Post/Author/DateTime	Post
missionary 12-28-06, 11:23 AM	Good afternoon everyone. As you can tell by my name, I have an occupation that involves that Bible. I was in a discussion a few minutes ago about demonism/satanic activity involved in D&D. And everything came down to third and forth hand information. In past experience, I have found that has been untrustworthy. I'm not concerned with polite answers so much as the truth about the situation. If any of you have any insights or comments to make concerning this question, "Does D&D have it's roots in satanism or have any other demonic or New Age influences in it?" please feel free to share your comments. I fully realize that there will be a few people rolling their eyes. That's all right. I'm looking for an answer, thats all. thanks in advance
Escef 12-28-06, 11:40 AM	I suggest you do some research on the concept of "moral panic". I also suggest you do a search for "The Pulling Report", an in depth analysis of the founder of Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons (B.A.D.D.) and her methods. There is also the "Dark Dungeons" pamphlet put out by Jack Chick (sorry, linking to hjis website is forbidden here, as his site has hate speach pamplets for whatever group ails you). I recommend you go to wikipedia.com and start doing research on who's who and what's what. Wiki is far from complete, and not always correct, so by no means should you limit your research to that one site.
missionary 12-28-06, 12:01 PM	Thanks I'll take it from here. Mind if I get back to you later if I have other questions?
Escef 12-28-06, 12:11 PM	I'm sure you'll get more responses in a few hours. If you end up with questions that haven't been answered, there will be plenty willing to help you out.
RPGfan 12-28-06, 01:54 PM	D&D doesn't have roots in satanism. Yes it does. No, it doesn't. What about this then? (http://www.ugoplayer.com/animation/8bitdnd.html) That's just a joke and you know it. Hello, I have MPD and only Role Playing can calm the voices in my head. That, or I'm messing with you. Take your pick.
CzarGarrett 12-28-06, 02:09 PM	By the strictest Christian definitions, yes, it does have roots in Satanism. I say this because much of Christian dogma has relegated various pagan and old religion ideas, rituals, etc into evil, pro-Satan activities. Elves were creatures out of Celtic myths. Dwarves were in Norse stories. Goblins in Germanic folk tales. These creatures were relics of the past and in an attempt to rid the world of such influences, the early Christian church declared them evil. However, in the way I think you're asking- no, not in the least. D&D has drawn from many sources, and perhaps LaVey influenced the ideals and precepts of a handful of divine beings, Satanism has nothing to do with D&D. New Age mysticism did not influence D&D, but one could say that it uses parallel historical influences in some parts. Like any other group of people, there may be some true Satanists and New Age pagans who play D&D. Their games and characters may have more of an obvious Satanic or Pagan taste, but that it due to the people involved, not the game itself.
missionary 12-28-06, 02:29 PM	Ahh. Dear RPG fan: Such wit surely deserves a response. So here it is. I do my best to make sure I don't take a side on issues that I have very little understanding of. This of course, makes people say things much like you just did. Consider this. If I knew what I was talking about already, why would I be in this chat room? All I'm looking for is factual information that will give me an idea of what the issues involved here are. Your answer, if viewed by others, would only enhance their position that D&D players are somehow mentally deficient. (And other things) I do not take this position for a few obviouse reasons. Whoever invented this game was intelligent. 1. He saw a market and took advantage of it and made a lot of money off all of you. Not that this is wrong at all, but he definetely knew what he was doing. 2. His creative skill is among the best in the world. Or he had some very good people working for him. 3. The people involved in this game range from drug addicts to businessmen. I know some of each. Now that I've finished a simple account of my reasons for my questions, Any factual information, however much I may dislike it, is still factual. And that is what I'm looking for. I'll give you some examples. Has anyone ever pubished an article on the creators? What are the backgrounds of the creators? Are their any studys concerning D&D and it's relation to illegal activity? Ect. I've gotten one good reply from escef. I haven't been able to look at any of it yet, but thats what I need. But then again, maybe I'm just messing with you. Missionary
missionary 12-28-06, 02:36 PM	CzarGarrett Good. I agree that every group of people has a few satanists in it. Even churches. Your comments about the historical roots of the elves and goblins are new to me. I'll look into this as I have more time. thanks
draco1119 12-28-06, 02:49 PM	Missionary, please check your inbox.
