Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DemonDragonJ 08-08-05, 04:25 PM	I have been a fan of D&D for a number of years now, and I have often been told that it is: 1. A kid's game and a waste of time for a college student like myself. 2. Anti-Christian and/or Satanic. I know that neither of these assumptions are true, but I need a convincing argument to use if I should ever become involved in a discussion about the moral and ethical aspects of D&D. I know that many threads similar to this one have been posted here, but I need to prove that D&D is not childish or Satanic, and would like your assistance in doing so. (I only hope that posting such a thread as this is not against the WotC message boards' code of conduct.)
cvazi 08-08-05, 04:32 PM	I can't really help with the childish ones-except to point out the fairly large selection of 400+page novels published under the DnD label. As for the sataic stuff, someone posted this (http://3rdedition.org/articles/viewer.asp?ID=67) article in another thread. It is very informative on how that particular urban legend formed.
doctor_x 08-08-05, 04:53 PM	D&D can be childish if you play with munchkins, but my group is very mature about it. I don't know about Satanic. It seems clear to me that anyone who would label it so hasn't played it. Now, certain supplements are a different story. For example, though Wizards had nothing to do with it, there is a Book of Erotic Fantasy. And, of course, with names of devils taken right out of the Bible, the Book of Vile Darkness. Of course, they were meant as villains. D&D, to me, has always meant heroism and adventure. If Indiana Jones is Satanic, then by contrast, so must be other exciting adventure stories, such as, for example, Jonah and the Whale or David and Goliath. Sure, there are stats for demons and devils, right next to the stats for anything else that's supposed to stand in the way of the heroes. All Gary Gygax was doing in his basement was playing games like Warhammer and of course, D&D. I sincerely doubt he was also sacrificing virgins to Mephistopheles in the hopes of being blessed with a profane gift. There is no more Satanism in D&D that there is in Monopoly; and although I know first hand how difficult it can be to argue with Christians, if they've never played it, they have no room to talk.
SonsOfKyuss 08-08-05, 05:08 PM	There is no more Satanism in D&D that there is in Monopoly; Have you played Monopoly recently? I swear I've seen more deals with the devil while playing that game than I ever have during a session of D&D. But seriously, it's not even worth your time trying to convince people of D&D's merits. People who want to debate it with you will usually have either already made up their mind about the issue or are just looking to get a rise out of you.
BattleDragon5 08-08-05, 05:25 PM	Here's a web page attempting to answer those very questions, and contains several rebuttals. Very informative, check it out. http://www.theescapist.com/faq_myths.htm
Edymnion 08-08-05, 05:56 PM	Yes, D&D is Satanic. And my neighbors are communist spies. And I'd be happy to let Michael Jackson babysit my kids. And my tinfoil hat keeps the aliens from controlling my thoughts. ... :rolleyes:
pres_man 08-08-05, 06:07 PM	The level of maturity in the game is based totally on the players. It can be very childish, or innocent, or immature. It can also be very adult, mature, and disturbing. The game, especially in its latest version, but in the others as well, allowed great flexibility in the types of games and characters that can be run. So it is really up to the players for the level. As for Anti-Christian and/or Satanic. Well it certainly can be that, again if that is what the players choose to do. But really the question is, "Is fantasy in any form anti-christian and/or satanic." And the clear answer (for most christians and non-christians) is obviously no. You can look at the writings of Tolkien and C.S. Lewis to see that. I once heard on a christian radio program a discussion as to what types of books are appropriate for christians to read. One of the people on the show said that fantasy and dark fiction are ok, as long as it is shown that in the end good wins out. Which of course is what Tolkien and C.S. Lewis fill the books with. So if you have games set in that way, really most christians wouldn't have a problem with it (some will always have a problem, so try to satisfy the average person).
allenchan 08-08-05, 07:34 PM	Simply ignore and laugh at those who say its sadistic. they're bible-thumping idiots that do us christians shame. As for it being a child's game...? To understand the fully intricate workings of the system is quite a task, and it is a detailed, enriching combat system of strategic, logical reasonings. And as for the roleplay side of it, it creates a chance for like-minded indivuals to socialize and relax. it is no more of an escapism then tv, and has many more upsides to it.
weasel fierce 08-08-05, 08:11 PM	Ask them to point to a single, proven case where someone did something horrific, due to D&D/Marilyn Manson/GTA/scapegoat of the day, and where tremendous social pressures, neglective parents or various forms of abuse were not involved. People dont want to face up to the fact that they screwed up, and betrayed their kids. So they find other things to blame it on. Luckily, most people are sane enough, and most people of religious beliefs are sensible and nice people. Its a small, vocal minority that is driving the ship though, particularly if you are in the US.
q'afuu 08-08-05, 08:31 PM	... but I need to prove that D&D is not childish or Satanic... You can't. You can't prove the opposite either, but I don't think that's your problem anyway. If I want to play a childish game of D&D, that's easy. Heck, I see it done every other week or so, when I see my brother's group playing. They're immature and often downright petty, but they end up having a riot of a game anyway. I couldn't stand playing with them for more than 5 minutes, but that doesn't mean such games don't exist or can't thrive. If I want to sit in my basement doing daft things with chicken blood, black candles and a plastic skull in hopes of getting a demon to do my bidding (possibly something involving virgins, world domination and untold riches, in that order) and I want to get my inspiration from the Book of Vile Darkness, there's nothing stopping me either. I personally realize that doing so in secret is more important to avoid public embarrasment than to keep my "Dark Arts" hidden from the righteous, but I know there are others lacking the necessary mental stability and plain common sense to do the same. It's pitiful, but it happens. Seriously though, what kind of discussion of the moral and ethical aspects of D&D do you imagine ever getting involved in? I can't for the live of me see any kind of serious, open-minded discussion about D&D where you'd be asked to defend its moral stance. Any other kind of discussion is pointless anyway, so you're better off just not wasting any time on it.
DemonDragonJ 08-08-05, 08:41 PM	Seriously though, what kind of discussion of the moral and ethical aspects of D&D do you imagine ever getting involved in? I can't for the live of me see any kind of serious, open-minded discussion about D&D where you'd be asked to defend its moral stance. Any other kind of discussion is pointless anyway, so you're better off just not wasting any time on it. You are most likely correct, q'afuu. I doubt that I will ever need to have a convincing argument in favor of D&D, but it would be nice to have it and not need it, rather than needing it, and not having it.
The Vagrant 08-08-05, 08:51 PM	I know that many threads similar to this one have been posted here, Yes, you're right. There have been many. but I need to prove that D&D is not childish or Satanic, and would like your assistance in doing so And that's exactly what all the other "many threads sililar to this one" have done, repeatedly. Search for them. Use them. My advice, though, is to admit that "Yes, D&D does have a bad reputation. But it's only a reputation and not an accurate portrayl of what D&D teaches. If you believe the reputation it falsely was given, then you're listening to gossip. And if you listen to, and believe gossip, then I don't see why I should respect you enough to even countinue talking to you."
Azual 08-08-05, 09:27 PM	Here's a web page attempting to answer those very questions, and contains several rebuttals. Very informative, check it out. http://www.theescapist.com/faq_myths.htm dude... WHERE DID YOU GET THAT AVATAR? :drool: :love: :ayyyy!:
Swarms 08-08-05, 10:14 PM	LOL! Myth 2 on http://www.theescapist.com/faq_myths.htm:"The Dungeon Master's Guide Contains A Procedure For Selling Your Soul To The Devil" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
yossarius 08-08-05, 10:20 PM	Argument against D&D being satanic: At its most basic, D&D is merely a theoetical structure used to play make-believe. That structure exists for a good reason. When you played make-believe as a kid, and two people disagreed as to what happened in the story, it was handled one of two ways: either the more popular of the two demanded his/her way, and everyone else backed him/her up, or else the stronger of the two beat up the weaker. Isn't using dice to resolve conflict rather more civilized? On the other hand, magic is used within these stories. And magic is evil, isn't it? The bible says it is. (That's what I'm told, anyway. I'm not sure that is actually true, but let's assume that it is.) But let's keep this in mind: When the Bible was written, people actually believed that magic was real. We know better now. Magic is a literary tool. When used correctly, it's inspiring and dramatic. No one playing this game believes it's real. And those of us whom are christians don't believe for a second that anything we pretend to do within the confinds of a game takes away one iota from our love of God. Argument against D&D being childish: It is childish. Face it, it is. Likewise, so is every other game that exists. Games are played for enjoyment, and obviously enjoyment is meant entirely for children. Adults have outgrown joy; we should be content to slave away at jobs we hate for less money than we deserve. It is morally reprehensible for an adult to honestly enjoy anything. That time would be much better spent doing something practical. If you died a little inside when you graduated high school, that's noble and righteous. If this person tells you that that he reads the Bible for enjoyment and it's not childish, it's enriching, he's lying, it is childish. It's wasteful. He's not getting anything useful from reading the Bible again. He already knows the difference between right & wrong. He doesn't need daily christian talking points for any reason other than to harrangue other people with his self-righteousness, and that is very childish. It's self-ego-stroking. Ultimately, it's the childish things we do as adults that keep us young, isn't it?
Rohano 08-08-05, 11:16 PM	I'm a scholar of theology. I'm also an atheist. I spent a huge chunk of my life wandering through Christian sects. I spent another huge chunk of my life as a practicing Wiccan. And for a small portion of my life, I was a practicing Cabalist. In all my religious experience, I can say, Yes, I have performed demon-summoning rituals before. But that wasn't a Wiccan nor a Satanist ritual that I was performing. I'm really quite tolerant to any sort of belief that anyone might have... but once you start getting in my face about it, you can expect some injuries. Christians, Mormons, etc. who bother me about being Atheist and try to convert me, I do sometimes get violent and I do make a big public deal about it if they continue to bother me. Anyone who calls me a Satanist is immediately confronted. Of course, I'm six and a half feet tall and I have a hundred pounds over your average paranoid mislead Convert-Everyone-Who-Isn't-In-My-Congregation Christian, so I can afford to get violent when they bother me. If they don't listen to my reasoning, why should I listen to theirs? I've heard it all... and there's nothing they can say that interests me any more. I have several D&D and MTG playing friends who are Satanists, but gaming has no relation to that. Sure, you can make deals with the son of Satan or sacrifice a great paladin of a benevolent god to gain power, but Wizards discourages that. Yes, Wizards has been held under the oppressive chokehold of the Paranoid Mislead Convert-Everyone-Who-Isn't-In-My-Church Christians. I'm a professional author, and I was looking into writing adventures for Wizards, and on their guidelines page... Insofar as WotC products, marketing, promotions, and services portray the conflict between "good" and "evil", such portrayals should encourage the ultimate triumph of good over evil. Though dramatic purposes may require that evil prevail over good for a time, the ultimate victory of good over evil is a desirable goal. Game products should assume that player characters or heroes are good and should never support evil as a preferred lifestyle. I know Wizards could make loads of money publishing more information for evil games, but there's many reasons that Wizards never bought into White Wolf. Included, is the reason that Wizards doesn't want any part of the anti-Gothic RPG residual movement still going on. Goths are becoming more embraced by the church (most goths are actually church-going law-abiding christians who enjoy a little exotic body decoration, not actually into the Lovecraft-inspired core gothicism that originated the movement), but there is still a huge dislike of Goths among all religions. I, myself, am not a goth. I have many goth friends, however. When you look an Anti-D&D attacker in the eye, ask him why he thinks D&D has made you a Satanist. After he's completely explained himself, just counterpoint everything. "D&D teaches you Satanic rituals!" False. D&D might list off the names of rituals to imaginary devils and demons in the Book of Vile Darkness (note that in the first pages of that book is a huge disclaimer that it's all in good fun and Wizards isn't actually evil and stuff), but it doesn't tell us how to worship Satan. "D&D tells you to be Satanist!" False. If it did, I wouldn't be playing it. "D&D makes you stray from the good lord!" Maybe I should go to church with some D&D books in hand and see if I get smited, or if a world-ending flood suddenly arrives and the books are lost to the annals of time. No, it is you fanatic lunatics that have driven me away from the good lord. After all, you're always bothering me and trying to exorcise me and always trying to get me arrested! Please, sir, get that bible out of my face and go convert a polynesian instead, for the civilized neighbors on your street rather dislike your arrogant criticism and utter assumption that the law will back your claims that anything you dislike is against all Christianity and thus against all civilization. "D&D makes you homosexual!" If that were true, I'd be hitting on you, good sir. Oh, sorry, I left my pink sweater and skirt at home... sorry, I can't galavant gaily for you right now. "It makes you Wiccan!" The sober Christian-attacked faith of Wicca has no connections to Dungeons and Dragons, and it never really has. Wicca also has no connections to Satanism, so you can't assume that a Wiccan worships Satan. The two faiths are completely different and both deny any involvement with the other. "How do you know so much about Satanism and demons and Wicca, then, fiend?!" Because I've had a lot of practice dealing with retards like you who bother me with utter baseless nonsense, and because I do research into things like that to make sure that Dungeons and Dragons isn't actually giving me subliminal messages to kill innocent Christians and deny the tyranny of their fanatics. Oh, wait, I'm having a vision from Satan -- yes, he's telling me to kill you before I tell you too much. "I'll not have you in the presence of my family, worshipper of darkness!" Oh, sorry... Apparently when you come to me and bother me, that counts as me coming to you and bothering you, then? Well, I apologize fully and I'll just go commit suicide since my existence bothers you so much. Oh, watch your shadows -- Satan might be out to get your soul and feed your children to his minions. You do know that the lord of darkness has powers over shadow, don't you? Oh, well... Forget I said it! I founded the D&D club at my school. Unfortunately, it's not official because the Texas school system and its districts are dominated by fanatic and mislead Christians who hate anything and anyone who isn't a perfect Christian or a black person, or oriental, or a mexican. I've got a teacher or two that back me, but they refuse to do the paperwork to make the club official. In my various discussions with them, I could tell that a fear of losing their careers also backs their reasoning behind that. This year, I'm planning on making flyers or getting posters made so I can attract new members. I'm also going to talk to the school security to see if I can get an officer posted near the room where we meet to discourage trouble-making morons. And, amidst all my plans, is a plan that sort of makes me a martyr... I plan on going in front of the principal and talking to her about making the D&D club officialized. I'll answer all of her questions with all the facts that I have (I will not betray any personal information that my players don't want the principal to know, however), and I can see several outcomes... one of which is that I'll get sent to a hearing and expelled, and other outcome is that she doesn't mind and totally helps me out, but I have horrible luck. I deal with people who try to convert me and people who try to get in my face to criticise me in order to boost their own feeble bible-reliant egos on a regular basis, and I've played D&D and all kinds of RPGs and practiced various religions since I was old enough to talk. I actually started playing RPGs and the like when I was around 4, perhaps a bit younger... I might be really nasty and sarcastic to "attacking" religious fanatics, but I'm actually a tolerant and friendly guy. I've got a lot of friends from all religions, including loyal Judists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Baptists, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Catholics, and all kinds of "acceptable" religions. "If I can't play D&D, practice religions that many people deem "improper" or "malevolent", then you can't attempt to convert me and invade my privacy and harrass me."
