Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bringer of autumn 08-03-05, 11:07 PM	:rofl: I found this on the web while looking for some battle grids. Link Removed. They say that D&D leads to teenage suicide and satanic rituals. Too bad they don;t know that satan doesn't exsist in the D&D world.... So, have your parents or anyone else ever harassed you or told you that D&D is evil? What stories have you heard related to this? Since I recently got in D&D, my mother keeps telling me that D&D made kids kill themselve's, which is when I laugh and just walk away. :D Discuss.
Edymnion 08-03-05, 11:16 PM	Yeah, we have. Linking to Jack Chick is also a no-no around here. Its considered to be hate speech. And it *ALWAYS* leads to religion bashing, every single time I have seen his name come up since the day I got here. Frankly, I'm wondering how you managed to link to it at all, I thought the auto-censor was set to disable any and all links to his site...
Bringer of autumn 08-03-05, 11:22 PM	Yeah, we have. Linking to Jack Chick is also a no-no around here. Its considered to be hate speech. And it *ALWAYS* leads to religion bashing, every single time I have seen his name come up since the day I got here. Frankly, I'm wondering how you managed to link to it at all, I thought the auto-censor was set to disable any and all links to his site... Really? I didn't know that.Sorry. But yeah, that guy is very ignorant.
Kojiro James 08-03-05, 11:31 PM	Also, everyone already knows he's crazy. You linked to nothing new.
akiir 08-03-05, 11:37 PM	well first off even though the people that comitted suicide were playing dungoens and dragons,most of them were reported depressed and they just wanted to blame it on the something so they blamed it on D&D so that guys has his opions we have ours that is all we can have so don't hate him for his/her opions just go on and note them. thanks akiir
Thorak 08-03-05, 11:37 PM	Since I recently got in D&D, my mother keeps telling me that D&D made kids kill themselve's, which is when I laugh and just walk away. :D Don't just laugh and walk away. That'll make her think you're just dismissing her, and that she might be right but you're too caught up to admit it. If she brings it up, ask her questions. What kids? When? If D&D made them kill themselves, how come neither TSR nor WotC has ever been sued successfully by a bereaved parent? When she stammers and can't answer you, tell her to either provide actual examples, and not baseless propagandist accusations that have never held any ground. If she'd doing it on religious grounds, feel out your minister/priest/pastor/whatever. 95% of them have sensible heads on their shoulders. If so, and they agree that D&D is a harmless game that some mentally ill people have occasionally used as an excuse, then get your mother to talk to them. It's pretty hard to maintain this kind of silliness when you can't back your opinion up with any evidence and the authorities of the field you're basing the claim on are disagreeing with you. Priests are far more often like Reverend Lovejoy than Ned Flanders. They might have faith, but they're not blind or stupid. It should also be clear that I'm not knocking religion, here. I'm knocking the very few ridiculous types within it. Just like Muslim terrorists do not represent the whole, or even the majority, of Islam. Or any extremist group which relies on propaganda and a lack of logic and reason to win people to their side represents the ideals within their propaganda. The enemy isn't religion, it's extremism. This is why people like Chick are dangerous; not because they're Christian, but because they're extremists. It doesn't matter what ideals they might purport to support, it's the extremism that is dangerous.
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon 08-03-05, 11:43 PM	My friends mom says he can't play D&D because it is evil. She doesn't dislike his friends who do play, and she lets him play Star Wars RPG with us. We are working on an article that will change her mind. Hopefully she will not shred it and tell him he can't be friends with us anymore. If she does I will go *cough*badparent*cough* whenever I see her. She won't though, and if we are really lucky, she might actually let him play.
Bringer of autumn 08-03-05, 11:52 PM	If parents and others would actually look into the game they will realize how stupid their aqusations are.
Edymnion 08-03-05, 11:55 PM	well first off even though the people that comitted suicide were playing dungoens and dragonsYeah. In 30 years, they've been able to link, what, 17 suicides to somebody that played D&D? Dude, as a group, we must have the lowest suicide rate on the PLANET. I mean, there are more PRIESTS that commit suicide every year than D&D players, accourding to their numbers!
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon 08-04-05, 12:10 AM	I mean, there are more PRIESTS that commit suicide every year than D&D players, accourding to their numbers! That is so going in my article.
Korhal_IV 08-04-05, 12:22 AM	That is so going in my article. http://www.rpg.net/sites/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html That link is to Michael A. Stackpole's debunking of B.A.D.D., an anti-D&D group, and also of various ill-meaning associates and falsified studies. Mr. Stackpole is a novelist and had never been employed by a pen-and-paper RPG company at the time of his writing, according to his resume. I suggest you read through it to collect further information, and I will PM you the link as well just to be sure you get it. The Pulling Report is a *great* resource (including those precise suicide statistics - as Endymion said, we've one of the lowest suicide rates in the world!). Be careful, though, as the Pulling Report is rather confrontational in style, and you may not want to put your friend's mother on the defensive. Be conciliatory and friendly! edit: My error. Mr. Stackpole has written Tunnels & Trolls products, I must've missed that in his biographical blurb at the bottom. The rest stands.
