Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 01-12-06, 01:21 PM	Check out this text about D&D: Dungeons and Dragons is a tragic and tangled subject. It is essentially a feeding program for occultism and witchcraft. For Christians, the first scriptural problem is the fact that Dungeons and Dragons violates the commandment of I Ths. 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Much of the trappings, art, figurines, and writing within D&D certainly appears evil-to say the least of it. On top of that, the second issue is that the materials themselves, in many cases, contain authentic magical rituals. I can tell you this from my own experience. I was a witch high priest (Alexandrian tradition) during the period 1973-84. During some of that period (1976-80) I was also involved in hardcore Satanism. We studied and practiced and trained more than 175 people in the Craft. Our "covendom" was in Milwaukee, Wisconsin; just a short drive away from the world headquarters of TSR, the company which makes Dungeons and Dragons in Lake Geneva, WI. In the late 1970's, a couple of the game writers actually came to my wife and I as prominent "sorcerers" in the community. They wanted to make certain the rituals were authentic. For the most part, they are. These two guys sat in our living room and took copious notes from us on how to make sure the rituals were truly right "from the book," (this meaning that they actually came from magic grimoires or workbooks). They seemed satisfied with what they got and left us thankfully. Back in 1986, a fellow appeared on The 700 Club who was a former employee and game writer for TSR. He testified right on the show that he got into a wrangle with the management there because he saw that the rituals were too authentic and could be dangerous. He protested to his boss and was basically told that this was the intent—to make the games as real as possible. He felt conscience-stricken (even though he was not a Christian at the time), and felt he had to resign from the company. Now, the question becomes—if a person "innocently" works an authentic ritual that conjures up a demon, or curses someone; thinking that they are only playing a game-might not the ritual still have efficacy? I think we know the answer to that question. If you play at shooting your friend in the head with what you think is an unloaded pistol and don't know a shell is in the chamber, is your friend any less dead because you were playing? People need to understand that God's universe runs on laws no less real in the spiritual realm than the laws of physics that propel a bullet out of a gun-and those laws are just as irreversible. God says that if you tamper with magic and the occult, you are stepping out from under His will and His protection (assuming you are a Christian). If you are not a Christian, then you are REALLY playing with fire. Some verses which clearly teach this are found in Exod. 22:18, Lev. 19:31, Lev. 20:6, Deut. 18:10, 1Sam. 15:23, 2Kgs. 21:6, Is. 8:19, Gal. 5:20, Rev. 21:8, Rev. 22:15. Deadly Games? To quote an old proverb, "Though the boys throw stones at the frogs in sport, the frogs die in earnest." Just because the people playing D&D think they are playing a game doesn't mean that the evil spirits (who ARE very real) will regard it as a game. If you are doing rituals or saying spells that invite them into your life, then they will come-believe me! We have prayed with enough people our age and younger who were former D&D fans, and they were totally in bondage to it. This brings us to other unsavory aspects of the game. One pro-D&D psychologist wrote that "There is hardly a game in which the players do not indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery."1 In fact, the Dungeon Master's Guide gives the celebrated Adolph Hitler as an example of a real historical person that exhibited D&D charisma! The values contained in the game are, at the very best, "might makes right." Additionally, much of the game contains overtones that reek of illicit sex and sexual violence. For example, the cover of one D&D supplement, called Eldrich Wizardry, shows a naked woman reclining on an obviously satanic ritual altar. This tragic scene is compelling because it is really what is done in genuine satanic groups all over the nation.2 It is extremely sado-masochistic because the fate of such a woman is to be either raped, gang-raped, tortured or sacrificed to a demon god. This kind of imagery can be very provocative and seductive to adolescent males or even adults. Additionally, male characters in the game often try to seduce female characters; and references abound to things like venereal disease and satyriasis (a male condition of permanent sexual arousal). Can these sorts of things be appropriate for Christians or even for any decent person of whatever faith? Do-It-Yourself Brainwashing Additionally, Fantasy-Role-Playing (FRP) games like D&D do employ brainwashing techniques: Fear generation-via spells and mental imaging about fear-filled, emotional scenes, and threats to survival of FRP characters. Isolation-psychological removal from traditional support structures (family, church, etc.) into an imaginary world. Physical isolation due to extremely time-consuming play activities outside the family atmosphere. Physical torture and killings-images in the mind can be almost as real as the actual experiences. Focus of the games is upon killings and torture for power, acquisition of wealth, and survival of characters. Erosion of family values-the Dungeon Master (DM) demands an all-encompassing and total loyalty, control and allegiance. Situational Ethics-any act can be justified in the mind of the player, therefore there are no absolutes of right or wrong; no morality other than "point" morality needed to ensure survival and advancement. There are no win-win situations and good forces seldom triumph over evil