Post/Author/DateTime	Post
priest of blipdoolpoolp 01-29-06, 12:37 AM	How do you convince new players that this isn't an evil game? What are some strategies you use?
Solaris 01-29-06, 12:51 AM	I don't get it. If they think it's evil, then why are they playing it?
priest of blipdoolpoolp 01-29-06, 12:56 AM	Sorry...'prospective' players...
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 01-29-06, 01:03 AM	Generally I point out that just being able to play Scrabble with Bible verses is not a valid basis for asserting a religious belief, regardless of how much their priest does it. This generally leads to a culture shock as the person realizes that faith means belief in something in the absence of evidence, not in spite of evidence to the contrary. That, in turn, leads to questioning why people are racist, sexist, homophobic, or anti-whatever. Eventually they all come to the conclusion that anyone who would so something as stupid/insane as to attempt "real" magic or kill themselves because their character died was totally screwed up before they ever got into the game, and were incapable of adequately maintaining the barrier between fantasy and reality. In other words, as soon as people realize that a pulpit and a cross doesn't grant someone infallibility they generally get a little more intelligent about accepting what people try to spoon-feed them under the sugar coating of religion.* *Disclaimer: I have absolutely no objections to religious beliefs of any kind. In fact, one of my best friends is a devout Catholic, while another is a Baptist, a few are Jewish, one or two are Muslim, and I myself am a deeply spiritual atheist. I respect religious beliefs. What I do NOT respect are using religious beliefs as excuses for unacceptable behavior such as the treatment of African Americans for much of the USA's history, beatings of homosexuals, the Holocaust, the Crusades, suicide bombings, ethnic cleansing, Ceasare Borgia's wave of destruction through Italy, etc..
green_yawgmoth 01-29-06, 01:11 AM	I just snicker and agree with them in the most sarcastic manner possible. If someone is going to be that willingly in the dark about a freakin' game, then I wouldn't want them at my table. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Shotgun_badger 01-29-06, 01:17 AM	I don't bother trying to convence these type to play, they would just ruin the fun, but I gotta go with Yawgmoth on the sarcastic responce for the normal situations.
Lemmose 01-29-06, 04:14 AM	By "perspective players" I assume that they are people who are actually willing to listen and are aware that what they have heard of it as being evil is likely biased and possibly wrong. That said, I usually just try and explain what it is. I start by asking what they understand about improv. acting (when actors are given a situation by the director as well as a role and then are allowed to act as they think their roles would), making sure that they fully understand what it is and then I make the simple connection that D&D, as well as all RPGs are just a story told form of improv with the 'Story Teller' (it works best to use this generic term for newbies) providing the setting, each player with a character whose role they play, and something non-biased to be used to see if actions succeed or fail, like dice. Now if they are on the same page and were of the impression that D&D is evil (as was one of my friends when I did this exact same thing with her) then you simply explain that since D&D is based in a setting akin to the Greeks were they had a pathian of gods, then it only stands to reason that people would have several deities used in the game, BUT since we know it is a game we create fictional ones so noone would be compelled to actually worship them. If you say it right, and they are willing to listen, then they will see the logic of it being just a game.
Cymraegmorgan 01-29-06, 07:17 AM	How do you convince new players that this isn't an evil game? What are some strategies you use? 1. No cannabilism at the gaming table when newbies are present. 2. When Cthulu calls, let the machine pick up. 3. Cover the statue of Baphomet with a floral sheet. Seriously, Anyone who approaches me with that attitude gets laughed at, and never ever invited into my home. It is not my job in life to disabuse fools of their notions.