pres_man 08-09-05, 01:10 AM	Rohano: Wow. I was tempted to say somethings, but the fact that you are still in the public school system tells me that you are still fairly young. I'm hoping that most of the anger in your post is out of typical youthfulness. Though I would say, anyone that uses violence on others is pretty sad in my opinion. And the fact that you are a big fellow only makes it worse. As spidey was told, "With great powers come great responsibilities." As larger person, you should be more careful not to harm those around. Seriously, consider working on managing to get your anger under control. You lose all credibility when you resort to violence.
SnowbearK 08-09-05, 02:18 AM	All Gary Gygax was doing in his basement was playing games like Warhammer and of course, D&D. I sincerely doubt he was also sacrificing virgins to Mephistopheles in the hopes of being blessed with a profane gift. And I sincerely doubt Gary ever had a virgin in his basement. Female virgin I mean, of course. ;) Seriously though, these kinds of narrow-minded jackasses aren't worth your time. Tell them to join in for a game or shut the fudge up.
Kojiro James 08-09-05, 02:52 AM	Have you played Monopoly recently? I swear I've seen more deals with the devil while playing that game than I ever have during a session of D&D. HAHAHAHAHA! That's so true. HAHAHAHAHA! :thumbsup:
The White Sorcerer 08-09-05, 03:07 AM	Simply ignore and laugh at those who say its sadistic. Why? Every DM worth his salt needs a healthy dose of sadism. :schemes:
Angered Roach 08-09-05, 03:16 AM	I might be really nasty and sarcastic to "attacking" religious fanatics, but I'm actually a tolerant and friendly guy. I've got a lot of friends from all religions, including loyal Judists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Baptists, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Catholics, and all kinds of "acceptable" religions. Minour nitpick...Eastern Orthodox aren't Catholic in the main-stream sense of the word, with the pope and all. :) Being a christian myself, these types **** me off to no end. Luckily, I haven't deal with it too much, not living in a particularly fundamentalist part of the world. My Lutheran sister, however, did, at first, think it was a satanist game, but she grew up in the '80s...she didn't think much of it either, what with my involvement in varying religons before rediscovering my faith, albeit in Greco-Slavic form. I can usually tell, with these types, if they're just saying stuff to **** me off, and have no interest in debating it, or if they really are out to save my soul or some such. The latter form, I talk with. The former...I wiggle my fingers, and get on with my business.
DMDaddy 08-09-05, 03:59 AM	I've been playing since I was 12 and I'm 35 now. I also became a Christian at age 21 of the UPC (United Pentecastol Church). I've preached a dozen or so times,helped with pastoral counceling, and led song service. I go to an Assembly of God church at the moment and am working on meeting the requirements to eventually become an ordained minister. I have not found a danger in D&D. But, I don't tell anyone I play. If they do find out, and a few have, I just tell them it's not what you think. Plus, I have freewill and I don't care what they really think about my own moral and ethical choices. I've leaned that with D&D its just not worth it to care what others think.
DrMorganes 08-09-05, 05:10 AM	The sober Christian-attacked faith of Wicca has no connections to Dungeons and Dragons, and it never really has. Wicca also has no connections to Satanism, so you can't assume that a Wiccan worships Satan. The two faiths are completely different and both deny any involvement with the other.As it happens, D&D has more of its roots in the Christian faith than most seem to realize. Gygax borrowed heavily from Tolkein. In many places he took things whole cloth. If you happen to find them, take a gander through the original 3 paperback rulebooks. They're about the size of an A5 notepad. The bit about "hobbits" particularly, but I digress... Tolkein was a friend and contemporary of C.S. Lewis - a man considered by many to be one of the foremost Christian thinkers of his day. Both men were Christian. You don't need to look very hard at their writing to see the Christian themes. I've had this discussion with many, many people over the years - including a pastor or two - and it boils down to dealing with the misconceptions surrounding the game. The media debacle back in the '80s didn't help. Now days I tend to pull out things like Peter Jackson's epic retelling of the Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Tolkein's work, The Chronicles of Narnia, the Prince Valient comic and cartoon (the latter had a good run on The 700 Club, by the by), etc. I try to find out where my debate partner draws his line in the sand, so to speak, before I ever bring D&D back to the table. If the person is vehemently against all things fantastic, smile, shake their hand, and excuse yourself from the conversation. You will have NO impact on this person at all, ever. For those a bit less rigid in their conviction, find out what they believe to be true about the game. Refute their points with factual information, relate the game to things within their tolerance level, and invite them to check out a copy of the Player's Handbook from their local library. Most larger ones will have copies available to lend, and those that don't can get them via inter-library loan. Explain that D&D is basically a collabrotive framework for telling heroic stories, similar to improvisational theatre, but with a common theme, a bit more structure, and a hands-on director. Mention as well that D&D is not the only RPG out there. Games where the players are gunslingers, modern spys, members of futuristic societies, etc all exist. Ask if they have issues with any of these, but for your own sanity STAY AWAY FROM WHITE WOLF. You don't want to deal with the whole "players as monsters" concept at this point in your conversation. Getting them to actually READ the PH is key, since it contains 99% of the rules in the game. Have 'em pay special attention to the chapters on magic; one of the most common misconceptions is that the game actually teaches one to cast spells... :rolleyes: The Escapist is a good reference. So is this (http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html). Tracy Hickman (the Dragonlance author and Morman) has some interesting things to say on the subject of Christianity, D&D, and gaming in general. A snippet:Q: You wrote Dungeons & Dragons(r) games for many years. How could you support that 'wicked and demon-worshipping' game? The game itself is not an evil thing -- it's what people do with it that is often wrong. Dungeons & Dragons(r) was started by a man by the name of Gary Gygax back in the mid-seventies as an offshoot of miniatures wargaming. It quickly took on a wide college fandom and became something of an icon during the 'eighties. It was during that same time that a great resurgence in christian churchs took place in a return to spirituality. Zealots supporting the game and the churches came into conflict with a great deal of miscommunication on both sides. The main problem, from my perspective, was not that D&D(r) was an 'evil' game but that it failed to take much of a moral position AT ALL except to insist on a vague adherance to the comic book code. It was a game where 'anything you wanted' could happen. Role playing games can be powerful tools for behavior modification. To my mind, it was rather like giving power tools to two year olds: huge potential without any guidance. I cannot speak for others who design these games but I can say with assurance that the games I designed while there always took a very carefully calculated moral slant and tried to teach positive values as central to their design. I would strongly admonish others who design their games to look beyond the illusory dream itself to the message that their games convey. I also strongly admonish anyone who is playing these games to carefully select only those settings and scenarios that espouse positive moral structures. I also recomend my 'Ethics in Fantasy: Morality and D&D' (http://www.trhickman.com/essay.html) article for a more indepth treatment of this subject. The bottom line? The games I designed were always carefully crafted morality tales that reflected my own Christian beliefs -- as for anyone elses, you should participate in them with open eyes. Enough from me on the subject for now. I'll close by saying this: Do your research. Know your opposition. Use documented facts to refute misinformation. Stay calm. Stay nice. Don't expect to actually change someone's mind.
