Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 02-24-07, 01:50 AM	Looks like the WotC game designers are borrowing ideas from Diablo II yet again ... This time it's Set Items. See here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070223a). Post your reactions. Cheers, Jonny
Krusk 02-24-07, 02:06 AM	They -dnd- has had set items since 3.0 and probably befor hand. The regalia of evil, hand and eye and other thing of vecna. Its a good idea and they use it often enough. Sounds good. Curious what else dnd has borrowed from diablo 2? And if they did flat out steal something from diablo, such as the spell corpse explosion would that be a bad thing? it was great in one game, why not in another?
pukunui 02-24-07, 02:12 AM	I'm not really complaining ... Yeah, the Vecna things are a set, but they didn't really call it that. In the Magic Item Compendium preview, they're actually refering to "Set Items". They've borrowed a few terms (although they're not exactly the same in function) like Blessed Aim ... that's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I know there are others. I'm not saying it's a bad thing necessarily. Just somewhat unoriginal.
samusco 02-24-07, 02:13 AM	I don't mind too much if they are... because you can do whatever the hell you want if your a DM. I'm even working on a new mana system to replace the spell system. And I got over Diablo II like... 5 years ago, haven't played it sense.
pukunui 02-24-07, 02:13 AM	Yeah, I haven't played D2 in a couple of years either. I got fed up with it when it became basically one big treasure hunt.
Kadasbrass 02-24-07, 02:22 AM	I'm sure the idea of items being more powerful together as a group was not something original by the time it was introduced in Diablo 2. They may not have been refered to as set items exactly, but the idea and constep most likely existed before hand.
pukunui 02-24-07, 02:24 AM	I'm sure the idea of items being more powerful together as a group was not something original by the time it was introduced in Diablo 2. They may not have been refered to as set items exactly, but the idea and constep most likely existed before hand. Fair enough. However, the same could be said about rock 'n' roll and the Beatles. The Beatles didn't invent it, but they sold it to the world, and now most people consider everything since to be derivative of the Beatles ... so while Diablo II may not have invented Set Items and the like, it made those items well-known enough that people (like me) now associate them with that game rather than something else ...
Kadasbrass 02-24-07, 02:38 AM	Fair enough. However, the same could be said about rock 'n' roll and the Beatles. The Beatles didn't invent it, but they sold it to the world, and now most people consider everything since to be derivative of the Beatles ... so while Diablo II may not have invented Set Items and the like, it made those items well-known enough that people (like me) now associate them with that game rather than something else ... Music has existed for many thousands of years before recorded history. Each generation produces a new variant on the work of the thousand generations before it. Complaining about WotC pulling set items from diablo would be the same as complaining about all forms of fantasy games and novels using elves due to Lord of the Rings.
pukunui 02-24-07, 04:27 AM	I'm not complaining! Not very seriously anyway ... ;) I just thought maybe I could spark a discussion. I guess not.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 04:48 AM	I'm not complaining! Not very seriously anyway ... ;) I just thought maybe I could spark a discussion. I guess not. It is sparking a disccussion. Just that it wasn't stolen from Diablo2 that it was already there... Also the Beetle aren't veiwed as the inventors of R n' R. That is Elvis. and that is just as wrong :)
pukunui 02-24-07, 04:53 AM	It is sparking a disccussion. Just that it wasn't stolen from Diablo2 that it was already there...I meant a discussion other than everyone telling me I'm wrong for some reason ... Also the Beetle aren't veiwed as the inventors of R n' R. That is Elvis. and that is just as wrong :)I never said they did invent it. I said they "sold it to the world" and so now people tend to compare everything made since to them rather than the people who really did invent it ... that's all I was really getting at. And so my point is that while Set Items may have existed prior to Diablo II, most people associate them with that game, so it would appear, at first glance at least, that WotC is copying Blizzard, but perhaps they are not ... It just seems like they are because not only are they calling them Sets, but they're also giving them fairly Diablo-esque names and basing them off the idea that each Set was once the gear of some legendary warrior. Also, most sets are geared towards a specific class, although some can be used by several different classes. It just seems too similar to be coincidence to me, but obviously others disagree. Also, I never said Set Items weren't a cool idea ... although I do think their usefulness in Diablo was fairly limited and they did help to turn the game into more of a "collect the whole set" style treasure hunt than it might have otherwise been ... not that I'm suggesting putting Set Items into d&d will be a bad thing.
