Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LordofIllusions 12-21-04, 09:58 AM	Am I the only one or does it seem like a good portion of 3E players have little, or no, imagination ? It seems as if unless something is physically placed in front of 3E players(Miniatures, fold-up paper building models, pictures, etc.), you get little to no interaction at the gaming table. Sure they are quick to jump into combat and roll tons of dice so that they can get to the next level, but how much imagination does that really require ? Especially if you have a grid, paper building, and miniatures in front of you. I am not saying miniatures are bad, I actually like them and use them in every game. I am saying that miniatures are cool, but when it comes to the essence of the game, role playing, where is the imagination ? Yes, I know there are those, here on the WoTC boards, that claim "everything" falls on the shoulders of the DM--but when is it clear that the people that you are DMing for have little, or no, imagination at all ? This does not only include the players, it includes authors(those at Dungeon/Dragon magazine), DMs, etc. I see multiple posters looking to myriad books for inspiration in their games, when all that is truly needed is the 3 core rulebooks, and an "imagination." 3E is a mechanics-heavy edition of D&D(there are most certainly plenty of rules), but when it comes to good storylines and just plain storytelling advice--3E falls short. There was another poster--Mythmere--that made a statement about how the old school D&D designers were receiving so much fluff from 1E/2E(via gaming magazines, rulebooks, etc.) that when it came time to design 3E they just left that portion out of the game, or rather did not focus on it as much. Mythmere also came up with a version of city-building rules that were simpler, and yet better, than the DMG city-building ruleset. It took the DMG web enhancement to bring the DMG cit-building rules up to par. I find that a good portion of 3E players come to D&D from playing console games. Some video gamers turn out to be good role players(I am a casual gamer and a DM, I even have a thread on porting some FFIX classes, etc. over to D&D), but then again you have a good portion that simply whine about the campaigns, spend hours building characters stats; rather than working on traits and personality, compete with other members of their own team(get angry if another player's stats are higher or if another players outshines their character on the battlefield), use the game to get even with people they have problems with outside of the game. Mind you this behavious is not limited to the hardcore video gaming crowd, it is just that most of MY players that have exuded these characteristics are video gamers(and 3E players). I would guess that we live in a time where everyone wants things fast without any effort on their behalf. Heck, you want to study you turn on the computer type keywords into the search engine and your work is done. You never have to pick up a book. You want a hack'n'slash adventure ? Log onto Everquest(or the soon-to-be copycat known as D&D Online) and become a 72nd-level whatever(one of my video gamers told me he was a 52nd-level vampire in Morrowwind :rolleyes: ). These same people cannot understand why their 1st-level D&D character has to interact in order to get what he/she wants. Why can't they just cut through everything like they do on the computer, console, TV, etc. ? It is truly a puzzling predicament for them, they don't want to earn what they get. D&D is a role playing game, or at least it was before some 3E players/authors/designers/DMs got their hooks in it, treat it like one. Get up off of your behind and ROLE PLAY. ~~~
Seeker95 12-21-04, 10:38 AM	The only difference between third edition and older editions in terms of the players is that we have the Internet for us to all share our problems, gripes and complaints. There were boring players in the past, and there were imaginative players in the past. There were both powergamers and munchkins. There were overly-dramatic thespians and few-words die rollers. But today we have the Internet. We share these observations (without sharing the perspective) and compound small issues into big ones. Then we blame the game, the rules, the designers, the publisher, and the corporate owner. However, I don't blame the Internet. I blame video games. And decaf.
