Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Disgruntled_Filmmaker 10-09-06, 11:53 PM	Hi everyone. I'd like to take a minute of your time to tell you about a few things that have been on my mind lately. Mostly, I've been thinking about the D&D Fan Film Contest, which stands to reason, since I put in an entry. Like many other entrants, I spent several weeks crafting a script, finding equipment, actors, makeup artists, sound guys, sets, costumes and the like. As did many others, my team of the above spent considerable hours filming and editing our five minutes of film before submitting it. Honestly, having seen most of the videos, I think we should do fairly well. Maybe not win, there are two other videos I think are better than the one we submitted, but we should do well. Should being the biggest problem there. You see, 1Up/ZiffDavis/Gamevidoes.com, the entity(s) where the video entries are being hosted and voted on, apparently don't have anybody on staff who has much of a clue about security. As soon as public voting started, way back on the 15th of September, entrants, or agents of entrants, set up votebots. These little pieces of code spammed the Gamevideos.com server day and night with votes. It didn't take but a day for the voices of real voters to be drowned out completely. Then, I suspect unrelated, all of the entries disappeared. Not the page where you could vote, just the videos themselves. The videos were gone for about ten days, during which, one of my fellow entrants noted that the highest rated video 'Soar Becoming', was getting some 500 votes per hour. That's about one vote every 1.2 seconds. Some six thousand votes were cast for this film overnight, while the video itself was unwatchable. Could it be any more blatant? Many entrants, myself included, raised quite a ruckus on the forums for Gamevideos.com. Many suggested that a voter be required to be a registered member of Gamevideos.com. 1 vote per film per member. Eventually, the inept folks over at Gamevidoes.com managed to find the long lost videos, and put in a keyword security feature. Essentially, when a user went to vote for a film, they needed to prove they were a live person by repeating back a set of five random letters. It's a common, simple, and fairly effective way to eliminate scripts of all sorts. However, the suggestion for voters to be registered members was ignored. The vote counters were all reset to zero, and voting was extended to the 10th of October. Well, as you can imagine, those who had written scripts had little problem spending the time to simply hand stuff the ballot boxes. Within hours of the votes re-opening, the same videos that were in the top five, were back in the top five. Even as I write this, about 24 hours or so from the end of the contest, the top rated video is 'Soar Becoming', the same video that had votespammed earlier. Apparently blatant cheating isn't enough to have one removed from this contest. Nor is doing it twice. As I write this, of the top five videos, none have fewer than 7,000 votes. One has in excess of 24,000 votes. It's been about 14 days since the votes were wiped to zero. Even the lowest vote top five'rs are averaging about 500 votes a day. That's almost a believable number... almost. However, when you consider that they are in the same category as an entry that has more than 1700 votes in a day, I for one have trouble suspending my disbelief. One of the entrants who is in the top ten has even admitted stuffing the ballot boxes, allong with his immediate family. He's the 7000 vote guy. As if this were not enough, most of the videos in the top five, let alone the top ten, are some of the worst in the contest. Honestly, Soar Becoming is pretty bad. It's pretty. They had a great editor, some awesome sets, and a great photographer... but no script and no actors. Also, the number two rated video was submitted without reading the official rules that warn a filmmaker away from using copyrighted music... about thirty seconds into the show, what's this I hear? The Conan theme? Yet, this video is still in the contest, having its ballot box stuffed hour-by-hour. Hate-voting has been a clear issue to. I've personally seen videos go from 100 or so views and a rating of 8.0-ish, to several hundred views and a rating in the low fives. Many of the best videos have been catching an inordinate number of hate-votes, since they are seen as threats. What do the admin-types at Gamevideos.com have to say? Well, essentially, they say they've done all they can... which, of course, isn't true. They -could- have taken the advice to move to a one vote per movie per registered user model. But they didn't. Maybe they were too lazy. Maybe they just didn't know how. Maybe they lost the instructions on how to do it like they lost all the videos. Maybe one day they'll find them. Reading between the lines of a message one of the developers posted on the forums, it's clear they have decided they've done enough, and if people want to stuff the ballot boxes, that's just fine with them. So, while my video, and at least the two that I feel are better than mine should do well, I doubt any of these three will make it into the final ten, and thus never be seen by Wizards. Between the ballot box stuffing (both with positive votes and negative votes), the inept technicians at Gamevideos.com, and the blatant disregard for the rules of the contest, our honest work is likely to be lost in the shuffle, hate-voted to the bottom of the pool. Some entrants have pulled their videos from the contest. Generally speaking, these were some of the best-done videos in the contest. I can't say I blame them, I've honestly considered it several times myself. I would like to suggest here, as has been suggested on the Gamevideos.com forums, that either those videos with votes over a certain number, say 4K, be eliminated from the competition, or Wizards simply view all the videos and select the winners from that pool. The Disgruntled Filmmaker
BlackDragonStew 10-10-06, 02:20 AM	Amen. Our video has been targeted by many "Hate Votes" My friends and I have been working non-stop to keep it up, but only to turn around a few hours later, and see all of our efforts wiped out. (and then some) It's too hard to keep up. While voting tonight, I saw one video go up about 4,000 views in only 2 hours. Yet nobody seemed to be attacking it with neg votes. It's rating went up almost a whole point! I think Wizards should look at all entries, and choose the winners themselves.
boozerker 10-10-06, 04:23 AM	Is this (http://boards.1up.com/zd/board/message?board.id=gvdisc&message.id=352) where the problem got discussed? If that really happened, Wizards might need to look at the videos themselves, or contract someone better able to handle the job -- otherwise fewer people will trust a contest of this sort again. Meanwhile, gamevideos.com needs someone with expertise in there. Many people are so unfamiliar with how computers work that vote scandals are just too easy, because hardly anybody in charge believes it's possible.
a_psh 10-10-06, 09:04 AM	My friends and I have been working non-stop to keep it up, but only to turn around a few hours later, and see all of our efforts wiped out. (and then some)Err, doesn't that mean you're doing exactly what the OP is complaining about? Responding to someone doing it to you with negative votes, I know, but, still, you're stuffing the box.
