Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hawkinsthedm 07-23-07, 07:12 PM	My friends state that the +1 feat/+4 skill points at level 1, and +1 skill point per level that humans receive are more powerful than any other +0 LA races. I am not sure that I agree with this, and I was wondering if anyone else had any thoughts on this.
Fatalis_902 07-23-07, 07:42 PM	Admittedly, the free feat and skill points are ALWAYS useful, and humans have no universal downsides. So, yes, human is never a particularly bad choice of race, but other races have other abilities. Elves get secret-door senses, low-lightvision, and skill bonuses, dwarves get stone-cunning, darkvision, and a handful of other cool abilities, both races get weapon proficiencies. Halflings and Gnomes have their own sets of abilities, and Half-Elves get bonuses to diplomacy and gather info, as well as low-light vision, and skill bonuses to the same skills as elves. Humans are anything but over-powered, or better than all the other races. They have some cool stuff, sure, but other races have other abilities, and this fact keeps them all on par.
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 07:47 PM	All else being equal, there's nothing better than a human at LA+0. However, things aren't equal, and there are several options humans can't qualify for. You know how the PHB describes humans as "everyone's second-best friends"? Well, it's sort of like that. They can be good at anything, and are the best at some things, with no real downside. However, there are many things that another race would be better than human for, although they'd probably come with enough downsides to put them behind humans at almost everything else. There's mechanical reason why they're the most common race in D&D, but also not the ONLY race. ;)
Vharuck 07-23-07, 07:58 PM	Let me tell you, as a player of a gnome with low-light vision in a party where everyone else has darkvision, I feel stupid in deep caves when we're trying to be sneaky and I'm carrying a sunrod. I would hate to have a human's vision.
key 07-24-07, 01:22 AM	My friends state that the +1 feat/+4 skill points at level 1, and +1 skill point per level that humans receive are more powerful than any other +0 LA races. At age 100, a human is probably not as powerful as an elf. Probably not at 500, 750, or 1000 years old either. Even if my character never gets that old (as I won't play enough for it to happen), I like knowing that as an elf, he could grow that old naturally and that all the while he won't show any signs of aging.
High Octane 07-24-07, 01:59 AM	My friends state that the +1 feat/+4 skill points at level 1, and +1 skill point per level that humans receive are more powerful than any other +0 LA races. I am not sure that I agree with this, and I was wondering if anyone else had any thoughts on this. If Lesser Aasimars are as powerful as I have heard, then no. +2 wisdom and +2 charisma with no penalties? Lesser Tieflings also sound incredible. They would get the same skill point boost in the form of an intelligence boost and +2 dexterity which is considerably better than most early feats. The -2 charisma hardly balances that. I never found out what makes these guys "lesser" than the regular aasimars and tieflings.
Nom 07-24-07, 03:30 AM	Every other race except half elf gets a +2/-2 to ability scores. Generally, one couples the +2 with a high score to make it higher and puts the -2 with a common score that won't matter as much. This is seen clearest with point buy: compare 16/12 with +2/-2 and without. With +2/-2, 16/12 costs 12 points (14/14 plus mods), while it normally costs 14 points. This gets more pronounced with the more expensive scores. Humans are generic. Most other races are specialised in some way. If you play to the speciality, they generally do better than a human (as Tempest said).
Forfeit 07-24-07, 10:31 AM	The deal is that any other race can get more skills and feats with levels, but humans cant get the special powers other races have.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-24-07, 12:32 PM	Dwarves are more powerful than humans.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-24-07, 01:48 PM	Dwarves are more powerful than humans. Agreed. In a number of areas, it's better to have a human, but dwarves rock most everywhere else.
Rakor 07-24-07, 01:52 PM	I always find in D&D that I am desperately short on feats and usually skills. I tend to play humans because racial abilities are nice but 7 feats over 6 just sucks me in every time.
hawkinsthedm 07-24-07, 02:28 PM	My personal favorite races to play: tiefling, dwarf, and halfling. Though I have an epic natural were-tiger that is really cool too.
LCD2YOU 07-24-07, 02:37 PM	(sarcasm=On) Humans are the best. Why? We are better than all of those half-breeds! Elves? That's what you get when you cross a monkey with a peacock. Dwarves? That's what you get when you bury the outhouse remains deep into the earth. Halflings? A mixture of Ferrets and Sprites. Gnomes? What you get when you mate a Dwarf and a Halfling. Half-Orcs? Many believe those dreadful things are the (mis)union between humans and Orcs. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are the progeny of elves and Dwarves! Humans are the best! Keep the Human Species pure! (sarcasm=off)
zoinks69 07-24-07, 02:57 PM	One thing I've realized -- humans get a free feat..at level one! Now, if they got a free feat "sometime" (in other words, at a level of their choosing), they'd be really amazing. Given the pre-reqs for some of the really good feats (usually X skill points, a host of feats, caster level X), the free feat at 1 isn't really that great. Yes, it helps some builds and certainly gives a boost at low levels. Compare it to dwarf: 1. Darkvision 2. Host of save bonuses 3. +2 Con 4. Free weapon proficiencies 5. Tumble in full plate 6. Minor bonuses vs. goblins/orcs For the cost of: 1. -2 Cha 2. -10 feet movement It's my opinion that dwarves really push the limits of LA +0.
Tempest Stormwind 07-24-07, 04:09 PM	Point of fact: While dwarves are strong (I'm not disputing this, although I do feel they're not worth LA+1), they do not get free weapon proficiencies. Weapon familiarity merely reclassifies weapons for them; a dwarf wizard can't pick up a dwarven waraxe and expect to use it. It only seems like proficiciency because dwarves are built like tanks and thusly appear most often with warrior classes, which almost always have martial proficiency. The only PHB race with actual free proficiencies would be the elf.
High Octane 07-24-07, 06:49 PM	5. Tumble in full plate No they cant. They still take the armor check penalty.
aotrscommander 07-24-07, 07:09 PM	No, D&D humans the same inherently inferior, maggot-ridden, worthless, smug, arrogant, humanocentic and generally verminous over-evolved monkey-morons as they are everywhere else; whose primary reeming trait is they are not Vampires or Shi'Ar. What? Oh, you mean mechanically better! Oh, well, that's different. Personally, I prefer the extra feat over most of the other racial abilities. Since 3.x, humans have become far and away the most common choice for characters; following Elves (and Half-Elves prior to 3.0) and to a lesser extent Dwarves and oddly, Tieflings. Yes, we've had more Tieflings since 3.x than Halflings, and nearly as many as Halflings/Hobbits since I started gaming combined. Oh and one Gnome and one Half-Orc, both more years ago than I care to fathom...
hawkinsthedm 07-24-07, 08:02 PM	...oddly, Tieflings. Yes, we've had more Tieflings since 3.x... Well, I think the reason I like Tieflings is because of the NPC one you run into while playing Baldur's Gate II. Plus, there is such a cool variety physical characteristics that you can use to display their fiendish heritage.
VrecknidjX 07-24-07, 08:15 PM	I wonder. If someone proposed an alternate race, and it had +1 feat, +1 skill point per level, a useful "class" option for multiclassing, it just might seem to be more powerful than other LA+0 races. Dave
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-24-07, 09:35 PM	I wonder. If someone proposed an alternate race, and it had +1 feat, +1 skill point per level, a useful "class" option for multiclassing, it just might seem to be more powerful than other LA+0 races. Dave No, it wouldn't. There's plenty of other LA +0 races that are far better than that.
MerlintheTuna 07-25-07, 12:41 AM	No they cant. They still take the armor check penalty.They can attempt to, even if the ACP will get in the way. Other races explicitly cannot, as the rules stipulate that the skill can't be used "if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot." Which, oddly enough, means that even a Hasted human in full plate can't Tumble, since his enhanced speed has been reduced (even though he still ends up faster than his base land speed). It's a goofy, redundant rule, but it's not alone. Grappling and tripping have similar stipulations, once again hitting characters with the problem of "even if you can, you can't, so nyar."
