Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hengwrt Ellesmere 04-17-06, 03:48 PM	I found this article linked from CNN's webpage. http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Parenting/tb/3098 Goth is a subgenre of punk culture characterized by "a dark and sinister aesthetic, with aficionados conspicuous by their range of distinctive clothing and makeup and tastes in music," the investigators said. There is a Goth subculture in the U.S., reportedly inspired by fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragon. I don't know if the claim that D&D inspires kids to be "goth" was in the original medical study on goth kids, or whether it was added by the reviewer, but it kind of shocked me. The fact that it referred to "a Goth subctulture in the U.S. reportedly inspired by fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragon [sic]" suggests that the writer is not American and doesn't have any idea what D&D is. Normally I wouldn't care, but the fact that this article proposes a positive correlation between suicide and goth culture, and thus "Dungons and Dragon", strikes me as bad publicity based on bad information. Is there anything we can do about this?
Illion the Red 04-17-06, 03:52 PM	Goth is a World of Darkness thing more than a D&D thing. I wouldn't worry.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-17-06, 03:53 PM	I wish more goth chicks were into DnD... Seriously though, the widespread dissemination of misinformation about any and all non-mainstream cultures, be they gamers, goths, hobbyists, what have you is an unstoppable juggernaut purely for the fact that the only time something 'newsworthy' about them comes out, its tied to a crime. Not because these things lead to crime, but because nothing else we do is note worthy. Add to that, the concept of 'Geek Orthodox' where the hardcore fans of any given subculture will do anything in thier power to malign groups they aren't part of and its a self fulfilling prophecy. Need and example? Well, this thread will fill up with a lot of anti-goth culture sentiment soon enough. And if you can't wait for that, post the words 'anime' or 'MMORPG' on this board and read the responses. To combat it would require that we do something so monumentally good that that gets on the news ahead of the latest 'keep people scared and docile' report.
Gailbraithe 04-17-06, 04:06 PM	That is the most asinine thing I've read in awhile. The author clearly knows nothing about either D&D or Goth. To say that the Goth subculture - which has been around just about as long as D&D - was inspired by D&D? That's just nonsense. Goth is a music subculture first and foremost. The Goth subculture originated in England, not America, and was first identified as an actual scene in the late 70's/early 80's - at least a decade before White Wolf. Goth style was defined by bands like Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Mission (aka Mission UK), and bands like that. D&D has little or no connection to Goths. A small subset of Goths play RPGs, and they tend to stick to the White Wolf World of Darkness games. There has been some crossover between Goth and D&D - settings like Ravenloft were an attempt to win over "gothlings" brought into the RPG hobby by White Wolf. Really, what the author is asserting is as stupid as asserting that Punk Rock was inspired by Atari games, or that Hip-Hop was inspired by Candyland. It's just ignorant.
Sikyanakotik 04-17-06, 04:13 PM	Well, if the article was about these goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths), they might have had a point. ;)
Bruunwald 04-17-06, 04:13 PM	"Goths" and the term that accompanies them, have been around since the late seventies or early eighties. In all of that time, I have never met a single goth - and I was well acquainted with them in high school, by the way - who played D&D. My experience with goths was that they were in a sort of funk mindset where they couldn't be bothered with games, trivia or anything involving much effort. They'd also be ****** to be associated with punk. Though some goths think punk is okay, the ones I knew - and know now - were much more interested in the underground London keyboard-and-crap music that inspired the whole look in the first place. Which brings us to where the goth look comes from, which as far as I know, from what I've read and from a friend of mine (a coworker from London who used to go out to people's houses for the maid service she worked for in full Egyptian-style goth chic - really freaked them out, by the way), really is a product of disenfranchised and bored English youth in response to the bad politics, dying punk and dinosaur rock era of 70's/80's England. American kids picked up on the look in the eighties, usually adopting bands like Love & Rockets, The Smiths, and the like, as their mascots. Then there were the ones into more underground music, the stuff I can't remember very well, who were really depressed all the time and sometimes (but not always) had issues with self-mutilation. However, none of this has anything to do with D&D. Those guys tolerated me engaging in a game, but wouldn't have been caught dead playing it themselves. I don't know. I'm no official historian. Maybe there's some new goth movement that is so damned important it's eclipsed all memory of the original goth brand. But as far as I can tell, that guy's writing his article from his lower orifice.