Thorak 08-04-05, 12:26 AM	Yeah. In 30 years, they've been able to link, what, 17 suicides to somebody that played D&D? And, of course, correlation is not causation. Just because people who do A are more likely to do B does not mean that A causes B. It might be B that causes A, or something entirely separate that causes both. Gee, a game that encourages escapist roleplay appealing to people so disillusioned with their own life they'd enjoy pretending to be someone else? I wonder if there might possibly be a third common cause that links enjoying D&D and suicide? Like having a hurtful life. It's not true for all D&D players, but I'm sure the appeal of escapist roleplay to someone like that is pretty darn obvious. But like I said; the biggest possible weapons you can bring to bear against these people are reason and knowledge. Demand examples. Discuss things rationally. Defuse any pleas to emotion by pointing them out as logically irrelevant. It's pretty hard to leap to ridiculous conclusions when you take things one small step at a time.
mniJam 08-04-05, 12:28 AM	No, it's true! I commited suicide just the other day. That was just shortly after my routine sacrifice to Bhaal.
weasel fierce 08-04-05, 12:41 AM	People blaming games are usually hiding their lack of ability to be parents
soulknife 08-04-05, 12:41 AM	i went to that guys site and read the article "stairway to hell" and i was laughing the whole time. im mean (demons taking over me) you should play this game so we may rule the world. woo what came over me. yeah that site is totally bogus. just so i can be on topic i asked my mom if i could play dnd and it took her a split second to give me an answer. i bet you cant guess the answer. :P
Koga:The ninja trick 08-04-05, 12:56 AM	The Koga was promised demonic conjurations, sacrifical hosts, kisses with beauitful women, and mass suicides. All The Koga got was some hairy geeks with poor hygiene and a jerk who almost drinks as much diet cola as The Koga does! (Almost.. :P )
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon 08-04-05, 12:57 AM	Korvhal IV, thank you i bet you cant guess the answer. Um..yes?
icedrake2002sr 08-04-05, 01:08 AM	Well, I've had an extensive imagination my entire life. Started real early. I even had an imaginary friend. My dad is actually, through no knowledge of his own, the one who got me hooked on fantasy roleplaying. This is not to say that he does it himself, but he did get me started on the Lord of the Rings Trilogy at an early age. He also regularly read me comic books. When I was less than 5 my grandmother, who taught English at a public school for many years, cemented my need to roleplay with an EXTREMELY old computer game called "Rogue" for the Tandy2000 (anyone else remember those?). From then on, I was hooked on RPGs. I bought a copy of the game Baldur's Gate when it first came out on PC. I LOVED that game dearly, and still play it on occassion. That was my first experience (YAY, level 1!!) with DnD. I approached my mom about possibly getting some of the core books, but she wasn't exactly "with" that idea. So, and I say this to my shame actually, I bought the boxed 3.0 starter set in secret. I knew deep down that the game wasn't bad, and I was sort of already playing the game with a few of my close friends anyway. Of course, this is back before I had any clue what a 4 sided, 8 sided, 10 sided, etc. die WAS. We had come up with our own rules using only d6s. But I finally got the starter set and my friends and I played. We loved it and have been hooked ever since. I told my mom about it after the first gaming session, sat her down and exlained things to her, and she was willing to accept that it wasn't going to destroy my soul. It DID help that she sent dad to sit and watch one of our games...He thought it was kind of funny, as he got there right as one of my friends was attempting to wrestle a green dragon (full grown, mind you) into submission and beat it senseless with an enchanted club. The point is that DnD in and of itself is only a game...A pencil, paper, books, and dice. Much like Monopoly or Chess. It all takes place in the minds of the players. Which can be a problem, as not everyone is as stable as they should be, having no sense of what is "real" and what is "fantasy". And a large part of the responsibility to teach this sense falls on the shoulders of the parents. I don't know if any of you reading this ARE parents, or will be in the future, but remember this...It is VASTLY important to let your children use their imaginations. It is even more important to have them know the difference between what happens there and what happens in the real world. Some of this responsibility also goes to the others that game with people who can't seem to grasp this fact. Help your friends and fellow gamers know WHEN TO STOP. There is a certain gaming company out there that has posted an "Inevitable Disclaimer" in the front of their books...I paraphrase the following from that... When you beat someone at Monopoly, you don't go out and foreclose on their home...Likewise, if you win at Battleship, it's not a good idea to go down to the harbor and throw molotovs at the ships...Know when to put away the dice, close the books, and call it a night...