Seeker95 10-10-06, 09:11 AM	I agree with all of the objections and concerns the OP has raised except one -- the impact on the outcome. The ability to cheat is equally distributed across all the videos. It is no accident that the top five vote getters were the same in the bot-voting and the manual-vote-stuffing. Those are the probably the top five videos amongst the cheaters And it is fairly safe to assume that the cheaters are evenly distributed across the popular videos. This simply turns the contest from one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 5,000 votes to one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 50,000 votes. Again, the complaints about the process are quite valid. But the outcome is not likely to be much different.
High Octane 10-10-06, 09:54 AM	Wow, Im sort of glad my video ended up not going through. I hated my friends for wussing out, but now I think I saved a headache. When there is real money at stake, the people making the contest should have realized there would be cheating involved.
Disgruntled_Filmmaker 10-10-06, 10:45 AM	I agree with all of the objections and concerns the OP has raised except one -- the impact on the outcome. This simply turns the contest from one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 5,000 votes to one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 50,000 votes. Again, the complaints about the process are quite valid. But the outcome is not likely to be much different. I beg to differ. The heart of my complaint is that the cheating is having a dramatically negative impact on the contest as a whole. Yes, anyone could stuff the ballot box, but that doesn't affect each entry equally. Here's an example: Entry A has five people who are loyal to the project, willing to stuff ballot boxes all day and all night, stopping only to sleep... maybe they're young kids with little else to do. Entry B has only one such person. Entry C has nobody willing to stuff the ballot box... maybe everyone attached to Entry C actually has morals about such things. Well, it's easy to see how A would end up with about five times the positive votes of B, and C would be left completely in the dust. Here's another example. A, B, and C each have one Ballot Box stuffer: an equal ability to cheat. Entry A is really crap. It's clear to anyone who watches it is garbage. B is a little better... and C is absolutely amazing, everyone who sees it knows it should be the winner or one of the top three at the least. Well, if each of these entries has the same ability to cheat, both A and B will hate-vote C, each perceiving it to be a threat. A will hate-vote B to some extent too, seeing a threat. The end result, A ends up with the highest average vote score, followed by B, with C left at the bottom of the pool with untold thousands of hate-votes and no way to make up the difference with the same cheating resources as the others. So, no Seeker95. You're wrong. The cheating is having a dramatic effect on the outcome. Yes, the change from bots to manual stuffing did only change the outcome in a minor way, mostly against those of us with good films (see the second example above), but cheating as a whole... Has Wizards labeled this contest correctly, as "D&D Ballot Box Stuffing Contest", then I wouldn't have wasted my time and resources (and the time and resources of my cast and crew) trying to make a short film I'm actually proud of. Disgruntled Filmmaker -P.S. Since my post not but about 10 hours ago, the 25k vote film I mentioned has gained some 3500 votes. It must be pretty popular in the Asian markets. No less than five other films have similarly seen more than a thousand votes in the same period.
Azezel 10-10-06, 11:01 AM	Fiasco is the word. Now I realise the the United States is the only country in the world, so I was not suprised to see that I could not enter any video I might have made, but I was rather looking forward to veiwing the entries, in my naive way I thought it might be fun. I shoot over to gamevideos only to find that the entries are presented in stone age mpeg or qicktime format that takes my broadband connection ten minutes to buffer. This is 2006 - we have the technology to broadcast truely streaming video! Youtube can do it, Google Video can do it (and incidentally either of those outfits would have elliminated the things the OP mentioned in a heartbeat). So, am I willing to spend ten minutes buffering a five minute film? No. Do I care about the outcome of the competition, in light of the OP's points? Nope. Am I looking forward to the likely repaet of the competition next year? Can't see why I would...
Andron 10-10-06, 11:58 AM	I just got frustraited with the host site and stopped trying to go there. It is HORRID! That is the worst site I have ever been to. Videos would freeze up, no choice in format, couldn't move on to the next section, wouldn't remember what order you were looking in, repeat videos you had seen earlier. This whole thing is a joke. I was looking forward to watching ALL the entries and giving a good honest opinion on each one. This has been mishandled from the beginning. I am definately glad we didn't waste our time trying to come up with something. I also agree with the blantant ballot stuffing, it's just wrong. Hopefully WOTC will do something about it, but I doubt it.
boozerker 10-10-06, 11:59 AM	The ability to cheat is equally distributed across all the videos. ..... This simply turns the contest from one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 5,000 votes to one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 50,000 votes. Hopefully that's not commonly believed, with digital voting affecting more than just internet contestants (which I'll not go into because of the CoC -- just picture a situation where some of the cheaters' family own Gamevideos, which exploits ownership law to deny inspection of the voting software... apply that concept nationally and PRESTO). Anyway, what you said implies that all video sumbitters are cheaters.
boozerker 10-10-06, 12:06 PM	I just got frustraited with the host site and stopped trying to go there. It is HORRID! That is the worst site I have ever been to. Videos would freeze up, no choice in format, couldn't move on to the next section, wouldn't remember what order you were looking in, repeat videos you had seen earlier. This whole thing is a joke. I was looking forward to watching ALL the entries... Same here.
