 12-29-06, 06:37 PM	Tome of magic is neat. i like all of the magic systems presented in it, but i havent had the oppertunity to play one yet (damn school schedual). some people have crittisisms of it, but i personaly like it. The problems become very apparent with a little playtesting. The classes SEEM cool, until a few sessions down the line when you realize you're just a weak version of another class.
zvbxrpl 12-29-06, 06:45 PM	Complete Mage: Essentially this is Complete Arcane volume 2. As I don't have complete arcane, I haven't really playtested CM. New arcane spells are always good. Heroes of Horror: I like this book a lot. The taint mechanics are very good, and the Dread Necromancer is what necromancers always should have been. That being said, its uses are narrow, so I'd caution you. Also, it isn't a whole lotta book for thirty bucks. Miniatures Handbook: There's a reason every store that sells D&D manuals has one lonely looking copy of this book. Much of the stuff in it was reprinted in other manuals, and that which wasn't is sub-par either in quality or in game balance. Monster Manual IV: Unless you really, really love spawn of Tiamat, time saved on monstrous NPCs, and referring constantly to other books, pass this one up. Tome of Magic: You should probably choose this one. Truename magic is the weakest section, but its versatility with truespeak as a skill rather than a class feature adds an interesting wrinkle to gameplay. Shadow magic seriously needs the power level cranked up a notch, but for sheer coolness, I like it. Pact magic ROCKS! The RP possibilities involved with the influence mechanic are a lot of fun. The signs I like because freaky looking characters are cool, the Vestiges themselves are that same kind of freaky coolness, and gameplay-wise, binders have damn good staying power, as well as enough versatility to keep things interesting.
Empiro 12-29-06, 07:21 PM	My own 2 cents: Heroes of Horror An interesting book if you're going for that horror/Ravenloft theme. I agree with everyone here--it's good for a DM running his or her first horror themed camapaign. It is not necessary for players. It also presents the Taint system for running horror campaigns, though much of the rules for that can be found at d20srd.org Complete Mage A decent book in my opinion. The prestige classes presented here definitely are much more interesting than the ones in Complete Arcane. However, a number of them are obviously overpowered (Abjurant Champion and Master Specialist come to mind). Others are very good, and open to abuse (Ultimate Magus). Tome of Magic I haven't looked at this book much, but my impression is the same as Seeker's, namely that it's alot of stuff, much of which won't get any use. Minatures Handbook A poor book in my opinion. Much of the stuff in it are either significantly underpowered, or overpowered/abusable. All you have to do is look at how many of the spells were changed between it and the Spell Compendium. Monster Manual iv Avoid. I have to say that this book is really uninspired. A good part of the book is comprised of old races statted up with a few character levels. The book also has mini adventures/maps of encounters (with old monsters) as well, and I found them to be not very useful in a Monster Manual type book. Furthermore, several of the more interesting monsters -- like a good number of the Spawn of Tiamat, were already presented and sttated up in Red Hand of Doom.
Thramzorean 12-31-06, 11:54 PM	Thank ye all. Plenty to mull over there.:cool: I'll be getting Heroes of Horror and Complete Mage and then wait for the chance to see the other books somewhere before splashing out...
Nom 01-01-07, 12:02 AM	You almost never round up in D&D; almost every mechanic involving a fraction rounds down. This applies to all books. ;)
Magon 01-01-07, 01:27 AM	TOME OF MAGIC: i like this book. personal truneames needs more power, moestly as i am used to "a wizard of earthsea" else i like it (it was the oly thing i did not like, and it is minor)