Hairfoot 08-04-05, 01:14 AM	In an interview with Gary Gygax, he says the mother of one of the D&D suicide kids wrote to him, saying that her son was already on the brink and only held on for the last weeks because he looked forward to the game so much. Soon it will be Harry Potter witchcraft suicides, and the circus will start all over again.
Edymnion 08-04-05, 01:15 AM	The part I really love is Jack saying how D&D books have complete, accurate rituals for summoning demons and the like. You know, I must have gotten the censored versions or something, because I can't find a single one of them in my old D&D books! Damn censorship! I payed good money for these original books, and I don't see so much as the "Summon 41 Virgins" spell in it! What a rip off!
soulknife 08-04-05, 01:28 AM	i think its funny that his foot notes link to the article that was posted. and i also thought the part where he quoted the dieties and demigods book read the whole paragraph retard. bah extremists :rolleyes: man ive been playing dnd for quite a while now id say its about time for me to go balistic and have the sudden urge to kill. grrrrrrrr ill kill ya!! :P
Disturbed1 08-04-05, 01:29 AM	No, it's true! I commited suicide just the other day. That was just shortly after my routine sacrifice to Bhaal. Oooh, me too! Hey, anyone want the rest of my kool-aid? :P
soulknife 08-04-05, 01:34 AM	Hey, anyone want the rest of my kool-aid? :P playing dnd makes me really parched ill have some kool aid!!!
Edymnion 08-04-05, 01:51 AM	(all figures come from google) The average suicide rate in America is 12 per 100,000 people. The average suicide rate for priests is 7.5 per 100,000 people. B.A.D.D. (bothered about dungeons and dragons, the anti-D&D people) confirm approximately 7 suicides linked to D&D per year. Using B.A.D.D.'s estimation on the number of D&D players, 4 million (which also coincides with WotC's numbers, more or less): 7 people a year, out of 4 million players. Lets put that at the same scale as the other two. Divide both numbers by 40 to get the number of suicides attributed to D&D per 100,000 players. 4,000,000/40 = 100,000 7/40 = .175 So, there you have it. You are 42.8 times more likely to commit suicide by being a priest than a D&D player, and 68.57 times more likely to kill yourself if you are just an average Joe. At least, accourding to B.A.D.D. anyway ;)
q'afuu 08-04-05, 02:01 AM	Discuss. Or don't. I thought we left most of this behind us around the same time most people caught on to the fact that the mullet is really not a cool fashion statement. Then again, I'm a European. I've never experienced any persecution whatsoever due to my hobby (aside, perhaps, from some misguided fellow-hobbyists who didn't see the humour in my viruntly and incessantly making fun of their elf-worshipping ways :P ).
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon 08-04-05, 02:11 AM	Thanks Edymnion.*copys down*
Tigger062077 08-04-05, 08:47 AM	We are working on an article that will change her mind. A friend of ours was forbidden to play when he was younger. Mother very strong Catholic, and wanted the friend to be as well (long story). She forbade him to play, because she was convinced that it was a cult. He set about proving her wrong, wrote an atricle based entirely on Catholic doctrine, and even proved that the Church was more of a cult that DnD! (No, not bashing and please no one yell at me...I have nothing against any religions and wouldn't know a cult if it slapped me) :D Needless to say, she allowed him to play. Personally, I grew up religious and was taught that DnD was Satanic and evil. When I met my husband (and now DM), I had a hard time with it. For the longest while neither of us played...then I decided that I just couldn't go by what I had been taught as I has also been taught to question everything. So...I made him teach me how to play. He ran a one-person adventure, just to teach me the basics. :) Now...most of the time I like playing. I get burnt out easily, but that's just because of our group. An amusing side-note: My husband has taken his gaming gear with him when we've gone to my parents house (to read/write, etc). He showed my MOTHER what he was doing - and my mother sees it as basically story-telling. Which just amuses me greatly, as she was one of the ones teaching me it was BAD....EVIL.... LOL
SageAdvice666 08-04-05, 09:01 AM	When I first started playing D&D (2nd ed.) my parents didn't want me to either. They gave me the same spiel, "It's Satanic," etc. I finally went to the bookstore, bought the Player's Handbook (we had been using my friend's copy) and gave it to them. I said, "find me one thing in that book that shows me how to cast a spell or encourages Satanism in any way and I'll quit playing forever, otherwise, get over it." Surprisingly enough (and a credit to my folks), it worked. They realized it was just a game and told me to have fun.