RPGfan 12-28-06, 03:37 PM	It was a joke. I was bored. Need I say more?
Gondor 12-28-06, 03:49 PM	Ahh. Dear RPG fan: Such wit surely deserves a response. So here it is. I do my best to make sure I don't take a side on issues that I have very little understanding of. This of course, makes people say things much like you just did. Consider this. If I knew what I was talking about already, why would I be in this chat room? Yes, if you are a troll. All I'm looking for is factual information that will give me an idea of what the issues involved here are. Your answer, if viewed by others, would only enhance their position that D&D players are somehow mentally deficient. (And other things) Ah, classic conversational terrorism. It's been a while since I've read this. It sure is telling that you would throw around rude comments about our intelligence while hiding behind the old cover of "it's what other people think about you.". I do not take this position for a few obviouse reasons. Whoever invented this game was intelligent. 1. He saw a market and took advantage of it and made a lot of money off all of you. Not that this is wrong at all, but he definetely knew what he was doing. 2. His creative skill is among the best in the world. Or he had some very good people working for him. 3. The people involved in this game range from drug addicts to businessmen. I know some of each. You know, I've heard terrible things about Christians. People say that they are mentally deficient and unwilling to confront reality. I don't take this position, of course, for a few obvious reasons: 1) Your founder was clearly a smart fellow. He saw a market and took advantage of it. He definitely knew what he was doing. 2) Talk about creative. I don't think I could come up with that stuff if I was high on LSD. 3) I've known Christians from all walks of life--from criminals to respected business men. Does this help you see what you sound like? You are either trolling or have a serious bias that you haven't been able to hide. On the off chance that you really are serious, then you should know that "satanism" (although it's really unclear what you mean by that term) is not involved in any way with D&D. D&D is to Satan as Monopoly is to Satan--that is, totally unrelated.
Nis 12-28-06, 04:12 PM	Has anyone ever pubished an article on the creators? Here you go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax). Note that this comes from Wikipedia so it is best to check its sources as well. What are the backgrounds of the creators? This should be covered in the Wikipedia article as well as the sources it draws from. Not that you should take much from this: lots of great, everyday things we use now were invented/improved by people you might find morally questionable. Are their any studys concerning D&D and it's relation to illegal activity? Ect. I doubt it. Even if there were I'd be highly skeptical of any claims the study makes; any such study will most likely have a predetermined conclusion and use cases and "facts" to arrive at that conclusion. Similar "studies" were done on comic books in the fifties with "conclusions" that they caused youths to do all sorts of bad things.
missionary 12-28-06, 04:46 PM	TO GONDOR: It sure is telling that you would throw around rude comments about our intelligence while hiding behind the old cover of "it's what other people think about you." It is what some others think about you. However, my comments were not intended to be rude. If I came across that way, you have my apologies. I am also serious on my intentions. I don't troll for a response, I only want information that helps me make the decision. No one has to read into what I'm writing. TO RPG: You have my apologies as well. I misunderstood. TO NIS: Thanks for the input. I'll look at this. TO EVERYONE: It appears as if I have lots to read. I'll be back later. missionary
rudie 12-28-06, 05:26 PM	DnD takes things from many faiths, mythologies, etc. and puts them into the game. The game does deal with deamons and angels, however, there is nothing in any book that encourages satanic worship (book of vile darkness can be argued to, however many people I talk to think its just a DM tool to make more diobolical villains). All people have the ability for good and evil, DnD players and their characters are no exeption, players are no more drawn to satanism than the average post man. In fact, my group consists of a few devout christians. Yes, playing evil characters can be fun, but it in no way makes people worship the devil. It adds flavor to the game. DnD is like a video game in your mind, and should not be connected to satanism any more than mario brothers.