Optimized_Commoner 07-25-07, 04:51 AM	Humans are slightly better. However all things being equal, most players will pick the race that best suits their character class, so it evens out in the end. This is the same reason why flaws (unearthed arcana) are more negative than feats are positive.
runestar 07-25-07, 05:55 AM	I recall the Simbul once posting a revised version of the human race. Essentially, in addition to its existing benefits, it also has the equivalent of able learner, and an additional bonus feat to be chosen from a very narrow list of feats (mostly those +2 to 2 skills feats, but had the occasional regional feat like magical training). How do you think this stacks up?:)
Anaxander 07-25-07, 06:12 AM	Strongheart halflings are fairly powerful too: Free bonus feat, small size, +2 Dex, -2 Str, and some minor benefits.
Kensan_Oni 07-25-07, 11:49 AM	Mechanicly, the best race is Halflings. They have superior saves, really don't take any penalties for their small size (Outside of weapon damage), gain a better ac then most other characters, and generally are pretty awesome. Humans are the second best, as they allow for multiclassing, easy enterance into prestige classes, and basicly stay ahead of other characters with the same stats. Everything that doesn't have a half in it's name falls behind humans somewhere in the power curve.
hawkinsthedm 07-25-07, 11:51 AM	Strongheart halflings are fairly powerful too: Free bonus feat, small size, +2 Dex, -2 Str, and some minor benefits. Ya, they get all the benefits of a normal (lightfoot) halfling; except that they receive the bonus feat in place of the +1 to all saves.
Stormonu 07-25-07, 01:09 PM	Mechanicly, the best race is Halflings. They have superior saves, really don't take any penalties for their small size (Outside of weapon damage), gain a better ac then most other characters, and generally are pretty awesome. How many folks know that haflings actually end up with only an overall +1 Climb bonus (due to the -2 Str) and a -5 to Jump (due to 20 ft. base speed and -2 Str)? Halflings are sneaky fun, but I still like humans better. A well-chosen bonus feat is always helpful.
Gavinfoxx 07-25-07, 05:03 PM	Well there are some feats that are better at other classes. Whisper Gnomes make great sneaky types. Sun Elfs make great Wizardly Types. Star Elves make great bards and Sorcerers. Dragonwrought kobolds are plenty fun. Gold Dwarfs make great clerics. Warforged are really cool for lots of types of characters, and make great artificers. Elan are pretty useful for psionic campaigns... really there are a ton of good races. they just are usually quite specialized and good for only specific classes!
UltimateReality 07-25-07, 05:38 PM	I never found out what makes these guys "lesser" than the regular aasimars and tieflings.Lesser planetouched are found somewhere in the back of Player's Guide to Faerun -- page 191 or so IIRC. They are stripped of their outsider type and all resultant traits. They lose darkvision and the weapon and shield proficiencies, but not much else. Oh, and they're affected by spells that affect humanoids. Totally an equal tradeoff, right? :D
hawkinsthedm 07-25-07, 06:08 PM	Lesser planetouched are found somewhere in the back of Player's Guide to Faerun -- page 191 or so IIRC. They are stripped of their outsider type and all resultant traits. They lose darkvision and the weapon and shield proficiencies, but not much else. Oh, and they're affected by spells that affect humanoids. Totally an equal tradeoff, right? :D The thing is, that with the lesser races introduced in the appendix of Players Guide to Faerun is that they have negative levels equal to their LAs. They then gain their LAs back along with lost abilities instead of levels equal to their LA. The only real purpose of lesser races is so you can play one at level one. I guess your GM could decide to leave the lesser races as they are and then let you gain levels instead of regaining lost abilities and LA.
Holy_Beholder 07-25-07, 06:18 PM	Humans are the best! Keep the Human Species pure! Too late now, look at all the half races. I don't even think D&D has species any more, pretty much everything can interbreed in someway or another, through templates, so all D&D has is races. The only real exception here is constructs and undead, neither of which are species(Unless a TV, Radio, and Flying Corpse are species. They are objects.)
hawkinsthedm 07-25-07, 06:59 PM	The only real exception here is constructs and undead, neither of which are species... Actually, you have half-golems in MM2.
Far_Traveler 07-25-07, 07:07 PM	How many folks know that haflings actually end up with only an overall +1 Climb bonus (due to the -2 Str) and a -5 to Jump (due to 20 ft. base speed and -2 Str)? Halflings are sneaky fun, but I still like humans better. A well-chosen bonus feat is always helpful. Nitpick: for every 10 feet of speed BELOW 30, it's a -6 penalty to jump, whereas you get a +4 bonus for each 10 feet above 30 speed
High Octane 07-25-07, 07:37 PM	Actually, you have half-golems in MM2. I don't think these are made through the natural process or progeneration. They are actually a human or humanoid who had themselves augmented. A closer description would be cyborg. I mean when the description of a half-golem begins, it isn't "When a momma clay golem and a daddy human love each other very much..."
Dog_As_A_Devil_Deified 07-25-07, 08:06 PM	I never found out what makes these guys "lesser" than the regular aasimars and tieflings. They are not really "lesser" in actual play. For planetouched the only difference is that they are affected by spells that target humanoids as well as outsiders...big deal. They can be charmed by Charm Person or reduced by Reduce Person *and* banished by Banishment. In my games that comes up once in a blue moon anyway. The real limitation for me personally is that the inclusion of "lesser" versions is an optional rule, and the optional rules states "[i]f you use these lesser versions...you should use them across the board—for NPCs as well as player characters. Thus, a party that includes a lesser drow should never encounter drow from the Monster Manual in your game. Instead, all drow in your campaign should be lesser drow." In other words, if your DM allows them at all, then all aasimar and tieflings, everywhere, become "lesser" versions. My game world is relatively stable, and so I don't rejigger the stats on the races from campaign to campaign just because a player decides he wants to play a "lesser" race. So I tend to not allow that optional rule.
hawkinsthedm 07-25-07, 08:13 PM	I mean when the description of a half-golem begins, it isn't "When a momma clay golem and a daddy human love each other very much..." :heehee :rofl:
Nathreet 07-25-07, 08:38 PM	Dwarves, gnomes and maybe halflings are better than humans Elves, half-elves and half-orcs are worse, but still okay. Plus arcane archer is a nice prestige class. Even then you're still better off taking an elven subrace. There are a number of good elf subraces. Mostly b/c they get a bonus/penalty to 2 stats, not 1. That makes it easier to grab the stats you want for a specific character concept. Orcs likewise are a good LA +0 choice, thanks to the +4 strength. Unless you play them outdoors. Then that -1 AB reduces the +2 AB from strength to +1 overall. Goblins aren't too shabby either. Kobolds just plain suck. I've tried to find a good angle for them, and I'm totally at a loss. They just don't have any significant redeeming qualities to exploit to make up for their big penalties. That is unless you use those books with all the special kobold feats.
High Octane 07-25-07, 08:45 PM	They are not really "lesser" in actual play. For planetouched the only difference is that they are affected by spells that target humanoids as well as outsiders...big deal. They can be charmed by Charm Person or reduced by Reduce Person *and* banished by Banishment. In my games that comes up once in a blue moon anyway. The real limitation for me personally is that the inclusion of "lesser" versions is an optional rule, and the optional rules states "[i]f you use these lesser versions...you should use them across the board—for NPCs as well as player characters. Thus, a party that includes a lesser drow should never encounter drow from the Monster Manual in your game. Instead, all drow in your campaign should be lesser drow." In other words, if your DM allows them at all, then all aasimar and tieflings, everywhere, become "lesser" versions. My game world is relatively stable, and so I don't rejigger the stats on the races from campaign to campaign just because a player decides he wants to play a "lesser" race. So I tend to not allow that optional rule. That's it?? No way I'm allowing those races!