forces. Religion-values and belief systems (see below) are restructured from traditional Judeo-Christian ethics (which most people in Western culture adhere to) to belief in multiple gods and deities. Players align themselves with specific deities they select; patron deities are strongly urged. These are not fantasy deities, but are drawn from genuine ancient religions and beliefs! Only occult gods are included. In addition, defilement is urged in many ways, such as excrement or urinating to "defile a font." Loss of Self-control-authority over self is surrendered to the DM. Depending on the personality and ego-strength of the player, this loss can be near absolute. Degradation-pain and torture are heavily involved in sadistic, sexual situations that graphically appeal to visceral impulses. Much of the material (as mentioned above) is well into pornographic areas and stresses the defilement of innocence.3 A Clash of World Views! This is another, broader issue here. The values of the game are not only pro-violence and death; they also entrain the player in an entirely different way of looking at life: what is called by anthropologists the "Magical World View(MWV)." This MWV is far outside the cultural norms of most societies, and certainly outside the realms of Biblical values. Let me explain: The MWV teaches that there exists in the universe a neutral force, like gravity, which is magic. In this worldview, there is no sovereign God; but rather the universe is run like a gigantic piece of machinery. Magic's application is the understanding of how to manipulate the universe to get what you want. The analogy would be of putting a right coin in the slot of a vending machine and pushing the button. You automatically get your candy-assuming you used the right coin and pushed the right button. The MWV is like that. If you know the right technology (spell, ritual, incantation, etc.) the universe must respond-just like the light must go on if you flip the switch. It is automatic, and scientifically repeatable. The Judeo-Christian Worldview (i.e. from the Bible, and held by most cultures in the Western world to some degree) teaches, on the contrary, that the universe is in control of a sovereign Person, God. To get "results," He must be asked. Thus, it is more like a child going up to a parent and asking for candy, than getting it from a vending machine. The parent may say "yes," "no," or "Wait till later." Similarly, in the Bible, there is no way to automatically manipulate God to get what you want, because He is an omnipotent Person. Additionally, God says that magic is deep and abominable sin (see above). Now obviously, these two worldviews cannot exist in the same moral universe. Either one is true and the other false or vice-versa. Thus, one cannot be a Christian and believe in the MWV and not be some sort of hypocrite or deceived person. The reason is that in the "universe" of Dungeons and Dragons magic is neutral, and can be used by "good guys" or by "bad guys." It is like "The Force" in the Star Wars movies. This magical morality pervades D&D, and it is utterly in opposition to the Word of God and even common sense. Now the question becomes, can a person play the game without subscribing to the worldview? It is possible, but considering the high level of emotional and intellectual commitment that the game requires, is that really realistic? D&D is not like chess or Monopoly. It is a game that engages the whole person at deep levels, and it can last months if well-played. How can a person, Christian or not, immerse themselves in a reality view so deeply and not have it impact the rest of their lives? This is difficult to imagine, especially considering the highly demonic and magical content of much of the game. As the saying goes, "if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas." As the apostle Paul warns us, (1Cor. 15:33) "Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners." If games and manuals which extol black magic, rape, sado-masochism, murder and violence are not "evil communications," then I do not know the meaning of the terms! A D&D "Hall of Shame" This provides us with a spiritual explanation of why the following tragic litany of evil keeps growing around players of Dungeons and Dragons. The psychological explanation buttresses this as well, for we now understand the D&D can readily be a form of mind-control which also uses real occult techniques to foster possession by evil spirits. The "Freeway Killer," Vernon Butts, who committed suicide in his cell in 1987 while being held as a suspect in a string of murders was an avid D&D player.4 D&D player (14 years old) commits suicide by hanging, 1979, name withheld by parents' request. D&D player (17 years old) Michael Dempsey, Lynnwood, WA. suicide by gunshot wound to the head, 5/19/81. Witnesses saw him trying to summon up D&D demons just minutes before his death. D&D player (? years old) Steve Loyacano, Castle Rock, CO., suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning, 10/14/82. Police report satanic writings and a suicide note liked the death to D&D. D&D player (21 years old) Timothy Grice, Lafayette, CO., suicide by shotgun blast, 1/17/83. Detective reports noted, "D&D became a reality. He thought he was not constrained to this life, but could leave [it] and return because of the game." D&D player (18 years old) Harold T. Collins, Marion, OH., suicide by hanging, 4/29/83. Collins was noted to be "possessed" by D&D as if he were living the game. D&D player (16 years old) Daniel Erwin, Lafayette, CO., murder by brother's shotgun blast to head, 11/2/84 (right after Halloween). Death was apparently the result of a death pact as part of the game. D&D player (12 years old) Steve Erwin (see above) suicide by gunshot, 11/2/84. Detective report: "No doubt D&D cost them their lives."5 D&D player (no age given) Joseph Malin, Salt Lake City, UT., pled guilty