RPGfan 12-28-06, 06:26 PM	DnD takes things from many faiths, mythologies, etc. and puts them into the game. The game does deal with deamons and angels, however, there is nothing in any book that encourages satanic worship (book of vile darkness can be argued to, however many people I talk to think its just a DM tool to make more diobolical villains). All people have the ability for good and evil, DnD players and their characters are no exeption, players are no more drawn to satanism than the average post man. In fact, my group consists of a few devout christians. Yes, playing evil characters can be fun, but it in no way makes people worship the devil. It adds flavor to the game. DnD is like a video game in your mind, and should not be connected to satanism any more than mario brothers. Some people would argue that the Mario Brothers are metaphors for drug dealers, but then again, some would argue that the Mario Brothers are metaphors for Brooklyn plumbers that can't get a good job.
Grug the Just 12-28-06, 06:44 PM	D&D has almost as many angels and demons in it as the Bible. Seriously, it's just a game. It's paper and pencil and dice. The stories you tell with it can have as much or as little to do with any religion as you want.
Seeker95 12-28-06, 07:18 PM	Missionary, the answer to your question is: No. D&D does not have its roots in satanism or have any other demonic or New Age influences in it. And no, we cannot "prove it". However, we do not have to. If someone (anyone) is claiming that it does, then the burden of proof lies upon them. If you find any evidence, share it with us, and then seek our input and feedback. Until you have evidence that implies or shows that it does, your asking such questions is rude and insulting, because it pre-supposes a truth to the non-evidenced claims. That you are asking without presenting any evidence to indicate you have a reason to believe that it does, you are basically telling us that you think it does.
Zicka 12-28-06, 07:33 PM	I am the worlds biggest christan (REALLY NO JOKE) IN the name of the father, son, and holy spirit. oh yeah I play but replace the polytheist religion with the epic battle between god and Satan God bless those who scorn him :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :bow: :bow: :bow:
highbulp 12-28-06, 07:46 PM	Saying that D&D involves demonism/satanic activity is similar to saying that Dante's The Inferno involves demonism/satanic activity. Or saying that the legends of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table are satanic. Or saying that the Grimm's Fairy Tales are satanic. Or that The Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter are satanic. Or Alice in Wonderland, for that matter. Oh, or Beowulf. Or Homer. The roots of D&D (and the fantasy genre at large) can be found in all of these works. There is nothing demonic or satanic about storytelling. And that's all D&D is: storytelling.
Chippy_the_Devourer 12-28-06, 07:51 PM	I am the worlds biggest christan (REALLY NO JOKE) IN the name of the father, son, and holy spirit. oh yeah I play but replace the polytheist religion with the epic battle between god and Satan God bless those who scorn him :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :bow: :bow: :bow: You know what's ironic? I'm bordering on atheist, and yet, the Dante's Inferno test says I'm going to Purgatory as well.
Leaves 12-28-06, 08:01 PM	Good afternoon everyone. As you can tell by my name, I have an occupation that involves that Bible. I was in a discussion a few minutes ago about demonism/satanic activity involved in D&D. And everything came down to third and forth hand information. In past experience, I have found that has been untrustworthy. I'm not concerned with polite answers so much as the truth about the situation. If any of you have any insights or comments to make concerning this question, "Does D&D have it's roots in satanism or have any other demonic or New Age influences in it?" please feel free to share your comments. I fully realize that there will be a few people rolling their eyes. That's all right. I'm looking for an answer, thats all. thanks in advance Confessions of a DnD Addict (http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html) is a fabulous, thoughtful, concise article written by a self-described Christian who plays Dungeons&Dragons. I also like the articles on the Christian Gamers Guild (http://www.christian-gamers-guild.org/) webpage.