Deamhan 07-25-07, 09:16 PM	That's it?? No way I'm allowing those races! Actually, its not what I'd call terribly unbalancing. Losing immunity to all those spells, free prof with all martial weapons, while still keeping the vulnerablity to being banished isnt fun. And tiefling (and to a lesser extent aasimar) were rather weak +1 LA races to start with. Compare them to a dwarf and they don't exactly come out being that awesome. People seem to underestimate how much losing a class level sucks. Horrid if you're a caster and even if you're not you're still down hit points, gain all your feats and abilities a level later than your allies, stat bonuses, etc. All because you have +2 to stat over and beyond the PHB races and a couple of minor elemental resistances.
Erato 07-25-07, 09:35 PM	I don't think people have said that they are powerful enough to have a +1 LA, only that they are too powerful not to. There's a subtle difference. :)
High Octane 07-25-07, 10:32 PM	I don't think people have said that they are powerful enough to have a +1 LA, only that they are too powerful not to. There's a subtle difference. :) Yeah. That. And sorry, but +2 int AND +2 dex modified only by -2 charisma doesn't cut it for a +0 LA. The dwarf only get +2 constitution, and they have a reduced land speed in addition to that -2 charisma. Everything else is situational at best.
UltimateReality 07-25-07, 11:51 PM	The thing is, that with the lesser races introduced in the appendix of Players Guide to Faerun is that they have negative levels equal to their LAs. Um, I must respectfully disagree. Page 190 says: "As an alternative to the use of negative level adjustments...this variant offers different versions of powerful races that aren't as powerful. A 'lesser drow', for example, doesn't have all the traits and abilities of a standard drow character, but she can be played as a 1st-level character right alongside characters of other races. Since such characters never have to worry about level adjustments, they are sometimes more enjoyable to play than a character with a negative level adjustment, even if they lack some exciting features of the race."
hawkinsthedm 07-26-07, 12:01 PM	Um, I must respectfully disagree. Page 190 says: "As an alternative to the use of negative level adjustments...this variant offers different versions of powerful races that aren't as powerful. A 'lesser drow', for example, doesn't have all the traits and abilities of a standard drow character, but she can be played as a 1st-level character right alongside characters of other races. Since such characters never have to worry about level adjustments, they are sometimes more enjoyable to play than a character with a negative level adjustment, even if they lack some exciting features of the race." Ah, I see. I was just skimming it and missed that part! Thanks for pointing it out. What do you guys think about making elves humanoids with the fey (or feytouched) subtype, similar to the rules the lesser planetouched races? I always thought that Elves should be fey (and I believe that they were in earlier editions of D&D). I mean, it wouldn't be much more than flavor, but...
UltimateReality 07-26-07, 03:14 PM	What do you guys think about making elves humanoids with the fey (or feytouched) subtype, similar to the rules the lesser planetouched races? I always thought that Elves should be fey (and I believe that they were in earlier editions of D&D). I mean, it wouldn't be much more than flavor, but...A fey type or subtype isn't that bad...they already have low-light vision, and most classes are proficient with simple weapons. If they're a type, then watch out as they are no longer humanoid and not subject to spells that affect only humanoids. I would opt for Humanoid (Elf, Fey) myself.
hawkinsthedm 07-26-07, 04:49 PM	They are not really "lesser" in actual play. For planetouched the only difference is that they are affected by spells that target humanoids as well as outsiders...big deal. They can be charmed by Charm Person or reduced by Reduce Person *and* banished by Banishment. In my games that comes up once in a blue moon anyway. I still wonder where humanoids with the planetouched subtype end up being banished to. Do they get thrown into a random location on that plane (01-60 on d%) or to a random plane (61-100) as if they had failed the DC 15 Int check when trying to use an Amulet of the Planes?
Deamhan 07-26-07, 08:41 PM	Yeah. That. And sorry, but +2 int AND +2 dex modified only by -2 charisma doesn't cut it for a +0 LA. The dwarf only get +2 constitution, and they have a reduced land speed in addition to that -2 charisma. Everything else is situational at best. Major Dwarf benifits: Bonus to con (always useful, no matter what class you are) Not slowed by armor (though balanced by their already being slower, but still. They move the same speed as a human in fullplate without actually being encumbered by it) Darkvision 60ft A total of three different +2 skill bonuses (situational) A bonus against *all* creatures of the giant type, and an attack bonus against some of the most common low to mid level enemies in the game Edit: Forgot their +4 bonus against bullrushing, tripping, and generally falling down and weapon familiarity +2 on saves vs poison +2 on saves vs spells and spell like abilities Note the last two. When your players make saving throws, what, exactly causes them to make said saving throws? I'll bet eight times out of ten its a spell. Once of those ten is poison, and that tenth time is something else. The only real heavily situational bonsues they have are the skill bonuses as they work in very specific circumstances. Their 'favored enemy' bonuses are so broad they are getting those quite often. Drawbacks? 10 feet less speed and -2 to a stat that is mechanically only useful to bards and sorcerers. Dwarves rock. Hard. Edit: And I'd guess the planetouched would get banished to whatever outsider they were linked to. Tieflings to the abyss or hell, aasimar to celestial planes, gensai to their elemental plane etc
Stormonu 07-27-07, 02:23 AM	Nitpick: for every 10 feet of speed BELOW 30, it's a -6 penalty to jump, whereas you get a +4 bonus for each 10 feet above 30 speed Nitpick back: +2 racial to jump, - 6 for 20 ft. speed, -1 for Str modification = -5.
High Octane 07-27-07, 02:56 AM	Major Dwarf benifits: Bonus to con (always useful, no matter what class you are) Not slowed by armor (though balanced by their already being slower, but still. They move the same speed as a human in fullplate without actually being encumbered by it) Darkvision 60ft A total of three different +2 skill bonuses (situational) A bonus against *all* creatures of the giant type, and an attack bonus against some of the most common low to mid level enemies in the game Edit: Forgot their +4 bonus against bullrushing, tripping, and generally falling down and weapon familiarity +2 on saves vs poison +2 on saves vs spells and spell like abilities Note the last two. When your players make saving throws, what, exactly causes them to make said saving throws? I'll bet eight times out of ten its a spell. Once of those ten is poison, and that tenth time is something else. The only real heavily situational bonsues they have are the skill bonuses as they work in very specific circumstances. Their 'favored enemy' bonuses are so broad they are getting those quite often. Drawbacks? 10 feet less speed and -2 to a stat that is mechanically only useful to bards and sorcerers. Dwarves rock. Hard. Edit: And I'd guess the planetouched would get banished to whatever outsider they were linked to. Tieflings to the abyss or hell, aasimar to celestial planes, gensai to their elemental plane etc Lesser tieflings also get darkvision, last I remember. You have to remember though, the fact is that con is good to every class BUT it is not the primary stat for any class. Dexterity is one of the primary stats for rogues and rangers. Intelligence is the primary casting stat for wizards and is the source of both skill points and the stat used for many of the rogues skills. It isn't broken for every class, but being broken for some is enough really. To be honest though, If the +Int was dropped, the race would pretty much be fine. Granted the spell like abilities would be pretty strong at low levels. As for the Lesser Aasimar, +2 wisdom AND +2 Charisma with no penalties is pretty much unacceptable.