LordofIllusions 12-21-04, 11:34 AM	The only difference between third edition and older editions in terms of the players is that we have the Internet for us to all share our problems, gripes and complaints. There were boring players in the past, and there were imaginative players in the past. There were both powergamers and munchkins. There were overly-dramatic thespians and few-words die rollers. I agree. I just think that they are more prevalent with 3E. But today we have the Internet. We share these observations (without sharing the perspective) and compound small issues into big ones. Then we blame the game, the rules, the designers, the publisher, and the corporate owner. However, I don't blame the Internet. I blame video games. It is not just video games(when used correctly they can add to the game), or the internet. It is the way people themselves are now. Of course the internet, video games, etc. can exacerbate the situation, but ultimately the problem lies with people not wanting to put any effort into anything now. To reiterate: I would guess that we live in a time where everyone wants things fast without any effort on their behalf. Heck, you want to study you turn on the computer type keywords into the search engine and your work is done. You never have to pick up a book. You want a hack'n'slash adventure ? Log onto Everquest(or the soon-to-be copycat known as D&D Online) and become a 72nd-level whatever(one of my video gamers told me he was a 52nd-level vampire in Morrowwind ). These same people cannot understand why their 1st-level D&D character has to interact in order to get what he/she wants. Why can't they just cut through everything like they do on the computer, console, TV, etc. ? It is truly a puzzling predicament for them, they don't want to earn what they get. It takes little to nothing to log on, play online games, turn on a video game console, or watch 50 reality shows. These things take no effort/imagination, D&D is a living, social game. It takes effort to role play a character, get along with the other group members, etc. Some people now are losing that(the willingness to work for their character, game, etc), and it is not just the players either. You see some DMs/authors/game designers/ etc. taking the easy way out all the time. ~~~
Rodak_the_Dim 12-21-04, 12:38 PM	Just for background, I have been playing D&D since 1977 and have seen all the rules. I think you are very correct in stating that players today TEND to have less imagination than in earlier years but I am not sure why you would blame that on the rules. As stated earlier there were powergamers, whiners, rules lawyers, etc. back then also. I remember them quite "cough" fondly. I don't believe the current rules sets or the use of miniatures are to blame. I actually find the use of miniatures very helpful in clarifying situations and certainly make combat (and combat IS inevitable in D&D) much easier. You don't have the problem of "What! But I was not over here! I was over there!" I do agree with you that Role-playing is what the game is all about. When I DM I rarely use an expansion, rather I would like to do that myself (part of that is because in the beginning we didn't have expansions) or let the players make suggestions. Really good role-players have always been in the minority. For some reason when 3E came out I constantly heard that it was for munchkins and that the "True" role players preffered 2E. I find that really absurd. Role-playing is a function of the players and the DMs, not the rules set. I noticed that you mentioned the players and DMs should just use their imaginations and not rely on expansions and the like, yet you then complain that 3E falls short in that area. How can a book fall short in imagination? That is not the rules responsibility, it is the DMs and the players. Both contribute to it. I also take exception to the implication (I am talking in general and not specificly to you at this point) that anyone who likes the combat rules and combat in general is a "hack and slash player" or a "munchkin". I love combat and at the same time am a good role-player, even during combat. Imagination does not stop when the combat grid comes out. In many ways it is just beginning. I think (and this is just my opinion) that there is an unfair prejudice when it comes to combat. Sure it is boring if it is just an exchange dice rolls, so do it differently. Instead of "The orc swings at you" how about "As you pull your sword out of the dead orc you just stabbed you see movement out of the corner of your eye as another orc attempts to behead you with his axe." (Of course you may already be doing this, So please remember I am talking in general terms from my own experience.) Role playing in combat can even be very amusing. I remember one time my dwarven cleric bull rushed a zombie and pinned it to the wall out of frustration at not being able to connect with it. Unfortunately while he had it pinned he STILL couldn't hit it. He kept swinging and hitting the wall while spewing out a constant stream of Dwarven courses on the thing. Playing like that (to me) is loads of fun and of course sure beats "I swing, (miss), I swing again (miss again)." I also believe you are correct in that a lot of players seem to think the DM is just there to give them a way to reach 141st level or the like. A player should be trying to make the game fun for the DM as much as the DM is trying to make it fun for the players. The DM is not a tool, he is a person that has worked hard (hopefully) on this campaign and the players should always keep that in mind. Besides a bored DM is ALWAYS more deadly than one who is enjoying himself. :) And if the players are into it then the DM is into it and everyone is enjoying themselves. (By the way I finnaly killed that zombie when the ****** reached around my shield and tore out a piece of my beard. MY BEARD! Took me a long time to get the jellied part of the zombie of my tunic too. But I made it through that ordeal. Thank Moradin for the Sacramental Ale.) There are so many ways to encourage role playing, not only as a DM but as a player. (Again I am not saying you are not already doing this.) I have seen many a DM over the years say something like "You are walking down a corridor and come to a turn and see it is covered with ice and a small white dragon is 60 feet away." BORING. How about "As you walk down the corridor you are approaching a turn. The temperature is getting noticable colder and you can see your breath." In role-playing all we have are words so we need to paint pictures with them. This is not only the responsibility of the DM either. How many times has the Rogue said "I hide" instead of "I am staying close to the wall and attempting to blend into the dark shawdows as I slowly move forward." and then again for the DM not "Your check fails" but "As you are moving you hear a crunch under your feet as you step on some loose gravel that you didn't notice." See role playing has nothing to do with the rules really. It has to do with the effort put into the game by all involved. Just to reiterate bad players always have been, and always will be around. The best you can do is encourage them to the best of your ability to use their imagination. Maybe they just don't know how. Give them suggestions and let yourself be an example. Also remember you are under no obligation (as a player of a DM) to continue in a game that you are not enjoying. That is another misconception that many have. I appreciate you posting this thread. It is something I think should be discussed from all angles. I also applaud your desire to see more role playing. I believe if you weren't a decent DM or player none of this would bother you. I also remember as a player how I dealt with the first really whiney player I ever encountered (He constantly cried if his player was damaged and God forbid came even CLOSE to dieing). When he was asleep I tried to give him a hotfoot but accidently set his blanket on fire. He cried, the rest of the party laughed, and the DM personally went and got me a beer. Hang in there, you will find the players you want.
LordofIllusions 12-21-04, 12:53 PM	Excellent post Rodak! I agree with many of your points! To an extent, yes there have always been horrible role players/munchkins/powergamers/etc. However, What I am saying is that these players/DMs were able to look to the content in 1E/2E/DRAGON/Dragon magazine/etc and get more fluff than crunch. Take a look at the Why_DON'T You Buy Dragon Magazine? thread ( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=346117&highlight=why_DONT_you+buy+Duneon+magazi ne+)(The underlined title is an active link). The main complaint from posters is the lack of fluff. Many of these posters state that the fluff once existed in Dragon magazine, but is nearly non-existent now. It's all crunch. I do not put the blame mainly on the ruleset though, the main portion of the blame falls on the people themselves, and the way people expect things to be handed to them in this day and age. Things are too easy, they do not have to put any effort forth. We are actually joking about a few of these things here on this thread ( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=353913). The thread is not meant to offend, it is just a thread for poking fun. I am not disagreeing with you or saying 3E is bad, just that it is present in a day and age when most don't want to put forth anymore effort than flicking a button, logging on, or changing a TV station. I hope you can understand, and thanks for posting. ~~~
CzarGarrett 12-21-04, 12:56 PM	I think the easiest thing is to only use minatures in combat, and make combat only 50% of any adventure. That way it forces both players and DM to be more creative.
Rodak_the_Dim 12-21-04, 01:03 PM	I think the easiest thing is to only use minatures in combat, and make combat only 50% of any adventure. That way it forces both players and DM to be more creative. I really don't think that miniatures induce people to be less creative. Just clarifies where people are. (in the 70's we always used miniatures for marching order and it never limited our creativity) Creativity and imagination are a function of the effort AND ability of the players (not characters) involved. And as far as fluff goes.....READ A BOOK! :D Thanks for reading!
Azual 12-21-04, 02:38 PM	man... this dude is... whoa... its like hes reading my MIND Lord of Illusions, once again, i have seen your great wisdom. I think that Morrowind is about the closest game out there to actualy Comp vs. Player RP. It is far from PvP Rp, but its the best ur gonna get versus a computer, besides that, basically, ive played with kids who really dont know what the storyline to some video games is, they just want to skip that and get onto the killing. Kids dont see D&D as 'Roleplaying' then 'Game' they see it as an RPG, like the other one thousand out there on athe PS2 or Game Cube, All you have to do while playing a video game is run around and click to kill stuff. They got all the fantasy without the interaction. As someone who's heard "Aww... cmon can we PLEASE go kill something" i have to say, a plot twist or two and an RP situation is really REALLY needed. Something i cannt agree with is that you say 3e is too ruley, ive never played 2e or 1e but i hacve to say, my players dont even own the Players Handbook, one has read it once, the others ask me for info. I dont use most of the rules (like how to make a city) but on toehr stuff, i need the rules so i cannot just say, because i said so everytime the person Who HAS read the books wants me to follow the works to the letter Once again, everyting you say is true LOI
taltamir 12-21-04, 11:18 PM	Imagination is truely not needed anymore. I have played with DMs who just used premade adventures and steamrolled the players into them to avoid actually having to think up something creative. I have played with players who didnt have a whif of imagination. Its just how it is.
Erix d'Pheer 12-21-04, 11:55 PM	*whine whine whine* See, now, this here? This is the sort of thing I don't like. What you say is true, taltamir, but as Rodak said, bad-roleplaying is a symptom of bad people, not bad rules. I played a lot of both 2nd and 3rd Edition, and there was at least as much hack-'n'-slash in the former as in the latter. To frankly state my opinion, much of 2nd Ed. was dumb as hell, and I don't think there was a single negative change in the 2nd-3rd conversion. You never needed imagination to play DnD, and it seems to me that adopting d20 was the best thing that could have happened. Hooray for streamlined rulesets and open sourcing! Lord_of_Illusions, what can I say? Some people just suck.
taltamir 12-22-04, 12:07 AM	hold it skipper... I did not mean in comparison to older versions, In fact I only ever played 3.5... actually I dont know why I said anymore. But Imagination isnt needed. And too many players/dms are unimagineative... ofcourse, I dont make it a habbit to playing with those cause they SUCK.
Elric Of Melnibone 12-22-04, 04:37 AM	3.5 isnt 2e. 3.5 is both creative and confining. I like the ideas coming from each new setting. They are the framework for many different campaigns. And like so many different flavors of icecream I often cannot decide which is best. So I go for vanilla and add bits of this one that I like and parts of that one. I take only the best of the creative parts and loose the confines of one setting by calling mine custom. 3.5 is about framework and rules. If you examine the volume of work that is being produced by wizards you will see rules, campaign settings and monsters. So much so that there are now more rules for character classes than ever. This is discourging to the DMs cause now there is more to look through to decide weather or not to allow said new prestige classes into the campaign. The number of published modules for e3.5 is around 12 for wizards of the coast. In contrast e2 has somewhere in the neiborhood of 80+ modules tsr published (probably more than that). I have said it in other obscure posts but I will say it again. When was the last time you got excited about a rule .....this game is about adventures !!!!WOTC needs to publish more adventures. As Far as the minis go the only thing I dont like is the way they are being distributed... Random packs is a form of gambling. Children dont need that form of marketing pressure and shouldn't be submitted to this. It is unethical. I would much rather pay more and know what I am buying than have to deal with the uncertainty of a random booster pack (it is a ccg pokemon world). When was the last time you needed 18 man-at-arms figures?(enough said). So while there is more framework to deal with in 3e there are too many Blank s left to fill ... not enough original ideas like frictionless floors, demil-iches, and downed ufo's. e2 has covered so much ground adventure wise that It leave e3 to appear unimaginative and empty. That is why the comparisions between Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Games and e3 are occuring. This is where the lets go kill some cows so we can level mentallity is coming from. It is more difficult to be a dm today than It was 25 years ago when I was 11. This is due to the fact that most every unique non-templated idea for adventures has to come from my head. Hopefully someone at WOTC will see this post and hire me to write adventures for them (truely a dream job).
Vharuck 12-22-04, 04:51 AM	Miniatures are to D&D as chess pieces are to chess. Yes, they are not truly necessary, but without them my mind boggles with too much information and actually hinders my ability to see the world from my character's eyes.
Azual 12-22-04, 08:10 AM	Miniatures are to D&D as chess pieces are to chess. Yes, they are not truly necessary, but without them my mind boggles with too much information and actually hinders my ability to see the world from my character's eyes. why cant there be more analogies like this one on the SAT. this one is kool :thumbsup: :D
LordofIllusions 12-22-04, 09:07 AM	And as far as fluff goes.....READ A BOOK! I find it kind of ironic that you are telling people that want to role play in the D&D RPG to read a book. As far as I knew the D&D core rulebooks, and accesories qualify as "books." At least that is what I thought when I bought the hardcover(and softcover) "books" from the "bookstore", where they were sitting on a "bookshelf." Should not one read the Dungeons and Dragons Role Playing Game books if one wishes to play the Dungeons and Dragons Role Playing Game ? Key word: Role Playing. It is not just there for fun, it is integral part of the game. They(WoTC) MUST include fluff on this, or it ceases to be a role playing game. Also, Dragon Magazine is meant to be an aid to the D&D Role Playing Game, as is Dungeon magazine. Why then are a good percentage of posters, subscribers, etc. stating that these two magazines fall short in providing a good role playing experience. Instead they are making stats for Chocobos, not that this is bad(as I too like FF) but where is the fluff for the DM that does not want to convert Final Fantasy to his game(Posters here on the boards are already converting some FF-stuff on their own. We don't need Dragon to do it as well) ? Once again I must state, The mechanics in 3E are not bad--I actually like the d20 system better than the THACO system--but where is the fluff versus the crunch ? ~~~
Archtyrant Terevoth 12-22-04, 09:28 AM	PrCs are the imagination killer in D&D. Why bother thinking up a good class when you can just find the PrC you want and go with that? After all, you'll totally suck anyway if your concept isn't supported by a suitable PrC, so you might as well not bother thinking of a character before you've looked at the crunchy details first.
angryman 12-22-04, 09:56 AM	I write adventures first, then add the numbers. I don't always run D&D so I can easily turn Olgar the Reaper into a level 5 human barbarian (D&D) or a Saxon warrior (Pendragon). In this way, I write an interesting (hopefully!) story, set out the background etc, then add the "crunch". So for me as a DM, imagination is paramount because the game is effectively systemless until I add the numbers and stats in. My old DM however had an interesting problem- he has NO imagination. His descriptions are along the lines of "You see a man in armour. He attacks you." or "The room has a lot of Orcs in it. They attack you." If I ask for specific details, such as the location of any cover, he arbitrarily says yes or no, giving no specifics. "There's 25% cover in the corner, 40' from you." Weird...
Rodak_the_Dim 12-22-04, 11:33 AM	I find it kind of ironic that you are telling people that want to role play in the D&D RPG to read a book. As far as I knew the D&D core rulebooks, and accesories qualify as "books." At least that is what I thought when I bought the hardcover(and softcover) "books" from the "bookstore", where they were sitting on a "bookshelf." ~~~ Now you know exactly what I was talking about. ;) But to clarify, there are a lot of sources for ideas out there that just the rule books. Draw on all available sources, books, movies, comics, even TV and video games. There is a wealth of stuff out there you can get ideas from. Oh, and please I want ot be clear. How someone playes the game is their concern not mine. I encourage people to role play because I like to play that way but I have never said that it is the "Correct" way to play. Even though I may believe it is. :D
Morwen 12-22-04, 01:13 PM	IShould not one read the Dungeons and Dragons Role Playing Game books if one wishes to play the Dungeons and Dragons Role Playing Game ? Key word: Role Playing. It is not just there for fun, it is integral part of the game. They(WoTC) MUST include fluff on this, or it ceases to be a role playing game. However, no matter how much fluff one includes in the rulebooks, unimaginative players will remain unimaginative players. No amount of released fluff will change that. In fact, 3.5 should be seen as providing a means to enhance roleplaying, by giving DMs and players all the tools required to handle the "physics" of the game world with a lower amount of preparation time and on-the-fly handling. That should give both parties more time to get into the roleplaying aspects of the world and their characters. If it doesn't, then that is because people don't want to or are unable to (some people just aren't blessed with a good imagination). Not because the edition rules prohibit it in any way.
taltamir 12-22-04, 02:53 PM	Step 1. write an adventure. Step 2. chooce the role playing system to go with it. Step 3. find some good players. Step 4. have fun. :P
Zaxon D'Mir 12-23-04, 10:07 AM	It's not the game, it's the players. I played 2e back in the day with some college buddies that were all polymer science phd candidates. Not a damn one of 'em had a lick of the fantastic flowing through their bodies. Everything was cut and dry - SCIENCE! We were knee deep in the Hell's Keep module for FR when an argument insued over the chemical composition of the elemental plane of fire and fire elementals. These guys started a heated debate over what chemical combinations would burn eternally. The session was pretty over at that point. Now the theatre/drama majors I gamed with...well...that's another story. Some of the best games ever. HEAVY roleplaying.
GreyLord 12-24-04, 12:05 AM	Miniatures are to D&D as chess pieces are to chess. Yes, they are not truly necessary, but without them my mind boggles with too much information and actually hinders my ability to see the world from my character's eyes. Then expand your mind. You'd be surprised at how much more you are able to see if you want to. Why be blind if you needn't be?
GreyLord 12-24-04, 12:13 AM	I should say I do use miniatures in the 3.5 game I'm playing, just to be fair. However, for older editions of D&D I never used miniatures, and don't feel the need to. I thought I'd put into this that fluff actually in some ways is an imagination killer itself, and for those that do not use their imaginations enough. Personally, though I did read a lot of fluff, I find that I'm now more into buying the crunch and ignoring OTHER PEOPLE's fluff. I have enough of my own to draw from, and if I run out, I can create more. This is why I prefer crunch to fluff currently, exactly because I AM imaginiative enough that I don't know why I'd resort to actually pay money for something that is inferior (at least for me and my campaigns) in material than stuff I could make up on my own. As an added plus, my own material is free, except for time invested on my part. Just stating that because something doesn't have fluff, doesn't necessarily mean that those who avoid fluff don't have imaginations. In fact it might actually be the exact opposite.
SnowbearK 12-24-04, 04:53 AM	Y'know, I own shelfloads of minis, around half of them painted. I've done up a hundred or so of World Works Games and Microtactix cardstock building parts. In my younger days I modelled foam, wired, flocked, and painted gaming terrain. I've even bought resin terrain pieces. It's a hobby for me. I think I've used minis in about ten game sessions total over the last two decades. My players never cared. They come back every single time (reality engagements notwithstanding) to the table and for days, months, even years afterwards they remember the games fondly and in general have an amazing time. Except for a few players I've had over the years. The ones that didn't enjoy it, that don't get invited back to the table, they're the ones without imaginations. If you can't picture a 6ft 8inch, 320lbs male defensive lineman with a bright orange beard as a dainty 4'9" blonde elf chick in black silk pajamas, then my game isn't for you. You won't enjoy it. Go home now. Or, better yet: Go to the game store and find like-minded gamers and play your way. I used to have a lengthy prepared speech, a good 3 pages or so in 8pt font all about how mini's were never necessary, you didn't need any character markers, or terrain, or a grid, or anything like that to play D&D, just a good DM and a good imagination, but you know what? I deleted it. It's one of those causes that either you see it my way, or you don't, and if you don't, nothing's going to change your mind, so why expend the energy trying? I'd much rather spend my energy working on a game for people who WILL appreciate it and who do enjoy that style of play. If I have to argue a case for it, you're not going to enjoy it, and by extension, neither will I nor any of my players.
Rodak_the_Dim 12-24-04, 03:49 PM	Oh for the love of.... I told myself "Brian, don't read this thread this morning, it is just going to get you irritated, but would I listen....no." This "If you use miniatures or enjoy combat you are not a real role-player" mantra that some spout is one of the most assanine examples of elite snobbery that I have ever seen. I am amazed at how often I see it. I like miniatures and combat and by the same token am an excellent role player. This is a game that has many ways to play and NONE of them are the correct way to do it. If you don't like miniatures or combat fine. But please spare me this holier than thow rhetoric about TRUE role playing you are spewing. Oh and Merry Christmas!!! Or would you like to label me as a bad role player because I don't use the politically correct "Happy Holidays" Jeez
taltamir 12-24-04, 03:55 PM	First time I saw dnd I was 8...I think it was 1st or 2nd edition. I didnt actually figure out how to play correctly, my buddy helped me design a character and all, and he dmed, trying to introduce me to the game... but I really didnt understand what was going on so it was 4 hours of "ok so i kill those monsters now" and just rolling alot of dice, boring as hell (I didnt try it again till I was 20, and this time it was 3.5e). That time, when I was 8, he had a case that included a dungeon delving adventure, a detailed map/board of the dungeon. and miniatures.... all one package. WotC didnt have to make miniatures for SOMEONE to make some. And I doubt that they have the whole "miniature of a warrior" trademarked... (or that it would apply in the country I say it at)
Seeker95 12-24-04, 05:41 PM	Or would you like to label me as a bad role player because I don't use the politically correct "Happy Holidays"I'm not sure it is any more politically correct. My religion has no holy days in December. So why wish me a "merry anything" this month, and not other months? :D
TigerWolfe 12-24-04, 05:50 PM	PrCs are the imagination killer in D&D. Why bother thinking up a good class when you can just find the PrC you want and go with that? After all, you'll totally suck anyway if your concept isn't supported by a suitable PrC, so you might as well not bother thinking of a character before you've looked at the crunchy details first. I never plan out my character's not sure why but meh. I once played a kender wizard which is not a good idea I nuked the party cause i failed a concentration check. Kender and the ability to cast fireball fun.
BaldHero 12-25-04, 03:05 AM	There may be a difference in what people expect of the game based on when they are exposed to it. Newer players might expect it to be more like the media they have been exposed to.Video games, half hour cartoons, and movie plots that span generations of epic conflict in about 1 hr and 45 minutes. Older players may have different expectations, simply because the media they had to compare it to when they were introduced to the game was very different. Monthly comic books, massive tomes of fasntasy literature that took longer than an evening to read through, etc. Saying that 3E changes the amount of imagination being used is just silly. The 3.X system is marketed as three core books. Those of us with really swell imaginations, and lots of time on our hands, can make up anything we want, and then play with like minded people. I am of the opinion that by using miniatures, maps, and even someone elses writen modules that you might be making it easier to imagine what is happening in the game you play in. people with great imaginations will be really able to see something, and imagine it even more vividly. People with less imagination will have something to spark what they have, and get more from the experience. In this regard, these are simply tools that help make the game more fun,which is the point of the game in the first place. People with less time, and or less imagination can get a boost from the bajillions of resources available to them. In fact, doesnt the new bunch of visual aids, fine graphics and readily available miniatures make it easier on people to become casual gamers, reducing the overwhelming task of really getting a grasp on the hobby? if there had been easy to understand rules for miniatures, cheap and nifty looking plastic minis, and kewl mats and maps, and paper castles to play with twenty years ago, they would have had the same job. It just took the ideas, and the market, time to evolve enough to allow them to show up.