D&D e-tools [Archive] - Wizards Community

D&D e-tools [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Imperator58
04-22-07, 10:14 AM I know it was supposed to have been a marginal product, but I'm still interested in finding the D&D software e-tools. Man, I can't find the damn thing anywhere! Not online hobby shops, not eBay, not half.com. I'm wondering if my search parameters are wrong. I'm trying "dungeons dragons e-tools."
1. Anyone know where this can be found?
2. Is there a superior character/monster/encounter/tables software available that will get it done as well or better?
3. Is there a 3.5 version in the works that suggests I should just wait?
Darkwind
04-22-07, 11:47 AM Are you just wanting the original disc? It had a lot of bugs, and wasn't that great, then they liscenced Code Monkey to fix it and IMO they did an alright job of that. Later Code Monkey went on to add data sets and eventually 3.5 support and 3.5 data sets. But Wizards came to a decission to not renew the liscence with Code Monkey (i will not comment my opinion as to why as I have no wish to speak ill of either company), and now it is not for sale any longer through Code Monkey. As far as an original disc, I would suggest keeping an eye on eBay, although if you want it updated your only chance may be Limewire or something along those lines. I will personally look around after posting this and if I find anything I will let you know.
Darkwind
04-22-07, 12:20 PM I just checked around, if you want the original disc, you can simply search for "Dungeons and Dragons E Tools" on your' browser and you will find seveal ways to get it as a download. Feel free to send me an AIM message if you want to talk about the program as I have a fully updated version with lots of data sets and I can give you my account of how it works as well as some insight on getting it working for you.
Imperator58
04-22-07, 09:02 PM Thanks!
I'll have a look around.
delirium
04-23-07, 04:41 AM 2. Is there a superior character/monster/encounter/tables software available that will get it done as well or better?

eTools will get the job done, but there have been a number of new tools released recently that I feel are a significant step forward. I recommend you check out Hero Lab, Redblade, and RPGXplorer. My personal preference is Hero Lab. There is also PCGen, but I don't consider it a "step forward'. It's primary advantage is that it's got boatloads of add-ons available for it, although it's quite clunky to use and extend (IMHO).
kingpaul
04-23-07, 11:37 AM There is also PCGen, but I don't consider it a "step forward'. It's primary advantage is that it's got boatloads of add-ons available for it, although it's quite clunky to use and extend (IMHO).
How do you mean by "clunky"? We're always looking for feedback on how to improve the program.
RogerWilco
04-26-07, 08:03 PM How do you mean by "clunky"? We're always looking for feedback on how to improve the program.

Clunky as in "I click on something and it takes a few seconds before something happens".

I like PCGen, but it's indeed definately "clunky".

It's also a lot "zippier" on Linux as on Windows XP. (same hardware). Must be the way the kernels handle threads or something.
kingpaul
04-26-07, 08:29 PM Clunky as in "I click on something and it takes a few seconds before something happens".
Ah, the speed issue. That's something the code team is constantly working to improve.
delirium
04-27-07, 05:56 AM How do you mean by "clunky"? We're always looking for feedback on how to improve the program.
For me, "clunky" includes the lack of an intuitive UI, seemingly hidden functionality (i.e. I have to go digging to find features I want to use), and the convoluted installation process. Compare it to some of the other new tools available and PCGen is clearly a few steps behind the curve in those areas.

For someone who does not want to spend hours figuring out how to use a new tool, PCGen is a poor choice. I know UI improvements are on the PCGen punch list, but the reality is that PCGen is steadily losing ground in this area while the newer tools are gaining substantial ground on PCGen in other areas where they are still playing catch-up. And for some people (including me), the UI is a critical component in what constitutes a "good" tool.

I've got a fast enough machine that the speed isn't a major issue for me, although PCGen is the only application I seem to run that is still sluggish these days. I'm sure that the performance would be an important factor to consider on a slower (i.e. more common) computer.
kingpaul
04-27-07, 06:01 AM For me, "clunky" includes the lack of an intuitive UI, seemingly hidden functionality (i.e. I have to go digging to find features I want to use), and the convoluted installation process.
What hidden functionality are you referring to?

Also, what's convoluted about the install process?
RogerWilco
04-29-07, 09:07 AM What hidden functionality are you referring to?

Also, what's convoluted about the install process?