Stormonu 07-27-07, 03:05 AM	I still wonder where humanoids with the planetouched subtype end up being banished to. Do they get thrown into a random location on that plane (01-60 on d%) or to a random plane (61-100) as if they had failed the DC 15 Int check when trying to use an Amulet of the Planes? Edit: And I'd guess the planetouched would get banished to whatever outsider they were linked to. Tieflings to the abyss or hell, aasimar to celestial planes, gensai to their elemental plane etc Plane-touched are natives. They can't be banished to another plane while on the Prime Material Plane. They can be banished off other planes to the Prime Material, just like any other Prime Material native on a foreign plane.
hawkinsthedm 07-27-07, 12:10 PM	Plane-touched are natives. They can't be banished to another plane while on the Prime Material Plane. They can be banished off other planes to the Prime Material, just like any other Prime Material native on a foreign plane. If you banish an Outsider (native) then they also can't be banished from the Prime Material Plane if they were born there, so why did they make the distinction in the Player's Guide to Faerun that a Humanoid (planetouched) could be banished?
Scipion Emilien 07-27-07, 01:00 PM	From the FRCS page 18 A spell that drives outsiders back to their home plane does not affect planetouch character (probably because they are native from Toril), but banishement, a spell that removes an outsider from the caster plane without specifying a return to the outsider plane - would work just fine
Scipion Emilien 07-27-07, 01:31 PM	As for the human, they are the best race for those that like well-rounded character. For those who prefer to have a specialist character, others race present better option. And personnaly, i like the human of 3.x edition. At least at the table now there is human character. Unlike 2e edition where everyone was playing a non-human race because they were more advantage to be non-human than human. (Add to this the fact that my 2e edition group wasn't using multiclass rule because of their complexitie, it was often turning into a non-human fest).
Deamhan 07-27-07, 04:11 PM	As for the Lesser Aasimar, +2 wisdom AND +2 Charisma with no penalties is pretty much unacceptable. Yea, the Aasimar are abit much. My point was, though, that side by side are tieflings really that much more powerful than dwarves? They get two stat bonuses, admittedly, but at the same time dwarves are in essence sitting on a +2 bonus to all saves. Of course then we have races like the half-orc that need like... a level bonus adjustment or something cause damn they bite.
hawkinsthedm 07-27-07, 04:56 PM	Of course then we have races like the half-orc that need like... a level bonus adjustment or something cause damn they bite. And kobolds are even worse off then half-orcs!
Stormonu 07-27-07, 08:03 PM	A spell that drives outsiders back to their home plane does not affect planetouch character (probably because they are native from Toril), but banishement, a spell that removes an outsider from the caster plane without specifying a return to the outsider plane - would work just fine What, did the Sage write this? It's a direct contradiction of the banishment spell. From the SRD for Banishment It enables you to force extraplanar creatures out of your home plane. As many as 2 Hit Dice of creatures per caster level can be banished. extraplanar subtype does not equal native subtype.
navar100 07-27-07, 08:31 PM	I wouldn't say human is the most powerful LA +0 race, let alone of just the PHB, but at least unlike earlier editions, it doesn't suck to play one. The extra Feat and skill points make a big difference.
WizO_Cat 07-27-07, 10:11 PM	Moved to more appropriate board.
Deamhan 07-27-07, 11:15 PM	And kobolds are even worse off then half-orcs! Kobolds ain't really that bad, especially with Races of the Dragon around. Their stat penalties are kinda painful, but they do have what amounts to the highest starting 'base' armor class thanks to their dex, size, and natural armor along with that medium size movement on a small creature. I'd definitely qualify half-orcs for the 'bottom spot' on race power.
Papermonday 07-27-07, 11:55 PM	Well I've always loved that extra feat^^ Feats, I can't get enough of them :D
Mojo_Rat 07-28-07, 01:36 AM	I have always felt humans were quite strong, but i think alot of it depends what level the game is taking place at. at low levels that extra feat and the skill points (especially if your playing a skill point deficient class) is a much bigger deal than it is at say level 15. It allows the human to qualify for things alot faster. I think they are a great race.
cato 07-28-07, 02:21 AM	Humans are the bread and butter of optimized builds: Where to begin: Clerics can get divine metamagic 3 levels sooner, Druids dont really need the extra feat but it helps them more than any other race in core books. Mages: can you say metamagic and prc prerequisite? Rogues: tons of prerequisites there. I mean each and every class benefits much more from a feat than from the +2 bonuses to a stat. The extra skill point can often let you use int as a dump stat at times and still have just enough skill points for your main skills. Also lets not forget the RP advantage of being able to fit in in 95% of societies as a human. p.s Unless of course your DM allows anthropomorphic bats ^^
LazyNinja 07-28-07, 05:49 PM	I can't remember the last time in 3.x that I played anything but a human... and I hate it. Sure, I'm often sucked in by the feat and skill point (some builds just demand it), but it's the multiclass rules that screw over my character concepts. My biggest pet peeve with D&D is when flavor text restricts mechanics. I mean, you can't splash a few fighter levels to buff up your elvish ranger without spilling your XP all over the place. Why? Because all elves everywhere (PHB) find it easier to train as wizards. Even if your elf was raised by human barbarians after his village was razed by dragons and he's never even see magic performed or glanced at a spellbook, he's destined to be a wizard. Some favored classes seem to make sense. Dwarf fighters could use a CON bonus. Halfling rogues, hell, even half-orcs barbarians, even though half-orcs fall short in almost every other way. But Elves and gnomes? Bard? I understand the idea behind multiclassing restrictions. Sure, it's harder to juggle seven jobs than to stick to one. But I propose relaxing them a bit, to allow more flexible characters and (more important) RP concepts that are still viable mechanically. Human and half-elves remain the same. (Let's not get into why half-elves aren't that great.) Other characters though, choose a favored class at Level 1. This is static, and doesn't change even if the character no longer has the most levels in it. If you want to say other races just aren't as adaptable as humans, fine, but allow for individuality. Humans still retain their dynamic favored class ability.
Spikes01k 07-28-07, 06:12 PM	If Lesser Aasimars are as powerful as I have heard, then no. +2 wisdom and +2 charisma with no penalties? Lesser Tieflings also sound incredible. They would get the same skill point boost in the form of an intelligence boost and +2 dexterity which is considerably better than most early feats. The -2 charisma hardly balances that. I never found out what makes these guys "lesser" than the regular aasimars and tieflings. If I remember right, they are identical to their non lesser versions except they get all the negatives with out the positives to being an outsider.
Lawlicron 07-28-07, 06:14 PM	If I remember right, they are identical to their non lesser versions except they get all the negatives with out the positives to being an outsider. They are native outsiders. Even if they got those penalties without the positives (Not any I can think of actually, besides not being hit with spells that target humanoids) they are unbalanced with LA+0.
RikuKupo 07-29-07, 02:59 PM	Would a human lose his bonus feat if he changed into a different race using a ritual from savage species? I mean he already knows the feat, right? He probably would... but it was still an awesome thought :P
Novem 07-29-07, 03:37 PM	Humans are better because their abilities are, in part, level-based. At level 20, a +2/-2 isn't going to matter much, but 24 free skill points probably will. The higher level you go, the better choice Human becomes. This is limited by the fact that most games go only to level 15ish at best. Still, Human is a very powerful race.
bunj 07-29-07, 03:44 PM	i feel sorry for the human guy who was the father to a half orc... don't drink kids...
Angel Black 07-29-07, 06:06 PM	Humans are better because of versatility: - one bonus feat that can be useful to ANY class - extra skillpoints that can be iven to ANY skill of ANY class - Favored class :ANY
RaivokasMagma 07-30-07, 12:48 PM	1 bonus feat(feats are important) and no con minus but multi-class exp minus sucks.Balance between races are good(except half-elf)
Manyfist 08-01-07, 01:38 AM	Human + Factotum (Dungeonscape)= Jack of All trades I like Humans, don't get me wrong but for more specialized classes/builds I would use different race if you enjoy min-maxing.
hawkinsthedm 07-23-07, 07:12 PM	My friends state that the +1 feat/+4 skill points at level 1, and +1 skill point per level that humans receive are more powerful than any other +0 LA races. I am not sure that I agree with this, and I was wondering if anyone else had any thoughts on this.