The White Sorcerer 10-10-06, 04:29 PM	gamevideos.com is subpar. At best. I tried searching for "D&D" and what do I get? "Results for 'D'"...
BlackDragonStew 10-10-06, 05:31 PM	Err, doesn't that mean you're doing exactly what the OP is complaining about? Responding to someone doing it to you with negative votes, I know, but, still, you're stuffing the box. I am not voting negative towards other films. Also, stuffing the box is one thing- stuffing someone else's film with negatives is far more unfair. The voting is based on averages, not total votes. If I vote 100 times, and give my film 10's each time- someone else can come in and vote 1's 50 times.(which they are) My average is down to 7. That is a low enough rating to not be in the final 10. So, as you can see, I have to put in over twice as many positive votes just to average out the negative votes we recieve. Negative votes are the reason We are trying to "keep up". Well, it's easy to see how A would end up with about five times the positive votes of B, and C would be left completely in the dust. The key word being POSITIVE.
a_psh 10-10-06, 05:36 PM	So, as you can see, I have to put in over twice as many positive votes just to average out the negative votes we recieve.I understand the math and logic behind it, but, based on the OP's criteria, you're still cheating, even if you are mostly doing it as a way to counter others' cheating. If people weren't stuffing the boxes with negative results, all the positive vote-stuffing would still be invalidating the contest.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-10-06, 05:44 PM	So the only way those who worked really hard to create something wonderful to come out of this honorably is to accept the fact that the voting is FUBAR and let their creations be voted into oblivion?
a_psh 10-10-06, 05:58 PM	So the only way those who worked really hard to create something wonderful to come out of this honorably is to accept the fact that the voting is FUBAR and let their creations be voted into oblivion?If that's a question to me, then, yes, BlackDragonStew is definitely acting less "honorably" than the OP here. Setting up your own vote mill / vote bot to spam "positive reviews" just to counter someone else's vote mill / vote bot is still getting your hands dirty and further invalidating the contest.
Disgruntled_Filmmaker 10-10-06, 06:09 PM	Sorry. Accidental Multipost.
Disgruntled_Filmmaker 10-10-06, 06:14 PM	Just a litte update for all of you, about 8 hours after my last. 'To Save A Princess', the 25,000 vote entry, not only gained 3500 votes overnight, but they have since gained an additional 3000 votes or so, bringing it up to more than 31,000 votes. To get 31,000 votes over the course of 15 days, one would have to be getting more than two thousand votes a day. Looking at the top five rated videos as they stand at the time of this post, we see the following: #1 Dragonbane: Endgame Rating: 9.1, 7,893 Votes This video clearly violates the contest rules by using the Conan Theme. Somehow I doubt they actually procured the rights. #2 To Save A Princess Rating: 9.0, 31,339 Votes More than two thousand views a day, huh... #3 Soar Becoming Rating: 8.9, 11,510 Votes Blatantly cheated with multiple votebots before the videos were all lost, but somehow isn't banned from the contest. Still has more views than the entry who's creator openly admits stuffing the ballot box. #4 The Undead Warrior Rating: 8.9, 9,277 Votes Creator openly admits stuffing the ballot box. Why is this vid not tossed out of the contest? #5 Luck of the Roll Rating: 8.9, 17,403 Votes Honestly, look at this video. It's terrible. This is the posterchild for how the current system promotes the worst videos and downvotes the best. Notice the five digit number of votes... also more than the openly cheating git. Five for five. So... please, someone give me some reason to hope this contest isn't going to be a complete disaster. Please. Someone. I want to believe. Disgruntled Filmmaker
Count Arioch the 28th 10-10-06, 06:23 PM	If WotC choose this format for their contest, then it only stands to reason that they 100% condone cheating in this case, and there isn't a lot you can do, other than cheat more efficiently.
GreyLord 10-10-06, 06:26 PM	Well, if it's any consolation, I've never actually seen ANY good, or well made fan films for D&D...I've seen a few (make that a mere handful) for SW, but good fan films are hard to find. I haven't gone to such sites, perhaps I should if I really had any faith that any of them would actually impress me (and no, I thought the gamers was terrible from what I've seen of it, I suppose perhaps I'm hard to impress). Actually, there IS one good fan film I've seen for D&D...it's off of Reno 911... But I digress...that one's probably is at the bottom of the heap because if it were submitted there wouldn't be votebots going for it I suppose... :eek: Not really following this fan film D&D thing, but mostly it's because as I've said, even those supposedly "good" ones that people rave about...really don't seem all that great to me...
anshar 10-10-06, 06:39 PM	Just to go back to Seeker95's comments for a sec: I disagree with your conclusion but for different reasons than have been posted already. Your post seems to imply that it is the fans of a given film who are setting up the vote bots and therefore the film still has to be popular to get the votes from the cheaters. I believe this to be a faulty assumption. I believe it is the filmmakers and those associated with the filmmakers who are setting up the cheats. Therefore if filmmaker A decides to cheat and filmmaker B chooses not to cheat, filmmaker A will win no matter how bad his/her film may be because the vote bot will out vote all of the legitimate votes for B.
anshar 10-10-06, 06:46 PM	To the original poster: Perhaps you should consider withdrawing your film. If you do, will it be eligible for entry if they do this again? If so, then perhaps the hope is that Wizards will learn their lesson from this round and next time they run a fan film contest it will be more honest. If all of that happens, then enter you film then.