The White Sorcerer 01-29-06, 08:35 AM	If they think it's evil, then why are they playing it? Maybe because it's evil. :devil:
Roxlimn 01-29-06, 08:37 AM	Tell them that it's a lot like Flyff or Ragnarok, or World of Warcraft. That's it. If they think that playing Warcraft is evil, then chances are, you're better off snaring other players.
rampant 01-29-06, 09:28 AM	i'd try to get their definition of evil first, that usualy tells you whether or not associating with them is a good idea acceptable - evil is harming others to your benefit evil is injustice evil is murder, rape, theft, and fraud people i don't want to talk to again - evil is anything not codoned in my holy book/congregation/religion/opinion evil is that which opposes my holy book/congregation/religion/opinion evil is that which does not agree with holy book/congregation/religion/opinion evil is anything my superiors tell me is evil evil is that which does not support holy book/congregation/religion/opinion these are summeries not likely to be the actual answers
weasel fierce 01-29-06, 03:44 PM	If a person believes that roleplaying is evil, then its not a person Im likely to want to associate with, in any event. If they just believe D&D is evil, we;ll play Runequest or Gurps :)
Feor 01-29-06, 04:40 PM	I agree that if they actually believe D&D is evil, it's not worth it trying to change their minds. If you actually get them far enough to play, chances are they'll use their play time to try and drag the group as far towards thinking it's evil as you've dragged them away from it. If it's someone who doesn't really know, and when you suggest playing they respond with "Doesn't that make you worship evil or something?" The best way to disuade them is to show them the Paladin, the description of the Core Dieties, and explain to them that while it is possible to pretend (heavy emphasis on that bit) to be evil in the game, most players prefer to play good characters, with the "goodest" playing things like the Paladin.
Kursk 01-29-06, 06:19 PM	I don't try to convince. If a person is so unobservant as to think that a game of fantasy is "evil" I really wouldn't want to DM for them.
TheChilliGod 01-29-06, 06:47 PM	Prospective players who think D&D is evil, I won't even try to convince. It's no use trying to get blood from a stone. The parents of prospective players that think D&D is evil in spite of their children, I will give it my best. I've rehearsed this sort of thing for ages in the hopes that I will get to unleash my debate upon those parents that bar their children from D&D, simply because I think such restrictions are wrong if the child actually wants to play. I think I may have found one or two such parents, but I'm keeping quiet about those. Simply put, I ask them why they think D&D is evil. Then, one by one, I shoot their arguments down with facts. "It causes people to commit suicide" "Actually, studies in University X have shown that people who roleplay commit suicide about Y times less than regular teenagers." "It causes people to worship demons other than god." "The mere fact that D&D features gods other than Our Lord Jesus Christ does not mean that us as people have to worship these made-up names in a book, anymore than we have to worship toothpaste simply because we use it." "It encourages rape, murder, and the use of satanic rituals." "Really? Here's the basic guide book. Look in the index for the word rape. Now try looking for murder. Now try Satan. Found anything? Nope? Okay, then." And so on. (Btw, can anyone fill in X and Y for me?)
urial angel of death 01-29-06, 07:04 PM	I can kind of fill in Y. twice as many priests* commit suidice each year, as roleplayers do. * note this is Christian priests I have no idea on figures regarding Jewish rabbis, or any other religious leaders.
konrad_the_tall 01-29-06, 07:08 PM	Of corse D+D is evil. did you think WOTC is the producer just by coinsidence?
weasel fierce 01-29-06, 07:12 PM	"It encourages rape, murder, and the use of satanic rituals." "Really? Here's the basic guide book. Look in the index for the word rape. Now try looking for murder. Now try Satan. Found anything? Nope? Okay, then." Well, actually, it does encourage killing people, and conducting wholesale genocide. (the xp system and alignments) Its just that its, you know, about fictive characters, in an imaginary world, in a make believe game of, you know, elves and ninjas. Totally applicable to present day reality. :) That being said, most old testament passages are a lot more grissly, than what WOTC or TSR ever put in print
Dhavaer 01-29-06, 07:14 PM	If roleplaying has no effect on suicides, there should be approx. 500 cases a year. There are 7. Go figure. (Unfortunately, I can't give a reference for this, other than to say I found it through a link from ReligiousTolerance.)
yeknom 01-29-06, 07:25 PM	How do you convince new players that this isn't an evil game? What are some strategies you use? 1. The player whose character is a Cleric of Asmodeus can't do the convincing. 2. Point out that the gaming group hasn't been caught in an evil act, yet. 3. Explain to them that 'Evil' doesn't consider itself 'Evil', merely misunderstood. Really, I don't have the problem of convincing players that D&D isn't evil and if I ever did face the problem I would probably just laugh at them and tell them to go away.