Fatalis_902 07-23-07, 07:42 PM	Admittedly, the free feat and skill points are ALWAYS useful, and humans have no universal downsides. So, yes, human is never a particularly bad choice of race, but other races have other abilities. Elves get secret-door senses, low-lightvision, and skill bonuses, dwarves get stone-cunning, darkvision, and a handful of other cool abilities, both races get weapon proficiencies. Halflings and Gnomes have their own sets of abilities, and Half-Elves get bonuses to diplomacy and gather info, as well as low-light vision, and skill bonuses to the same skills as elves. Humans are anything but over-powered, or better than all the other races. They have some cool stuff, sure, but other races have other abilities, and this fact keeps them all on par.
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 07:47 PM	All else being equal, there's nothing better than a human at LA+0. However, things aren't equal, and there are several options humans can't qualify for. You know how the PHB describes humans as "everyone's second-best friends"? Well, it's sort of like that. They can be good at anything, and are the best at some things, with no real downside. However, there are many things that another race would be better than human for, although they'd probably come with enough downsides to put them behind humans at almost everything else. There's mechanical reason why they're the most common race in D&D, but also not the ONLY race. ;)
Vharuck 07-23-07, 07:58 PM	Let me tell you, as a player of a gnome with low-light vision in a party where everyone else has darkvision, I feel stupid in deep caves when we're trying to be sneaky and I'm carrying a sunrod. I would hate to have a human's vision.
key 07-24-07, 01:22 AM	My friends state that the +1 feat/+4 skill points at level 1, and +1 skill point per level that humans receive are more powerful than any other +0 LA races. At age 100, a human is probably not as powerful as an elf. Probably not at 500, 750, or 1000 years old either. Even if my character never gets that old (as I won't play enough for it to happen), I like knowing that as an elf, he could grow that old naturally and that all the while he won't show any signs of aging.
High Octane 07-24-07, 01:59 AM	My friends state that the +1 feat/+4 skill points at level 1, and +1 skill point per level that humans receive are more powerful than any other +0 LA races. I am not sure that I agree with this, and I was wondering if anyone else had any thoughts on this. If Lesser Aasimars are as powerful as I have heard, then no. +2 wisdom and +2 charisma with no penalties? Lesser Tieflings also sound incredible. They would get the same skill point boost in the form of an intelligence boost and +2 dexterity which is considerably better than most early feats. The -2 charisma hardly balances that. I never found out what makes these guys "lesser" than the regular aasimars and tieflings.
Nom 07-24-07, 03:30 AM	Every other race except half elf gets a +2/-2 to ability scores. Generally, one couples the +2 with a high score to make it higher and puts the -2 with a common score that won't matter as much. This is seen clearest with point buy: compare 16/12 with +2/-2 and without. With +2/-2, 16/12 costs 12 points (14/14 plus mods), while it normally costs 14 points. This gets more pronounced with the more expensive scores. Humans are generic. Most other races are specialised in some way. If you play to the speciality, they generally do better than a human (as Tempest said).
Forfeit 07-24-07, 10:31 AM	The deal is that any other race can get more skills and feats with levels, but humans cant get the special powers other races have.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-24-07, 12:32 PM	Dwarves are more powerful than humans.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-24-07, 01:48 PM	Dwarves are more powerful than humans. Agreed. In a number of areas, it's better to have a human, but dwarves rock most everywhere else.
Rakor 07-24-07, 01:52 PM	I always find in D&D that I am desperately short on feats and usually skills. I tend to play humans because racial abilities are nice but 7 feats over 6 just sucks me in every time.
hawkinsthedm 07-24-07, 02:28 PM	My personal favorite races to play: tiefling, dwarf, and halfling. Though I have an epic natural were-tiger that is really cool too.
LCD2YOU 07-24-07, 02:37 PM	(sarcasm=On) Humans are the best. Why? We are better than all of those half-breeds! Elves? That's what you get when you cross a monkey with a peacock. Dwarves? That's what you get when you bury the outhouse remains deep into the earth. Halflings? A mixture of Ferrets and Sprites. Gnomes? What you get when you mate a Dwarf and a Halfling. Half-Orcs? Many believe those dreadful things are the (mis)union between humans and Orcs. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are the progeny of elves and Dwarves! Humans are the best! Keep the Human Species pure! (sarcasm=off)
zoinks69 07-24-07, 02:57 PM	One thing I've realized -- humans get a free feat..at level one! Now, if they got a free feat "sometime" (in other words, at a level of their choosing), they'd be really amazing. Given the pre-reqs for some of the really good feats (usually X skill points, a host of feats, caster level X), the free feat at 1 isn't really that great. Yes, it helps some builds and certainly gives a boost at low levels. Compare it to dwarf: 1. Darkvision 2. Host of save bonuses 3. +2 Con 4. Free weapon proficiencies 5. Tumble in full plate 6. Minor bonuses vs. goblins/orcs For the cost of: 1. -2 Cha 2. -10 feet movement It's my opinion that dwarves really push the limits of LA +0.
Tempest Stormwind 07-24-07, 04:09 PM	Point of fact: While dwarves are strong (I'm not disputing this, although I do feel they're not worth LA+1), they do not get free weapon proficiencies. Weapon familiarity merely reclassifies weapons for them; a dwarf wizard can't pick up a dwarven waraxe and expect to use it. It only seems like proficiciency because dwarves are built like tanks and thusly appear most often with warrior classes, which almost always have martial proficiency. The only PHB race with actual free proficiencies would be the elf.
High Octane 07-24-07, 06:49 PM	5. Tumble in full plate No they cant. They still take the armor check penalty.
aotrscommander 07-24-07, 07:09 PM	No, D&D humans the same inherently inferior, maggot-ridden, worthless, smug, arrogant, humanocentic and generally verminous over-evolved monkey-morons as they are everywhere else; whose primary reeming trait is they are not Vampires or Shi'Ar. What? Oh, you mean mechanically better! Oh, well, that's different. Personally, I prefer the extra feat over most of the other racial abilities. Since 3.x, humans have become far and away the most common choice for characters; following Elves (and Half-Elves prior to 3.0) and to a lesser extent Dwarves and oddly, Tieflings. Yes, we've had more Tieflings since 3.x than Halflings, and nearly as many as Halflings/Hobbits since I started gaming combined. Oh and one Gnome and one Half-Orc, both more years ago than I care to fathom...
hawkinsthedm 07-24-07, 08:02 PM	...oddly, Tieflings. Yes, we've had more Tieflings since 3.x... Well, I think the reason I like Tieflings is because of the NPC one you run into while playing Baldur's Gate II. Plus, there is such a cool variety physical characteristics that you can use to display their fiendish heritage.
VrecknidjX 07-24-07, 08:15 PM	I wonder. If someone proposed an alternate race, and it had +1 feat, +1 skill point per level, a useful "class" option for multiclassing, it just might seem to be more powerful than other LA+0 races. Dave
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-24-07, 09:35 PM	I wonder. If someone proposed an alternate race, and it had +1 feat, +1 skill point per level, a useful "class" option for multiclassing, it just might seem to be more powerful than other LA+0 races. Dave No, it wouldn't. There's plenty of other LA +0 races that are far better than that.
MerlintheTuna 07-25-07, 12:41 AM	No they cant. They still take the armor check penalty.They can attempt to, even if the ACP will get in the way. Other races explicitly cannot, as the rules stipulate that the skill can't be used "if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot." Which, oddly enough, means that even a Hasted human in full plate can't Tumble, since his enhanced speed has been reduced (even though he still ends up faster than his base land speed). It's a goofy, redundant rule, but it's not alone. Grappling and tripping have similar stipulations, once again hitting characters with the problem of "even if you can, you can't, so nyar."