Jinja 08-09-05, 05:31 AM	What you need to do is find the teacher that's so outspoken that she'd be crazy enough to lose her career over getting the D&D club official. We got one at my high school. Or I suppose you could hide it in a gaming club and tell them you'll play video games. (Our video game club had people playing D&D and MTG.) And if they do expell you you can make a BIG fuss over it. Like that little kindergartener who got expelled for kissing a classmate. Now I haven't really come into contact with anyone who's tried to convert me or says that D&D is Satanic or whatever. Well except for that one time that my mother watched that Christian-propoganda film about Harry Potter being evil, which I dutifully scoffed at her for even thinking of listening to. What would be really fun to do is find all the instances in history where fanatic christian zealots made asses of themselves and then totally humiliate them with your witty retoric. The Salem Witch Trials come to mind....
CJDragon 08-09-05, 06:38 AM	The best counter argument I have is the fact that officially the fourth largest religion in the UK is Jedi, (according to the 2001 census i believe... look it up on wikipedia). It came before Judaism, so surely it should be an accepted religion, no? About this time they'll be disagreeing, so you just point out that if they don't respect, they dont have to accept them and believe them, just respect the views of the fourth largest religion in the UK, why should you be expected to accept their's? Especially when its on a topic (gaming) which they have no experience or knowledge. Then you just walk away, leaving them with something to think about.
Saihtam 08-09-05, 07:20 AM	If someone asks you about dnd or any related subject, you should explain it to the best of your abilities. If someone condemns dnd without having played it, or at least read any of the books, don't even try, because you'll use a lot of time and energy doing so and he won't be convinced any way. You shouldn't have to bother about defending dnd. It's not a religion or sect, it's not a political or social view. It's a GAME. It's an opportunity to meat some friends and play a real fun GAME! How you play is totaly up to the players (+dm). You can adapt it to your age, intrests, knowledge, ... If you want to play it in a ruin of some castle, dress like your character and bring actual weapons, that's up to you. If you want to play it while drinking an pint of beer, that's up to you. If you want to play it while trying to summon one of the arch-demons to conquer the entire world, that's up to you. Playing a certain game, listening to certain music, reading certain books, ... doesn't automaticly change the way you live. I play dnd and other fantasy games, but I also have a lot of other hobbies. I listen to marilyn manson, Nightwish, ..., but I also listen to John Denver, Dire Straits, Roxette, ... I like horror books and movies, but I also like a good comedie, documentary or sometimes even a chick-flick. What's most important is that while doing any of the things mentioned above, I enjoy myself, and there's no one who's going to change anything about that. I do have to admit : in Belgium dnd isn't realy thought of to be satanic or anything like that (only geeky). I started this posted trying to make a point, but I totaly forgot what that was, so let's just keep it with this : Dnd is a game (and a damned good one), so enjoy it. If someone is sceptical about it tell him/her to join one of your sessions, if he/she refuses don't waste any more time on that person, you probably have better thing to do.
Orcboss 08-09-05, 10:26 AM	1. A kid's game and a waste of time for a college student like myself. All games are a waste of time. That's the point. 2. Anti-Christian and/or Satanic. Hand them a PHB and say, "If it's Satanic, it shouldn't be hard to find instructions for worshipping Satan. Show them to me. I'll wait." I've been gaming about 15 years and I've never found anyone who could find those instructions.
pres_man 08-09-05, 10:32 AM	Hand them a PHB and say, "If it's Satanic, it shouldn't be hard to find instructions for worshipping Satan. Show them to me. I'll wait." I've been gaming about 15 years and I've never found anyone who could find those instructions. And then someone hands you the bible and says, "Surely, you can find the details on how exactly one should worship God. Right?"
Orcboss 08-09-05, 10:54 AM	The Bible contains far more detail on worshipping God than the PHB does on worhipping anything.
q'afuu 08-09-05, 11:52 AM	The best counter argument I have is the fact that officially the fourth largest religion in the UK is Jedi, (according to the 2001 census i believe... look it up on wikipedia). It came before Judaism, so surely it should be an accepted religion, no? No. It's not an official religion, despite any practical jokes. Figuring on a census doesn't make it a religion. ;) If George Lucas wanted the Jedi 'faith' to become an officially recognized religion and receive government funding and benefits like officially recognized religions do, he'd have to try something else.
AmanitaEata 08-09-05, 12:13 PM	I need a convincing argument to use if I should ever become involved in a discussion about the moral and ethical aspects of D&D. No. You don't. Why you people continually persist in posting these threads, I'll never know. We all know where these threads will go. We all know how they will end. So why the need to rehash them again and again? Utterly, utterly pointless.
weasel fierce 08-09-05, 12:23 PM	Makes me wonder why you decided to post in it :)
AmanitaEata 08-09-05, 12:26 PM	Makes me wonder why you decided to post in it :) Don't wonder too hard. I wouldn't want you to break.
weasel fierce 08-09-05, 12:32 PM	Im already broken. We're working on backup systems here
Callista 08-09-05, 12:43 PM	I have been a fan of D&D for a number of years now, and I have often been told that it is: 1. A kid's game and a waste of time for a college student like myself. 2. Anti-Christian and/or Satanic. I know that neither of these assumptions are true, but I need a convincing argument to use if I should ever become involved in a discussion about the moral and ethical aspects of D&D. I know that many threads similar to this one have been posted here, but I need to prove that D&D is not childish or Satanic, and would like your assistance in doing so. (I only hope that posting such a thread as this is not against the WotC message boards' code of conduct.)The best argument you can have for either of those assumptions is the invitation to watch a game. Once you see D&D in action, you know it's not a kids' game (and most players are over 16, anyway); and you know it's not Satanic. "Waste of time"? No. For one thing, playing once or twice a week isn't going to waste time, even with 6-hour sessions. You need free time to function properly; you can't spend all your time studying. So why not spend it doing something social? "Satanic"? I would say this accusation is a result of propaganda more than anything else. Yes, the Bible says that it's wrong to attempt to contact the dead, or to have a "familiar spirit" (a demon who controls/advises you), or to be a witch (usually this means someone who practices necromancy or consorts with demons, usually in an attempt to control or predict the future). But in D&D, you don't actually do those things. Except for the Speak with Dead spell, pretending to do them in D&D is usually Evil. In fact, D&D has such a clear-cut system of morality that I would say it's a benefit to those of us who are religious. It's been a benefit to me, anyway--it's a relief to be the knight who slays the dragon, rather than worry about shades of gray in the modern world. Anyone who is against pretending that your character worships another god, casts spells, or does things you wouldn't do in real life, would be well-advised that if these things are banned, then you might as well ban Greek mythology, Shakespeare, fairy tales... et cetera. And if they do ban that much (my mother, a fundamentalist Christian and thankfully the only one in my family--the rest are normal Christians or just not religious--actually did!), then they're pretty much hopeless.