Vaelan 02-24-07, 07:26 AM	Looks like the WotC game designers are borrowing ideas from Diablo II yet again ... This time it's Set Items. The Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Girdle of Giant Strength, and Hammer of Thunderbolts would like to have a word with you.
Millennium 02-24-07, 07:53 AM	They seem to have only borrowed the name this time; in older editions this sort of thing was called resonance. Either way, as long as they don't borrow the spellcasting system I'm not worried.
Burgundy Lotus 02-24-07, 07:58 AM	Looks like the WotC game designers are borrowing ideas from Diablo II yet again ... This time it's Set Items. See here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070223a). Post your reactions. Cheers, Jonny It's nothing new, they had them in previous editions, they'll have them in future editions. Also you aren't the first to point this out
IAmSancho 02-24-07, 03:44 PM	Personally, I like the idea of set items. I note that in this case, the items (a mask, boots, and a weapon) are those not typically used by a monk, so they doesn't compete with, say, Gloves of Dexterity or Bracers of Armor for item space. Probably a good call to make sure that these item sets see use in games.
Kursk 02-24-07, 04:02 PM	Looks like the WotC game designers are borrowing ideas from Diablo II yet again ... This time it's Set Items. See here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070223a). Set Items have been around D&d for about 30 years. Maybe Diablo copied from D&D?
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 04:59 PM	I meant a discussion other than everyone telling me I'm wrong for some reason ... I never said they did invent it. I said they "sold it to the world" and so now people tend to compare everything made since to them rather than the people who really did invent it ... that's all I was really getting at. And so my point is that while Set Items may have existed prior to Diablo II, most people associate them with that game, so it would appear, at first glance at least, that WotC is copying Blizzard, but perhaps they are not ... It just seems like they are because not only are they calling them Sets, but they're also giving them fairly Diablo-esque names and basing them off the idea that each Set was once the gear of some legendary warrior. Also, most sets are geared towards a specific class, although some can be used by several different classes. It just seems too similar to be coincidence to me, but obviously others disagree. Also, I never said Set Items weren't a cool idea ... although I do think their usefulness in Diablo was fairly limited and they did help to turn the game into more of a "collect the whole set" style treasure hunt than it might have otherwise been ... not that I'm suggesting putting Set Items into d&d will be a bad thing. Well I am sorry I remember (vaguely) set items( call that too I think) back in 2nd edition... D&D is like the Simpsons it been around for so long it as thought of everything. But then again the people who write that book might not have my knowledge of the game's history and thought to himsel(or herself)' Wow Diablo's Set Item would be really cool in D&D...'
boozerker 02-24-07, 05:30 PM	Not too surprising, as Blizzard and WotC have worked together before. Diablo role-playing game (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786917601/) Warcraft d20 (http://www.amazon.com/Warcraft-Roleplaying-Game-Arthaus/dp/1588460711) A new d20 fantasy setting based on the Diablo game's world of Sanctuary would be cool.
lucifer777 02-25-07, 04:27 PM	Yep, I own the Diablo2: To Hell and Back book, and while it's most assuredly not for standard D&D use, if you use it with just a Diablo2 setting, it's great. In fact, I think it even says somewhere NOT to use it with standard D&D characters, because it's scaled for a much more powerful style of play. So that Amazon or Necromancer you wanna play will overshadow the regular D&D Rogue or Wizard.
Dm_Farble 02-25-07, 04:47 PM	Diablo was designed for the players to go solo. any regular dnd character would get slaughtered in diablo. Massive swarms of enemies... Isnt there a tabletop diablo game? p.s. the expansion was way better. druid power!
Boraxe 02-26-07, 11:12 AM	And Diablo II - and every other modern fantasy gerne game for that matter - owes it's very existence to D&D. What is your point?