Azual 08-04-05, 09:04 AM	ya know, alot of these posts reminded me of a lecture my paleontology teacher gave about how to side step christian fundamantalists and their quest to stamp out evolution in the name of their god. (I might also add that the streets ran ankle thick in jew and muslim blood in the name of this same christian god when they took over Jerusalem during the first crusade, but thats a different story) Anyhoo, she said was thus: Whenever they bring up something along that has no scientific basis, say 'prove it'. trust me, most of the crap those who believe in the dangerous side effects of D&D dredge up to prove their point is so baseless that its easier to laugh it off than to actually argue it. Plus lauging at them makes them go insane.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 08-04-05, 09:05 AM	The argument I always use when this crops up is as follows. Idiot: XYZ was a mass murderer/comited suicide/treid to summon a deamon! And He/she played D&D! Therfore D&D is evil! Me: XYZ also enjoyed Coca-Cola, and watchign sunstes. Therefore Coke and sunsets are evil!
Nurgan_the_drunked 08-04-05, 09:06 AM	(all figures come from google) The average suicide rate in America is 12 per 100,000 people. The average suicide rate for priests is 7.5 per 100,000 people. B.A.D.D. (bothered about dungeons and dragons, the anti-D&D people) confirm approximately 7 suicides linked to D&D per year. Using B.A.D.D.'s estimation on the number of D&D players, 4 million (which also coincides with WotC's numbers, more or less): 7 people a year, out of 4 million players. Lets put that at the same scale as the other two. Divide both numbers by 40 to get the number of suicides attributed to D&D per 100,000 players. 4,000,000/40 = 100,000 7/40 = .175 So, there you have it. You are 42.8 times more likely to commit suicide by being a priest than a D&D player, and 68.57 times more likely to kill yourself if you are just an average Joe. At least, accourding to B.A.D.D. anyway ;) Also worth noting the other demographics involved. During the main furore (sic, possibly not even a word) during the 80s, the main social group was teenage geeks (yes, yes stereotypes bad, but work with me), being those who were on the outskirts of the social group, typically men. I don't have the numbers, but I'd guess that was (and still is) amongst the most likely groups to commit suicide. It's not too surprising that a link could be drawn between the two, but a link, especially one so anecdotal, proves nothing of cause and effect.
CzarGarrett 08-04-05, 09:21 AM	If anything leadsto Satanic rituals and suicides, its Vampire: The Masquerade. Then again, its a lot of 'woe is me' Goths and outcasts of the outcasts who play that. So they've already got some strikes against htem.
Thorak 08-04-05, 09:21 AM	ya know, alot of these posts reminded me of a lecture my paleontology teacher gave about how to side step christian fundamantalists and their quest to stamp out evolution in the name of their god. (I might also add that the streets ran ankle thick in jew and muslim blood in the name of this same christian god when they took over Jerusalem during the first crusade, but thats a different story) Anyhoo, she said was thus: Whenever they bring up something along that has no scientific basis, say 'prove it'. trust me, most of the crap those who believe in the dangerous side effects of D&D dredge up to prove their point is so baseless that its easier to laugh it off than to actually argue it. Plus lauging at them makes them go insane. This is just as inane as the over-the-top extremist christians we're talking about. Of course they can't prove anything about their religion. That's why faith isn't science. Trying to enforce the scientific paradigm on religion is just as inane and narrow-minded as trying to enforce the religious paradigm on science. That said, the moment they get off the topic of faith and into provable, concrete things, like D&D, shoving a book in their face and demanding they show you the Satanism can work wonders, as SageAdvice666 suggested. Even if he does bear the number of the beast. Extremists are tools regardless of what ideal they claim to support. They're just as idiotic whether they're scientists or religious types. I could also suggest that if anyone starts poking their scientific noses into religion, ask them how life began, and if they think they know how, why haven't they been able to recreate it in a lab yet? I mean, it's not like it happened under conditions that can't be recreated, it happened here on Earth, right? Or get them to explain beauty in scientific terms. Definitive, not descriptive, ones. Golden ratio is descriptive; they know it's "pretty", but they have absolutely no idea why. Assuming that science explains everything is just as inane as assuming religion does. You're just trading God for a test tube. Neither has all the answers.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-04-05, 09:37 AM	(all figures come from google) The average suicide rate in America is 12 per 100,000 people. The average suicide rate for priests is 7.5 per 100,000 people. B.A.D.D. (bothered about dungeons and dragons, the anti-D&D people) confirm approximately 7 suicides linked to D&D per year. Using B.A.D.D.'s estimation on the number of D&D players, 4 million (which also coincides with WotC's numbers, more or less): 7 people a year, out of 4 million players. Lets put that at the same scale as the other two. Divide both numbers by 40 to get the number of suicides attributed to D&D per 100,000 players. 4,000,000/40 = 100,000 7/40 = .175 So, there you have it. You are 42.8 times more likely to commit suicide by being a priest than a D&D player, and 68.57 times more likely to kill yourself if you are just an average Joe. At least, accourding to B.A.D.D. anyway ;) That is just awesome. D&D players have a lower rate of suicide than non-players. :rofl:
Giant Turtle 08-04-05, 10:07 AM	Before I say this, I just want everyone to know that when I posted this, I was tired and had been up for 36 hours and was running off of 3 pots of coffee, so after that is said, I didn't take time to read all the articles, infact, I read 2... But as it was, I just wanted everyone to know (if not previously posted) that more people are killed over Monopoly, yes, the game with paper money and a cool little metal boat and hat for pieces, than any other game in the world every year. People go wacky and shoot eachother over boardwalk, I don't really see why, you'd think something like that would have gotten more attention then D&D, but oh well, I just thought everyone should know...