Optimized_Commoner 07-25-07, 04:51 AM	Humans are slightly better. However all things being equal, most players will pick the race that best suits their character class, so it evens out in the end. This is the same reason why flaws (unearthed arcana) are more negative than feats are positive.
runestar 07-25-07, 05:55 AM	I recall the Simbul once posting a revised version of the human race. Essentially, in addition to its existing benefits, it also has the equivalent of able learner, and an additional bonus feat to be chosen from a very narrow list of feats (mostly those +2 to 2 skills feats, but had the occasional regional feat like magical training). How do you think this stacks up?:)
Anaxander 07-25-07, 06:12 AM	Strongheart halflings are fairly powerful too: Free bonus feat, small size, +2 Dex, -2 Str, and some minor benefits.
Kensan_Oni 07-25-07, 11:49 AM	Mechanicly, the best race is Halflings. They have superior saves, really don't take any penalties for their small size (Outside of weapon damage), gain a better ac then most other characters, and generally are pretty awesome. Humans are the second best, as they allow for multiclassing, easy enterance into prestige classes, and basicly stay ahead of other characters with the same stats. Everything that doesn't have a half in it's name falls behind humans somewhere in the power curve.
hawkinsthedm 07-25-07, 11:51 AM	Strongheart halflings are fairly powerful too: Free bonus feat, small size, +2 Dex, -2 Str, and some minor benefits. Ya, they get all the benefits of a normal (lightfoot) halfling; except that they receive the bonus feat in place of the +1 to all saves.
Stormonu 07-25-07, 01:09 PM	Mechanicly, the best race is Halflings. They have superior saves, really don't take any penalties for their small size (Outside of weapon damage), gain a better ac then most other characters, and generally are pretty awesome. How many folks know that haflings actually end up with only an overall +1 Climb bonus (due to the -2 Str) and a -5 to Jump (due to 20 ft. base speed and -2 Str)? Halflings are sneaky fun, but I still like humans better. A well-chosen bonus feat is always helpful.
Gavinfoxx 07-25-07, 05:03 PM	Well there are some feats that are better at other classes. Whisper Gnomes make great sneaky types. Sun Elfs make great Wizardly Types. Star Elves make great bards and Sorcerers. Dragonwrought kobolds are plenty fun. Gold Dwarfs make great clerics. Warforged are really cool for lots of types of characters, and make great artificers. Elan are pretty useful for psionic campaigns... really there are a ton of good races. they just are usually quite specialized and good for only specific classes!
UltimateReality 07-25-07, 05:38 PM	I never found out what makes these guys "lesser" than the regular aasimars and tieflings.Lesser planetouched are found somewhere in the back of Player's Guide to Faerun -- page 191 or so IIRC. They are stripped of their outsider type and all resultant traits. They lose darkvision and the weapon and shield proficiencies, but not much else. Oh, and they're affected by spells that affect humanoids. Totally an equal tradeoff, right? :D
hawkinsthedm 07-25-07, 06:08 PM	Lesser planetouched are found somewhere in the back of Player's Guide to Faerun -- page 191 or so IIRC. They are stripped of their outsider type and all resultant traits. They lose darkvision and the weapon and shield proficiencies, but not much else. Oh, and they're affected by spells that affect humanoids. Totally an equal tradeoff, right? :D The thing is, that with the lesser races introduced in the appendix of Players Guide to Faerun is that they have negative levels equal to their LAs. They then gain their LAs back along with lost abilities instead of levels equal to their LA. The only real purpose of lesser races is so you can play one at level one. I guess your GM could decide to leave the lesser races as they are and then let you gain levels instead of regaining lost abilities and LA.
Holy_Beholder 07-25-07, 06:18 PM	Humans are the best! Keep the Human Species pure! Too late now, look at all the half races. I don't even think D&D has species any more, pretty much everything can interbreed in someway or another, through templates, so all D&D has is races. The only real exception here is constructs and undead, neither of which are species(Unless a TV, Radio, and Flying Corpse are species. They are objects.)
hawkinsthedm 07-25-07, 06:59 PM	The only real exception here is constructs and undead, neither of which are species... Actually, you have half-golems in MM2.
Far_Traveler 07-25-07, 07:07 PM	How many folks know that haflings actually end up with only an overall +1 Climb bonus (due to the -2 Str) and a -5 to Jump (due to 20 ft. base speed and -2 Str)? Halflings are sneaky fun, but I still like humans better. A well-chosen bonus feat is always helpful. Nitpick: for every 10 feet of speed BELOW 30, it's a -6 penalty to jump, whereas you get a +4 bonus for each 10 feet above 30 speed
High Octane 07-25-07, 07:37 PM	Actually, you have half-golems in MM2. I don't think these are made through the natural process or progeneration. They are actually a human or humanoid who had themselves augmented. A closer description would be cyborg. I mean when the description of a half-golem begins, it isn't "When a momma clay golem and a daddy human love each other very much..."
Dog_As_A_Devil_Deified 07-25-07, 08:06 PM	I never found out what makes these guys "lesser" than the regular aasimars and tieflings. They are not really "lesser" in actual play. For planetouched the only difference is that they are affected by spells that target humanoids as well as outsiders...big deal. They can be charmed by Charm Person or reduced by Reduce Person *and* banished by Banishment. In my games that comes up once in a blue moon anyway. The real limitation for me personally is that the inclusion of "lesser" versions is an optional rule, and the optional rules states "[i]f you use these lesser versions...you should use them across the board—for NPCs as well as player characters. Thus, a party that includes a lesser drow should never encounter drow from the Monster Manual in your game. Instead, all drow in your campaign should be lesser drow." In other words, if your DM allows them at all, then all aasimar and tieflings, everywhere, become "lesser" versions. My game world is relatively stable, and so I don't rejigger the stats on the races from campaign to campaign just because a player decides he wants to play a "lesser" race. So I tend to not allow that optional rule.
hawkinsthedm 07-25-07, 08:13 PM	I mean when the description of a half-golem begins, it isn't "When a momma clay golem and a daddy human love each other very much..." :heehee :rofl:
Nathreet 07-25-07, 08:38 PM	Dwarves, gnomes and maybe halflings are better than humans Elves, half-elves and half-orcs are worse, but still okay. Plus arcane archer is a nice prestige class. Even then you're still better off taking an elven subrace. There are a number of good elf subraces. Mostly b/c they get a bonus/penalty to 2 stats, not 1. That makes it easier to grab the stats you want for a specific character concept. Orcs likewise are a good LA +0 choice, thanks to the +4 strength. Unless you play them outdoors. Then that -1 AB reduces the +2 AB from strength to +1 overall. Goblins aren't too shabby either. Kobolds just plain suck. I've tried to find a good angle for them, and I'm totally at a loss. They just don't have any significant redeeming qualities to exploit to make up for their big penalties. That is unless you use those books with all the special kobold feats.
High Octane 07-25-07, 08:45 PM	They are not really "lesser" in actual play. For planetouched the only difference is that they are affected by spells that target humanoids as well as outsiders...big deal. They can be charmed by Charm Person or reduced by Reduce Person *and* banished by Banishment. In my games that comes up once in a blue moon anyway. The real limitation for me personally is that the inclusion of "lesser" versions is an optional rule, and the optional rules states "[i]f you use these lesser versions...you should use them across the board—for NPCs as well as player characters. Thus, a party that includes a lesser drow should never encounter drow from the Monster Manual in your game. Instead, all drow in your campaign should be lesser drow." In other words, if your DM allows them at all, then all aasimar and tieflings, everywhere, become "lesser" versions. My game world is relatively stable, and so I don't rejigger the stats on the races from campaign to campaign just because a player decides he wants to play a "lesser" race. So I tend to not allow that optional rule. That's it?? No way I'm allowing those races!