Doom_Linnorm 02-26-07, 11:28 AM	Agreed, its usualy the computer games that "steal" stuff off DnD not the other way around. (Note: I put steal in " "s) In fact the very Diablo classes are based mostly off the DnD ones... Barbarian, Sorceress, Paladin, Druid. Also I'd say the Regelia's are basicly a proper name, the reference of "Set Items" is basicly so that some people don't have to grab a dictionary. Which is what blizzard did as a way of making it easier to understand the concept. (Note: I am a blizzard-fan btw, love their games.... BIG warcraft fan, I even blatantly steal Warcraft Orcs, Ogres and Goblins for my setting and my Trolls are loosely based on theirs.)
Escef 02-26-07, 11:31 AM	The Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Girdle of Giant Strength, and Hammer of Thunderbolts would like to have a word with you. As would the Hand and Eye of Vecna, as well as the Rod of Seven Parts. These date back to 1e (perhaps farther).
Retinal Haze 02-26-07, 12:56 PM	You should have a look at some of the AD&D magic items. there were a whole lot of set items back in the day. Just because they streamlined the game somewhat and introducing an old idea doesnt mean they are stealing from D2. In fact dialbo2 is almost entirely centered around dnd, i think we can all agree with that.
ArcTan 02-26-07, 01:39 PM	It is sparking a disccussion. Just that it wasn't stolen from Diablo2 that it was already there... Also the Beetle aren't veiwed as the inventors of R n' R. That is Elvis. and that is just as wrong :) Even saying that the Beatles "sold" rock and roll to the world is wrong. They *re*invented rock, and played something quite different from standard '60s rock, which was what got audiences excited -- because they were playing to people who were already very, very used to rock as an established genre and who wanted to see a new twist on it. Saying they had anything to do with "inventing" rock and roll is ludicrous. They were decades late for that. It's like saying that Diablo "invented" the idea of a dungeon crawl RPG. It's exactly the opposite -- everyone wanted to play Diablo and instantly knew how it worked because the idea of a heroic character in a fantasy world beating up demons in an underground maze was not new, but terribly familiar. Diablo just found a way to make it seem fresh. Seriously, the Beatles "inventing" rock and roll. Sheesh. I can at least understand saying Elvis invented rock and roll -- he didn't, but most white audiences discovered its existence through him -- but sheesh. That's worse than people who think Wizards of the Coast invented D&D.
Elessara 02-26-07, 04:19 PM	Darn. And here I was hoping that you were going to say WotC made a module full of cows that walked upright and tried to kill people with really freaking big axes while saying, "Moo. MOO! Moo Moo Moo." Oh well, maybe some day. Oh and on topic, while they may not have been called "Set Items" per se, the concept has existed in D&D for quite awhile. Longer than D2 at any rate. Ele~
Escef 02-27-07, 01:40 AM	Darn. And here I was hoping that you were going to say WotC made a module full of cows that walked upright and tried to kill people with really freaking big axes while saying, "Moo. MOO! Moo Moo Moo." Oh well, maybe some day. I'll get to work on a proposal for a minotaur based module this weekend.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-27-07, 02:00 AM	Darn. And here I was hoping that you were going to say WotC made a module full of cows that walked upright and tried to kill people with really freaking big axes while saying, "Moo. MOO! Moo Moo Moo." Oh well, maybe some day. They did. I think it's still somewhere on the main site.
Zinegata 02-27-07, 02:35 AM	Looks like the WotC game designers are borrowing ideas from Diablo II yet again ... This time it's Set Items. See here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070223a). Post your reactions. Cheers, Jonny Good. Set items from Diablo II were a good idea.
Elessara 02-27-07, 09:15 AM	They did. I think it's still somewhere on the main site. They did? Sweet! I'll have to go find it. But it'll only work if they're actual cows and they have big axes and they say, "Moo" like a person as opposed to the mooing an actual cow would do. Ele~
Draco Strang 02-27-07, 09:48 AM	Also the Beetle aren't veiwed as the inventors of R n' R. That is Elvis. and that is just as wrong :) True that. Mainstream culture stole rock n' roll from African-Americans, just like they stole blues, just like they stole ragtime, just like they stole jazz, just like they stole gospel.......