I was going to make a long post, but I think, I'll write a post with PCGen suggestions some other time, probably on some more PCGen specific forum.
delirium
04-29-07, 05:24 PM What hidden functionality are you referring to?

Also, what's convoluted about the install process?
Apparently, years of conditioning to the use of PCGen has made you oblivious to what the experience is like for new users. Please re-read my post. I didn't say it WAS hidden. I specifically said "seemingly hidden" and then clarified with an explanation of what I meant. A good bit of the functionality I was looking for (i.e. not just one or two things) required that I go dig to find them instead of being readily discoverable. Readily discoverable functionality is a hallmark trait of good UI design. If you're unfamiliar with the topic, there are numerous books on the subject readily available.

If you don't find the installation process convoluted, then I'm not sure what to say here. Let's see. I had to separately download and install the JVR after dealing with the installer for PCGen itself, then dick around with things because it wouldn't work right away, then re-configure the RAM usage in the startup scripts so that it doesn't run like molasses (i.e. is actually usable for me), then separately obtain and install plugins, then configure PCGen so that it uses those plugins. In hindsight, perhaps I should have used a substantially more derogatory adjective, but I was trying to be nice.

I hope this helps to clarify what I meant in my posts regarding PCGen.
kingpaul
04-29-07, 10:54 PM A good bit of the functionality I was looking for (i.e. not just one or two things) required that I go dig to find them instead of being readily discoverable.
And what were you looking for that you had to dig for?
Let's see. I had to separately download and install the JVR after dealing with the installer for PCGen itself
The installer has, to my knowledge, java bundled with it...I use the straight *.zip files. Which installer did you last use that didn't have java included?
then dick around with things because it wouldn't work right away
How so?
then re-configure the RAM usage in the startup scripts so that it doesn't run like molasses (i.e. is actually usable for me)
And there are REM lines in the *.bat files discussing the memory flags. Were they not clear enough? If so, what would you suggest in making them more clear?
then separately obtain and install plugins
What plug-ins did you need to install separately?
delirium
04-30-07, 01:27 AM And what were you looking for that you had to dig for?
I don't recall specifically. It was months ago. I just remember being frustrated due to a variety of things not being readily discoverable through the UI. Sorry that I can't be more specific. I was too frustrated with the tool at the time to take notes, and I saw various posts on the forums at the time to the effect of "we know it needs work", so I figured the PCGen team was aware of this shortcoming.

The installer has, to my knowledge, java bundled with it...I use the straight *.zip files. Which installer did you last use that didn't have java included?
Since I was installing on a Windows box, I used the self-installing EXE that I got from the pcgen.sourceforge.net downloads section. After installing it, I read the instructions, which told me to go get and install the JVR. So I followed the instructions in the manual. I didn't try launching until after installing the JVR. So either the JVR is NOT included or I was supposed to somehow know that the manual contained bogus information.

How so?
JVR issues that I got sorted out with a bit of digging online.

And there are REM lines in the *.bat files discussing the memory flags. Were they not clear enough? If so, what would you suggest in making them more clear?
Er, how about not needing them at all? The word I used for PCGen was "clunky". If having to edit a batch file, circa 1985 technology, is not clunky (or much worse), then we're not speaking the same language.

What plug-ins did you need to install separately?
That's not relevant at this point, and I would have to look closely at it again to jog my memory.

The entire installation process for PCGen was convoluted and antiquated. If I wasn't competent with my computer, I would never have gotten things to work in the first place. As it was, I pushed through to see what the tool actually offered. While it seemed functionally complete (as I originally mentioned), it was not worth my investment of time and energy for the overall usability and experience that it offered. After hours of playing around with PCGen, I gave up on it and uninstalled it.

I have since looked at various other tools, which are vastly superior to PCGen in many important ways. I happen to like Hero Lab the best at this point, just in case you want to take a look at your competition to compare and contrast how it behaves with respect to the shortcomings I identified above.
Birmy
05-02-07, 02:36 PM I've agreed with Delirium before on the Hero Lab issue, and I have to say my opinion on that hasn't changed (see sig for link and my own sparkling endorsement). Good stuff, no doubt about it.