AmanitaEata 08-09-05, 12:58 PM	Im already broken. We're working on backup systems here ZING! http://www.dvdinmypants.com/forum/images/smiles/DIMP_cr-laugh.gif
CJDragon 08-09-05, 04:55 PM	No. It's not an official religion, despite any practical jokes. Figuring on a census doesn't make it a religion. ;) lol, hey, don't nit-pick, in my experience if you're having an argument where someone is telling you about the evils of something they have no knowledge about, they aren't going to notice minor details like the whole argument being based on a prank :P They are either going to hit you, damn you to hell or storm off (maybe, if its a particually tough argument, all of the above). So my advice is try it anyways, just wear a cup first, and try not to roll round in hysterics if they don't notice that the argument has more holes than swiss cheese, since chances are they wont. Besides, since when have these extreamist anti-D&D type people EVER done their research? :P
q'afuu 08-09-05, 05:18 PM	Actually, that's precisely their modus operandi: presenting inane arguments that have no factual basis but pretending it's an iron-clad case anyway. I like to think of myself as being better than that. ;)
Edymnion 08-09-05, 06:08 PM	And then someone hands you the bible and says, "Surely, you can find the details on how exactly one should worship God. Right?"Mark 12:30-31 "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."
Slumbersigh 08-09-05, 06:12 PM	Actually, that's precisely their modus operandi: presenting inane arguments that have no factual basis but pretending it's an iron-clad case anyway. I like to think of myself as being better than that. ;) But not so much better than you're unwilling to be a bigot, of course, little better than those you criticize.
Rohano 08-09-05, 07:19 PM	Don't pity me cuz I get violent when I'm harrassed. If a christian waves a bible in my face and yells at me, I push his arm away and I get right back in his face and yell right back at him. I'm scary, and I do hold back. If I didn't hold back, I'd've killed a lot of people by now.
Nuntius128 08-09-05, 07:42 PM	*flips through character sheets* Elf Paladin... Dwarf Paladin... Aasimar Paladin... Githzerai Monk... Githzerai Soulknife... Satanist? Not in my books. But that argument won't go over so well. Honestly, the best thing to do is use your own good judgement(as best as you can). If you know someone, or think someone might think of you as less of a person for the games you play, its best just not to tell them. The most important weapon is your ability to accept that sometimes, other people won't agree with you. At the very least, if you treat naysayers as human beings on the same level as you would yourself, it'll probably make them question their own ethics. How could such a nice person possibly be a Satanist? :D Its a game, no different than chess. "Yeah, well, the Wizard does this..." "Yeah, well, the rook does this..." See? And if you get bent out of shape because someone doesn't like the game you play, it ceases to be a game, because games are supposed to be fun.
Seeker95 08-09-05, 09:52 PM	If a christian waves a bible in my face and yells at me, I push his arm away and I get right back in his face and yell right back at him.At which point you have commited felony assault.
Tuah Shinguru 08-09-05, 09:58 PM	For the first, tell them that life is more a waste of time than sitting around feeling depressed. For the second, show them the final part of the Player's Handbook's introduction; the part that says this book's world is entirely fictional.
WizO_Cat 08-09-05, 10:40 PM	Ok, this is just a friendly reminder to keep the focus of discussion on Dungeons and Dragons (that's why this board is here after all) and not other religions or other guests. It's cool to discuss what the effect the religion may have on Dungeons and Dragons, but not discussion on religious text or validity of the religion, for example. For all of those who have been able to do so, thanks and continue to post in such a manner.
q'afuu 08-10-05, 08:50 AM	But not so much better than you're unwilling to be a bigot, of course, little better than those you criticize. There are no solid arguments to support the notion that D&D is Satanic. If arguments are presented as such anyway, it's hardly bigotry not to accept that.
High Octane 08-10-05, 09:07 AM	The problem is that the people who make these accusations are unwilling to seek proof. They work on hearsay (sic, hear-say is how its pronounced, not herecy) and wont read the books since they feel they will go to hell for it. Its like saying looking at something will cause you to go blind. Can they prove it? No because no one is willing to look at it. They cant prove it because if they tried, they would go blind since they would have to look at it.
Callista 08-10-05, 09:27 AM	The problem is that the people who make these accusations are unwilling to seek proof. They work on hearsay (sic, hear-say is how its pronounced, not herecy) and wont read the books since they feel they will go to hell for it.This is no reason to look down on Christians, or on anyone else, for that matter (unless you look down on people who accept things that aren't logical, which makes more sense than looking down on a religion). People accept a lot of things that aren't logical: Urban legends, for example. One of my house mates believes that daddy longlegs are the world's most poisonous animal (http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/longlegs.htm), which is an obvious myth. And my mother still believes that you can get cancer by getting too close to a microwave oven (again, untrue; you could get burned if you put your hand into a working microwave oven, but the microwave radiation is not even as energetic as normal heat waves and can't do the necessary DNA damage to cause cancer). That's what the "D&D is satanic" thing is: An urban myth. People accept it without thinking because someone they know told them about it. That those people tend to be Christians really doesn't mean much, since there are urban legends prevalent to just about every group--stories that get passed around because they happened to a "friend of a friend", and taken as truth. For an example, see the "Eric and the Gazebo" tale that's been floating around for ages--it may or may not have happened, but by now, no one knows where it got started or who "Eric" is, though many people swear it happened to a friend. Urban legends are mostly harmless, and probably, at most, annoying. "D&D is satanic/makes people commit suicide/kill people/go crazy" falls into the "annoying" category... but it's just that: An urban legend.
Thailfi 08-10-05, 10:55 AM	People accept a lot of things that aren't logical: Urban legends, for example. Oy, ain't that the truth. My wife refuses to believe that saccarhine and Nutrasweet are safe regardless of how many FDA and CDC studies I show her. Darn internet! I still don't know why these threads pop up. I just can't believe there are that many confrontations between Bible thumpers and D&D players that can't be resolved by avoiding the topic. My advice is to rationally explain D&Ds lack of satanic content once and when that doesn't work (and it won't), avoid the topic with that person like the plague. If they bring up the topic, change the subject. Most people eventually get tired of talking to a brick wall.