BeyondFated 08-04-05, 10:09 AM	Wait, wait, wait, wait? So DnD doesn't lead to satanic rituals? Well, darn! Now I need to tell Bob to cancle to order for the goat... Man! I want my money back! Bloddy false propoganda.
Giant Turtle 08-04-05, 10:11 AM	If anything leadsto Satanic rituals and suicides, its Vampire: The Masquerade. Then again, its a lot of 'woe is me' Goths and outcasts of the outcasts who play that. So they've already got some strikes against htem. HEY! Don't bash V:tM! I play it all the time and I am one of the happiest people on earth, bash LARP, thats the one that I don't like. Vampire is just like every other roleplaying game out there, it just has a darker feel. I don't care what you think, a piece of paper and plastic dice isn't any evilier than the next piece of paper with plastic dice! When you start acting it out, there's a problem, but I do know a few people who play LARP and aren't screwed up either, games just get bad reputations because of crowds they attract If you going to say Vampire is evil because it attracts Goths, then D&D is for the weak because it attracts Geeks, stop being so stereotypical, when you say stuff like that about one game, your being the same as people who bash D&D.
hazel monday 08-04-05, 10:48 AM	goths and geeks are really the same thing pal.don't feel too bad about it.
kam_Islash 08-04-05, 01:21 PM	I don't see how a fun game like Dungeons and Dragons could possibly drive anyone to kill themselves. Roleplaying is a great release. People who do it are less likely to be depressed. Oh and I don't buy the escapist thing. I chose thsi game because of the overwhelming amount of gameplay variety inherent in the rules. With a good DM, the fun is different every time you play.
CzarGarrett 08-04-05, 01:22 PM	HEY! Don't bash V:tM! ..... bash LARP, thats the one that I don't like. Every person I know who plays Vampire does it in LARP fashion. And they get far too into it.
weasel fierce 08-04-05, 01:33 PM	I dont know any vampire (or even WOD) player, who is either a LARP'er or a goth. If its a choice between LARP'ing a vampire planning political power struggles, or running around a wood, yelling "magic missile" with a foam sword... sign me up for the vampires. At least you can drink wine then :rolleyes:
kam_Islash 08-04-05, 01:39 PM	[QUOTE=Edymnion]The part I really love is Jack saying how D&D books have complete, accurate rituals for summoning demons and the like. QUOTE] Wait, how would he know what an accurate ritual is? Does he make a habit of summoning demons?
weasel fierce 08-04-05, 01:42 PM	It just struck me how amusing and hypocritical it is, on a thread talking about idiots blaming games for retarded things... to be an idiot blaming a game for retarded things...
Puritan13 08-04-05, 01:51 PM	goths and geeks are really the same thing pal.don't feel too bad about it. geek =/ goth I am a geek. I have never put on white makeup with black lipstick. Wouldn't think of it.
High Octane 08-04-05, 02:10 PM	In an interview with Gary Gygax, he says the mother of one of the D&D suicide kids wrote to him, saying that her son was already on the brink and only held on for the last weeks because he looked forward to the game so much. I stopped having suicidal thoughts shortly after I started playing D&D with a live group.
Edymnion 08-04-05, 02:18 PM	goths and geeks are really the same thing pal.don't feel too bad about it.Um, no, not really. I'm a geek. I think life is good and worth living, I have several friends that are in the police department/military (spreading their conformist values all over the place), and think its really tacky to wear all black. Geek != Goth
rbrt_Spade 08-04-05, 02:25 PM	well lets see a lot of ppl ive talked to on the forums/friends parents played dnd my mom played it in high school-it was her that got me into it.-read dragons books by weis & hickman + balders gate 1(about 4 years ago)(which she bought for me) wham* in the present got into fantasy own 3/4 of dl books + fr and many others my first D&D basic- my mom said-go head play!-have fun! now i play and am in high school and work-some of that goes to books i am a groovy D&D geek! play dnd and boxing,soccer,track,lifting-proud of my nerdhood+ computers i guess im a geeky jock
Aeolus91 08-04-05, 02:30 PM	My friend's parents are very, VERY strict Catholics, and his mother refuses to let him play DnD, citing its "Satanic influences"... Last time I went to see how he was doing, his FATHER was sitting in my friend's room, playing D&D with a bunch of his friends, I walked in, and he was like, "SHUT THE DOOR, DON'T LET MY WIFE SEE!!!" I was laughing my ass off after that one.
rbrt_Spade 08-04-05, 02:34 PM	thats good thier!
BloodGod 08-04-05, 03:40 PM	I always thought D&D was a sad reason to not off myself. Guess it's not that sad. I was a Satanist after I began playing D&D, but I didn't turn Satanist because of D&D. It was actually a lot of the bible-basher types that turned me Satanist, the same bible bashers that are anti-D&D. Also, I know quite a few Satanists. None of which play D&D or have ever tried it. Oh, and Aeolus, that story's great man. -BG
katarl 08-04-05, 04:39 PM	HEY! Don't bash V:tM! I play it all the time and I am one of the happiest people on earth, bash LARP, thats the one that I don't like. (annoyed grunt) To be honest, LARP and dnd (decent dnd anyway) are reasonably similar. You just replace a little bit of the imagination with physical actions, which for overweight introverts is no bad thing. Its little different from acting, since you are creating a character to play, and pretend to be them. The fun in it i suppose is beating up your friends without repercussions(with plastic i guess, but you can't have everything). Vampire the Masquerade is a bit strange, feeling as uncomfortable in the game as i do in a Vile Darkness campaign. Delving so deeply into evil doesn't seem to change people's actions as such (in my experience), but it does seem to make them that much more tolerant of those that do such perverse things. Is this so different to the self-proclaimed occult 'experts' that actually study the real thing, rather than its stereotype? Dnd obviously has a bad reputation. Among adults its geeky and escapist at best, or devil-worshipping and cult based at worst. Among the very young, it is considered childish to see adults or teenagers playing such things, since they equate it to LotR taken too far (like acting out a movie, similar to what many little children do, hence the legal warnings on certain childrens shows). Our base players are generally socially inept, highly intelligent, creative, mostly calm and physically (but not always)weak. Dms tend to have the same tendencies, but tend to have a greater desire to lead, and have marginally better social skills. In israel, dnd playing is considered a mark of mental instability, and dnd players cannot claim high security clearances. In china it is also deemed unhealthy by the state, although no formal action has been taken. Are we being affected by the images that are evoked in this game? Are we also being affected by our desires to play these imaginary beings? The main things that appeal most to dnd players are its escapism to a different world, where you are emotionally invulnerable, have no real problems or flaws and exciting things happen everyday, the fact that it is with your friends, allowing you time to get to know them without lengthy, awkward silence, and a common purpose. These things (emotional invulnerability, socialising and a common cause) are things that religion also offers, as does satanism. Therefore, one might surmise that the extremists are right, it is a threat to family values, since it encourages tolerance to others (both to the socially awkward players, and ingame). It reduces a reliance on otherworldly solutions to mundane problems (which, actually defeats satanism), since it gives vulnerable people access to an outlet, a role model for themselves, and friends (i know one person who relies entirely on dnd for friendly social interaction). Deep stuff. Did any of it make sense? I also have met satanists. Not one convinced me they were evil, just confused. These religious fanatics are no different. They put their trust in an otherworldly being, and give their lives to an abstract mesh of ideas, may it be family values, the bible or commitment to a force they have no understanding of. They are shooting blindly into an infinite expanse, and tie their whole being to it. If something ever convinced them that they were wrong (such as a great loss), then their whole life is shattered. Doubt is a good thing, since faith unchecked is not only worthless, but supremely arrogant. There is no worse sin than spiritual pride (according to CS Lewis), and there is no greater pride than telling the universe that it is entirely wrong, simply because a voice in you head, and a few poorly understood pages says so. Perhaps instead of condemning dnd, satanism and all other religious ideas, they might appreciate the fact that if they are wrong, then they may learn from them, and if they are right, then they have failed them, for their truth has offered them nothing.
Bruunwald 08-04-05, 04:46 PM	[QUOTE=Edymnion]The part I really love is Jack saying how D&D books have complete, accurate rituals for summoning demons and the like. QUOTE] Wait, how would he know what an accurate ritual is? Does he make a habit of summoning demons? Just the usual: He summons Michael Bolton ritually with a tuna fish sandwich and a bottle of Diet Coke. Up from the depths, cometh the Squealer. He doth ride naked in taxis and perch like a raven above his own displays at the Virgin Megastore!