HomebrewedMonster 02-27-07, 02:39 PM	Blizzard did not create item sets. Dwarven thrower + belt of giant strength + gauntlets of ogre power = Amazing in the old additions. There have always been certain magic items that become more powerful when they are accompanied by others of like abilities. To say that Blizzard created them in 1996 would be untrue.
HomebrewedMonster 02-27-07, 02:48 PM	Yeah, the Vecna things are a set, but they didn't really call it that. In the Magic Item Compendium preview, they're actually refering to "Set Items". Yes and I can call my truck a blazer, but I when I talk about it I call it my truck. An apple can be cut and put in a pie, but the apple is still an apple. DnD has changed over the years and WoTC has seen that to make things easier is better for the current market. This has led them to make item "sets" instead of having a single item that becomes more powerful when others are worn with it. You rant on calling out Wizards of the Coast on "stealing" ideas from another game. What is Dungeons and Dragons? A fantasy game that has mixed various mythologies, pantheons, and time periods together. Dungeons and Dragons is a game based on taking interesting things from various mediums of fantasy to make an enjoyable game. With the large popularity of online gaming "set" items are common in any of these (many of which used set items before 1996 when Diablo II was released). Now you are angry that a major publishing company is trying to use a popular idea and put it in their game? If you do not like something the greatness of Dungeons and Dragons is truly visible, you don't have to use it.
Johnny_Angel 02-27-07, 03:02 PM	Not to derail the thread, but I don't feel The Beetles are responsible for spreading rock and roll. As for the items, there have been plenty of games other than Diablo which had sets of items, and a lot of those games were very popular. Some of the older Final Fantasy games had such items, Onimusha had such items, and many other games have as well. I don't feel that Diablo is the reason for the idea being "sold." Now, was WOTC inspired by Diablo? That's something I can't say being that I don't know what games the staff of WOTC play. One more thing: Isn't Diablo based on D&D? If so, wouldn't D&D be "stealing" from D&D?
Johnny_Angel 02-27-07, 03:07 PM	True that. Mainstream culture stole rock n' roll from African-Americans, just like they stole blues, just like they stole ragtime, just like they stole jazz, just like they stole gospel....... While I do think there was some influence, I disagree based upon the presence of musicians/groups such as Ozzy Osbourne, Sid Vicious, the majority of the underground music movement of the 60s, 70s; 80s, and a few other groups who had a sound which was very unique when compared to the blues and and jazz inspired rock and roll. That's a topic for a different thread though.
Airos 02-28-07, 02:13 AM	They did? Sweet! I'll have to go find it. But it'll only work if they're actual cows and they have big axes and they say, "Moo" like a person as opposed to the mooing an actual cow would do. Ele~ You mean this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=d2/d220010302x)?
Elessara 02-28-07, 08:30 AM	You mean this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=d2/d220010302x)? That's awesome lol! Thanks! Ele~
Bruunwald 02-28-07, 01:16 PM	The first thing that jumped into my mind, as with many others here, was Vecna. This sort of thing is not new. I, myself, had a suit of armor, a helm, and a sword in our game, way back in the early nineties, which functioned exponentially more powerfully when brought together. Even then, I knew it was not a new concept. Though D&D did have its little tryst with Diablo a few years back, with that whole Diablo d20 sourcebook, or whatever it was, and though I did find it annoying enough to want to ignore it, and even though D&D has adopted a few annoying habits here and there from the video game milieu, there's no doubting that Diablo II's existence (and the existence of virtually every other character-advancement video game out there) is owed directly to table top RPGs, and in this case, to D&D specifically. It's sort of like faulting your mother for borrowing your recipe for chocolate chip cookies. Okay, yeah, so she thought your idea deserved investigation. But then again, she did give birth to you, and everything.