Tyveil 10-10-06, 07:09 PM	This simply turns the contest from one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 5,000 votes to one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 50,000 votes. Again, the complaints about the process are quite valid. But the outcome is not likely to be much different. Such a statement - that cheaters even themselves out - is absolutely ludicrous. I have no stake in the contest, but it's easy to see from the evidence posted in this thread it is clearly a fiasco and the voting results should not be validated. Wizards did a poor job finding a partner to handle this contest, they (gamevideos.com) obviously do not have the capabilities or experience to handle it.
ArcTan 10-10-06, 07:33 PM	I agree with all of the objections and concerns the OP has raised except one -- the impact on the outcome. The ability to cheat is equally distributed across all the videos. It is no accident that the top five vote getters were the same in the bot-voting and the manual-vote-stuffing. Those are the probably the top five videos amongst the cheaters And it is fairly safe to assume that the cheaters are evenly distributed across the popular videos. This simply turns the contest from one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 5,000 votes to one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 50,000 votes. Again, the complaints about the process are quite valid. But the outcome is not likely to be much different. ...That's assuming that cheating asshats are likely to have the exact same set of preferences as the general population, which is unlikely. In fact, I'd be willing to bet the subset of the population that is cheating asshats and the subset that has good taste may, in fact, skew towards entirely different ends of the spectrum.
Ashok_Lal 10-10-06, 07:36 PM	Democracy ah!
Myree 10-10-06, 11:27 PM	And to think some people have actually suggested changing General Elections to web-based seems reasonable! Well, maybe in Chicago, where even the dead can faithfully vote for the current Mayor Daley... Personally, if you forget the voting for a minute, and all the trouble access the files (which I'm sure is directly related to the voting fiasco), some of these films really are quite good (when you can get to them). I personally enjoyed MANY more than I had the opportunity to vote on (for whatever that was worth), and even the bad weren't that bad. So, I would suggest to forget the prize and go for the popular -- each film maker (yes, even you, Azezel, no matter what country or planet the Isle of Wight might be on) get these things loaded out onto Youtube and/or GoogleVideo (I guess that's redundant now, huh?) and get them so everyone can find them. The let the popularity and reviews by real users be the best judge. Besides, a lot of them took direct stabs at the stereo-types we all live in anyway, and a little self-deprecating humor can go a long way to challenge that!
Disgruntled_Filmmaker 10-11-06, 12:04 AM	As of 11:59pm EDT... about when I would expect the contest voting to come to a conclusion: At least two videos in the ten highest rated clearly violate the Official Rules of the contest as they are written. Both make use of copyrighted material. While it would be possible to use this material after having procured the proper rights, I strongly doubt either made any attempt at such. Chicanery makes judicious use of terms held in copyright by White Wolf, and just barely keeps on the topic of D&D. DragonBane:Endgame makes use of copyrighted music from the Conan series of films. While a grassroots effort to get out the vote for a film seems completely within the realm of acceptable and even encouraged for this competition, multi-voting, and gang multi-voting seems over the line... though that line is not clearly defined in the Official Rules. The creator of Undead Warrior has openly stated he has stuffed the ballot box, and he currently sits with about 9,000 votes, and in the ten highest rated videos. So, we have a line drawn at 9,000 votes. Anyone who has that many votes or more is highly likely to be stuffing the ballot box in their favor. Films that currently have more the 9,000 votes include: To Save A Princess at 34,000+ votes, currently rated #2 at 9.0. To collect 34,000 votes, one would have to be getting more than 2200 votes a day. That's an average of one vote every 45 seconds. Soar Becoming at 13,000+ votes, currently rated #3 at 9.0. It is no surprise to see Soar Becoming in the top ten, as it was being auto-voted at such an alarming rate before the reset. How can the organizers of the contest justify allowing such blatant cheating? Luck of the Roll at 17,000+ votes, currently rated #5 at 8.9. The Interview at 14,000+ votes, currently rated #6 at 8.8. Undead Warrior at 9,000+ votes, currently rated #4 at 8.9. A Little Change at 13,000+ votes, currently rated #7 at 8.7. Eight of the ten highest rated videos (Chicanery, A Little Change, To Save A Princess, Soar Becoming, Luck of the Roll, The Interview, DragonBane: Endgame, and Undead Warrior) are either in direct conflict with the Official Rules, or have a highly suspect number of votes.
BlaineTog 10-11-06, 12:34 AM	Yeah, that sucks. My condolences, dude.