Deamhan 07-25-07, 09:16 PM	That's it?? No way I'm allowing those races! Actually, its not what I'd call terribly unbalancing. Losing immunity to all those spells, free prof with all martial weapons, while still keeping the vulnerablity to being banished isnt fun. And tiefling (and to a lesser extent aasimar) were rather weak +1 LA races to start with. Compare them to a dwarf and they don't exactly come out being that awesome. People seem to underestimate how much losing a class level sucks. Horrid if you're a caster and even if you're not you're still down hit points, gain all your feats and abilities a level later than your allies, stat bonuses, etc. All because you have +2 to stat over and beyond the PHB races and a couple of minor elemental resistances.
Erato 07-25-07, 09:35 PM	I don't think people have said that they are powerful enough to have a +1 LA, only that they are too powerful not to. There's a subtle difference. :)
High Octane 07-25-07, 10:32 PM	I don't think people have said that they are powerful enough to have a +1 LA, only that they are too powerful not to. There's a subtle difference. :) Yeah. That. And sorry, but +2 int AND +2 dex modified only by -2 charisma doesn't cut it for a +0 LA. The dwarf only get +2 constitution, and they have a reduced land speed in addition to that -2 charisma. Everything else is situational at best.
UltimateReality 07-25-07, 11:51 PM	The thing is, that with the lesser races introduced in the appendix of Players Guide to Faerun is that they have negative levels equal to their LAs. Um, I must respectfully disagree. Page 190 says: "As an alternative to the use of negative level adjustments...this variant offers different versions of powerful races that aren't as powerful. A 'lesser drow', for example, doesn't have all the traits and abilities of a standard drow character, but she can be played as a 1st-level character right alongside characters of other races. Since such characters never have to worry about level adjustments, they are sometimes more enjoyable to play than a character with a negative level adjustment, even if they lack some exciting features of the race."
hawkinsthedm 07-26-07, 12:01 PM	Um, I must respectfully disagree. Page 190 says: "As an alternative to the use of negative level adjustments...this variant offers different versions of powerful races that aren't as powerful. A 'lesser drow', for example, doesn't have all the traits and abilities of a standard drow character, but she can be played as a 1st-level character right alongside characters of other races. Since such characters never have to worry about level adjustments, they are sometimes more enjoyable to play than a character with a negative level adjustment, even if they lack some exciting features of the race." Ah, I see. I was just skimming it and missed that part! Thanks for pointing it out. What do you guys think about making elves humanoids with the fey (or feytouched) subtype, similar to the rules the lesser planetouched races? I always thought that Elves should be fey (and I believe that they were in earlier editions of D&D). I mean, it wouldn't be much more than flavor, but...
UltimateReality 07-26-07, 03:14 PM	What do you guys think about making elves humanoids with the fey (or feytouched) subtype, similar to the rules the lesser planetouched races? I always thought that Elves should be fey (and I believe that they were in earlier editions of D&D). I mean, it wouldn't be much more than flavor, but...A fey type or subtype isn't that bad...they already have low-light vision, and most classes are proficient with simple weapons. If they're a type, then watch out as they are no longer humanoid and not subject to spells that affect only humanoids. I would opt for Humanoid (Elf, Fey) myself.
hawkinsthedm 07-26-07, 04:49 PM	They are not really "lesser" in actual play. For planetouched the only difference is that they are affected by spells that target humanoids as well as outsiders...big deal. They can be charmed by Charm Person or reduced by Reduce Person *and* banished by Banishment. In my games that comes up once in a blue moon anyway. I still wonder where humanoids with the planetouched subtype end up being banished to. Do they get thrown into a random location on that plane (01-60 on d%) or to a random plane (61-100) as if they had failed the DC 15 Int check when trying to use an Amulet of the Planes?
Deamhan 07-26-07, 08:41 PM	Yeah. That. And sorry, but +2 int AND +2 dex modified only by -2 charisma doesn't cut it for a +0 LA. The dwarf only get +2 constitution, and they have a reduced land speed in addition to that -2 charisma. Everything else is situational at best. Major Dwarf benifits: Bonus to con (always useful, no matter what class you are) Not slowed by armor (though balanced by their already being slower, but still. They move the same speed as a human in fullplate without actually being encumbered by it) Darkvision 60ft A total of three different +2 skill bonuses (situational) A bonus against *all* creatures of the giant type, and an attack bonus against some of the most common low to mid level enemies in the game Edit: Forgot their +4 bonus against bullrushing, tripping, and generally falling down and weapon familiarity +2 on saves vs poison +2 on saves vs spells and spell like abilities Note the last two. When your players make saving throws, what, exactly causes them to make said saving throws? I'll bet eight times out of ten its a spell. Once of those ten is poison, and that tenth time is something else. The only real heavily situational bonsues they have are the skill bonuses as they work in very specific circumstances. Their 'favored enemy' bonuses are so broad they are getting those quite often. Drawbacks? 10 feet less speed and -2 to a stat that is mechanically only useful to bards and sorcerers. Dwarves rock. Hard. Edit: And I'd guess the planetouched would get banished to whatever outsider they were linked to. Tieflings to the abyss or hell, aasimar to celestial planes, gensai to their elemental plane etc
Stormonu 07-27-07, 02:23 AM	Nitpick: for every 10 feet of speed BELOW 30, it's a -6 penalty to jump, whereas you get a +4 bonus for each 10 feet above 30 speed Nitpick back: +2 racial to jump, - 6 for 20 ft. speed, -1 for Str modification = -5.
High Octane 07-27-07, 02:56 AM	Major Dwarf benifits: Bonus to con (always useful, no matter what class you are) Not slowed by armor (though balanced by their already being slower, but still. They move the same speed as a human in fullplate without actually being encumbered by it) Darkvision 60ft A total of three different +2 skill bonuses (situational) A bonus against *all* creatures of the giant type, and an attack bonus against some of the most common low to mid level enemies in the game Edit: Forgot their +4 bonus against bullrushing, tripping, and generally falling down and weapon familiarity +2 on saves vs poison +2 on saves vs spells and spell like abilities Note the last two. When your players make saving throws, what, exactly causes them to make said saving throws? I'll bet eight times out of ten its a spell. Once of those ten is poison, and that tenth time is something else. The only real heavily situational bonsues they have are the skill bonuses as they work in very specific circumstances. Their 'favored enemy' bonuses are so broad they are getting those quite often. Drawbacks? 10 feet less speed and -2 to a stat that is mechanically only useful to bards and sorcerers. Dwarves rock. Hard. Edit: And I'd guess the planetouched would get banished to whatever outsider they were linked to. Tieflings to the abyss or hell, aasimar to celestial planes, gensai to their elemental plane etc Lesser tieflings also get darkvision, last I remember. You have to remember though, the fact is that con is good to every class BUT it is not the primary stat for any class. Dexterity is one of the primary stats for rogues and rangers. Intelligence is the primary casting stat for wizards and is the source of both skill points and the stat used for many of the rogues skills. It isn't broken for every class, but being broken for some is enough really. To be honest though, If the +Int was dropped, the race would pretty much be fine. Granted the spell like abilities would be pretty strong at low levels. As for the Lesser Aasimar, +2 wisdom AND +2 Charisma with no penalties is pretty much unacceptable.
Stormonu 07-27-07, 03:05 AM	I still wonder where humanoids with the planetouched subtype end up being banished to. Do they get thrown into a random location on that plane (01-60 on d%) or to a random plane (61-100) as if they had failed the DC 15 Int check when trying to use an Amulet of the Planes? Edit: And I'd guess the planetouched would get banished to whatever outsider they were linked to. Tieflings to the abyss or hell, aasimar to celestial planes, gensai to their elemental plane etc Plane-touched are natives. They can't be banished to another plane while on the Prime Material Plane. They can be banished off other planes to the Prime Material, just like any other Prime Material native on a foreign plane.
hawkinsthedm 07-27-07, 12:10 PM	Plane-touched are natives. They can't be banished to another plane while on the Prime Material Plane. They can be banished off other planes to the Prime Material, just like any other Prime Material native on a foreign plane. If you banish an Outsider (native) then they also can't be banished from the Prime Material Plane if they were born there, so why did they make the distinction in the Player's Guide to Faerun that a Humanoid (planetouched) could be banished?
Scipion Emilien 07-27-07, 01:00 PM	From the FRCS page 18 A spell that drives outsiders back to their home plane does not affect planetouch character (probably because they are native from Toril), but banishement, a spell that removes an outsider from the caster plane without specifying a return to the outsider plane - would work just fine
Scipion Emilien 07-27-07, 01:31 PM	As for the human, they are the best race for those that like well-rounded character. For those who prefer to have a specialist character, others race present better option. And personnaly, i like the human of 3.x edition. At least at the table now there is human character. Unlike 2e edition where everyone was playing a non-human race because they were more advantage to be non-human than human. (Add to this the fact that my 2e edition group wasn't using multiclass rule because of their complexitie, it was often turning into a non-human fest).
Deamhan 07-27-07, 04:11 PM	As for the Lesser Aasimar, +2 wisdom AND +2 Charisma with no penalties is pretty much unacceptable. Yea, the Aasimar are abit much. My point was, though, that side by side are tieflings really that much more powerful than dwarves? They get two stat bonuses, admittedly, but at the same time dwarves are in essence sitting on a +2 bonus to all saves. Of course then we have races like the half-orc that need like... a level bonus adjustment or something cause damn they bite.
hawkinsthedm 07-27-07, 04:56 PM	Of course then we have races like the half-orc that need like... a level bonus adjustment or something cause damn they bite. And kobolds are even worse off then half-orcs!
Stormonu 07-27-07, 08:03 PM	A spell that drives outsiders back to their home plane does not affect planetouch character (probably because they are native from Toril), but banishement, a spell that removes an outsider from the caster plane without specifying a return to the outsider plane - would work just fine What, did the Sage write this? It's a direct contradiction of the banishment spell. From the SRD for Banishment It enables you to force extraplanar creatures out of your home plane. As many as 2 Hit Dice of creatures per caster level can be banished. extraplanar subtype does not equal native subtype.
navar100 07-27-07, 08:31 PM	I wouldn't say human is the most powerful LA +0 race, let alone of just the PHB, but at least unlike earlier editions, it doesn't suck to play one. The extra Feat and skill points make a big difference.
WizO_Cat 07-27-07, 10:11 PM	Moved to more appropriate board.
Deamhan 07-27-07, 11:15 PM	And kobolds are even worse off then half-orcs! Kobolds ain't really that bad, especially with Races of the Dragon around. Their stat penalties are kinda painful, but they do have what amounts to the highest starting 'base' armor class thanks to their dex, size, and natural armor along with that medium size movement on a small creature. I'd definitely qualify half-orcs for the 'bottom spot' on race power.
Papermonday 07-27-07, 11:55 PM	Well I've always loved that extra feat^^ Feats, I can't get enough of them :D
Mojo_Rat 07-28-07, 01:36 AM	I have always felt humans were quite strong, but i think alot of it depends what level the game is taking place at. at low levels that extra feat and the skill points (especially if your playing a skill point deficient class) is a much bigger deal than it is at say level 15. It allows the human to qualify for things alot faster. I think they are a great race.
cato 07-28-07, 02:21 AM	Humans are the bread and butter of optimized builds: Where to begin: Clerics can get divine metamagic 3 levels sooner, Druids dont really need the extra feat but it helps them more than any other race in core books. Mages: can you say metamagic and prc prerequisite? Rogues: tons of prerequisites there. I mean each and every class benefits much more from a feat than from the +2 bonuses to a stat. The extra skill point can often let you use int as a dump stat at times and still have just enough skill points for your main skills. Also lets not forget the RP advantage of being able to fit in in 95% of societies as a human. p.s Unless of course your DM allows anthropomorphic bats ^^
LazyNinja 07-28-07, 05:49 PM	I can't remember the last time in 3.x that I played anything but a human... and I hate it. Sure, I'm often sucked in by the feat and skill point (some builds just demand it), but it's the multiclass rules that screw over my character concepts. My biggest pet peeve with D&D is when flavor text restricts mechanics. I mean, you can't splash a few fighter levels to buff up your elvish ranger without spilling your XP all over the place. Why? Because all elves everywhere (PHB) find it easier to train as wizards. Even if your elf was raised by human barbarians after his village was razed by dragons and he's never even see magic performed or glanced at a spellbook, he's destined to be a wizard. Some favored classes seem to make sense. Dwarf fighters could use a CON bonus. Halfling rogues, hell, even half-orcs barbarians, even though half-orcs fall short in almost every other way. But Elves and gnomes? Bard? I understand the idea behind multiclassing restrictions. Sure, it's harder to juggle seven jobs than to stick to one. But I propose relaxing them a bit, to allow more flexible characters and (more important) RP concepts that are still viable mechanically. Human and half-elves remain the same. (Let's not get into why half-elves aren't that great.) Other characters though, choose a favored class at Level 1. This is static, and doesn't change even if the character no longer has the most levels in it. If you want to say other races just aren't as adaptable as humans, fine, but allow for individuality. Humans still retain their dynamic favored class ability.
Spikes01k 07-28-07, 06:12 PM	If Lesser Aasimars are as powerful as I have heard, then no. +2 wisdom and +2 charisma with no penalties? Lesser Tieflings also sound incredible. They would get the same skill point boost in the form of an intelligence boost and +2 dexterity which is considerably better than most early feats. The -2 charisma hardly balances that. I never found out what makes these guys "lesser" than the regular aasimars and tieflings. If I remember right, they are identical to their non lesser versions except they get all the negatives with out the positives to being an outsider.
Lawlicron 07-28-07, 06:14 PM	If I remember right, they are identical to their non lesser versions except they get all the negatives with out the positives to being an outsider. They are native outsiders. Even if they got those penalties without the positives (Not any I can think of actually, besides not being hit with spells that target humanoids) they are unbalanced with LA+0.
RikuKupo 07-29-07, 02:59 PM	Would a human lose his bonus feat if he changed into a different race using a ritual from savage species? I mean he already knows the feat, right? He probably would... but it was still an awesome thought :P
Novem 07-29-07, 03:37 PM	Humans are better because their abilities are, in part, level-based. At level 20, a +2/-2 isn't going to matter much, but 24 free skill points probably will. The higher level you go, the better choice Human becomes. This is limited by the fact that most games go only to level 15ish at best. Still, Human is a very powerful race.
bunj 07-29-07, 03:44 PM	i feel sorry for the human guy who was the father to a half orc... don't drink kids...
Angel Black 07-29-07, 06:06 PM	Humans are better because of versatility: - one bonus feat that can be useful to ANY class - extra skillpoints that can be iven to ANY skill of ANY class - Favored class :ANY
RaivokasMagma 07-30-07, 12:48 PM	1 bonus feat(feats are important) and no con minus but multi-class exp minus sucks.Balance between races are good(except half-elf)
Manyfist 08-01-07, 01:38 AM	Human + Factotum (Dungeonscape)= Jack of All trades I like Humans, don't get me wrong but for more specialized classes/builds I would use different race if you enjoy min-maxing.