urial angel of death 01-29-06, 09:18 PM	I can kind of fill in Y. twice as many priests* commit suidice each year, as roleplayers do. * note this is Christian priests I have no idea on figures regarding Jewish rabbis, or any other religious leaders. edit- actually only able one gamer of any type of rpg commits suicide for every 100 priest suidices
speeblefreak 01-29-06, 09:59 PM	If it's the would-be player that thinks the game is evil, I won't even try. If it's the parent of the would-be player that thinks the game is evil, I'll use studies and common sense to convince the parent otheriwse. But just to be safe, I'll hide my BoVD, Assassin's Handbook, Necromantic Lore, etc.
The Grig Fiddler 01-30-06, 01:39 AM	I dont see any reason to not give a person who thinks D&D is evil a chance. Its hard to go against things youve been tought your whole life,but for the most part given cold hard facts people will see things the rite way.I mean my mom thought it was a bad thing for me to get into,not actually evil but a bad thing,so I sat down and asked her why. Of course she said because people have killed themselves and others, and that people have tried to use magic and summon demons, and that they dress up in costume and so on and so forth. So I did what a few of you have mentioned. I got my phb and had her to flip through it. I asked her to specifically look through the magic section. When she was finished she agreed that its just a game and as with anything it can be bad in the hands of the mentally unstable. Honestly I prefer trying to get players that think its bad than players that think its nerdy. An ego is alot harder to get past than an unfounded opinion.
High Octane 01-30-06, 02:48 AM	First off, see it from their point of view. Even if you dont agree with it, you have to understand what they are coming from. The most often quoted verse from the bible about this is something about "abstaining from all appearances of evil" which, ambiguous as it is, allegedly applies to D&D because the game involves magic and deities other than the one true God. Although few will ever actually say that the books themselves are a form of evil cult icons (the few that do are certifiable, and you can't save them all Hasselhoff) most will argue that the images in the game make you more comfortable or numb to such things. This same arguement is used for video games, that it glorifies and numbs the players to the idea, even though the act itself is not violent. Basically you have to explain it to them like this: Its just a game, and you and everyone who is playing understands the difference between fantasy and reality. None of them want to actually engage in such activities as magic casting and worship of Pelor, and they understand that magic, in the real world, does not exist nor does Pelor. This is fantasy where essentially you are writing a book about another world. However, you arent writing it, you are acting it out like a play. The best thing to refer to would be it is like playing out the trials of Hercules. Is that an evil act? It has the same features put forth, including other deities, magic, supernatural powers, and adventures. In fact it is worse than that because it involves deities that were actually once worshipped. Also explain that no one is so weak minded as to be influenced by a game like that unless they had a severe mental deficiancy, in which case they shouldnt be around anything sharper than a mostly used crayon. Top all that off with the good parts of D&D. Its a group activity that helps math, reading, and imagination skills. It builds self esteem and helps keep off depression. It is in the end an excuse to get together with some friends, drink a few sodas, and make bad jokes involving fictional characters.
OctoberRaven 01-30-06, 08:21 AM	Have them watch 8-Bit D&D, or better yet invite them to a session...if your running a "Good PCs" campaign.
Arrowhen 01-30-06, 01:20 PM	If they're the sort of people who would condemn something as "evil" without making the slightest effort to learn anything more about it, why would you want them in your game or in your life?
TheChilliGod 01-30-06, 01:41 PM	Well, actually, it does encourage killing people, and conducting wholesale genocide. (the xp system and alignments) I would prefer to call that "righteous justice" rather than "wholesale genocide," and also mention that I only allow characters that are of good alignment. As for the xp system, I said 'read the index' for a very good reason. :P
Ogre4Hire 01-30-06, 11:12 PM	Want to convince them it's not all evil? Have them read the Paladin's Code of Conduct.:D
High Octane 01-31-06, 10:01 AM	I think its worth mentioning that the 7 vs 500 suicides statistic was actually a way that a reputable source indicated that another source was not reputable. It is not an actual statistic, just a way one source said "Well at this rate you are saying there are only 7 suicides a year, when the average would be 500" As far as I know, there has been no actual research into the suicide rates of D&D players verse non- D&D players, but having been turned away from suicide due to D&D, I can say that D&D players probably have a signifigantly lower rate.