Zhores 12-28-06, 10:53 PM	Missionary, I hope you will keep in mind the audience of this message board when interpreting these replies. This is the official board of the company which (currently) publishes Dungeons and Dragons. Those who post here are those who enjoy the hobby enough to take the time to register and use the boards. This is of course the community best able to give you an insiders view of the game. It is also one which, quite understandibly so, might easily take offense at an implied link between their hobby and satanism. Also keep in mind the history. As linked above, several groups have over the years tried to stigmatize D&D. There are still many people who have opinions influenced by groups like MADD which are based entirely upon the lies of a few individuals trying to make a name - and more than a few dollars - for themselves (hardly what one would consider to be Christian activities). Because of this completely unfounded and unjust past persecution many are still very sensitive to any implied attack. Also, this game in particular and the roleplaying hobby in general have been around since the mid 70s at least. Wizards of the Coast has been publishing the game since 1997; the third edition was published in 2000 and was the first version to be wholly created by Wizards of the Coast, who bought the previous publisher TSR in 1997. The game has gone through several distinct versions over the years and has been influenced by many, many designers. The original creators have not been heavily involved with Dungeons and Dragons itself for over 20 years. As to your question, the answer to most people would be most assuradly not. Speaking as someone who has read nearly all of the main rulebooks released over the years I can definetly tell you it does not encourage what I would consider to be satanism or demonic activity. Demons, gods and mythological figures of all kinds often play a prominent role in the imaginary settings of Dungeons and Dragons but it no more condones satanism thany any work of fiction that features such characters. That, of course, is the cause of the quibble about what "most people" would consider to be satansim. There are those who consider books like The Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter to be evil and corrupting. If you subscribe to such a world view then I doubt there is anything that could sway your mind from the corallary that D&D must also work to such nefarious ends. It is a game, a social one and quite enjoyable, which takes place entirely in a fictional setting. Sometimes a setting created by one of the players and sometimes one purchased from a third party. There have been no shortage of those in the past who have condemned any work of fiction as the work of the devil. Even those who have been willing to kill, maim and torture those who would create or posess such. But to the overwhelming majority of christians D&D poses no threat whatsoever.
journeyman777 12-28-06, 11:16 PM	Consider it telling that the man who wrote the Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells says in an interview that he intended for the description of the hells to be so terrible that players would avoid playing even morally borderline characters to avoid them being consigned to the hells. The Book of Vile Darkness (the most in depth supplement of evil in D&D) specifically notes that the material is intended only for the DM. The PHB itself notes that evil alignments "are for monsters and villians". So, while demons, devils, and cultists devoted to such may appear in the game, they are always considered the enemy. (No descriptions of actual rituals are ever detailed BTW) Unless you have an issue with magic in general or the existance of multiple gods in most settings, there really isn't anything to object to. I am a Christian. I play D&D. I study logic and philosophy at the college level. I find no contradiction between the two and I have yet to find anything satanic in nearly a decade of play. Join a game and see for yourself.
pres_man 12-29-06, 02:22 AM	The biggest influences of D&D are: 1)Military combat simulations designed to teach officers tactics. 2)Lord of the Rings/Hobbit. Of course these have their own influences and D&D draws on a lot more than just these. But these are the biggest influences for mechanics and flavor.
Mordent_Sage 12-29-06, 03:13 AM	The PHB itself notes that evil alignments "are for monsters and villians". So, while demons, devils, and cultists devoted to such may appear in the game, they are always considered the enemy. (No descriptions of actual rituals are ever detailed BTW) Unless you have an issue with magic in general or the existance of multiple gods in most settings, there really isn't anything to object to. Although it is possible to play evil characters (and evil campaigns), the entire system, as Journeyman said, is set up for the players to be the good guys. Then, they defeat the bad guys (who could be demon/devil worshipers, if you want. It gives the DM a larger number of monsters to choose from). I support this claim as follows: most evil spells are long term debilitation effects. Bestow curse (and the dozens of other evil curses), contagion etc are for the long haul - if the PCs use them in normal combat, they're wasting their time, because the foe will either be killed or will flee. So either they're dead, or cursed/diseased etc far away - in which case, who cares? They're not real, and no in-game benifit is being gained from the spell. These spells (and classes, effects and abilities) are clearly designed for the bad guys to use on the good guys (the players) in order to present them with long term problems/challenges, regardless of whether the evil cultist then dies (which s/he most likely will!). In conculsion - D&D contains evil themes, spells and creatures. However, this is only to give the good-guy-players something to vanquish. It's very difficult to have an epic struggle between good and evil if there's only good in the system! If people choose to play evil campaigns/characters, then that's their choice. It's only a game, after all.
Escef 12-29-06, 03:20 AM	May I suggest that we try to avoid our normal array of abreviations and acronyms? Missionary is very likely unfamiliar with them, and it will only make him sit there and wonder what exactly it is we're talking about. For example, if I came on here talking about my LES, BASD, DEROS, ESD, and ERB you would likely have no clue what I was talking about. (For the curious, they're terms for military pay and enlistment details.)
joshua1977 12-29-06, 03:46 AM	first off let me apoligise for all my misspellings. I am not well versen in the wrighten word. My father interduced me to the gam 20 odd years ago. I started in 1st Ed. and have played each Ed as they came out. so I feel I know some small amount about the game. As to your question it seems to me that those who belive the game is "of the devile" are missguided. it is a game and nothing more. the largest objection that I know of is 2 fold aginst the game by the cristion comminuity. 1st it dose incurgage fantisty deitied and has them perform acts that mimic manny gods or ledgions of the gods doings and goings ons, 2nd is the fact that the game incorprates the use of magic and most point to Exidious 22 18 "thou shall not suffer a witch to live" wich is a miss tranlation it should read "thou shall not suffer a poisonier to live." I can not directly contridict these points but I will say this. ANYthing may be taken to excess and no matter what religion you hold true this is not a good happenice. If you would like to discuss the matter futher I would be happy to reply. my e-mail is joshua_lnk@yahoo.com feel free to send me mail becouse I do not know how offten I will be able to get to the boards.
joshua1977 12-29-06, 04:06 AM	Rpgfan you wrote: "D&D doesn't have roots in satanism. Yes it does. No, it doesn't. What about this then? That's just a joke and you know it. Hello, I have MPD and only Role Playing can calm the voices in my head. That, or I'm messing with you. Take your pick." but it is not as big of a joke as you might think. many mental hostipituals ust roleplaying games such as AD&D to assist them in the treatment of their "gests" :):P:) I know becouse a friend of mine spent a few mounths in such a place. she said it was great fun, as long as they stayed in charter. hehehe:)
a_psh 12-29-06, 05:04 AM	Higher-level stuff, without any attempt to emphasize the "good" parts of the game. Sorry if parts of this are a rehash of what you already know... RPGs, briefly: Roleplaying games (well, pen-and-paper games RPGs, as the term "RPG" means anything and everything when it's a video game), in general, are about the exploration of a shared imaged space. Stress on "imagined": the people at the table are actively creating the fiction that they're working with. It's a social activity because, well, it's shared. Everyone is contributing to the shared fiction and everyone is accepting others' contributions (with a method for resolving conflicts, of course). In that regard, it's a bit more than just "make-believe with rules," which is how some people describe it, though still fairly close. A game system provides the group with a set of rules and guidelines to use in play. Most also help to establish a backdrop for the game (D&D's rules, for example, make it a fantasy adventure game). Most RPGs incorporate dice as a way to add uncertainty and spontaneity to the game. Many RPGs incorporate various tactical challenges, but not all. Some RPGs have rules that strive to emulate realistic outcomes, while others are lighter or more abstract. For example, one game may have you choose one of many attack types, roll against your opponent to see whether you struck home and how hard, and then consult a chart to generate a verisimilar result, such as "broken ribs, some internal bleeding," while another may just have players declare their goals for a scene and roll some dice to see who gets to narrate its resolution. RPGs have elements of simulation (making your shared fiction feel "realistic" or verisimilar) and storytelling (making the fiction, well, go somewhere), as well as game-like elements (chance, skill, resource-management). Different systems and different gaming groups emphasize these in different proportions. Most RPGs assume that each player has one character that he's in charge of, except for the game master (GM), who runs everything else. Who has what power and how various duties are split varies strongly from group to group. Suffice it to say, in a traditional RPG, the GM acts as a referee, decides what characters that the players don't control are doing, and is generally "in charge". D&D calls this guy the DM, or Dungeon Master, because the game was originally all about "dungeons" (see below). D&D's origin, hazily: Dungeons & Dragons specifically is the oldest RPG, grandfather of all the others. The