Illion the Red 04-17-06, 04:21 PM	I just want to add this to the record: Facts have little to do with News. Especially in America.
Deacon Liadon 04-17-06, 05:00 PM	I've never really seen goth as being "dark and sinister". Most of the goths I'm friends with are quite cheerful and easygoing.
scienceman47 04-17-06, 05:15 PM	Really, what the author is asserting is as stupid as asserting that Punk Rock was inspired by Atari games, or that Hip-Hop was inspired by Candyland. It's just ignorant. But Hip hop is inspired by candyland. I listened to some guy talk about how him and the peppermint lumberjack guy were goin out to get crunked and pick up that smokin frosting fairy. Wow, I dont have a clue how so sound like I know anything about either. I'm not even sure there is a frosting fairy.
Araciel 04-17-06, 05:47 PM	i don't like goths...seems to me like a whole lot of pretense for not a lot of actual individuality, which is the only reason i would assume they do it, of course that is because i know absolutely nothing about the 'movement' or if it even IS a movement....anyway, they can go do some bloodletting and cry about how much pain and misery they see in this world if they like...and if they happen to play D&D too, good for them.
arjomanes 04-17-06, 05:49 PM	The article, written by Jeff Minerd, a staff writer for MedPage Today Staff Writer is at fault, rather than the study. The study polled 1258 people who identify themselves as "goths," whether or not they themselves are familiar with the history of the goth movement. The study does not mention Dungeons and Dragons. In the categories in the study, they are almost all broken down along music lines: goth, punk, heavy metal, masher, nu-metal, skater, grunge, etc. Jeff Minerd, in writing the article, shows a vast ignorance about the goth culture, role-playing games, etc. In fact, he seems hardly qualified to be giving "expert" opinion on a subject like this when he is so ill-informed. It is uncertain whether he has an ulterior motive in bringing Dungeons and Dragons into the article, but Wizards would be well-suited to correct him and ask CNN to pull the link to the article based on the negative and ignorant correlation assumed by the article. If the article said that teens who play Battleship are more likely to join violent white supremacist organizations, Milton Bradley would request it be errated and an apology issued, I'm sure. He never mentions which sources report that Goth subculture in the U.S. was "inspired by fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragon(sic)." One can overlook fundamentalist preachers or parent organizations for villifying Dungeons and Dragons, since they never claim to be experts, but medical articles and CNN should show more journalistic integrity and professionalism to ensure that their articles are based in reality. The only harmful fantasy game here is the one being played by MedPage Today.
Arrowhen 04-17-06, 06:23 PM	Any publicity is good publicity.
Julian_Grimm 04-17-06, 06:25 PM	Odd, especially given that most players I know wear cowboy boots, John Deere hats and play D&D between hay and woodcutting sessions. Our background music is usually by Big and Rich or other Muzik Mafia members. And no, I'm not kidding.
Bruunwald 04-17-06, 07:24 PM	Odd, especially given that most players I know wear cowboy boots, John Deere hats and play D&D between hay and woodcutting sessions. Our background music is usually by Big and Rich or other Muzik Mafia members. And no, I'm not kidding. And most of the players I know are thirty-something, tie-wearing professionals with nice cars and liberal educations who listen to classical, old style techno or metal. Most of us are married or in longterm relationships, with happy kids in Kindergarten. None of us is or ever were, goth. But, obviously, it takes all kinds.
mvincent 04-17-06, 07:27 PM	Any publicity is good publicity.I'm inclined to agree. However, all of you just might be misreading the writer's intent. The line: "There is a Goth subculture in the U.S., reportedly inspired by fantasy games" Might actually have been intended to mean something more like: "There is another subculture of Goth in the U.S., reportedly inspired by fantasy games" Which is technically correct. In context (since the article doesn't seem to talk anymore about the roleplaying aspect), I have to think this line was merely noting a small subgroup, rather than describing the entire genre.