If you're particularly determined to get ETools I'd just take Darkwind up on his offer, but there's a lot of options out there, so it wouldn't hurt to search around.
Amaril
05-03-07, 10:00 AM Regarding, RPGXplorer, while the tool is a really great interface for entering custom data and seems to be fairly flexible in its customization, I still consider the product to be incomplete as it cannot handle monsters, monster advancement, templates, or psionics. Having said that, they are planning to have these features available in their next major update.
Amaril
05-03-07, 10:03 AM I've agreed with Delirium before on the Hero Lab issue, and I have to say my opinion on that hasn't changed (see sig for link and my own sparkling endorsement). Good stuff, no doubt about it.

If you're particularly determined to get ETools I'd just take Darkwind up on his offer, but there's a lot of options out there, so it wouldn't hurt to search around.

Out of curiosity, what is it about HeroLab that is so comepelling? I tried the demo, but it seemed to be difficult to create certain classes. I don't recall the details of that experience, though.
Birmy
05-03-07, 02:50 PM Out of curiosity, what is it about HeroLab that is so comepelling? I tried the demo, but it seemed to be difficult to create certain classes. I don't recall the details of that experience, though.

What classes were you having trouble with? I've added a couple of custom classes myself. The editing tutorial demystifies a lot of the more intimidating aspects, and some of it is a bit confusing (the whole linkages/bootstrapping process), but overall once you twig to the conventions of it it becomes a much more organic process. Anything psionics-based would be difficult (it looks like it's one of the few remaining aspects of the SRD not in there), but I found creating classes to be much easier than I at first thought. You may want to demo the most recent version (I think 1.1c?) as they've really added quite a lot even in the last couple months.

As for what I like about it... I dunno, I think that for me about 99% comes down to the interface. I went on a tear a while back, DLing as many different character generators as I could, and while, sure, a lot them are pretty similar, that was the one I kept coming back to when I needed some quick NPCs or whatever. Most of the other ones seemed made by programmers and not designers, if you follow me, so it made the whole process feel more complicated than it needed to be. I'm not interested in the number crunching and conolutions of the game, so I'm not going to seek it out. Easy as hell to use, customized items and editor for your own material, an in-game function, and data files are imminent for non-d20 systems... what's not to like? A lot of people are used to PC Gen or ETools or whatever, but coming at it cold and without that stubborn inertia that makes people cling to whatever they've been using for years, it hasn't been much of a contest.
delirium
05-04-07, 03:48 AM Out of curiosity, what is it about HeroLab that is so comepelling? I tried the demo, but it seemed to be difficult to create certain classes. I don't recall the details of that experience, though.
The last few updates to Hero Lab have focused heavily on improving the editing process. Adding custom content is quite easy now. It wasn't hard before, but there were definitely rough edges in earlier releases that could be troublesome at times. Fortunately, those seem to have been addressed. Our D&D group has thus far added a variety of classes, feats, skills, etc.

From a usability standpoint, Hero Lab was clearly designed with the user in mind, which certainly is not the case for some of the tools I've tried. The UI is intuitive and the visual feedback prompts me through character creation while also flagging anything that's invalid. I don't have to think about dependencies, restrictions, or limits. I can simply focus on creating the character while letting the computer do all the work.

I've also found the convenience of the in-play support really helpful, both when playing a game and when running a game. Hero Lab cuts down on the bookkeeping, such as effects like Bull's Strength, poison, etc. It also cuts down on how often my group has to refer to the books during the game for details like ranges and durations - just mouse over the info on the laptop for instant answers.

Those are the features that stand out for me. I not going to claim that Hero Lab is perfect by a long shot - I could quickly come up with a list of things I'd love to see added or tweaked. But, based on my personal criteria, it's the best tool that I've tried (and I've tried most of them).
TheGreenGriffon
05-11-07, 10:14 PM If you can buy stuff Online E-Tools and different modules from the prgram can be found here:

http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/
Amaril
05-11-07, 10:26 PM If you can buy stuff Online E-Tools and different modules from the prgram can be found here:

http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/
CMP no longer has the license to sell e-tools or its datasets.
Aaron Highcolor
05-21-07, 07:01 PM I just checked around, if you want the original disc, you can simply search for "Dungeons and Dragons E Tools" on your' browser and you will find seveal ways to get it as a download. Feel free to send me an AIM message if you want to talk about the program as I have a fully updated version with lots of data sets and I can give you my account of how it works as well as some insight on getting it working for you.