Wiz_Eldrick 08-04-05, 04:56 PM	I'm just happy there are people with negative views of D&D. It was through these views I got started in the game. One of my mother's co-workers brought a large stack of D&D materials to work to toss into one of the trash bins there. Her son was "getting into D&D too much". My mother rescued the stack (a couple hundred dollars worth of mostly 2nd edition AD&D materials), and I've been playing ever since. Since then, I've had a friend marry his way out of the game (his wife ALSO didn't approve), and again, I rescued a couple hundred dollars in material. Now, if I could just find some poeple with some 3.5 books that are "too into D&D"...
Aeolus91 08-04-05, 08:11 PM	I'm just happy there are people with negative views of D&D. It was through these views I got started in the game. One of my mother's co-workers brought a large stack of D&D materials to work to toss into one of the trash bins there. Her son was "getting into D&D too much". My mother rescued the stack (a couple hundred dollars worth of mostly 2nd edition AD&D materials), and I've been playing ever since. Since then, I've had a friend marry his way out of the game (his wife ALSO didn't approve), and again, I rescued a couple hundred dollars in material. Now, if I could just find some poeple with some 3.5 books that are "too into D&D"... I got started when one of my friends found a PHB and the old "black box" set in his cousin's trash bin... He thought it was "wierd" and gave it to me instead of just chucking it. I was 7 at the time, and I've played and DMed ever since. Also, the kid who gave me the set has become an awesome DM and an incredible role-player, one of my favorite people to have in a gaming group.
Thorak 08-04-05, 09:43 PM	Oh and I don't buy the escapist thing. I chose thsi game because of the overwhelming amount of gameplay variety inherent in the rules. With a good DM, the fun is different every time you play. I wasn't trying to say that all D&Ders are depressed escapists. Just that escapism is an integral part of the game, and one that appeals to depressed people looking to get away from their real life for a bit. It's a correlation that has nothing to do with causation, nor is it a general statement on D&D players.
High Octane 08-04-05, 10:03 PM	Yes D&D is escapism. However, it is not depraved or harmful since for one thing you normally play different characters. Second, a large portion of the game is spent out of character. Third you have a ground of reality, namely your fellow players, so unless all of you are CLINICALLY insane, you should be anchored in reality. Finally, you have limited tangible aspects of the game, limited to miniatures and some writing and words, which makes it completely limited to the players imagination, which keeps reality in check. Not to mention the game follows a very abstract set of rules. Divine and Arcane magic are just the tip of the fantasy iceberg.
Monkey-Baller 08-04-05, 10:57 PM	Aren't some of the articles that are anti-DnD like 20 years old by now? I think two decades is long enough for the stupid inside people like Chick to die. And for the record I was hoping demons would posses me if i played DnD long enough. Mmmmm, demons.
draco2005 08-06-05, 02:19 PM	Well, D&D does not cause teens to kill themselves. To think that D&D causes this sort of thing is a nonsense, rubbish... To me, D&D is a fun game and it makes you think about how to solve a problem or two. It is really a good tool for doing math...all that adding and subtracting hps. By the way....there is not such as as Satans......they are made up by christians when they kill off the old religion.....the pagans.. Here is an interesting thing: what do you get when you spell "live" backward? And what do you get when you spell the word "LIVED"? I will let you sort that out.... If D&D causes people to kill each other, what about video games? Draco....
katarl 08-06-05, 04:12 PM	Oh and I don't buy the escapist thing. I chose thsi game because of the overwhelming amount of gameplay variety inherent in the rules. With a good DM, the fun is different every time you play. No escapism in dnd? Are you sure that you're thinking of the correct definition of the term? All entertainment, is by definition, escapism, and better gameplay merely means the escape is that much more complete. Even sports, in a way is an escape from reality (for those that are good at it anyway). Escapism is necessary for mental health, for no behaviour can be stopped, only channelled (like in thermodynamics) or moved from one thing to another. The part I really love is Jack saying how D&D books have complete, accurate rituals for summoning demons and the like. Heh, the man probably has a masters degree in occult practises as well, i find it hard to believe you can summon asmodeus by rolling a d20. It might be interesting to find out though... Yes, most of the heat on dnd is 20 years old now, although discussions still pop up on shows like the 700 club, talking about the occult influence on young minds, although it has been dwarfed by interest in the harry potter debate. Does any strong-minded christians that happen to play dnd wish to share their experiences? In mine, dnd does help memory, social skills and mathematical, as well as analytical ability, but does not increase chances of suicide, paranoia, or actual (as an unbeliever, i use that term loosely) demon summoning. I have noticed, however, that i, and many others, after extended (a year in my case, but yours is probably several times more) association with the products do change slightly, becoming more tolerant, less prone to judgementalism, and more rarely shocked by what others see as beyond disgusting. It does seem that the game makes you think more about the ethical ramifications of options, the needs and wants of people and makes you more aware of what villains actually