Bulletproof_Condom 04-17-06, 07:31 PM	Goth is a World of Darkness thing more than a D&D thing. I wouldn't worry. Indeed. You know what that probably was? The writer wanted people to understand what sort of games he was talking about and the most succinct way to do that is to use the most widely known such game as an example. D&D is insanely popular compared to other games like BESM and Vampire. The average reader of that particular article has probably never heard of Vampire the Masquerade, so using it as an example would be meaningless. But they probably have heard of Dungeons & Dragons. I wouldn't worry either.
rudie 04-17-06, 07:46 PM	Has anyone thought to email this guy about the article, maybe to get things cleared up a bit? Not that I care much, but I can see how people can get angry over such a general statement. Most of the goths I know are 9th grade girls who listen to "NIN" or "Cradle Of Filth", and wouldn't be caught dead playing D&D, the goth guys usually are the same way, there aren't many goths above 9th grade. They would probably be afraid being caught playing would ruin their reputation or something...plus, their tortured souls would rather be non conforming to vampire rather than D&D, that way they can let the world know how they truly feel and unleash the wrath of their black heart upon society and sucking the life out of those that opress their uniqueness. Also, they probably would rather spend money letting the world know how goth and non conformist they are at Hot Topic, rather than a hobby shop.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-17-06, 07:47 PM	MAybe he was talking about the original Goths, who in the early centures AD truly lived the lifestyle of the typical DnD adventurer; slaughtering people who had a different moral outlook, taking thier things and defiling thier homes.
Alac Luin 04-17-06, 08:21 PM	I wish more goth chicks were into DnD... I'm with you on this one :)
Verelor 04-17-06, 08:38 PM	And those early europena goths were a subculture offshoot of punk and were inspired by a tabletop game? Fat chance.
narukagami 04-17-06, 09:00 PM	I just want to add this to the record: Facts have little to do with News. Especially in America. This is absolutly the #1 factor all must remember when it comes to discussion of the news.
Arrowhen 04-17-06, 09:27 PM	Most of the goths I know are 9th grade girls who listen to "NIN" or "Cradle Of Filth", and wouldn't be caught dead playing D&D, the goth guys usually are the same way, there aren't many goths above 9th grade. And most of the goths I've ever known would take exception to every single one of those remarks. ;) "Goth" is one of those terms, like "alternative" or "indie" that's so vague as to be essentially meaningless.
cat_god 04-17-06, 09:49 PM	Apparently, I'm considered a Goth. I don't mind wearing actual colors, and I think it's more of the way I view the world and the cosmos. D&D had absolutely nothing to do with my outlook. And I take offense to the article, because I have to deal with certain people (*cough* my mom *cough*) saying that I should watch my soul when I play. This only seems to perpetuate that myth. :mad:
Julian_Grimm 04-17-06, 10:34 PM	Most of the goths I know are 9th grade girls who listen to "NIN" or "Cradle Of Filth... Just a side story cause it happened so recently... I worked with a guy that swore by Cradle of Filth and kept saying I should check them out. I happened by a used copy of one of their CD's so I picked it up and popped it into my car's CD player. After the initial cool factor of the intro music they screwed the album up by attempting to sing...well as much as unintellegable gutteral screeching can be called singing. About 3 minutes of this landed the jewel case in a gas station trashcan and the CD was sent sailing into a ditch. Ok, now you can go back to the thread.
a_psh 04-17-06, 11:20 PM	The Beeb does it a bit better, methinks. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4905898.stm) The increase in self-harm is definitely statistically significant, even with the small number of Goths participating in the study (25 of the 1258 participants were self-described Goths), but part of it can be a fluke. Still, I don't find it hard to believe that Goths self-harm (that's the study's doctor-ese for "cut") much more often than non-Goths. Both the article at the top of the thread and the article I linked to above discuss the fact that this may be a matter of self-selection: the researchers claim that it's likely that people who self-harm are more likely to become Goths (though the "Goth -> self-harm" hypothesis can't be conclusively falsified using just this study, it would seem). At any rate, the big claim is that Goth subculture might help people feel better about themselves, but that your kid is more likely to be having emotional problems if he considers himself a Goth. I don't know why the hell the Medpage article puts D&D in. I don't know why that clause is italicized. But, well, looking at the BBC article, the actual research itself is clearly neither anti-D&D nor anti-Goth.