Which updates do you have?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Imperator58 04-22-07, 10:14 AM	I know it was supposed to have been a marginal product, but I'm still interested in finding the D&D software e-tools. Man, I can't find the damn thing anywhere! Not online hobby shops, not eBay, not half.com. I'm wondering if my search parameters are wrong. I'm trying "dungeons dragons e-tools." 1. Anyone know where this can be found? 2. Is there a superior character/monster/encounter/tables software available that will get it done as well or better? 3. Is there a 3.5 version in the works that suggests I should just wait?
Darkwind 04-22-07, 11:47 AM	Are you just wanting the original disc? It had a lot of bugs, and wasn't that great, then they liscenced Code Monkey to fix it and IMO they did an alright job of that. Later Code Monkey went on to add data sets and eventually 3.5 support and 3.5 data sets. But Wizards came to a decission to not renew the liscence with Code Monkey (i will not comment my opinion as to why as I have no wish to speak ill of either company), and now it is not for sale any longer through Code Monkey. As far as an original disc, I would suggest keeping an eye on eBay, although if you want it updated your only chance may be Limewire or something along those lines. I will personally look around after posting this and if I find anything I will let you know.
Darkwind 04-22-07, 12:20 PM	I just checked around, if you want the original disc, you can simply search for "Dungeons and Dragons E Tools" on your' browser and you will find seveal ways to get it as a download. Feel free to send me an AIM message if you want to talk about the program as I have a fully updated version with lots of data sets and I can give you my account of how it works as well as some insight on getting it working for you.
Imperator58 04-22-07, 09:02 PM	Thanks! I'll have a look around.
delirium 04-23-07, 04:41 AM	2. Is there a superior character/monster/encounter/tables software available that will get it done as well or better? eTools will get the job done, but there have been a number of new tools released recently that I feel are a significant step forward. I recommend you check out Hero Lab, Redblade, and RPGXplorer. My personal preference is Hero Lab. There is also PCGen, but I don't consider it a "step forward'. It's primary advantage is that it's got boatloads of add-ons available for it, although it's quite clunky to use and extend (IMHO).
kingpaul 04-23-07, 11:37 AM	There is also PCGen, but I don't consider it a "step forward'. It's primary advantage is that it's got boatloads of add-ons available for it, although it's quite clunky to use and extend (IMHO). How do you mean by "clunky"? We're always looking for feedback on how to improve the program.
RogerWilco 04-26-07, 08:03 PM	How do you mean by "clunky"? We're always looking for feedback on how to improve the program. Clunky as in "I click on something and it takes a few seconds before something happens". I like PCGen, but it's indeed definately "clunky". It's also a lot "zippier" on Linux as on Windows XP. (same hardware). Must be the way the kernels handle threads or something.
kingpaul 04-26-07, 08:29 PM	Clunky as in "I click on something and it takes a few seconds before something happens". Ah, the speed issue. That's something the code team is constantly working to improve.
delirium 04-27-07, 05:56 AM	How do you mean by "clunky"? We're always looking for feedback on how to improve the program. For me, "clunky" includes the lack of an intuitive UI, seemingly hidden functionality (i.e. I have to go digging to find features I want to use), and the convoluted installation process. Compare it to some of the other new tools available and PCGen is clearly a few steps behind the curve in those areas. For someone who does not want to spend hours figuring out how to use a new tool, PCGen is a poor choice. I know UI improvements are on the PCGen punch list, but the reality is that PCGen is steadily losing ground in this area while the newer tools are gaining substantial ground on PCGen in other areas where they are still playing catch-up. And for some people (including me), the UI is a critical component in what constitutes a "good" tool. I've got a fast enough machine that the speed isn't a major issue for me, although PCGen is the only application I seem to run that is still sluggish these days. I'm sure that the performance would be an important factor to consider on a slower (i.e. more common) computer.
kingpaul 04-27-07, 06:01 AM	For me, "clunky" includes the lack of an intuitive UI, seemingly hidden functionality (i.e. I have to go digging to find features I want to use), and the convoluted installation process. What hidden functionality are you referring to? Also, what's convoluted about the install process?
RogerWilco 04-29-07, 09:07 AM	What hidden functionality are you referring to? Also, what's convoluted about the install process? I was going to make a long post, but I think, I'll write a post with PCGen suggestions some other time, probably on some more PCGen specific forum.