do, and how. What do you think? I am, by nature, not a very pious person, nor particularly prone to suicidal thoughts. I have never tried to summon demons, or use magic in any form, for i know that it does not exist (wish it did though sometimes). Dnd has never made me even for a moment consider such things, and neither has it led me into a cult. Although i do know several cultists (poorly concealed, probably an attempt to get attention), satanists, suicidal, morally depraved and despicable people. Not one of them gamed before they became as such (most didn't at all), but it was their inclinations, the events and people that pushed them to become such. It was this overwhelming evidence (that dnd players actually have a lower suicide rate), that forced the court that MADD took WotC to, to pass no judgement at all. Some therapists actually use dnd to bring out a sense of confidence and assertiveness in a client. Because of this, it really annoys me that people like 'Jack' can claim moral superiority, when they are actually causing nothing but harm with their actions. It is the same people, as well who deny people basic human rights because of their lifestyle, and support obvious injustices, clear to everyone but themselves (although this is probably best left to another board, let alone thread). Aren't some of the articles that are anti-DnD like 20 years old by now? I think two decades is long enough for the stupid inside people like Chick to die. You're joking, surely?! Has racism died? Has fascism, or pagan practises? Things with no logical root can still live, for they offer a place to stand. You can never get rid of stupid, just as you can never be free of prejudice, or ignorance. There will always be a loud, if small minority. Okay, overly long, incensed rant over. PS: Oh yeah, what does britains second village mean? I saw it on someones post. Guessing its birmingham.
xver 08-06-05, 04:16 PM	If D&D causes people to kill each other, what about video games? Don't you know first person shooters are the main cause of gun violence in the world? Heck, gunpowder wasn't even mass produced unti Quake came out ... He he he ...
the black knight 08-06-05, 04:33 PM	Yes, D&D invented violence. It's well documented. Didn't you get the memo?
The_Battlemage 08-06-05, 04:52 PM	This is the best and most professional essay I've seen on the subject. Please enjoy. http://www.cale.com/paper.htm
Edymnion 08-06-05, 06:32 PM	Does any strong-minded christians that happen to play dnd wish to share their experiences?I've been known to read my Eberron Campaign Setting book in Sunday School waiting for my teacher to get there. And my class has been known to get off track for entire classes talking about the latest Harry Potter book. That kind of close mindedness and bigotry are not commonplace in the slightest. They're the church equivolent of the KKK. Extremists who refuse to listen to reason, and hold on to old hates just because they refuse to change.
Fabe 08-06-05, 06:35 PM	Funny story from a few days ago,me and some friends were sitting aroung our local comic store rolling up charaters for the old TSR marval superhero RPG when I spoted a paper on the bullitin board. On it was in big letter was D&D and a drawing of a dragon at frist I though it was maybe some one looking foir a group but then I saw the smaller writing which read "Just a game?" at which point I got a bad feeling, did some acully have the nerver to post anti-role playing propaganda ? I pulled it down and handed it to one of my freinds who took a quick read and confirmed it was Anti-D&D. I did'nt really bother to read it myself we riped it up and I when to throw it away and told the guy working that night that some one had the nerve to put it up, he just started to laugh and told us HE had placed it there about two weeks ago and was suprized we had just noticed it now. since it was just a joke we just laughed and when back to rolling our charaters.
katarl 08-07-05, 08:35 AM	Don't you know first person shooters are the main cause of gun violence in the world? Heck, gunpowder wasn't even mass produced unti Quake came out ... Yes, D&D invented violence. It's well documented. Didn't you get the memo? Does dnd actually increase a persons chances of resorting to violence though? Do any of you see any negative impact that has come from dnd (other than the gaping hole in your pocket)? I have seen no correlation between video game violence, or reading violent stories, or playing violent games, and actually committing violent acts. According to an article in NewScientist (the british equivalent of scientific america), video game and other gaming violence does not increase the chances of people actually resorting to violence, but it does improve their ability to fight (strangely enough), and weakens any emotional response to committing such things. In other words, it seems to be training you, but not pushing you into it, you become less guilt-ridden when committing violent acts, or less miserable when you see them, and can more easily harm others. What do you think? I have to support their side temporarily, or there would be no argument. That kind of close mindedness and bigotry are not commonplace in the slightest. They're the church equivolent of the KKK. Extremists who refuse to listen to reason, and hold on to old hates just because they refuse to change. You're very right though, i've met very few christian people who actually condemn gaming. Even my own parents, as fundamentalist as they come, do not in any way hinder my efforts to play. It seems to be a loud minority. If dnd did change you, so that you 'did' become more likely to become involved in violence, orgy, suicide, madness, cult behaviour (and the whole list that dnd is supposed to cause), how many of us would actually stop playing? And how many of us actually care what people like 'Jack' think?