Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raven Dark 08-25-05, 09:55 PM	I am finding lots of problems with D&D math. The books simply don't tell you the order of operations to use and how to deal with minimums. :mad: For example: A goblin has 6 strength, thus taking a -2 penalty to attack and damage rolls. He is wielding a small +1 dagger which does 1d3 base damage. Does he deal 1-2 damage? 1d3-2+1 (minimum 1 damage) = 1 or 2 Or does he deal 2 every time? 1d3-2 (minimum 1) + 1 enhancement bonus = 2 Another example: I'm playing a wizard with 6 constitution. Thus he gets 1d4-2 (minimum 1 hp) per level. But I also have Improved Toughness (+1 hp per level). Is my wizard getting 1-3 hp per level? 1d4-2+1 (minimum 1) = 1, 2, or 3 Or is he getting 2-3 hp per level? 1d4-2 (minimum 1) +1 improved toughness = 2 or 3 The order makes a big differance as every hp, every point of damage can mean the difference between life and death. If its the former equation with my wizard (an actual character I am going to play), he will only benefit from improved toughness HALF the time (I mean, WTF?). That is why it is my belief that the feat is always applied LAST. Can anyone prove or disprove this conclusively? :confused:
GreyLord 08-25-05, 10:02 PM	Goblin does 2 damage every time. Your Wizard rolls 1d4-2 and then adds 1 to the end result so he gets between 2 and 3 HP each time.
Raven Dark 08-25-05, 10:32 PM	Thanks for the quick response. But do you know for sure? Do you have any rules support? My DM is leaning towards "no" on the wizard thing. :( If I can get enough people on this thread to (truthfully) agree with your statement, we may be able to convince him to help my feeble character out some. In any case, the purpose of this thread is to find an answer, not to convince my DM. Gaps in the rules drive me crazy. After all, it's kind of hard to houserule when you don't know if your houserule may actually be the official rule. I've written Sage Advice, but I've never recieved a response from him before on any of my past questions, so for now, I am relying heavily on these forums for answers.
melp 08-26-05, 12:27 AM	One way to look at this first calculate the HP of your char based on level without feats, items, or other magical effects. Once that is done, you then add anything else that you have to you HP total. The improved toughness feat says it adds 1 hp per level, not 1 to your CON modifier to calculate HP amount. So you'll have: ((4 + (lvl - 1)d4) + lvl * CON MOD min. 1) + other mods = Total HP -or- (1d4 + CON MOD min. 1) + misc mod = HP gained at level. All that fancy stuff would look like this for you: 1d4 - 2 = HP at level 1 or 2 + 1 = HP after feat To say that you'd only gain 1 HP, even with the feat, would mean to say that you would not gain any without it, which is something that is known to be ruled out right away in the PHB (p. 23). After rereading the feat itself, is says that you gain an additional hit point per level, it does not say that you get a +1 to your hit die roll. Hope that can help you in some way secure that extra HP!
Thorak 08-26-05, 01:38 AM	The trick to D&D math is all order of operations. As the others have pointed out. Take Improved Toughness. It adds +1 to your hit point roll. Not to your Con mod for that purpose. So, you roll the die, add Con mod, and then add +1 for improved Toughness. Where the first two steps have a minimum of 1, as per the PHB.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-26-05, 02:43 AM	...I think you're making it more complicated than it is. You're small, you've got a 6 Strength, and a +1 dagger. So your damage is 1d3-1. No attack deals less than 1 damage, so you'd deal either 2 or 1. You don't get to deal more damage because you're weaker. Deal with it.
Seeker95 08-26-05, 10:27 AM	No attack deals less than 1 damageI disagree with this assessment, but am not insisting that my disagreement is "the rule". I believe an attack can indeed do less than 1 point of damage. That's what makes reductions in damage scary. You finally "hit", and do nothing. In my campaign, we subtract at the end.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-26-05, 10:55 AM	I disagree with this assessment, but am not insisting that my disagreement is "the rule". I believe an attack can indeed do less than 1 point of damage. That's what makes reductions in damage scary. You finally "hit", and do nothing. In my campaign, we subtract at the end. *sigh* DAMAGE When your attack succeeds, you deal damage. ... Damage reduces a target’s current hit points. Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage. Yes, Damage Reduction can reduce an attack's damage to 0. But without damage reduction, no successful attack deals less than 1 damage. It's not an "assessment". It's a rule in the PH-Bloody-B.