delirium 04-29-07, 05:24 PM	What hidden functionality are you referring to? Also, what's convoluted about the install process? Apparently, years of conditioning to the use of PCGen has made you oblivious to what the experience is like for new users. Please re-read my post. I didn't say it WAS hidden. I specifically said "seemingly hidden" and then clarified with an explanation of what I meant. A good bit of the functionality I was looking for (i.e. not just one or two things) required that I go dig to find them instead of being readily discoverable. Readily discoverable functionality is a hallmark trait of good UI design. If you're unfamiliar with the topic, there are numerous books on the subject readily available. If you don't find the installation process convoluted, then I'm not sure what to say here. Let's see. I had to separately download and install the JVR after dealing with the installer for PCGen itself, then dick around with things because it wouldn't work right away, then re-configure the RAM usage in the startup scripts so that it doesn't run like molasses (i.e. is actually usable for me), then separately obtain and install plugins, then configure PCGen so that it uses those plugins. In hindsight, perhaps I should have used a substantially more derogatory adjective, but I was trying to be nice. I hope this helps to clarify what I meant in my posts regarding PCGen.
kingpaul 04-29-07, 10:54 PM	A good bit of the functionality I was looking for (i.e. not just one or two things) required that I go dig to find them instead of being readily discoverable. And what were you looking for that you had to dig for? Let's see. I had to separately download and install the JVR after dealing with the installer for PCGen itself The installer has, to my knowledge, java bundled with it...I use the straight .zip files. Which installer did you last use that didn't have java included? then dick around with things because it wouldn't work right away How so? then re-configure the RAM usage in the startup scripts so that it doesn't run like molasses (i.e. is actually usable for me) And there are REM lines in the .bat files discussing the memory flags. Were they not clear enough? If so, what would you suggest in making them more clear? then separately obtain and install plugins What plug-ins did you need to install separately?
delirium 04-30-07, 01:27 AM	And what were you looking for that you had to dig for? I don't recall specifically. It was months ago. I just remember being frustrated due to a variety of things not being readily discoverable through the UI. Sorry that I can't be more specific. I was too frustrated with the tool at the time to take notes, and I saw various posts on the forums at the time to the effect of "we know it needs work", so I figured the PCGen team was aware of this shortcoming. The installer has, to my knowledge, java bundled with it...I use the straight .zip files. Which installer did you last use that didn't have java included? Since I was installing on a Windows box, I used the self-installing EXE that I got from the pcgen.sourceforge.net downloads section. After installing it, I read the instructions, which told me to go get and install the JVR. So I followed the instructions in the manual. I didn't try launching until after installing the JVR. So either the JVR is NOT included or I was supposed to somehow know that the manual contained bogus information. How so? JVR issues that I got sorted out with a bit of digging online. And there are REM lines in the .bat files discussing the memory flags. Were they not clear enough? If so, what would you suggest in making them more clear? Er, how about not needing them at all? The word I used for PCGen was "clunky". If having to edit a batch file, circa 1985 technology, is not clunky (or much worse), then we're not speaking the same language. What plug-ins did you need to install separately? That's not relevant at this point, and I would have to look closely at it again to jog my memory. The entire installation process for PCGen was convoluted and antiquated. If I wasn't competent with my computer, I would never have gotten things to work in the first place. As it was, I pushed through to see what the tool actually offered. While it seemed functionally complete (as I originally mentioned), it was not worth my investment of time and energy for the overall usability and experience that it offered. After hours of playing around with PCGen, I gave up on it and uninstalled it. I have since looked at various other tools, which are vastly superior to PCGen in many important ways. I happen to like Hero Lab the best at this point, just in case you want to take a look at your competition to compare and contrast how it behaves with respect to the shortcomings I identified above.
Birmy 05-02-07, 02:36 PM	I've agreed with Delirium before on the Hero Lab issue, and I have to say my opinion on that hasn't changed (see sig for link and my own sparkling endorsement). Good stuff, no doubt about it. If you're particularly determined to get ETools I'd just take Darkwind up on his offer, but there's a lot of options out there, so it wouldn't hurt to search around.
Amaril 05-03-07, 10:00 AM	Regarding, RPGXplorer, while the tool is a really great interface for entering custom data and seems to be fairly flexible in its customization, I still consider the product to be incomplete as it cannot handle monsters, monster advancement, templates, or psionics. Having said that, they are planning to have these features available in their next major update.
Amaril 05-03-07, 10:03 AM	I've agreed with Delirium before on the Hero Lab issue, and I have to say my opinion on that hasn't changed (see sig for link and my own sparkling endorsement). Good stuff, no doubt about it. If you're particularly determined to get ETools I'd just take Darkwind up on his offer, but there's a lot of options out there, so it wouldn't hurt to search around. Out of curiosity, what is it about HeroLab that is so comepelling? I tried the demo, but it seemed to be difficult to create certain classes. I don't recall the details of that experience, though.
Birmy 05-03-07, 02:50 PM	Out of curiosity, what is it about HeroLab that is so comepelling? I tried the demo, but it seemed to be difficult to create certain classes. I don't recall the details of that experience, though. What classes were you having trouble with? I've added a couple of custom classes myself. The editing tutorial demystifies a lot of the more intimidating aspects, and some of it is a bit confusing (the whole linkages/bootstrapping process), but overall once you twig to the conventions of it it becomes a much more organic process. Anything psionics-based would be difficult (it looks like it's one of the few remaining aspects of the SRD not in there), but I found creating classes to be much easier than I at first thought. You may want to demo the most recent version (I think 1.1c?) as they've really added quite a lot even in the last couple months. As for what I like about it... I dunno, I think that for me about 99% comes down to the interface. I went on a tear a while back, DLing as many different character generators as I could, and while, sure, a lot them are pretty similar, that was the one I kept coming back to when I needed some quick NPCs or whatever. Most of the other ones seemed made by programmers and not designers, if you follow me, so it made the whole process feel more complicated than it needed to be. I'm not interested in the number crunching and conolutions of the game, so I'm not going to seek it out. Easy as hell to use, customized items and editor for your own material, an in-game function, and data files are imminent for non-d20 systems... what's not to like? A lot of people are used to PC Gen or ETools or whatever, but coming at it cold and without that stubborn inertia that makes people cling to whatever they've been using for years, it hasn't been much of a contest.
delirium 05-04-07, 03:48 AM	Out of curiosity, what is it about HeroLab that is so comepelling? I tried the demo, but it seemed to be difficult to create certain classes. I don't recall the details of that experience, though. The last few updates to Hero Lab have focused heavily on improving the editing process. Adding custom content is quite easy now. It wasn't hard before, but there were definitely rough edges in earlier releases that could be troublesome at times. Fortunately, those seem to have been addressed. Our D&D group has thus far added a variety of classes, feats, skills, etc. From a usability standpoint, Hero Lab was clearly designed with the user in mind, which certainly is not the case for some of the tools I've tried. The UI is intuitive and the visual feedback prompts me through character creation while also flagging anything that's invalid. I don't have to think about dependencies, restrictions, or limits. I can simply focus on creating the character while letting the computer do all the work. I've also found the convenience of the in-play support really helpful, both when playing a game and when running a game. Hero Lab cuts down on the bookkeeping, such as effects like Bull's Strength, poison, etc. It also cuts down on how often my group has to refer to the books during the game for details like ranges and durations - just mouse over the info on the laptop for instant answers. Those are the features that stand out for me. I not going to claim that Hero Lab is perfect by a long shot - I could quickly come up with a list of things I'd love to see added or tweaked. But, based on my personal criteria, it's the best tool that I've tried (and I've tried most of them).
TheGreenGriffon 05-11-07, 10:14 PM	If you can buy stuff Online E-Tools and different modules from the prgram can be found here: http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/
Amaril 05-11-07, 10:26 PM	If you can buy stuff Online E-Tools and different modules from the prgram can be found here: http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/ CMP no longer has the license to sell e-tools or its datasets.
Aaron Highcolor 05-21-07, 07:01 PM	I just checked around, if you want the original disc, you can simply search for "Dungeons and Dragons E Tools" on your' browser and you will find seveal ways to get it as a download. Feel free to send me an AIM message if you want to talk about the program as I have a fully updated version with lots of data sets and I can give you my account of how it works as well as some insight on getting it working for you. Which updates do you have?