BeyondFated 04-17-06, 11:31 PM	I wish more goth chicks were into DnD...I'm with you on this one :) Eh, Goth Chicks are too whiny for my tastes. And they only seem to come in two sizes: Rail thin, and Really Big. I have nothing against bigger ladies, hell I prefer them. But theres only so much person you can shove into goth-fishnet before I need to expel my lunch. Violently. *Shudder*
SinisterSeraph 04-17-06, 11:34 PM	Eh, Goth Chicks are too whiny for my tastes. And they only seem to come in two sizes: Rail thin, and Really Big. I have nothing against bigger ladies, hell I prefer them. But theres only so much person you can shove into goth-fishnet before I need to expel my lunch. Violently. *Shudder* I think the correct term is Gothapottamus.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-17-06, 11:39 PM	Eh, Goth Chicks are too whiny for my tastes. And they only seem to come in two sizes: Rail thin, and Really Big. I have nothing against bigger ladies, hell I prefer them. But theres only so much person you can shove into goth-fishnet before I need to expel my lunch. Violently. *Shudder* Are you talking actually fat, or 'modern fat' aka healthy. Because the goth girls I know gots the appropriate curves, which modren society hates with the fury of a thousand suns. (25 of the 1258 participants were self-described Goths) This is an AMAZINGLY tiny sample and I think its pretty irresponsible to trump up those findings that much from a sample of 25 people. It seems that they were doing a larger study and this was a secondary or tertiary measurment. 'Self described' is the most suspect part of the whole thing.
a_psh 04-18-06, 01:18 AM	'Self described' is the most suspect part of the whole thing.Hmm. IANAPsychologist, but think that asking what kinds of subcultures someone identifies with, even if he may not fit the classical definition of what it means to be a member of said subculture, is quite illuminating in studies like this, since you're essentially trying to understand someone's perceptions and emotions. However, if I may use your quote to finish my sentence, ...This is an AMAZINGLY tiny sample and I think its pretty irresponsible to trump up those findings that much from a sample of 25 people. It seems that they were doing a larger study and this was a secondary or tertiary measurment.We really can't conclude much from this other than that "there is some kind of statistical correlation that we should study further". Nothing about causes or motivations or even how much more likely Goths are to self-harm than non-Goths, though. If they define self-harm like I define self-harm (cutting on yourself, &c., and not, say, biting your lip), I find the straight-up 14% figure rather alarming. That's a lot of people dealing with their emotions in rather unhealthy ways... persistence is another issue, though: are these folks injuring themselves and then learning not to as they grow older, or is this something they'll do for decades to come? I think we can definitely say there's no assault on D&D from this, though.
lone_ranger_84 04-18-06, 08:40 AM	Odd, especially given that most players I know wear cowboy boots, John Deere hats and play D&D between hay and woodcutting sessions. Our background music is usually by Big and Rich or other Muzik Mafia members. And no, I'm not kidding. Julian_Grimm I totally have to agree with you Im a Cowboy from Iowa but we try to get a good campfire goin at night on a weekend and play or just play in the Garage. I dont know to many goths but my group i run with all country folk.
Lina_Inverse 04-18-06, 08:58 AM	Goths why yes, goths have a lot to do with D&D, i mean they killed people and took there stuff.... OH He ment goths, as in those people who mope and defile the good name of real goths, and somehow tend to be hawt. Pft, i got nothing.
striderII 04-18-06, 09:46 AM	I think the correct term is Gothapottamus. Yes, that is correct. For those wanting to view these creatures in their natural habitat, you simply must troll area Vampire LARPs - sooner or later, you'll flush them out. Quite overweight, stuffed precariously into fishnet stockings, leather mini-skirts, and leather bodices - yep, that's them, alright. Disclaimer: This is not an attack on such people, nor is it meant to be a definitive answer on your "typical" female LARPer. I know many, many more women who do not fit that mold than the reverse. Seriously, LARPs are great places to find more female gamers, if that's what you're looking for. strider
DrMorganes 04-18-06, 10:26 AM	Are you talking actually fat, or 'modern fat' aka healthy. Because the goth girls I know gots the appropriate curves, which modren society hates with the fury of a thousand suns. Preach on, Brother Vallingrade! As the father of two young girls (and husband of a properly-proportioned woman), I alternate between shock and disgust at what our society labels "attractive". Most runway models look like 12-year-old boys. Ick... As far as the article goes, I'm not so much concerned about the content as the general sense of apathy in response. Part of the reason, in my opinion, that RPGs in general and D&D in specific continue to be viewed as "varient/devient" is the folks who play them tend to have a rather "f-u" attitude toward the rest of the world. Taking the time to take a stand would, as far as I'm concerned, help move the game a bit closer to the mainstream. **wanders off to look for an email address**
Arrowhen 04-18-06, 12:52 PM	Are you talking actually fat, or 'modern fat' aka healthy. Because the goth girls I know gots the appropriate curves, which modren society hates with the fury of a thousand suns. Amazingly enough, I think we just agreed on something!