StarFyre 02-28-07, 01:23 PM	Yes, they are probably using the term from D2..however, 'set' items have existed since 2nd edition (and maybe earlier). There are quite a few items and artifacts that are 'set' items back then, as many here have pointed out. Sanjay
Stormonu 03-02-07, 12:03 AM	Teeth of Dalver-Nar, Hand & Eye of Vecna (and the sword of Kas), Orbs of Dragonkind, Regalia of Might, Rod of Seven Parts, Hammer of Thunderbolts combo, Wave Whelm & Blackrazor ( :D ). Nothing new, they just decided to label it "sets" for the Diablo generation.
green_yawgmoth 03-02-07, 12:26 AM	Wow/D2 takes from D&D. D&D takes from WoW/D2. A = B. B = A. Most people go with whatever they played first as the game being "stolen" from. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
pukunui 03-09-07, 06:06 PM	Just thought I'd mention that in the latest Magic Item Compendium Design & Development article, they have as much as admitted borrowing from Diablo II: So we pulled out our giant stacks of sourcebooks, from Tome & Blood to Tome of Magic, and started compiling a list of every magic item we’d ever published. We pored over dozens of issues of Dragon Magazine and searched through dusty old archives of online columns. We even paged through the Diablo-themed D&D supplements—I’m telling you, we were thorough!
Escef 03-10-07, 03:58 AM	Just thought I'd mention that in the latest Magic Item Compendium Design & Development article, they have as much as admitted borrowing from Diablo II: I would hardly call that a borrow. Nor are they "admitting" anything damning. As has been stated (and proven) numerous times already, the concept of sets of items goes back much farther than Diablo; farther than D&D does, too. Heck, for extra ludicrousness why don't we say they stole it from Disney's Gargoyles? (The Eye of Odin, the Pheonix Gate, and the Arcanorum Grimoire.)
_SIN_ 03-10-07, 04:04 AM	Don't forget the Keymaster, Gatekeeper & Mr.Staypuffed too....
Azar_of_Faerun 04-08-07, 07:56 PM	He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until I am bored to death.
THECHILLFACTOR 04-08-07, 10:38 PM	WotC makes kiddy products thus they will always cater to what the wee tykes, and video game fans, want as opposed to what roleplayers want.
THECHILLFACTOR 04-08-07, 10:39 PM	He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until I am bored to death. Err right.
Azar_of_Faerun 04-08-07, 10:44 PM	Something the matter? I was bumping a topic I felt was interesting
THECHILLFACTOR 04-08-07, 10:52 PM	Something the matter? I was bumping a topic I felt was interesting Actually no. I just find it funny. because you said the same thing on another thread and noone really knows what you are talking about.
moscatabaco76 04-09-07, 01:14 AM	Looks like the WotC game designers are borrowing ideas from Diablo II yet again ... This time it's Set Items 1) I suppose you mean that they are stolen from Diablo 2 in the same way as the different energy resistances are, for mentioning something. Well, this is clearly the case. Yeah, the Regalia of Evil and the Set of Vecna were around before Diablo II, by a) they weren't called "sets" b) they weren't widely available; in fact they were considered not only powerful artifacts but also incredibly evil, so they weren't meant for PCs. 2) D&D is NOT original. Each and every monster is at the very least indirecly borrowed from some classical work of literature. Read the Chronicles of Narnia, The Divine Comedy, Arthurian Legends, the Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit (Not to mention the works of Jack Vance) and you'll have the source of 90% of the entire core universe (heck, they're protective with monsters like the beholder because it one of their precious few original ideas), so stealing from a video game shouldn't be a big deal 3) On the other hand... in Diablo II you gain levels by getting experience killing monsters, and of all classes available since Diablo I the Amazon is the only on non-TSR original.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-09-07, 07:49 AM	barg
celtredleg 04-09-07, 11:16 AM	Sets where named sets back in the early 80s by at least 2 other games. As far as Amazon being original, well, it was a class in the DnD setting Wiilderlands of high fantasy, which as it it happens was the first published DnD setting. Blackmore is often thought of that way, but it was a part of the wilderlands.