Morgann_the_Inept 10-11-06, 01:57 AM	So... please, someone give me some reason to hope this contest isn't going to be a complete disaster. Please. Someone. I want to believe. Disgruntled Filmmaker I don't know how well I'll do, but here you go: All film contests suck. I've participated in half a dozen or so, in different capacities, and they all suck. I always feel cheated, and there are always admin issues. For example, the slogan for this, as prominantly displayed on the website, is "Vote early, Vote often," Not "May the highest quality video that looks the most professional win." You're telling me you didn't see this coming? Come now. Only the final judges are supposed to know what they are doing. If one wants to win, one does what one can, within the rules. I voted early, and often, and it sucked, because I sat where I am now for hours and hours, just trying not to be voted into oblivion. I developed an extrememly efficient system, but but I never, ever, ever cheated. There were no rules about voting multiple times, and that's just the way it is. It was encouraged, so I did it. There you go. Anyway, I know it sucks, but it sucks in your favor, if you vote early and often. I'm sorry to say I got hate-bombed every monday morning like clockwork, but I'm proud to say I didn't return the favor. I don't know who was doing it, but if I ever meet them, I have been working on a stream of obsenities just for them. Bad form. My film was "The Harlot." I worked very hard. We all did. This was the first film I wrote, directed, produced, edited, etc. I've been in lots of others, but this was my gaming group's baby, and I'm proud of our baby. I asked one actor friend to come help, the rest of us are regular players, and we sit in those exact same spots every other Saturday. It didn't come out like I would have liked, but I'm proud as hell of it nonetheless, and I feel it's pretty decent. Even funny. In places. hehe. I tried really hard to make my film congruent to the judging guidelines. To suggest that a film is lesser quality because you don't have professional level actors or a whole crew or a couple grand to blow is not unreasonable, but I don't believe that this contest was about that. This was for fans. If you run a studio where you have access to writers, actors, lighting, sound, etc., then I put it to you that you, sir, are the real cheater, as my film is at a natural disadvantage to say, "Choices," which is my favorite, if ineligable due to character liscencing, film. There were many others I really liked, even some of the horrible ones had some charm, and the animation was awesome in a few instances. To close this, let me say that WITHOUT EXCEPTION these films were made out of the love we have for this game, or making movies, or whatever. That's why this contest is very much time well spent. Look at what we created. We did all this. We made over seventy films that some folks watched and enjoyed, and we never would have done it had this contest never happened. How in the name of Vechna's (sp?) balls can anybody turn up their noses to that? Personally, I'd like a DVD copy of the entire collection. Even the ones that truly sucked.
Morgann_the_Inept 10-11-06, 02:35 AM	Oh yeah. One more thing. One might ask one's self, "Why vote early and often?". I have a theory. This contest is a partnership between Wizards and the host site for the competition, whose name I forget. 1UP? Sites like that make revenue from their advertising. Advertising rates are based on web traffic. During this contest, traffic was incredible, so ad rates must have soared for them, and they made a load of cash. Somebody has to make money here. If you want to complain, complain about that. I could be wrong though. Just a theory. I can go off a little half-cocked at times.
cancerousmango 10-11-06, 03:02 AM	youtube.com/watch?v=JEzY2tnwExs The same thing happens in the elections that actually matter. P.S. Most of the ones i watched (I only watched a few because of the crummy tech and crummier material) were awful.
Seeker95 10-11-06, 08:14 AM	:confused: Shocked if you actually believe what you're saying.I don't understand why you are shocked or why you find it hard to believe. This is un-registered, anonymous-voter voting. You are encouraged to vote as often as you like. Nothing in the rules indicates you can vote only once. It is the same as American Idol, where the contestant with the most votes wins. The advantage to the Internet-based voting is that it does not create a logjam of traffic preventing the most popular from getting all of the attempted votes simply because too many people are trying at once. The disadvantage of Internet voting is that there are plenty of individuals who know how to use the Internet to increase the votes at a faster rate than telephone bank voters can accomplish. As for cheating... until something is against the rules, it is not cheating. Slamming the vote boxes is a regular part of Internet voting.
boozerker 10-11-06, 01:17 PM	The disadvantage of Internet voting is that there are plenty of individuals who know how to use the Internet to increase the votes at a faster rate than telephone bank voters can accomplish. As for cheating... until something is against the rules, it is not cheating. Slamming the vote boxes is a regular part of Internet voting. They might as well replace the video contest with a button only, whoever clicks it the fastest in a month wins (that's be the computer saavy one with great equipment or programs).
Morgann_the_Inept 10-13-06, 12:49 AM	BTW, does anybody actually know who made the top ten????
Disgruntled_Filmmaker 10-13-06, 09:46 AM	BTW, does anybody actually know who made the top ten???? Well, if you go to the site and sort by rating, that gives you one list... but the Official Rules are rather vague on the subject, and, if it is anything like the rest of the contest, they won't really matter that much anyway. So, the short answer is, nobody really knows because Wizard's hasn't told anybody anything... although I suspect by now they have contacted the winners.
The White Sorcerer 10-13-06, 10:52 AM	Which film's yours, Disgruntled?
Morgann_the_Inept 10-13-06, 01:51 PM	Actually, the rules are pretty clear about that. The ten with the most number of popular votes. What's unclear is when exactly any submissions that are ineligable will be disqualified, and whether or not #11 moves into #10 if #2 is disqualified. I expect they will follow their own rules if they want to avoid bad publicity.
CharlieRock 10-13-06, 02:00 PM	If its any consolation to the OP, ol'Charlie couldn't get that channel that had the fan films to come in right. We could see the list and pick the videos, but nothing we tried actually played any of them. So, we gave up. Stick it on youtube, we watch that one all the time. :) Who knows? May be the next numa-numa guy, or lonelygirl ;)
Articman 10-16-06, 06:37 PM	So does anyone know who the top ten are?
clockworkjoe 10-16-06, 11:52 PM	You know, many fan films have high production values. Some film industry people make Star Wars or Trek fan films to showcase their skills. Furthermore, the guy who made Worlds of Adventure is a professional animator. Why should anyone give an award to Wizards Scrying Network when there are better videos out there? I'm giving The Interview the benefit of the doubt, but WSN is inexcusable. It's just awful. My personal favorites are: Road to Mithril Hall To Save A Princess TE1: Hextor Best Game Ever (my film)
rizzard 10-17-06, 02:49 PM	Actually I'm not a professional animator. wish i was I'd make a whole lot more money. I'm a illustrator and graphic designer by trade. I just spent my whole vacation working on it about two weeks straight. my top favorite videos were -Dungeons and Dragons: Get a life -Road to Mithril Hall(they should make a real series out of this, i'd love to see this on CN or something else. it would be very successful) -forget the name but the office episode with the +4 stapler was very good well executed and well written
Donkeypunch 10-17-06, 03:00 PM	Hey Riley! I've seen all three now. I can't even begin to understand how the shopping network piece moved forward, much less got to the top 3. THE INTERVIEW is cute, but there are some major drawbacks. I will be shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, if Worlds of Adventure doesn't win. After second thought...Eberron. I will NOT be shocked if WoA doesn't win. :rolleyes:
Articman 10-17-06, 03:03 PM	Hey Riley! I've seen all three now. I can't even begin to understand how the shopping network piece moved forward, much less got to the top 3. THE INTERVIEW is cute, but there are some major drawbacks. I will be shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, if Worlds of Adventure doesn't win. After second thought...Eberron. I will NOT be shocked if WoA doesn't win. :rolleyes: Why not, I think the shopping network piece is pretty funny.
rizzard 10-17-06, 03:05 PM	yeah that would be the kicker and the thing i was worried about all along my peice is comprised entirely of pre 3e stuff. It's gonna be a toss up for sure
clockworkjoe 10-17-06, 03:07 PM	Why not, I think the shopping network piece is pretty funny. The jokes aren't funny, their timing is poor and the sound is bad. Fan films should be judged like any other film. I know a few people who have gotten work in the movie industry due to their fan films. You can't excuse WSN when you have films like To Save a Princess with good production values, acceptable acting and better jokes.
Donkeypunch 10-17-06, 03:11 PM	Why not, I think the shopping network piece is pretty funny. Part of it is from a past job. I've rejected dozens of HSN spoofs for TV spots, as they were done to death several years ago. I thought they missed the obvious boat for some much better jokes, and the performances were "meh". I saw some great performances is some not-so-well written pieces, and some really funny bits that were butchered by the delivery. I guess I felt that while MSN wasn't terrible in either category, it wasn't superior in either one as well. The lightning was cool, but that's a Boris Effects plug-in, they didn't create it from whole cloth...like sombody else I know. ;)
Articman 10-17-06, 03:12 PM	The jokes aren't funny, their timing is poor and the sound is bad. Fan films should be judged like any other film. I know a few people who have gotten work in the movie industry due to their fan films. You can't excuse WSN when you have films like To Save a Princess with good production values, acceptable acting and better jokes. Well it shows people just have different taste in what is funny and what is not.
GreyLord 10-17-06, 06:44 PM	Actually I'm not a professional animator. wish i was I'd make a whole lot more money. I'm a illustrator and graphic designer by trade. I just spent my whole vacation working on it about two weeks straight. my top favorite videos were -Dungeons and Dragons: Get a life -Road to Mithril Hall(they should make a real series out of this, i'd love to see this on CN or something else. it would be very successful) -forget the name but the office episode with the +4 stapler was very good well executed and well written You're the guy who did it? I had a question that could be resolved here and now for any issues with it. Did you also make the music or own the rights? If so, nice job and great music, if not... Well, just wondering about it if you could give a quick answer.
Weaponbreaker 10-17-06, 06:50 PM	So yeah, we should use internet voting for all of our public elections it's so easy, inexpensive and will save the environment with no paper trail....
rizzard 10-17-06, 06:50 PM	my freind scott is in this band "Crom" he wrote it for us, and layed all the seperate tracks down himself. it's totally original and specific.
John05 10-17-06, 06:57 PM	I agree with all of the objections and concerns the OP has raised except one -- the impact on the outcome. The ability to cheat is equally distributed across all the videos. It is no accident that the top five vote getters were the same in the bot-voting and the manual-vote-stuffing. Those are the probably the top five videos amongst the cheaters And it is fairly safe to assume that the cheaters are evenly distributed across the popular videos. This simply turns the contest from one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 5,000 votes to one in which the winner receives 10-15% of 50,000 votes. Again, the complaints about the process are quite valid. But the outcome is not likely to be much different. Ouch. I'm sorry but that is some of the worst logic I've heard. For one, it assumes that all participants are willing to cheat. For another, it assumes that everyone can script voter-bots with equal ability. The outcome is almost completely different. Going by what you're implying, internet voting is a measure of the product of "time to waste" and "quantified scripting ability".
GreyLord 10-17-06, 07:03 PM	my freind scott is in this band "Crom" he wrote it for us, and layed all the seperate tracks down himself. it's totally original and specific. Well, I like the music. No offense to the video, but I like the music far more than the video. The music is pretty good, enough for me to think it was professional (perhaps it is, don't know about Crom much so). Cool.
rizzard 10-17-06, 07:11 PM	glad you like the tune(titled Regal Frost) it's pretty good. i liked the video allot better before i had to compress it the full res version looks allot better and runs way smoother (obviously) also GV.com never specified a ratio so ours got squished horizontally.
BlackDragonStew 10-17-06, 07:26 PM	These films are done by amateurs. (This contest is not just for film majors) They might not be the best as far as production, but obviously they impressed Wizards enough to get in. Also, Why can't people put faith in WOTC as far as rule abidance goes. Stop looking for reasons to disqualify films. It seams that nobody can understand that the top ten had absolutely nothing to do with amounts of votes- it was average rating. Best Game Ever had more views than World Of Adventure, or Wizard Scrying Network. Yet, Best Game Ever didn't make the top ten. Number of votes didn't matter. As others have pointed out, and many have just snowballed over the thought with their blind rage- These movies were made out of love for a game called Dungeons and Dragons. Never before this have we had a chance to share our excitement for D&D in this way. I'm sure that next time they have a contest there will be plenty or films that surpass the quality of these films. Those films will also have had more than a month to be put together, or did we all forget that part. There are a lot of posts pointing out flaws, and dislikes, yet few showing support for our fellow gamers' creations. Congrats to all who entered.:clap: You have each given us reason to smile.:twocents:
Articman 10-17-06, 07:46 PM	These films are done by amateurs. (This contest is not just for film majors) They might not be the best as far as production, but obviously they impressed Wizards enough to get in. Also, Why can't people put faith in WOTC as far as rule abidance goes. Stop looking for reasons to disqualify films. It seams that nobody can understand that the top ten had absolutely nothing to do with amounts of votes- it was average rating. Best Game Ever had more views than World Of Adventure, or Wizard Scrying Network. Yet, Best Game Ever didn't make the top ten. Number of votes didn't matter. As others have pointed out, and many have just snowballed over the thought with their blind rage- These movies were made out of love for a game called Dungeons and Dragons. Never before this have we had a chance to share our excitement for D&D in this way. I'm sure that next time they have a contest there will be plenty or films that surpass the quality of these films. Those films will also have had more than a month to be put together, or did we all forget that part. There are a lot of posts pointing out flaws, and dislikes, yet few showing support for our fellow gamers' creations. Congrats to all who entered.:clap: You have each given us reason to smile.:twocents: Well said, Well said...
clockworkjoe 10-17-06, 10:53 PM	These films are done by amateurs. (This contest is not just for film majors) They might not be the best as far as production, but obviously they impressed Wizards enough to get in. Also, Why can't people put faith in WOTC as far as rule abidance goes. Stop looking for reasons to disqualify films. It seams that nobody can understand that the top ten had absolutely nothing to do with amounts of votes- it was average rating. Best Game Ever had more views than World Of Adventure, or Wizard Scrying Network. Yet, Best Game Ever didn't make the top ten. Number of votes didn't matter. As others have pointed out, and many have just snowballed over the thought with their blind rage- These movies were made out of love for a game called Dungeons and Dragons. Never before this have we had a chance to share our excitement for D&D in this way. I'm sure that next time they have a contest there will be plenty or films that surpass the quality of these films. Those films will also have had more than a month to be put together, or did we all forget that part. There are a lot of posts pointing out flaws, and dislikes, yet few showing support for our fellow gamers' creations. Congrats to all who entered.:clap: You have each given us reason to smile.:twocents: Average rating is even worse than number of views because several videos, including mine were attacked by votebots. Furthermore, it encourages filmmakers to not publicize their work. After all, a video with only 1,000 votes can get a high rating more easily than a video with 5,000 votes. To be honest, I was glad to make the video as I learned a lot making it but I won't enter in a film contest like this again. Giving away the copyright on my work and not even have it fairly judged is just depressing. If Wizards tries to run this type of contest again, they should remove ANY type of popularity contest and only let a panel of publicly known and competent judges rank each video. I think if we have to spend many hours creating a video, then it should at least get an honest review from the judges.
boozerker 10-18-06, 12:03 AM	Boosting a competitor's views could easily be a red herring. Anyway, here's a link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=722737) in case anyone missed the finalists announcement. Wizards mentions having learned from mistakes which they'll probably avoid next time around. But since they're asking for suggestions, here's our chance to speak up now and help improve the next contest's voting system.
guru7892 10-18-06, 12:22 AM	can you put your videos on you-tube so we can watch them an judge them ourselves? if you can beat paxil-back then you're pretty good in my book.
Azezel 10-18-06, 04:38 AM	Wizards have said that next year they will try to learn from their mistakes, yet I would almost bet my house that next year's competition will also not be open to anyone who does not live in the United States. Meh...
The White Sorcerer 10-18-06, 05:50 AM	would almost bet my house that next year's competition will also not be open to anyone who does not live in the United States. Why would that be?
Zersch 10-18-06, 09:44 AM	Well, maybe next year they'll do it like they did with the Fantasy Setting Contest that Kieth Baker and Eberron won. That was done all in-house, and seemed to go well.
boozerker 10-18-06, 09:56 AM	can you put your videos on you-tube so we can watch them an judge them ourselves? We're going to try to post all of the submissions on our site, too, so that other fans can see them. Link here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=722737).
Azezel 10-18-06, 10:17 AM	Why would that be? Er, based on previous experience... With the best will in the world, it is almost a foregone conclusion that an American organisation, even a theoretically international one like Wizards (or Hasbro) will be parochial and exclusionist if at all it can. It's not mallice, I know that - nobody ever said 'Damned foreigners - let's exclude them from our glorious American competition *Evil Laugh*'. Honestly - I doubt it ever occured to anyone in Wizards HQ that someone beyond the ocean might have a video cammera and some spare time. (That's mostly why I'm making such a fuss about this - maybe someone will listen).
Escef 10-18-06, 01:08 PM	Er, based on previous experience... With the best will in the world, it is almost a foregone conclusion that an American organisation, even a theoretically international one like Wizards (or Hasbro) will be parochial and exclusionist if at all it can. It's not mallice, I know that <snip> I doubt it ever occured to anyone in Wizards HQ that someone beyond the ocean might have a video cammera and some spare time. (That's mostly why I'm making such a fuss about this - maybe someone will listen). Did it ever occur to you that maybe it was done to avoid the legal hassles involved in making the contest international? Believe it or not, both WotC and Hasbro are very aware that they have overseas markets. And they won't go to any length to make the contest international in the future unless a large number of consumers voice their complaints. I recommend a mailed letter. Not email, not a phone call, but an actual letter; companies take letters more seriously.
Sulaco 10-18-06, 02:15 PM	I had a question that could be resolved here and now for any issues with it. Did you also make the music or own the rights? I'm curious, too, if there aren't some potential legal issues from using so much copyrighted artwork.
Seeker95 10-18-06, 02:59 PM	With the best will in the world, it is almost a foregone conclusion that an American organisation, even a theoretically international one like Wizards (or Hasbro) will be parochial and exclusionist if at all it can.I think it probably has more to do with the really screwed up view and enforcement of copyright law the rest of the world has adopted. With the U.S. having the more stringent enforcement laws, it makes sense to restrict entry to those who must abide by them.
HamHam 10-18-06, 05:11 PM	I think it probably has more to do with the really screwed up view and enforcement of copyright law the rest of the world has adopted. With the U.S. having the more stringent enforcement laws, it makes sense to restrict entry to those who must abide by them. I love how it's the rest of the world that's screwed up...
Seeker95 10-18-06, 06:56 PM	I love how it's the rest of the world that's screwed up...I actually find it disturbing. Just goes to show that diversity is a really good thing. The melting pot manifests the best of all worlds. :P
boozerker 10-18-06, 09:55 PM	I love how it's the rest of the world that's screwed up... The "Water American (http://www.historynet.com/exploration/science_engineering/3036996.html)" is even more screwed up :) "I never made, nor proposed to make, the least profit by any of them."
clockworkjoe 10-19-06, 12:24 AM	my freind scott is in this band "Crom" he wrote it for us, and layed all the seperate tracks down himself. it's totally original and specific. So he's cool with giving up the copyright for the song?
HamHam 10-19-06, 12:50 AM	I actually find it disturbing. Just goes to show that diversity is a really good thing. The melting pot manifests the best of all worlds. :P Do you realize that was an insult?
boozerker 10-19-06, 09:16 AM	I think it probably has more to do with the really screwed up view and enforcement of copyright law the rest of the world has adopted. Maybe the world really operates more like the "Water American (http://www.historynet.com/exploration/science_engineering/3036996.html)" :) ....and thoughts. "I never made, nor proposed to make, the least profit by any of them."
Seeker95 10-19-06, 09:19 AM	Do you realize that was an insult?That's the danger of throwing insults about. You can't control how they are received.
The White Sorcerer 10-19-06, 04:27 PM	The melting pot manifests the best of all worlds. :P And the worst.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-19-06, 07:17 PM	Lo, I am become Melting Pot, manifester of worlds.
Will Power 10-20-06, 10:12 AM	Also, Why can't people put faith in WOTC as far as rule abidance goes. Stop looking for reasons to disqualify films. It seams that nobody can understand that the top ten had absolutely nothing to do with amounts of votes- it was average rating. Best Game Ever had more views than World Of Adventure, or Wizard Scrying Network. Yet, Best Game Ever didn't make the top ten. Number of votes didn't matter. First off, the rules give reasons to disqualify entries, not people here. You don't have to look for reasons. Secondly, how do you think the average score is tallied? It is done by averaging the number of votes good or bad. So it has everything to do with the amount of votes.
rizzard 10-20-06, 01:46 PM	I'm curious, too, if there aren't some potential legal issues from using so much copyrighted artwork. to answer your question Sulaco. it was in the rules that we could use any D&D material i read them over and over. obviously if it were against the rules it would no longer be in the contest. and since i will be signing a release to wotc i basically made them a video, so there are no legal issues
rizzard 10-20-06, 01:49 PM	So he's cool with giving up the copyright for the song? i guess so Clockwork. no actually he is in two bands, and he earns enough money and credit, to the point where he is happy he could contribute to my project. He wrote and recorded the song in one evening. and telling by the riffage he's not one to get his pants in a bunch over this stuff. I know your upset clock work but stop pokin at me. crom http://www.amazon.com/Cocaine-Wars-Crom/dp/B0000589BW/sr=8-1/qid=1161368241/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-5297976-6785520?ie=UTF8 my barbarian http://www.mybarbarian.com/
ArchMageQuandolf 10-21-06, 01:43 PM	Man after reading this thread start to finish, I am truly glad that I did not try to place an entry, I would blown a spark plug over that crap. I had all the stuff reading and then my brother moved and the other characters(people) lost interest after he left, oh well. Maybe next year they'll have their S**t together.