High Octane 08-10-05, 11:15 AM	The best way to prove them wrong is to bring the supposed evil content in front of them and ask them to prove their claims. And I dont look down on Christians, or any religion for that matter.
q'afuu 08-10-05, 01:52 PM	My wife refuses to believe that saccarhine and Nutrasweet are safe regardless of how many FDA and CDC studies I show her. Depending on how many gallons of Diet Coke she'd drink, she might actually be right. It'd have to be a great many gallons though. ;)
RDQ 08-10-05, 01:54 PM	DnD takes alot of skills becuase of the strategic thinking and the fact that math can be/is involved. It is not a kids game because of those two main things. Satinism on the other hand, is the worship of Satan/Lucifer an is in no way shape or form related to DnD. I've had a lot of practice in this because I'm a sophomore in high school an I get teased about it at least once a day. Now if I could jus figure out away to get my grandparents off my back. They are over protective, very relgious, an my grandfather hates any an all of my guy friends. Now throw in the fact that I am the only girl in my DnD group an you have ample oppotunity for my grandparents to rip on me. So ya I know bout this kindof stuff.
weasel fierce 08-10-05, 02:04 PM	Urban legends are harmless, untill its you getting expelled from school, grounded, harassed or restricted in what you spend your free time on, due to overzealous parents, teachers, clergy or whatnot
Giant Turtle 08-10-05, 03:26 PM	For the people that say D&D is for children, hand them a Boov of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds, with the "Mature Content, Must be 18 or older to purchase" stickers still on it. As for D&D being satanic and evil, show them the Paladin class and the Knights of the Chalice Prestige Class, those two obviously say, God good, demons bad.
pres_man 08-10-05, 03:33 PM	DnD takes alot of skills becuase of the strategic thinking and the fact that math can be/is involved. It is not a kids game because of those two main things. Satinism on the other hand, is the worship of Satan/Lucifer an is in no way shape or form related to DnD. Oh, I don't know about that. See it has math in it. So ... "The good Christian should beware of mathematicians and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell." St. Augustine (354-430) It should be noted that at the time, the term mathematician refered to astrologiers. Though admittedly many math(s) students would not doubt this statement if it was related to mathmatics teachers. ;)
DMDaddy 08-10-05, 04:18 PM	It should be noted that at the time, the term mathematician refered to astrologiers. Christians, astrology, and witchcraft are a funny thing. Even star gazing, observing of seasons and times and many other similar forbidden things. The fact that our callender is based on the stars, even our time system (clocks and such), birthdays, easter, christmas, halloween, fall, summer, winter, spring, constellation, zodiac signs and many many more. These are all associated with witchcraft and devil worship. The whole point is: The church being able to decide what is right or wrong is flawed and hypicritical in many ways. Yes, murder is wrong, and it should be wrong, but D&D falls into a gray area and should be left to personal decisions based on church warnings that it could be dangerous if abused. Likewise a car can be used as a murder weapon. Maybe we shouldn't drive cars seeing that they have potential for evil. Or, just maybe such decisions are left to our own personal choosing.
Kycir 08-10-05, 09:47 PM	OK I got something I think none of you want to touch. One of the original place that the satanic was a label put on D&D. Other that people misunderstanding suicides. There is one case of masss suicide that can't be anothing other than derived from D&D. Now before I get into that you must understand i have been playing D&D for a great many of years and enjoy the game and other peoples oponions won't stop me from doing that. Now I can't remember the date exactly, but it was in the 80's. I have been attempting to contact my mentor since the start of this thread for the exact date but have had no luck. In New Mexico there was a group who played D&D only they played it not as an RPG but as a LARP (Live action Roleplaying Game) and while we know the difference the onlookers don't. They didn't play in the normal LARP way either they played "what happened to your character happened to you". Most of the time the game went fine until the DM found that one of his players was sleeping with his sister. he created a trap to kill the player and that the other players could escape, but the other players refused to leave him for dead, as they knew the consequences. every player wrote a goodbye note to their families and committed suicide that night. The reason I mentioned my Mentor earlier was because he lost his Brother in this mess. At the time he was a casual player of D&D and after he didn't play again until 98 when he met me. We worked at a Boy Scout summer camp together and in the evenings I would DM a game for the fellow staffers. He sat in and watched a few games to make sure with himself that what we were doing was not the same, and after 2 weeks he told me everything and asked if he could join the game. To this day he continues to play and knows that what his brother was doing truely had nothing to do with what the game really was but to onlookers and people who seek to destroy D&D this was their fuel. also this site has a few interestings to point out http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html and in this one (one of my favorite knowledge sites) you ahve to scroll down to Criticism and controversies but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons If you have any questions for me post them here or e-mail them to me at maskedplant@yahoo.com
SnowbearK 08-10-05, 11:09 PM	He really wouldn't have to even try, to be honest, for the Jedi to become an officially-recognized religion. All he'd need is 50 (or is it 150?) people to sign a petition, present it in court, and poof it's a recognized religion. It really is that easy.
Thorak 08-10-05, 11:33 PM	Kycir, two points; First, "satanism" has a much, much longer history than you apparently think. I'm talking centuries. Though, in almost every case, it was a label applied, by Christians, on those of another faith. And yes, there's no such thing as a "real" satanist, just like there's no such thing as a "real" druid. The ones that do exist are modern creations that are only loosely based on any kind of historical background. It's fine to follow them as religions, but its inane to claim that there's any history to them. Secondly, correlation is not causation. Just because some people committed suicide and they played, or even blamed, D&D, does not mean D&D was what made them commit suicide. In another recent thread on this subject, someone compared the rates of suicides blamed on D&D compared to the suicide rates of priests. D&D players come out ahead. Far, far ahead. The rate is something like 50 times lower. D&D causes a great deal less suicide than being a Christian priest. So I don't see any basis for claiming Christianity is "better" in causing fewer suicides. SNIP. Let's refrain from the specific real life examples - especially when it comes to religious and political organizations. Thanks.
anarco_rata 08-11-05, 10:29 AM	(about jedi as a religion) No. It's not an official religion, despite any practical jokes. Figuring on a census doesn't make it a religion. ;) Well, why not? just like eberron, if many people believe in a particular set of codes of conduct and rules, and trully believe them to be truth and guide their lives, then it's a religion. You don't need a goverment to aprove your religion if you believe in it. There's a thing called: freedom, i think you guys know it. You and the next guy are both free of believe whatever the hell you want to believe. If you would like to adore a pagan god of wine, then by all means, do it. This is only bad when you start hurting other's freedom of choise, just like when (very few) crhistians start acussing us of beign satanist, wich by the way, is only evil in THEIR standars, just because it oposes their religion. I know a few satanist (and not those angry gothic teenagers that play as ones-real satanist-) wich are actually a lot more pleasant than those christian extremist, well, i mean pleasant in the way that they don't care what you believe as long as you don't mind their bussines. Historically, the christian faith has a long record of trying to impose itself over other, more peacefull, more ancient religions. Pagans where hunted down by the church and forced to convert or die. Even the science was considered satanist and the dark ages where a direct consecuence of the church's stuborness (for saying the least). So i say: christians extremist are a plage. Is ok to believe in your religion to be the one truth, but just because somebody doesn't share your point of view makes them evil? BS. When a extrmist comes with the usual: dnd is satanist, dnd is evil, you kill virgins, blha, blha, blha, just turn around, you're late to your campaign anyway. btw: this is not meant to offend, as i say, believe what you want.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-11-05, 10:48 AM	*Reads thread results* Fundamentalist Chrisitan Panicmongers: 0 Reasonable Christians Who Play and/or Support D&D: A billion :D But seriously, I love how good people can just invalidate crazy arguments any day of the week. All it takes is a little logic, rather than blind incitation of hate and fear.
q'afuu 08-11-05, 11:02 AM	You don't need a goverment to aprove your religion if you believe in it. Of course you don't need approval. However, if you want endorsement, you need official recognition. And that's not as easy to get as having a petition signed by 150+ people.
anarco_rata 08-11-05, 11:19 AM	Of course you don't need approval. However, if you want endorsement, you need official recognition. And that's not as easy to get as having a petition signed by 150+ people. agree, however, we don't need no recognition. We survived the empire , the force will guide us. :rolleyes:
beezly 08-11-05, 11:38 AM	To be fair, D&D can be perceived as satanic in a very literal sense. sa·tan·ic Audio pronunciation of "satanic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-tnk, s-) or sa·tan·i·cal (--kl) adj. 1. Relating to or suggestive of Satan or evil. Well, the game very much suggestive of evil (a first level paladin can detect it ;)). And the demons and devils are at least partially based on the christian belief system.
Nurgan_the_drunked 08-11-05, 12:13 PM	sa·tan·ic Audio pronunciation of "satanic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-tnk, s-) or sa·tan·i·cal (--kl) adj. 1. Relating to or suggestive of Satan or evil. By this definition, there's a million and one things that can be decribed as "satanic". A fair ol' number of bible passages being amongst them. It really should be glorifying or encouraging the concept of worship of satan or dark forces, which D&D isn't. Kycir, that's a weird story, but it does boil down to the thing of if someone did this, they would find something else to focus themselves on. You can't blame D&D for the fact that there are people who are prepared to throw their life away.
DemonDragonJ 08-11-05, 02:23 PM	Wow! Look at this huge thread that I started! I had no idea that it would grow so large. Thank you, everybody, for the feedback. I has helped me realize that I should not have even started this whole stupid thread in the first place. I realize now that if people are going to label D&D as being either childish or Satanic, then they are displaying their own ignorance of it, and I should pay them no heed. Now, please let this thread die and rest in peace.
elvenwizard 08-11-05, 02:48 PM	Anyone who believes the D&D is Satanic is ignorant of the game and probably bases their opinion soley on fundamentalist propaganda garbage. If such a person sat in on a session in my current campaign, he would be hard pressed to find anything satanic in my group's party, consisting of a/an: Hound Archon Paladin Aaismar Exalted Arcanist Cleric of Lathander, and Initiate of Pistis Sophia. Even when we do play an evil campaign (and it does happen), my group and I keep it at a tasteful level (the Book of Vile Darkness is generally used only for NPC villians), and we certainly aren't brainwashed into becoming unholy blights-upon-civilization by the experience. It is a game and only a game, and we have the maturity to see the difference between fantasy and reality. I take the accusations of evangelical zealots ("DnD brainwashes the youth") to be an insult to my own intelligence.
Helmed Horror 08-11-05, 03:58 PM	well, I too feel that this thread shall die in peace now.. unfortunatley... I read that part a little too late :weep: I wrote up this whole post...all well.... I have it here in the spoiler for those who want to read it.... well, a personal story of mine involves a good catholic kid who has been playing dnd and vists the forums regularly... that has moved on to more christian orientated RPG's due to the quite numerous (not to mention contradictory sense) of the free-thinking movement. (most notably due to the nature of evil thread... here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6870866#post6870866)) ) We are good friends IRL, he was telling me, (and gave me sources and examples) that the DND = EVIL idea sprouted most notably from the christian sect of evangelical protestants. I am not denouncing DnD nor this particular denomination, but as a roman catholic, I feel very hurt by some poster's use of derogatory terms to my fellow christians, but I too feel that the said denomination as do all religions, make no exception, say they are perfect. Nothing is perfect on this plane of existence. Of course there are many die-hard catholic parents that disallow DnD in thier house, same as muslims, judists...every religion! every religion based on healthy moral principals that is... ;) There is no law, commandment, bible passage, nor any reference of DnD being evil. Of course there will always be skeptics, and in this case, ignorance isn't bliss... Come on... whats more blissful than the idea of spending some high quality hours of fun with your friends? :D Please refer them to www.rpgmp3.com and tell them to listen to the WLD game's recordings and pease listen for any references to summoning demons and sacrificing themselves for some dark god. You will be surprised that demon summoning sounds a lot like a bunch of middle aged english folk having a good time rolling dice, eating, and smashing monsters!
Seeker95 08-11-05, 07:58 PM	I realize now that if people are going to label D&D as being either childish or SatanicActually, if you read some of the posts in this thread, people labeling D&D as childish aren't that far off the mark! :D
DMDaddy 08-11-05, 08:21 PM	The best way to prove them wrong is to bring the supposed evil content in front of them and ask them to prove their claims. I'll play DEVIL's advocate. This suggestion as well as the: bring them to watch a game session will not work on many christians. Especially radical conservatives. The idea is that any thing not of God is of the devil. You shall set no graven images before your eyes of things in heaven, or of the earth, or under the earth. I'm only scratching the surface. There are so many proof texts from the bible to counter even the contemplation of Dungeons and Dragons. Some one else said that looking could make you blind. Therefore no one will look for fear of going blind. Actually, its fear of being rejected by the church. This, too, is the mind set. To do different than what the church does is herecy. Many christian groups will exclude other christians who go against "sound" doctrine. Point being: some of the more liberal churches may benifit from watching a game session and may see the game as "not so bad". But, the more radical churches will not even give you the time of day. It's pure evil, in their eyes, and they dare not go against church teachings for fear of exclusion. Disclaimer: I am a christian and have been playing D&D for ever. I have no gripes against any who choose yea or nay. Although I'm thinking of converting to JEDI. It sounds appealing. Using the force to make my coffee in the morning will be a great help.
elvenwizard 08-12-05, 08:47 AM	Disclaimer: I am a christian and have been playing D&D for ever. I have no gripes against any who choose yea or nay. Although I'm thinking of converting to JEDI. It sounds appealing. Using the force to make my coffee in the morning will be a great help. I'm getting a little off the thread topic here but: If half the people who I've heard say they would become "Jedi" actually did, we would have a legitimate new world religion. Interesting thought, no? :D
Kycir 08-12-05, 07:00 PM	Kycir, two points; First, "satanism" has a much, much longer history than you apparently think. I'm talking centuries. Though, in almost every case, it was a label applied, by Christians, on those of another faith. Ok I didn't say that it was the start of "Satanism". I said it was one of the first acts that allowed fanatics to put the label there. I don't agree with them. I am simply leaving it at that. you just must have misinterpreted my meaning. Secondly, correlation is not causation. Just because some people committed suicide and they played, or even blamed, D&D, does not mean D&D was what made them commit suicide. Again I'm not saying it causes more suicide than everything else! I'm not even saying what those people did was caused by D&D. I was simply saying they did it because of a intricate system of rules they had laid out for each other based around D&D. I was saying and I even mentioned that this was fuel for zealots. If you can't understand that then you have way more to learn than I care to teach. oh yeah and In another recent thread on this subject, someone compared the rates of suicides blamed on D&D compared to the suicide rates of priests. D&D players come out ahead. Far, far ahead. The rate is something like 50 times lower. D&D causes a great deal less suicide than being a Christian priest. So I don't see any basis for claiming Christianity is "better" in causing fewer suicides Well duh! Christianity has been around for over 2000 years (arguably)! one priest committing suicide every 2.5 years (which we know there have been way more but a lower number will only make the gap that is about to come more in your favor.) would give a total of 800 suicides. There have been 17-22 suicides blamed on D&D by zealots whether they were or not I am not here to argue. for a nice even number lets say 20. that means that there have been 40 times as many suicides contributed to christianity. BUT in a huge time difference! So lets make this a bit more scientific and look at the relative dates. 800 over 2000 years = 1 suicide every 2.5 years. while 20 over 30 years = 1 suicide every 1.5 years. Now take these figures and compare them on a similar time span. that's 1333 deaths thanks to D&D and 800 thanks to Christianity. Isn't it nice how you can bend numbers to prove any point?
Seeker95 08-12-05, 07:27 PM	I'm not even saying what those people did was caused by D&D. I was simply saying they did it because of a intricate system of rules they had laid out for each other based around D&D.[quote]You're claiming it was not caused by D&D, but they did it because of D&D. Pick one.[quote]one priest committing suicide every 2.5 years [...] would give a total of 800 suicides. There have been 17-22 suicides blamed on D&D by zealots [...] for a nice even number lets say 20. that means that there have been 40 times as many suicides contributed to christianity.Nice try. Actually, none of the above is valid, logical, true, or relevant. You made up the numbers, twisted the nouns, switched causation and correlation and then repalced conclusions. Whatever point you are trying to make gets lost in your failure to deliver it.
Thorak 08-13-05, 02:21 AM	Ok I didn't say that it was the start of "Satanism". I said it was one of the first acts that allowed fanatics to put the label there. I don't agree with them. I am simply leaving it at that. you just must have misinterpreted my meaning. I didn't misinterpret it. I just remember little things like the Inquisition that involved fanatics labelling people as satanists hundreds of years before D&D was ever an issue.
SnowbearK 08-13-05, 05:28 AM	Quote: Originally Posted by Rohano If a christian waves a bible in my face and yells at me, I push his arm away and I get right back in his face and yell right back at him. At which point you have commited felony assault. Just to backtrack a moment, it's not felony assault. It's self-defence at the very least... "You see, the bible-waving christian was in possession of an object and waving it around like a maniac in my face, which is a direct threat -- with a weapon mind you -- upon my person. I then proceeded to deter further violation -- with my voice, not with physical violence, nor did I respond in kind with a weapon." At worst the judge is an ultra-christian/bigot and you have to appeal, other than that, if no physical harm was present on the bible-waver, there's pretty much no way you'd get more than a stern talking to. ;) Back to the subject at hand, since we're letting it die anyways...
AmanitaEata 08-15-05, 10:27 AM	"You see, the bible-waving christian was in possession of an object and waving it around like a maniac in my face, which is a direct threat -- with a weapon mind you -- upon my person. I then proceeded to deter further violation -- with my voice, not with physical violence, nor did I respond in kind with a weapon." At worst the judge is an ultra-christian/bigot and you have to appeal, other than that, if no physical harm was present on the bible-waver, there's pretty much no way you'd get more than a stern talking to. Seek not a career in the legal world.
anarco_rata 08-15-05, 11:16 AM	It's self-defence at the very least... Especially because touching us with a bible burns our skin. Although I'm thinking of converting to JEDI. It sounds appealing. Using the force to make my coffee in the morning will be a great help. Undiscriminate use of the force, a way to the dark side it is.
hazel monday 08-15-05, 12:45 PM	christianity is stupid. communism is good.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-15-05, 12:51 PM	christianity is stupid. communism is good. And the thread has been shot between the eyes by a trolling idiot.
Meshakhad 08-15-05, 01:24 PM	I have not encountered, personally, anyone telling me that D&D=Satanism. Probably because I am Jewish, and don't hang out with Christian clergy, especially since I have this really strong feeling that Jack Chick is an anti-Semite. My proof that D&D does not involve Satanism is this: The demon cult archetype in D&D is based on popular notions of Satanism. Many adventures revolve around eliminating such groups in the name of righteousness. Many D&D characters are not evil bandits and murderers (although some people in the town watch think so), but rather they can be paragons of righteousness that none of us could ever hope to live up to. This includes a plurality of paladins, good clerics, and a majority of exalted characters. Oh, and I have checked with my rabbi, who says that playing D&D and having your character worship fictional gods is perfectly OK. Heck, he didn't have a problem with Age of Mythology, which involves worshipping gods from REAL mythologies!
DMDaddy 08-15-05, 01:51 PM	Undiscriminate use of the force, a way to the dark side it is. Ummm...that's ok, Darth Vader and all the others from the darkside were able to do much more cooler stuff. Yeah...,I want to do cool stuff. I'll still be a JEDI, just black, or dark, or something.
ILL34GL3 08-15-05, 05:21 PM	Everything you need to know to own a christian in any bible based argument. (http://www.evilbible.com/) With the very questionable content of the bible, no christian has the right to question the morality of any activity.
anarco_rata 08-15-05, 07:55 PM	Ummm...that's ok, Darth Vader and all the others from the darkside were able to do much more cooler stuff. Yeah...,I want to do cool stuff. I'll still be a JEDI, just black, or dark, or something. The ways of the sith are not for the weak :devil: christianity is stupid. communism is good. do not feed the trolls :D they dont even know what they say As far as i am concerned, they can think whatever the hell they want to think, as long as they don't mess with us. Your rights end when mine's begin.
Edymnion 08-15-05, 10:12 PM	especially since I have this really strong feeling that Jack Chick is an anti-Semite.Jack Chick is anti-everything. He thinks that the jews and the catholics are both members of the same secret organization as the nazis, homosexuals, and free masons whom all worship satan in order to rule the world, and use D&D, comic books, and any non-christian music to recruit new people into their dark fold to rule the world. And no, I am not exaggerating or being silly. The man is mentally unstable.
Knights_Disciple 08-15-05, 10:28 PM	Edymnion: Dude, Jack Chick is in a class by himself. He gives the blind, ignorant, knee-jerk Christians a bad name. Not to mention giving a horrid picture of we more resonable members of the faith. I say we start a crusade to stop Jack Chick. Who's with me?!?! :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
Knights_Disciple 08-15-05, 10:34 PM	But on a more serious note, I do not believe there is a conflict between my Christian faith and playing D&D. I've taken the time to sit down and consider the common objections to the game from my fellow Christians, and I just don't think these points are valid. And despite my previous post, I do not hold a great distaste for most of my fellow members of the faith who disagree with this game. For some, it is a sincere matter of conscience, and I cannot force them to play. And for some, I think it boils down to misconceptions, miscommunication, and just generally not giving the situation more than a passing glance. And I don't feel like debating people about my faith, just to stave that off now. In conclusion, there should be no absolute moral conflict between Christianity and Dungeons&Dragons.
ORC_Paradox 08-15-05, 10:57 PM	This thread is indeed heading in the familiar religion bashing direction. *Click*