Ronfar7 01-31-06, 11:50 AM	I am a fool for stepping in here. But I specifically registered to this site to get players' opinions on this subject. I am not a D or D player. I have never rolled a "d6" in my life(Although I enjoy my six-sided-dice). I have read enough articles about this. I STRONGLY believe that perople should be held accountable for their actions and when someone commits murder they have no one to blame for themselves. But that's me, I decide what I believe and I do not compromise. However, I do aknowledge that people who expose themselves to certain things and do certain things are influenced IF THEY ALLOW THEMSELVES TO BE. I read about the dozen or two dozed kids that committed murder or suicide and the way that I understand it it wasn't D&D. D&D is a game, that's obvious. But from what I understand it is a very DEEP game. One that some people commit a lorge percentage of their lives to. Thus they may be influenced. They may check out some occult books so that they can use the symbols in a D&D game. And they may start reading these books and CHOOSE TO adopt witchcraft. They may take it a small step farther and get into the darker rituals and satanism and this influence may suggest that they commit some unspeakable act. Now that's a darned far way to go from D&D but the fact remains that the path they chose first was D&D and that's what some people eat up and spew out all over the television. Now you could look up any book at the librarey and find a misshelved book on witchcraft/satanism. In fact, I would imagine that many library's would put all of these books in a big pile labeled "Religon". And you are faced with the same choice. I have never played D&D and I don't know how the story or lore goes in it. If someone played D&D and thought it was real then they might become more dangerous than someone who played Pokemon and thought it was real but you've got to understand that either way that person has problems and needs help, not D&D or Pokemon or a lawyer to tell them that D&D made them do it. I have considered playing D&D. That makes me a potential player. And I am not religous but I do aknowledge the existance of God and Jesus the Christ and I am one of His servants. I will hold myself accountable for anything I do at any time at any place. I know the difference between fantasy and fiction and I know about the many cases of children who allowed themselves to be influenced too much and who, for some reason, decided to commit heinous crimes. I find it to be almost nauseating and what I think needs to happen is education and understanding. Not close-mindedness. Not this "If they are ignorant I will leave them to be,". Ignorance is destructive and if it is within one's power to educate someone I think they should do so. Not only would the pupil benefit but an ignorant parent of a troubled child may go straight to D&D for blame should their child choose to allow the lines to blur. the lines between right and wrong, fantasy and fiction, good and evil. I'll be back to read more opinions. I'm glad there are players who aknowledge this issue. Good day, friends.
Cantankerous 01-31-06, 12:04 PM	Ronfar7 Hi Mr Troll, what's your regular name here on the forums? Isshia
Dumat 01-31-06, 12:06 PM	D&D is not evil. Saying that is like saying algebra is evil. D&D and other roleplaying systems are, at their core, rules systems based in math. The rules exists because somewhere, someone got tired of playing cops and robbers with their little sister and the little sister saying "Uh uh, you didn't shoot me!" ever time he said "BANG." So they came up with a system to keep said annoying little sister from being able to weasel out of an imaginary bullet in an imaginary bank. (NO, FREAKS, I AM NOT SAYING GO SHOOT YOUR LITTLE SISTER. ITS AN EXAMPLE, FOR THE LOVE...) With the rules, it's right there in front of her: "Sorry sis, your armor class is 15. I rolled a 10 on my dice, and I have a +6 bonus. You is dead." Now, the things that get layered on top of the numbers are what you're talking about when asking this question. And that depends, just as anything else, on the person doing the layering. You can just as easily layer a roleplay setting with one God who demands justice, charity, and love from his followers as you can layer a setting where the Nine Evil Shog'nogoths of Insanity and Boogers are the supreme power in the game's universe. Bottom line: The DM (or more politically correct "GM") is responsible for the story and setting that unfolds at the table. Some DMs are nice. Some are not. Don't play with evil DMs, and your D&D game won't be evil.
The White Sorcerer 01-31-06, 02:11 PM	Ronfar7 Hi Mr Troll, what's your regular name here on the forums? Nothing warms a cold winter night quite as well as a good flame. :mage: