Post/Author/DateTime	Post
psiphre 01-27-07, 04:55 AM	first off, i had problems with my internet connection so, sorry if this gets posted more than once. So I've read and heard about a point system whereby a person buys the stats for their character through an escalatig-cost point system. I sat down tonight with a bottle of seagram's 7 and a bottle of 7-up and started thinking. "everyone says that the cleric and the druid are overpowered; and the fighter and to a lesser degree, paladin, are underpowered", I thought to myself. "I wonder if that's true?" So i opened up calc.exe, cracked my PHB, and started doing some math. hours later, I sit before you, and this is what I have. At every level, a character gains certain things. these are, in no particular order or relevance to class: Hit Dice Save bonuses BAB Feats Class abilities Skill Points Stat Bonus (once every 4 levels). the first thing I did was to normalize hit dice. D4 is the smallest die (outside a COIN), so i decided that every possible character gains at least 1d4 (+/-3) upon gaining a level; D4 is the base-line for HPs. every step above D4 costs 1 "point". so: D4: auto D6: 1 point D8: 2 points d10: 3 points d12: 4 points etc, etc. you could go all the way up to dX with this, but i don't know why you would want to. Next is saves. I figured that good saves advance at a rate of .5r or 1/2 per level, while bad saves advance at .3r or 1/3 per level. For the purposes of math, I converted both to /12 per level and added a "medium" save: bad save: auto (4/12 point per level) medium save: 1 point (5/12 per level) good save: 2 points (6/12 per level) note that RAW states you always round down. my next task was skill points. Skill advancement happens one of four ways: +2 per level +4 per level +6 per level +8 per level all + int mod. it ain't broke, so why fix it? skill points are 2 points per 2, up to 8. and you're not wllowed to buy an odd number of them. characters gain an ability point every 4 levels. that's equivalent to gaining 1/4 point that remains saved every level. So: 1/4 ability point: 3 points the next part was the hardest. spellcasting classes. I decided, rather arbitrarily, to assign the value of "3" to: - new spell levels unlocked (as per sorcerer, cleric, wizard) - new spells known (as per sorcerer) - new spell slot per day (as memorized, wizard; cleric) - new spell invocatoin (as per sorcerer) And to make them feats. the only limit I put on it is the "new spell level unlocked" feat: you can only unlock a new level of spells (which gives you 0 spells known in that level, rather than -) as long as the level is no more than 1/3 your effective caster level. this has the added bonus of powering down casters a tiny bit, and expanding the "non-epic" play from 20 to 30 (as you can't unlock 10th level spells until you are 30th level). and the last thing I did was to change any and all class abilities to feats, all of which cost 3 points and may or may not have a level requirement: class feature 3 points other bonus feat: 3 poinrs therefore, "sneak attack" becomes: [Rogue] Prerequisites: Rogue level 1 Benefit: you may deal extra damage against a foe that cannot defend himself. Whenever an opponent is denied his attack bonus, or you flank your target, you may deal an additional 1d6 damage. Normal: Your attacks deal normal damage. Special: You may take this feat more than once, as long as the number of times you have taken it is less than twice your level. Its effects stack. etc. That's about it. In the days to come I'm going to act on an idea i Had that was inspired both by the 2nd edition complete rogues' handbook and white wolf's "werewolf"'s "renown" system of levelling a character in character classes. so. now that i've gotten that out of the way, and iterated al the costs of everything, let me share my findings (in which i'm positive there are mathematical errors, but should be close enough): Bard costs 25 points to create and gaining, on average, 28 points worth of abilities per level. Clerics cost 39 points to make and gain rouhgly 23 points worth of abilities per level. Druids cost 36 points to make and gain roughly 27 points worth of abilities per level. Fighters are by far the weakest, cost only 12 points to make, and gain on average 15.2 points per level. Monks are among the strongest, cost 20 to make and average 27 (or 29, i can't read my writing) points per level, putting them in the same arena with clerics and druids Paladins cost 18 to make and gain a respectable but not fantastic 19points per level Rangers cost 19 points to create and gain roughly 20 points per level Rogues cost 20 points to start, and gain roughly 21 points per level "Sorcerer" is the most powerful class, : 39 points to create, roughly 40 points per level. Wizards cost 30 points to create, and gain roughly 34 points per level. what do you all think?
Pandaemoni 01-27-07, 07:07 AM	It certainly can be done. See, for example, Dragon Magazine 109, page 8, which has rules for creating just this sort of "custom" character classes. They use d3 as the base hit die with every step above that costing, and rather than assigning "points" they assign increased XP costs (which made sense back then (1986) because different classes all had different XP tables based on their perceived power). They even have ways to calculate the difference in a class that only has access to first-level sells max (or 2nd, 3rd, up to full spellcasting and 9th level spells) The system may require a lot of tweaking in-game to ensure that the proper "point costs" are assigned to different abilities, but it's certainly viable. It also allows each player to "customize" his own class very easily. The downside, even after you've balanced it out, is that it might be hard for a DM to keep track of all his player's abilities, since the range of options would be so much greater.
Leo 01-27-07, 07:39 AM	I think that there was already a thread where players were trying to do this, but I think it may be buried by now. If you can raise dead it, it can probaly give you some ideas.
Sarella Starshine 01-27-07, 09:03 AM	While D&D as a point based system might be cool, your best bet would to be find GURPS core books and the fantasy and magic supplements, as GURPS is a point based system and has the advantage of only using 3d6 for any roll needed. Since GURPS is pure skill based, you can go outside the 'norms' for your character (i.e. a fighter type being proficient with a spell or two, casters being able to wield any weapon you desire while wearing armor), and not be stuck with a certain 'class'.
itwasntme 01-27-07, 09:18 AM	By Overpowerd and Underpowerd ... its not so pos to work like that ok the fighter is by far the weekest at level one with the 15 point thing? Eh Monkey Grip combo/feats allows him to do 3d8 damage at like 120ft+ At level 1? the Bard and eveyone eles who dount have the Feats at level 1 cant do that type of Combo meaning there dead before they get in range Spells range 100+10ft per level level 1 = 10 Ft so 110ft vs 120ft Eh Up to Ini there but w/e Now higher in levels? Ok the Fighter starts to get boned and the Wizard gets more powerfull I mean magic missle only dos 1d4+1 damage fighter has at least 10hp (10 con right?) your out of range and adverage damage is 2+1=3 damage ... hit him 3 more times 3+3+3+3=12 there hes in the negitives now the fighter got to hit you at least 120ft away doing 3d8 damage ... Ok perhaps you dount relize how Beffy Hp are for all characters at each level? The points for life is understated Differnt level spells deserve differnt points there After all a 5th level spell can be much more deadly then a level 0 spell correct? in a way the whole "Lets do points" Dosnt hit it Even a Barbian melee guy wins the fight at low levels vs thouse higher point Spell casters (Acording to you) No Make it where the Points are differnt Ok the Fighter starts with Higher Points then he has but has the lowest Progressin meaning later on he gets out beaten inless you are very stright/Good with your fighter (Rare but some people are like this and can make the Fighter still super beffy later on in the game) tho the Wizard is much better higher in the game then he was before hand Not just becouse of the added points but becouse now he out ranks people The Wizard isnt Better then the fighter at level 1 ... only Rarely is he better At level 12 tho? Ok differnt story inless the Fighter is very good ... he has to start acting like the Wizard Sure a Wizard can be good at level 1 and perhaps better then the fighter (Rarely) Same can be said of the fighter vs the Wizard at level 12 tho Sorry but by my means this is kinda ... a bit ... hm ... idiot like in my mind what you did But then again idiot seems to harsh ...
itwasntme 01-27-07, 09:26 AM	first off, i had problems with my internet connection so, sorry if this gets posted more than once. So I've read and heard about a point system whereby a person buys the stats for their character through an escalatig-cost point system. I sat down tonight with a bottle of seagram's 7 and a bottle of 7-up and started thinking. "everyone says that the cleric and the druid are overpowered; and the fighter and to a lesser degree, paladin, are underpowered", I thought to myself. "I wonder if that's true?" So i opened up calc.exe, cracked my PHB, and started doing some math. hours later, I sit before you, and this is what I have. At every level, a character gains certain things. these are, in no particular order or relevance to class: Hit Dice Save bonuses BAB Feats Class abilities Skill Points Stat Bonus (once every 4 levels). the first thing I did was to normalize hit dice. D4 is the smallest die (outside a COIN), so i decided that every possible character gains at least 1d4 (+/-3) upon gaining a level; D4 is the base-line for HPs. every step above D4 costs 1 "point". so: D4: auto D6: 1 point D8: 2 points d10: 3 points d12: 4 points etc, etc. you could go all the way up to dX with this, but i don't know why you would want to. Next is saves. I figured that good saves advance at a rate of .5r or 1/2 per level, while bad saves advance at .3r or 1/3 per level. For the purposes of math, I converted both to /12 per level and added a "medium" save: bad save: auto (4/12 point per level) medium save: 1 point (5/12 per level) good save: 2 points (6/12 per level) note that RAW states you always round down. my next task was skill points. Skill advancement happens one of four ways: +2 per level +4 per level +6 per level +8 per level all + int mod. it ain't broke, so why fix it? skill points are 2 points per 2, up to 8. and you're not wllowed to buy an odd number of them. characters gain an ability point every 4 levels. that's equivalent to gaining 1/4 point that remains saved every level. So: 1/4 ability point: 3 points the next part was the hardest. spellcasting classes. I decided, rather arbitrarily, to assign the value of "3" to: - new spell levels unlocked (as per sorcerer, cleric, wizard) - new spells known (as per sorcerer) - new spell slot per day (as memorized, wizard; cleric) - new spell invocatoin (as per sorcerer) And to make them feats. the only limit I put on it is the "new spell level unlocked" feat: you can only unlock a new level of spells (which gives you 0 spells known in that level, rather than -) as long as the level is no more than 1/3 your effective caster level. this has the added bonus of powering down casters a tiny bit, and expanding the "non-epic" play from 20 to 30 (as you can't unlock 10th level spells until you are 30th level). and the last thing I did was to change any and all class abilities to feats, all of which cost 3 points and may or may not have a level requirement: class feature 3 points other bonus feat: 3 poinrs therefore, "sneak attack" becomes: [Rogue] Prerequisites: Rogue level 1 Benefit: you may deal extra damage against a foe that cannot defend himself. Whenever an opponent is denied his attack bonus, or you flank your target, you may deal an additional 1d6 damage. Normal: Your attacks deal normal damage. Special: You may take this feat more than once, as long as the number of times you have taken it is less than twice your level. Its effects stack. etc. That's about it. In the days to come I'm going to act on an idea i Had that was inspired both by the 2nd edition complete rogues' handbook and white wolf's "werewolf"'s "renown" system of levelling a character in character classes. so. now that i've gotten that out of the way, and iterated al the costs of everything, let me share my findings (in which i'm positive there are mathematical errors, but should be close enough): Bard costs 25 points to create and gaining, on average, 28 points worth of abilities per level. Clerics cost 39 points to make and gain rouhgly 23 points worth of abilities per level. Druids cost 36 points to make and gain roughly 27 points worth of abilities per level. Fighters are by far the weakest, cost only 12 points to make, and gain on average 15.2 points per level. Monks are among the strongest, cost 20 to make and average 27 (or 29, i can't read my writing) points per level, putting them in the same arena with clerics and druids Paladins cost 18 to make and gain a respectable but not fantastic 19points per level Rangers cost 19 points to create and gain roughly 20 points per level Rogues cost 20 points to start, and gain roughly 21 points per level "Sorcerer" is the most powerful class, : 39 points to create, roughly 40 points per level. Wizards cost 30 points to create, and gain roughly 34 points per level. what do you all think? the Scor would be higher Arguetive ... Scor at level 1 is better then the wizard to some points but higher level the Wizard is better the nthe scor the wizard has higher level spells faster the wizard knows much more spells then the scor Exa Exa
crowclub 01-27-07, 09:37 AM	first off, i had problems with my internet connection so, sorry if this gets posted more than once. So I've read and heard about a point system whereby a person buys the stats for their character through an escalatig-cost point system. I sat down tonight with a bottle of seagram's 7 and a bottle of 7-up and started thinking. "everyone says that the cleric and the druid are overpowered; and the fighter and to a lesser degree, paladin, are underpowered", I thought to myself. "I wonder if that's true?" So i opened up calc.exe, cracked my PHB, and started doing some math. hours later, I sit before you, and this is what I have. At every level, a character gains certain things. these are, in no particular order or relevance to class: Hit Dice Save bonuses BAB Feats Class abilities Skill Points Stat Bonus (once every 4 levels). the first thing I did was to normalize hit dice. D4 is the smallest die (outside a COIN), so i decided that every possible character gains at least 1d4 (+/-3) upon gaining a level; D4 is the base-line for HPs. every step above D4 costs 1 "point". so: D4: auto D6: 1 point D8: 2 points d10: 3 points d12: 4 points etc, etc. you could go all the way up to dX with this, but i don't know why you would want to. Next is saves. I figured that good saves advance at a rate of .5r or 1/2 per level, while bad saves advance at .3r or 1/3 per level. For the purposes of math, I converted both to /12 per level and added a "medium" save: bad save: auto (4/12 point per level) medium save: 1 point (5/12 per level) good save: 2 points (6/12 per level) note that RAW states you always round down. my next task was skill points. Skill advancement happens one of four ways: +2 per level +4 per level +6 per level +8 per level all + int mod. it ain't broke, so why fix it? skill points are 2 points per 2, up to 8. and you're not wllowed to buy an odd number of them. characters gain an ability point every 4 levels. that's equivalent to gaining 1/4 point that remains saved every level. So: 1/4 ability point: 3 points the next part was the hardest. spellcasting classes. I decided, rather arbitrarily, to assign the value of "3" to: - new spell levels unlocked (as per sorcerer, cleric, wizard) - new spells known (as per sorcerer) - new spell slot per day (as memorized, wizard; cleric) - new spell invocatoin (as per sorcerer) And to make them feats. the only limit I put on it is the "new spell level unlocked" feat: you can only unlock a new level of spells (which gives you 0 spells known in that level, rather than -) as long as the level is no more than 1/3 your effective caster level. this has the added bonus of powering down casters a tiny bit, and expanding the "non-epic" play from 20 to 30 (as you can't unlock 10th level spells until you are 30th level). and the last thing I did was to change any and all class abilities to feats, all of which cost 3 points and may or may not have a level requirement: class feature 3 points other bonus feat: 3 poinrs therefore, "sneak attack" becomes: [Rogue] Prerequisites: Rogue level 1 Benefit: you may deal extra damage against a foe that cannot defend himself. Whenever an opponent is denied his attack bonus, or you flank your target, you may deal an additional 1d6 damage. Normal: Your attacks deal normal damage. Special: You may take this feat more than once, as long as the number of times you have taken it is less than twice your level. Its effects stack. etc. That's about it. In the days to come I'm going to act on an idea i Had that was inspired both by the 2nd edition complete rogues' handbook and white wolf's "werewolf"'s "renown" system of levelling a character in character classes. so. now that i've gotten that out of the way, and iterated al the costs of everything, let me share my findings (in which i'm positive there are mathematical errors, but should be close enough): Bard costs 25 points to create and gaining, on average, 28 points worth of abilities per level. Clerics cost 39 points to make and gain rouhgly 23 points worth of abilities per level. Druids cost 36 points to make and gain roughly 27 points worth of abilities per level. Fighters are by far the weakest, cost only 12 points to make, and gain on average 15.2 points per level. Monks are among the strongest, cost 20 to make and average 27 (or 29, i can't read my writing) points per level, putting them in the same arena with clerics and druids Paladins cost 18 to make and gain a respectable but not fantastic 19points per level Rangers cost 19 points to create and gain roughly 20 points per level Rogues cost 20 points to start, and gain roughly 21 points per level "Sorcerer" is the most powerful class, : 39 points to create, roughly 40 points per level. Wizards cost 30 points to create, and gain roughly 34 points per level. what do you all think? I like your ideas but, as I'm sure you'll agree, there are some obvious problems. Class abilities are very hit and miss. For example how do you compare a Barbarian's Trap Sense ability to a Druid's Wild Shape? Valuing them both as 3 points is some crazy s*** ! However, I do like the idea of slowing the advancement of Spell levels to balance out the full-casters obvious strengths during higher levels.
psiphre 01-27-07, 04:32 PM	I like your ideas but, as I'm sure you'll agree, there are some obvious problems. Class abilities are very hit and miss. For example how do you compare a Barbarian's Trap Sense ability to a Druid's Wild Shape? Valuing them both as 3 points is some crazy s*** ! However, I do like the idea of slowing the advancement of Spell levels to balance out the full-casters obvious strengths during higher levels. of course it's hit and miss, and a lot of the class abilities need tweaking to make them worth buying with a point system. however, it's highly situational... in a trap-filled dungeon, trap sense is much more valuable than in a wilderness campagin setting.
crowclub 01-27-07, 07:23 PM	of course it's hit and miss, and a lot of the class abilities need tweaking to make them worth buying with a point system. however, it's highly situational... in a trap-filled dungeon, trap sense is much more valuable than in a wilderness campagin setting. For sure.(My post wasn't meant as a :nonono: or a :raincloud !) You'll end up with a menu system of abilities (UA has a simplified one) but Munkins will work out the best combo's and all the sheep will follow suit. I like the rough and smooth elements of the current classes (although its clear which classes have an abundance of smooth and which ones don't). You could use a multi tier system where you can choose from menu A but then have to choose something from menu B before returning to menu A... or something, to balance and provide playable variations. It could work but it wont be easy. Good luck!