to first degree murder 3/2/88 and was sentenced to life in prison. He killed a 13 years old girl while acting out the fantasy-role game. The girl had been raped, her throat cut, and she had been stabbed twice in the chest. Police said his "violent urges were fed by 'extreme involvement in the fantasy role-playing game Dungeons and Dragons.'"6 D&D player (14 years old) Sean Sellers was convicted of killing his parents and a convenience store clerk in Greeley, Oklahoma (1/11/87). He is the youngest inmate of death row in the country as of this writing (22 now). His involvement in hard-core Satanism began with D&D, according to his own testimony. Praise the Lord, he is now a Born Again Christian!7 D&D player (14 years old) Tom Sullivan, Jr. got into Satanism and ended up stabbing his mother to death, arranging a ritual circle (from D&D) in the middle of the living room floor and lit a fire in its midst. Fortunately, his dad and little brother were awakened by a smoke detector; but by then, Tom, Jr. had slashed his wrists and throat with his Boy Scout knife and died in the snow in a neighbor's yard.(1/19/88, Amarillo, TX.)8 Of course, just like everything else, some people (young or otherwise) will say, "Those people were just weird or losers to begin with. I'm too together to fall into stuff like that. It's just a game!" Yeah, and an H-bomb is just a firecracker! Like the people who think they can play around with crack or pre-marital sex and not get burned by death, AIDS or pregnancy, the person who thinks they can mess with D&D without getting burnt is whistling in the dark. The evidence is definitely stacked against them! The game is too carefully crafted a trap for many people to elude. Conclusions Quoting Dr. Thomas Radecki MD, a psychiatrist at the University of Illinois School of Medicine: "The evidence in these cases is really quite impressive. There is no doubt in my mind that the game Dungeons and Dragons is causing young men to kill themselves and others. The game is one of non-stop combat and violence. It is clear to me that this game is desensitizing players to violence and also causing an increased tendency to violent behavior."9 Thus, in my mind, and in the minds of most who have come out of this background as I have (occultism and Satanism); there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell. No Christian or sane, decent individual of whatever faith really should have anything to do with them. They are insulting D&D, what else do we have to sy?
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 01-12-06, 01:22 PM	My god, check this out: Can Christians Play D&D? Author Says No! Issue Date: July/August 2002 As a Christian, would it be appropriate for you to participate in a role-playing game with friends where each of you imagines a scenario involving a variety of sexual activities including fornication, adultery and homosexuality? There would be no actual touching between the players or any nudity. The activities would all be in the imagination but each player would be assigned a character to role play and the progress of the game would be guided by one "accomplished" player using printed instructions. The goal of the game would be to see who could obtain the most erotic pleasure. Anyone who knows anything about the Bible, recoils in horror at such a suggestion. Why? Because we immediately recognize that this "game" would quickly enflame the powerful sex drives of the players, planting suggestions in their spirits that God condemns. Addicts to the role-playing game, Dungeons and Dragons, (D&D) would argue that this is an unfair analogy. They would argue that D&D gaming is purely for fun and fantasy. "But it's only a mind game!!!" So, does it matter to God what happens in our minds? Jesus said that "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." the Old Testament prophets frequently charged Israel with "evil imaginations." Obviously, what goes on in our hearts is important to God. William Schnoebelen, author of several books and articles on occult witchcraft, says this is a suitable comparison. Since D&D is rooted in magic, Schnoebelen describes magic as a "kind of spiritual lust...It is, however subtle, an itch for power. Magic, at its root, is about power and about rebellion. It is about not liking how God runs the universe and thinking you can do a better job yourself." "This is not just chess, football or bridge. This is a game that envelops the player in an entirely different fantasy world in which the power of magic and violence is pervasive. It is a game with a distinct and seductive spiritual worldview that is diametrically opposed to the Bible. "Yes, sorcery appears in the Bible. But it is NEVER in the context of a good thing to do. It is always presented as something dangerous and utterly contrary to the will of God," says Schnoebelen. Sexual lust and lust for power are both products of man's carnal nature. The Old Testament is full of examples of kings who let power go to their heads. Saul, Solomon and even David spurned God's laws and tried to run things their own way. The Bible pulls no punches in describing God's opinion of their actions. Who are we to think we can play out games that enflame our carnal lust for sex or power and not be likewise judged. It is clear in Scripture that God cares about our thought life. We are to keep our hearts "with all diligence" for "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." How can we "go and make disciples" if our hearts are filled with powerful images of murder, spell casting, magic and sorcery? For more information, read Read William Schnoebelen's original article on D&D. Search for more articles on this subject Home Page ©1984-2006 Chick Publications, Inc. All rights reserved. Some portions of *************** are copyrighted by others and reproduced by permission,. as indicated by copyright notices on individual pages.