Qual 08-26-05, 11:25 AM	I don't know of any specific rules, but this is how I would do it: The Goblin's weapon has a +1 modifier. I would figure out the damage first, then add the modifier. The goblin can never do less than one point of damage naturally, and has an extra 1 point due to magic. Since the goblin can't do less than one point of damage, he will always hit for 2. Health: Roll your HP first, getting either a 1 or 2, (minimum of 1). Add the extra point from the feat, so you'll always get 2 or 3 hp per level. Otherwise the feat is wasted, since you'd never actually get zero hp in a level. It just makes sense, otherwise the magic/feat bonus is actually negated half the time. -Qual
The_Ditto 08-26-05, 01:15 PM	Weapon: d3 + 1 Str: -2 What dmg does the weapon do: d3 (result 1, 2 or 3) + 1 .. = 2-4 (result 2, 3 or 4) Now that we're done dealing with the weapon ... let's move to the next item that modifies the damage. Strength. Str is -2 ... so 1, 1, or 2 (that is: Result 2 -2 = 0 (min 1) so 1, 3 - 2 = 1, 4 - 2 = 2 ) Order of operation is based on what you're adding. Deal with the weapon, the whole weapon and nothing but the weapon first ... then start with the next modifier (typically strength) .. then the next .. (maybe DR ...) .. etc. Each "step" they can have a min of 1 ... So a goblin with Str 6 and wielding a d4 -1 weapon ... (*shrug*, I don't know, maybe it's a cursed -1 weapon .. :rolleyes: ) The weapon would do: d4 - 1 = 1, 1, 2 or 3 Add str to that: 1, 1, 1, or 1 ... A critical hit would work the same way ... Say in our original case, that Goblin (Str 6) wielding a d3 + 1 weapon hits for x2 damage ... Ok, so what do we x2? (d3 + 1 ) x2 + (-2 * 2) ?? or ((d3 + 1) - 2 ) * 2?? ... etc. Again, work out each ... (and remember for critical hits, we don't actually "multiply", we roll multiple times .. ;) ) first roll: d3 + 1 = 2, 3 or 4 Plus str: 1, 1 or 2 Second roll: d3 + 1 = 2, 3 or 4 plus str: 1, 1 or 2 Total: (1, 1 or 2 ) + (1, 1, or 2) = (2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4) It's all here in the SRD: DAMAGE When your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal. Effects that modify weapon damage apply to unarmed strikes and the natural physical attack forms of creatures. Damage reduces a target’s current hit points. Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage. Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow. Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands. Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. Ability Damage: Certain creatures and magical effects can cause temporary ability damage (a reduction to an ability score). PS: I show the multiple same values to show that there's an increased chance of generating that value over the others, thanks to the modifiers .. not that it really matters to this conversation .. but :P
Raven Dark 08-26-05, 02:41 PM	I don't know of any specific rules, but this is how I would do it: The Goblin's weapon has a +1 modifier. I would figure out the damage first, then add the modifier. The goblin can never do less than one point of damage naturally, and has an extra 1 point due to magic. Since the goblin can't do less than one point of damage, he will always hit for 2. Health: Roll your HP first, getting either a 1 or 2, (minimum of 1). Add the extra point from the feat, so you'll always get 2 or 3 hp per level. Otherwise the feat is wasted, since you'd never actually get zero hp in a level. It just makes sense, otherwise the magic/feat bonus is actually negated half the time. -Qual That is my line of thinking too. Official sources once said that having a Guantlet of Ogre Strength +3 was a bad idea because it only benefited half of the population. Having a static feat or an enhancement bonus that only works half the time is just as illogical as a +3 item (especially when the wording and the spirit of the rules imply that it is supposed to work ALL the time).
RogerWilco 08-26-05, 03:47 PM	That is my line of thinking too. Official sources once said that having a Guantlet of Ogre Strength +3 was a bad idea because it only benefited half of the population. Having a static feat or an enhancement bonus that only works half the time is just as illogical as a +3 item (especially when the wording and the spirit of the rules imply that it is supposed to work ALL the time). Well, a strength item is actually the worst example you can give in that case, because things like carrying capacity do scale with every point of strength. A Gauntlet of Ogre Strength +1 would benefit everyone ;) I do agree that the feat should always add 1 HP. I think it's esp. designed/meant for situations like this.
Sulaco 08-26-05, 04:29 PM	Please ignore.
Seeker95 08-26-05, 08:55 PM	*sigh* [...] It's not an "assessment". It's a rule in the PH-Bloody-B.Feel better?
Tyler Do'Urden 08-26-05, 09:00 PM	Feel better? Not really. Although, I haven't had the chance to use the word "bloody" in a while.
StevenO 08-26-05, 11:56 PM	The weak goblin deals 1 or 2 points of damage but the wizard gains 2-3 hp. Damage for the goblin = [weapon (1d3+1) + Str (-2)]: min=1 Hitpoint for wizard = {[HD roll (1d4)+Con(-2)]: min=1 + Feat (1)} A general rule of thumb is that most successful attack deals at least 1 fixed dmg unless specifically resisted thru DR.