KathlinTheElf 04-18-06, 01:11 PM	I wish more goth chicks were into DnD... Well, hello there! :D I think a heck lot more like a goth than I actually look.. (parents, pfft!) I'm the only one in the group who is goth.. the rest of them are just normal or geeks.
Rumple_Cragstan 04-18-06, 01:19 PM	I think that 'self-reported' is the main problem in this case, as well as the tiny ass sample that the whole thing is drawn from (I'm talking about the 25 here). The problem is that there's so many people nowadays that just call themselves one subculture or another because it sounds cool, or because everyone else is one, without making any real effort to learn about or even become a real part of the subculure. They think its some kind of middle-school club, where you're a respected part of it just by signing your name on the dotted line. Anyone who has been out into the scene will tell you that Goths, while scary-lookin' to some people, are amoung the friendliest and most mentally healthy people in the world. No insane ammounts of diet pills for the women, no steroids for the men. And they also tend to be a very supportive community, which totally offsets the self-injury claims. I think that what actually happened here was that they happened to find a few of the (all too common) Emo kids that won't admit that they're Emo, even though its the music they listen to, the clothes they wear, and the way they act. But yeh, its all just a matter of stupid people making stupid assumptions, be it the researchers or the kids that took the survey.
Arrowhen 04-18-06, 01:50 PM	The problem is that there's so many people nowadays that just call themselves one subculture or another because it sounds cool, or because everyone else is one, without making any real effort to learn about or even become a real part of the subculure. That's what happens to pretty much every subculture after its first generation.
shadowrender 04-18-06, 02:22 PM	hi there, im goth and I play d&d ive seen a lot of bad things about what people label goths in my personal opinion most goth are the nices people around, yes im into the all black and spikes thing, but im more of a funny guy then an all depressed im-going-to-kill-myself type of person. In our gaming group im the only goth and main DM (we have 2 DM's due to having like 9 players :D ) the rest are 4 metalheads, 4 geeks, 1 really realy weird guy and 2 people that say they don't really like d&df but they keep coming for 2 months now im not really into LARP or white wolf, to much politics, although i do enjoy playing evil campaigns and always play something undead focused (but thats me :D ) im a goth because i think and do stuff like a goth apparently, this was told to me by a few friends on seperate accounts? but most goths i know are cheery and fun, in contradiction to the more popular errm group in our school wich is almost like a new nazi (can i say that here? if i cant il get it away immediatly) movement. PS on the more goth girls in d&d, im trying to get a friend of mine to play it to :D
narukagami 04-18-06, 02:31 PM	Not to put goths down or any fad or social subculture for that matter, but can someone explain how being a non-conformist means I have to look like you, dress like you, act like you, talk like you, and listen to the same music you do? Isn't that the very definition of conformity? Don't those who are into the whole non-conformity thing realize they're just conforming to something else?
tallforadwarf 04-18-06, 02:41 PM	Not to put goths down or any fad or social subculture for that matter, but can someone explain how being a non-conformist means I have to look like you, dress like you, act like you, talk like you, and listen to the same music you do? Isn't that the very definition of conformity? Don't those who are into the whole non-conformity thing realize they're just conforming to something else? Here Here! I remember the Goths I hung out with for a while (or rather, I seemed to attract...) laughed when I said I loved Elvis. No one ever said "Hail to the Goth - baby!" Peace, tfad
Pegasos989 04-18-06, 02:50 PM	Yup. The goths are common subject of mockery in finland and not much more. Why is that? Cause they seem to be so easy to mock. All dressing the same way, listening to similar music, etc. it is hard to not laugh at them. :D Maybe I wouldn't think them so amusing if I knew more of them, but I don't and that is all that really matters. They are so easy to connect to... Anything. suicides, cutting their wrists, poor gothic poetry, annoying angst... Yet, this is the first time I've seen them connected to DnD. Also, the first time that I've seen them being connected to White Wolf's world of darkness! If that is as correct as everything else people think about them, we have no idea. Frankly, I don't care. If I think that they listen to crappy music, wear stupid looking clothes and angst all the time, it is my opinion and it doesn't matter if it is correct or not. And I don't see the big thing about connecting goths to DnD? So what? I am a videogamer. For years I have seen people accusing videogames of crime, hate, rotten milk and irresponsible youngsters. They are all wrong, but that doesn't matter anymore than my opinions of goths. Wrong or right, some people are stupid and others don't care and that is fine as it is.
BlaineTog 04-18-06, 02:58 PM	I find this topic amusing for interesting reasons. I wish more goth chicks were into DnD...One of my best friends is a goth chick who's into D&D, as well as pretty much every other RPG, board, and card game. The more you know... Not to put goths down or any fad or social subculture for that matter, but can someone explain how being a non-conformist means I have to look like you, dress like you, act like you, talk like you, and listen to the same music you do? Isn't that the very definition of conformity? Don't those who are into the whole non-conformity thing realize they're just conforming to something else?Humans conform. It's what we do. (You can get away from it, but almost no one ever does.) The idea behind these subcultures is to conform to something other than popular society.
shadowrender 04-18-06, 03:51 PM	Yup. The goths are common subject of mockery in finland and not much more. Why is that? Cause they seem to be so easy to mock. All dressing the same way, listening to similar music, etc. it is hard to not laugh at them. :D Maybe I wouldn't think them so amusing if I knew more of them, but I don't and that is all that really matters. They are so easy to connect to... Anything. suicides, cutting their wrists, poor gothic poetry, annoying angst... Yet, this is the first time I've seen them connected to DnD. well maybe the goths in finnland are, here (in begium) where i live we dont dress the same, that would be kinda stupid you can mock me all you want, i stopped caring if someone laughed at me long ago. for your Information, goth people are least likely to commit suicide then other people, you are thinking of emo's (if thats what theyre called, its hard to keep track nowadays) oh talking about poor poetry, not everyone writes bad, why dont you read some of people who can actually write stuff, and what is poor to you might be fantastic to someone else. this is not an assault on you in any way, im merely annoyed at you jabbing at what i like, respecting opinions is one of the things people should do more :D PS: angst is one of the few words in the english language i never quite understood could someone give me veryfication of what it actually means, i know it has something to do with fear but no further idea (yes sorry don't have a good dictionary near me sry)
Alac Luin 04-19-06, 09:13 PM	PS: angst is one of the few words in the english language i never quite understood could someone give me veryfication of what it actually means, i know it has something to do with fear but no further idea (yes sorry don't have a good dictionary near me sry) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angst I think it appears used more as "frustration" then "fear". Oh, I'll also defend the Goth chicks that I know, most of them are not of the rail thin or large size. (size 5-6 or 7-8 doesn't qualify as either of these does it?)
caeruleus 04-20-06, 01:06 AM	Not to put goths down or any fad or social subculture for that matter, but can someone explain how being a non-conformist means I have to look like you, dress like you, act like you, talk like you, and listen to the same music you do? Isn't that the very definition of conformity? Don't those who are into the whole non-conformity thing realize they're just conforming to something else? The difference is that they don't conform to the status quo, which is the main concern that many non-conformists have.
Lotus Crane 04-20-06, 01:57 AM	As far as I know, most D&D players are just generic geeks, and most standard goths listen to heavy metal and/or emo and hang out at Hot Topic, without ever touching a pen & paper RPG. For the ultra-specialized geek-goth hybrid sub-culture, the media should have investigated World of Darkness games like Vampire and Werewolf, rather than D&D.
HelriderSupreme 04-20-06, 03:00 AM	Julian_Grimm I totally have to agree with you Im a Cowboy from Iowa but we try to get a good campfire goin at night on a weekend and play or just play in the Garage. I dont know to many goths but my group i run with all country folk. lol yeppi ca ya mf.... hehe seriously folks... we neeed more country-line D&D lol