Roxlimn 01-12-06, 01:37 PM	The absolute best way to battle these hate-filled litanies is to ignore them and disprove them in your daily life. I will now follow this advice and refrain from further bumping this thread. You should, too.
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 01-12-06, 01:43 PM	I dont wan to make people hate me.. I was jus too insulted by this!!! People MUST know what Cristian think about D&D!!
CuttinCurt 01-12-06, 02:01 PM	Should anyone even try to tackle all that. Perhaps a small bit of light on the situation. Does AD&D make people shoot themselves... (NO) Does AD&D make people act out sexual scenes or make them imagine sex.. (NO) Does AD&D make people go through the ritual of summoning a demon... (NO) All these things you present in your diatribe fall onto the people who are DM'ing and/or playing. It is thier demented idiocy that causes them to create a game where these imaginary situations are present. How many teenage boys commit suicide because girls wont give them the time of day? Or the girls treat them horribly in school and embarrass them...? I don know. I am sure there are some. Do we jump on the cheerleaders and smack them around for treating them bad? nope. Do we say to the popular girls that they were personally responsible for the death of that kid who they mistreated with words? Nope. So we should not jump on D&D for kids who create the type of D&D game you describe in your presentation. I have never been a part of a group that plays sexual things out, or that is evil in heart and summons demons, or even yet, get attached to a character so much that if it dies in game, I go and end my own life. These things are ludicrous to blame on a game when the blame should go on the people who play it. LEts stop passing the buck here. The "Freeway Killer," Vernon Butts, who committed suicide in his cell in 1987 while being held as a suspect in a string of murders was an avid D&D player.4 All these people should be blamed, not D&D . They killed themselves, not D&D. They murdered others, not D&D. They are the idiots. They made a choice, they deserve what they got do you know why???? Because they made a decision to kill, wether it was someone else or themselves. Colombine HighSchool was attacked by kids who played DOOM. Did doom kill those students... nope. The two boys did, and they deserve what they got. Not Doom. Lets get these things straight. Lets be a little more realistic here. If your son or daughter hangs around people that are of ill repute, and they start acting like them and getting into trouble, is it thier fault or your son/daughters? You are right, it is your sons or daughters fault becasue they made a decision. Bad.. yes. But they made the decision. Lets get this right and stop putting the blame on Evil D&D for all mans ills. CC And yes, christians can play ad&d. They just have to find good and moral players like themselves that will not bring into play morally ambiguous situations. Is it difficult? Sure, but it can be done. The reason you dont hear about this stuff is because it is so much easier to sin than it is to not. But if you like to RP, you can play D&D as a christian, even though it has a tag of being demented or religeously unacceptable. God still blesses christians who play. I have seen it, and through d&d I and my buddy have brought 7 sinners to repentance that now serve the Lord Jesus Christ. I have played this game for over 12 years, and it is nice to know that I have over 500 souls that were saved by one of these converts on my account. He is a youth pastor/evangelist and God is blessng him greatly. and I led him to the Lord. Why? Because I showed that I was different and that I had a relationship with God that out shined anything D&D could put on it. CC
Rocketboy13 01-12-06, 02:06 PM	These arn't really christian christians, these are crazy christians. Demons are not real, therefore it does not matter whether you summon them or not, there arn't any to come. Curses arn't real, you cannot curse someone in a magical sense. Since any sane person comes to the above conclusions with very little thought, these people must either be not thinking, or not sane. Ignore them, they are not worth your time.
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 01-12-06, 02:08 PM	Hey!! I dint said D&D was evil, i just gave you taste of what such person can say about rpg!!!Beware, they will do everything to stop us from doin RPG!! These guy are just Crazy!!! We just have to do somthin!!! Here is some maother think: “A fantasy role-playing game which uses demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, satanic type rituals, gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning, necromantics, divination and other teachings. There have been a number of deaths nationwide where games like Dungeons and Dragons were either the decisive factor in adolescent suicide and murder, or played a major factor in the violent behaviour of such tragedies. Since role-playing is typically used for behaviour modification, it has become apparent nationwide (with the increased homicide and suicide rates in adolescents) that there is a great need to investigate every aspect of a youngster’s environment, including their method of entertainment, in reaching a responsible conclusion for their violent actions.10 Isnt it awful? I hate when they say so!!
Lina_Inverse 01-12-06, 02:13 PM	When christians follow the words of there own god, then maybe ill lend them an ear. However way too many christians throw out half the bible. Im not too worried what the crazy ones say.
Vvornth 01-12-06, 02:14 PM	Hey!! I dint said D&D was evil, i just gave you taste of what such person can say about rpg!!!Beware, they will do everything to stop us from doin RPG!! These guy are just Crazy!!! We just have to do somthin!!! What we will do is to keep gaming while these loons keep ranting. By giving them attention you are playing into their hands. First and last post by me in this thread.
Rake 01-12-06, 02:15 PM	:rolleyes: This Game Is Fantasy The action of a Dungeons & Dragons game takes place in the imaginations of the players. Like actors in a movie, players sometimes speak as if they were their characters or as if their fellow players were their characters. These rules even adopt that casual approach, using "you" to refer to and to mean "your character". In reality, however, you are no more your character than you are the king when you play chess. Likewise, the world implied by these rules is an imaginary one.
Vacerious 01-12-06, 02:22 PM	Hey!! I dint said D&D was evil, i just gave you taste of what such person can say about rpg!!!Beware, they will do everything to stop us from doin RPG!! These guy are just Crazy!!! We just have to do somthin!!! Skritz: A friend of mine once said, "Sometimes, the best revenge you can exact on someone is to simply succeed." Go ahead and play D&D, but don't let it consume your life totally. Stay in school, make good grades, and get a good-paying job. Then, while you're raking in a six-figure income, they will only have their crappy TV show and a stupid rant in some overlooked church newsletter. Besides, like its been said before, these people are crazy, not to mention hypocritical. While I haven't memorized my Bible lately, I'm pretty sure the premise of the New Testament is that "Jesus forgives all sins." Hence, all of their arguments that playing D&D is a sin just got blown all to hell. As its already been said, don't let their foolish arguments get to you.
CuttinCurt 01-12-06, 02:35 PM	No one is perfect. We all know that. So why debate it. We all do make decisions. Those decisions define who we are inside. The phrase, "Dont tell me... show me." Is as true as ever when confronted with D&D as a christian. I make decisions everyday. Some good, some not. But I do not blame D&D for the bad ones. I blame myself for being stupid and not thinking before I make an action. How an RP game can catch so much hell I do not know. I never heard anyone bashing me for playing StarWars RPG. I was a Jedi using the force. Surely I am a heathen for imagining using a pagan form of supernatural power in a game. Where are all the Christians bashing me about that. I can openly state that I play Starwars rpg in church. Why cant I say AD&D? They use the same form of inagination. Anyway, that is what I think.... CC
kallisti23 01-12-06, 02:36 PM	It is obvious to me that the writer of this article knows nothing about D&D or the occult. I have been playing D&D since the early eighties and I have actually read several of the old grimoires, including the Solomonic Cycle of Grimoires, Agrippa, the Abremelin magic, and the infamous Grand Grimoire and I am intimately familiar with the rituals of magic and I can say from personal experience that the spells in D&D in no way resemble these rituals. It really burns me up when people use the holy scriptures to justify bigotry like that we see in this article.
CzarGarrett 01-12-06, 02:41 PM	Yes, we who play D&D are evil. Satan worshipping, baby eating, necrophiliacs, who engage in bestiality and other sexual deviancies while we chant evil words to our dark lord. One day, we will come to your house, rape your dog, sacrifice your wife, and eat your cheetos. And there is nothing you can do to stop us. [/sarcasm] :nonono:
Edymnion 01-12-06, 02:46 PM	Okay, I'm now taking bets on how many more posts get made to this thread before its locked. I'm starting the pot with 10 more posts. And these are on-topic posts, so no stuffing the thread just to raise the posts to win! :P But seriously, where's the clicker?
Kyuketsukiouji 01-12-06, 03:16 PM	Yes, we who play D&D are evil. Satan worshipping, baby eating, necrophiliacs, who engage in bestiality and other sexual deviancies while we chant evil words to our dark lord. One day, we will come to your house, rape your dog, sacrifice your wife, and eat your cheetos. And there is nothing you can do to stop us. Well, that's not true. He could sell the dog.
celtredleg 01-12-06, 03:31 PM	Just which spells are authentic?? I have been playing since the late 70s and I have yelled "FIREBALL" countless times, and have yet to even produce a small amount of smoke, much less any flame. Same thing with the supposed rituals. I have yet to see a single ritual in any TSR or WOTC book on how to summon a real anything. Not one. I want to know what page they are on in which book. I have yet to find any.
Kyuketsukiouji 01-12-06, 03:45 PM	Just which spells are authentic?? I have been playing since the late 70s and I have yelled "FIREBALL" countless times, and have yet to even produce a small amount of smoke, much less any flame. Same thing with the supposed rituals. I have yet to see a single ritual in any TSR or WOTC book on how to summon a real anything. Not one. I want to know what page they are on in which book. I have yet to find any. Well obviously, those of you who haven't be initiated into the deeper mysteries don't get to buy the real books, you know. It's not like you can pick up true evil off the shelves at Amazon. You need to prove you're worthy of power. As for me, I've been dominating my relatives and mating with demonesses for years... :shifty:
KangTheCallipygian 01-12-06, 03:50 PM	This thread's destined to be locked. This thread always gets locked. I can't believe this thread hasn't been locked yet, much less that there'll be 10 more posts in before it happens. We've known about these nuts for decades now (weirdos who believe D&D causes people to kill themselves or harm others in some way, that is - I'm in no way referring to followers, crazed or otherwise, of any particular real-world religion), and it hasn't stopped us from enjoying our authentic demon-summoning rites... er... I mean favorite harmless game of pencils and polyhedra. Well, I think it might have gotten my school's weekly lunchtime D&D club shut down back in middle school, roughly 20 years ago when I was in 7th grade. So we ended up playing at lunch anyhow, only more than once weekly and without any teacher supervision. :smirk: I still game with some of these guys, and they're all as sane as ever if not moreso, FWIW. It was the whole Mazes and Monsters thing, back when M.A.D.D. stood for Mothers Against Dungeons and Dragons instead of M.A. Drinking and Driving (I'm pretty sure there really was such an organization - I'd ask if anyone else remembers this, but the thread will no doubt be locked before I ever hit 'Submit'). But that was during the 5 minutes or so in the mid-80's when these kooks were briefly considered newsworthy. Other than having to roll my eyes and assure my overprotective mother that I wouldn't jump out in front of a bus if my PC got a curse put on him or something, it was no big deal even then. These nuts are loud, but they're mostly harmless; certainly they're much less influential than they were back then. I definitely wouldn't panic over this BS; it's more comic relief than anything else. :rolleyes: Kang
DM Dave 01-12-06, 04:06 PM	These guys are kooks... period. The only problem is, for a time they made news, and even today I'll mention that I play D&D and have someone ask me if that's "devil worship." One of the absolute best rebuttles was written by a long time D&D player/ christian priest named Joseph Young. Here's the link: http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html Speaking of comical, one of the most humorous (but slightly scary as some people actually took this to heart) was Jack Chick's "Dark Dungeons" christian publication. I can't tell you how many times I've seen this handed out by actual christians who believe this is the truth. No wonder Bush gets to be president, Jeesh! For a few giggles, here's the link: http://***************/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp Have fun! Dave
thdougherty 01-12-06, 04:23 PM	"A D&D "Hall of Shame"" I bet all of those people drank milk too at some point in their lives... I bet some were even AVID milk drinkers... therefore, it's clear that drinking milk makes you do bad things. We must fight against the tyranny that is milk! :) heheehehe
Herald@Large 01-12-06, 04:38 PM	:ahem: Now you've done it, DM Dave. Posting the link to Chick *guarantees* this thread will be locked. :( Just so you know, D&D is not the only thing that gets this sort of "attention" from the rabid Bible-thumpers. The Society for Creative Anachronism (yes, I'm a very active member) gets more than its share of this nonsense. There are quite a few people who truly believe that "SCA" stands for Satanic Church of America. I wish I were joking. Wiccans are also subjected to this sort of discrimination. It seems to go in cycles: in a few months, the anti-D&D-ers wil find something else to whine about: rock music, nudity in movies, language on TV, violence in video games ...
Edymnion 01-12-06, 04:43 PM	"A D&D "Hall of Shame""Yup, and stop and think about it. In 30 years, thats all the nay-sayers can claim to link to D&D in the way of suicides. They dig out ANYTHING that could POSSIBLY be read as a link, and thats all they can find. All they're doing is proving that playing D&D makes you one of the least likely people to commit suicide on the PLANET! After all, 4 million people playing today, not counting those that stopped playing, in 30 years, and they come up with maybe 2 dozen suicides of people that played D&D? There are more people that die from tripping over their own feet every year than there are people who died as a result of playing D&D in all of recorded history!
Ectoplasmoid 01-12-06, 04:43 PM	Come on! You're just getting trolled. What, is the Moral Majority going to burn you at the stake? All you're doing is giving them rent-free space in your head.
Ivelios2 01-12-06, 04:57 PM	Ahh that was funny these threads always make me giggle. The thing i find funniest is every single one of these godnut posts always boils down to the same argument that D&D warps and hurts people i think we can all agree thats what they all pretty much boil down to. Does noone else notice that the bible alone has been the greatest cause of death destruction and warped people in the history of the world. The crusades, the hundred years war the most violent and horriable people in the world have been created because of the bible? They will inevetably respond to this the way religious nuts always respond to facts they dont like. My god is real cause the bible says so and he says your wrong and hes always right. I find this argument even more hilarious because while i do bealive in a loving god the bible is far from his words. First off anyone who says they know gods exact words and thoughts is i think quite obviously a liar and secondly the bible has been translated and altered so many times the bibles that exist today look nothing like the original. Oh yea by the way even the original bible was pieced together long after jesus died by some random guys who included and excluded whatever they wanted so it actually means nothing. But yea whatever your fantasy world beats our fantasy world cause your god says so hehe.
Varia 01-12-06, 05:00 PM	Fer the love of god ('scuse the phrasing! :P), why are you responding to an obvious and unskilled troll?? Sheesh. Go away, you scrofulus luggage. *Hugs* Varia
codemartin 01-12-06, 05:07 PM	Ok i suspect some people are analyzing a tad bit too much. i have played dnd for about 5 years, i have also studied witchcraft for 7(in case you want to know thats wicca, its a religion) anyway i see almost no spells in dnd that resembles any magic that I know, the only maybe thing is in the epic level handbook under ritural spells. if I accidently summoned a demon while playing dnd I would think cool not oh my god dnd is evil, I think people are too close minded to relize dnd is an RPG, a role playing game nothing more nothing less. and thats my two cents (im sorry if I insulted any wiccans,pagans are anybody else)
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 01-12-06, 05:23 PM	Yes, there are crazy people who happen to play D&D. Yes, there are crazy people who happen to do so within sight of crazy people who do not play D&D. Yes, these crazy people who do not play D&D get a bug up their rears about it. Simply put, you have one group of people incapable of differentiating between fantasy and reality, and you have another group saying it's the fantasy's fault instead of actually doing something about those poor people's preexisting mental issues before they go and do something idiotic like kill themselves. Or more simply, you have idiot parents who are realizing too late that it is THEIR fault that they didn't take Timmy to a shrink before he killed himself. Then, rather than dealing with their own personal responsibility, they decide to claim that there was absolutely nothing wrong with their little Timmy before he started playing D&D. Sure, violent video games and activities have been known to trigger violent behavior in some individuals. But the only link between those individuals is an inability to differentiate fantasy from reality. If someone goes nutters from playing D&D and they're older than 6, I'm sorry but there's something else going on there. That said, such people thrive on publicity. It is the only thing that keeps them going. It validates their position and sustains their false belief that what happened to their children and friends isn't their fault for ignoring warning signs of severe mental illness. Instead of validating their beliefs, ignore them. Eventually logic will take the place of bible-thumping irrationality and people will be able to actually tell religion apart from the inane opinions of some jackass ranting from a pulpit. EDIT: And I am absolutely amazed the thread stayed open long enough for me to type all of that..
Bruunwald 01-12-06, 05:32 PM	Well, nevermind that nobody in the game actually practices rituals and that the game does not give instructions on them. There are other clues that this guy is not being remotely honest about who and what he is/was. For instance, he says he was a satanist. Then he goes on to say that these designers came and watched their rituals and got info from ancient grimoires, and what-not. First of all, Satanists don't worship the Christian Satan, from the Bible. They worship a sort of nature or life essence; the desire to eat, drink, obtain wealth and pleasure, get (figurative) revenge, etc., which they call Satan just to **** other people off. Secondly, there are no real surviving grimoires of any real practicing of witchcraft and no evidence they ever existed. Then, on top of that, modern witchcraft and Wicca, as well as Satanism are all new creations whose texts are less than fifty years old and were published on modern printing presses. Then there's the matter of the first passage he quotes about not presenting the appearance of evil, which if you interpret it as he has (even just an illustration or miniature figure is wrong), makes any illustrated Bible a thing of evil, for its depictions of Satan's fall or of demons coming up in Revelations. Shall I go on? No, it's silly, This guy is full of what we all know he's full of. There's no case in the history of D&D where it was ever proved anybody died over it, because of it, or in relation to it. Its beneficial aspects are understood by anybody who plays it, and by some professional psychiatrists who don't. Furthermore, there's not a person on this planet who can say he truthfully knows the Bible itself is accurate or right. You can have faith it is, but you simply don't know. It, itself, is full of all sorts of mundanities to which morality is inexplicably attached (unless you study up on the cultures who wrote it and find out what they were offended by in their time). The only true test of what is evil and what is not, is to measure the intent of those engaged in the activity. Anything else is mental masturbation. There are plenty of good people on this Earth who haven't even read the Christian Bible, but from this guy's perspective, they are evil for it. That's absurd, offensive, arrogant and extremely presumptious. You know what? If I decide tomorrow that I want to worship Athena, and I run out and do a bunch of good works in her name, I am a good person and her "church" of one person, as it were, is a good one, represented by a good person doing good works. The Bible's restriction on other gods is a rule, not a moral issue (Lawful versus Good). People who don't get the distinction also equate tradition with morality, so that if your father and grandfather, etc., kicked squirrels to death every Easter, and you decide not to, you are somehow a "bad person" in danger from "true evil." Screw that. Nobody tells me they know the will of God or the Universe. I know it just as well and can say it back to them all day long. But I know good when I see it, and do it. And any god not capable of seeing good and knowing it, no matter what form it takes, is not worth my worship. The god I believe in, must necessarily be a far greater being than myself, and that means even more tolerant.
WhiteHarness 01-12-06, 05:43 PM	...the bible alone has been the greatest cause of death destruction and warped people in the history of the world. The crusades, the hundred years war the most violent and horriable people in the world have been created because of the bible? What kind of history have you been reading? The Crusades were a response to a plea for aid from the Byzantine Emperor after the Turks started gobbling up his land; the Bible did nothing to cause them. The Hundred Years War wasn't even a religious war; it was fought over the succession to the French throne. The Bible had nothing at all to do with the Hundred Years War. Finally, it wasn't just "some random guys" who pieced the bible together, it was either the Council of Laodicea or the Council of Rome, both in the Fourth Century, that decided which books went into the Bible and which were left out. I don't think anyone else at that time could have claimed more authority to do so, certainly not "some random guys"...
Wolfen Fenrison 01-12-06, 06:03 PM	Ah sweet flamebait, oh smooth, creamy trolls, see how well they are consumed by the masses. But to add my :twocents: before the thread will be locked (the jack chick link asured that), I'm a pagan and a D&D player, I'm also smart enough to tell the two apart, I have friends and family who play D&D and are avid church goers yet there the yhave no conflict with this or me for that matter. In short religion does not create stereotypes conserning D&D, stupidity and ignorance does.
Wolfen Fenrison 01-12-06, 06:03 PM	(double post)
Baerdog7 01-12-06, 06:08 PM	Darn, I guess I'll have to find something else to do since I can't play Dungeons and Dragons without going to Hell. Maybe I'll play d20 Modern, or Exalted, or Shadowrun, or Star Wars d20, or BESM, or World of Darkness, or Gamma World, or World of Warcraft d20....
Bulabase 01-12-06, 06:12 PM	For Christians, the first scriptural problem is the fact that Dungeons and Dragons violates the commandment of I Ths. 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Much of the trappings, art, figurines, and writing within D&D certainly appears evil-to say the least of it. If one reads no further than this, it seems quite reasonable to me.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 01-12-06, 06:37 PM	If one reads no further than this, it seems quite reasonable to me. Except most players play as GOOD characters who fight against evil. The books may have some content which may appear evil (demons, devils, aberrations, the undead, hags, etc.), but for the most part these are the reviled enemies of all who stand for good. Therefore, only DM's like myself are evil :P
Wolfen Fenrison 01-12-06, 07:10 PM	Geez are the WizOs sleeping or something? This thread should have been closed by now.
High Octane 01-12-06, 07:36 PM	For every suicide that D&D "caused" it has prevented 100. I know first hand.