original D&D came out of a miniatures wargame. The system has gone through a number of changes and revisions in the past, and its modern incarnation is, in some ways, quite different from the one played in the 80s and 90s (some people still play those older versions, too, of course). The proto-game was a bit like taking the model soldiers you use in a tabletop wargame (and model monsters, too, since we're talking about a fantasy wargame) and trying to turn them from game tokens into characters -- entities with backgrounds and personalities. You can't really pick out a canonical "first version" of D&D, but the original game was rather small in scale. The focus was on the characters having one particular adventure in a some kind of fantastical locale. It was all about the "dungeon" (which the game uses liberally to refer to all kinds of underground spaces, such as caves, ruins, and crypts) in particular because the physical layout of the world is a series of decision points. "Do I go left or do I go right?" Think of navigating a dungeon as a bit like playing one of those "choose your own adventure" books. The game quickly grew in scope, however, such that there was a whole world around the characters. Gygax and Arneson brought in numerous elements from their favorite sources -- Lord of the Rings, Robert E. Howard's Conan stories, Moorcock's Elric stories, a bit of Vance's Dying Earth stories and Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos, Norse mythology, random science fiction, all kinds of stuff -- to make the setting for their games (and the implicit setting for anyone who bought the books, since the books contained information and game rules about some of that stuff). They borrowed quite a lot from various mythologies, but I think it's safe to say that most of the inspiration for the "fluff" (description and world detail) of the game was that mythology filtered through modern sources like Tolkien. Various jokes also got incorporated pretty quickly into the main body of the game, and are still around today. Many of these are references. One of the items in the game is called a "vorpal sword," which references Lewis Carol's poem "Jabberwocky". Others are just persistent jokes based on jokes that the designers made at their table. There is a group of monsters shaped like various polyhedrons, for example, because you could use dice to represent them when you didn't have any miniatures. While people often talk about it as a "generic" fantasy RPG, D&D is full of all kinds of little quirks, such as the stuff mentioned above. Specifically, the game has a "high fantasy" feel (very vaguely like LotR) and the game rules -- which often strive to strike a middle ground between detailed and abstract -- can make characters seem superheroic at times. Think dragonslaying knights and pointy-hatted wizards and you're not far off. D&D's sources, semi-sarcastically: Influence from actual occult texts is, well, laughably minimal. Here's just one example... Magic. The flavor of D&D magic is ridiculously unfaithful to real-world traditions (such as ancient beliefs about magic or Crowley's occult stuff). The spellcasting system is most directly inspired by Jack Vance's Dying Earth, which has a rather unique (and, some would say, incongruous) approach to magic, based on spells as these weird things that you memorize and then forget when you cast them (in the books, they're almost like thoughts with their own life force, although this isn't something that's well-explained in D&D itself). D&D spells involve words, gestures, and material components, but the game never defines the words or gestures (many of them are as simple as pointing, given how quickly you can cast the spell -- very few spells are ritualistic in nature, despite the fact that that's what most real-world magical beliefs), and material components are obviously thematically related to the spell in question, often in a jokey way (for example, you rub a glass rod on some fur to make lightning). Okay, seriously, rubbing a glass rod on some fur to make lightning... how silly is that?
dnddreamer 12-29-06, 05:22 AM	There isn't much more that I can say that Zhores and Mordent_Sage didn't say during their posts. Wonderful job in my opinion for the response to the Original Posters questions. Also, I agree with Seeker95...call out the evidence from those that think this game is based on Satanic roots. Gondor stated that D&D is to Satan what Monopoly is to Satan. I for one use Monopoly when agruing the claim that "D&D is a satanic game". What is Monopoly based on: GREED. What is greed...I believe it is one of the 7 deadly sins. Granted greed, lust, envy, wraith, glutteny, sloth and pride are within the confines of our beloved game also but what extent do individuals put on those traits is truely up to the gamer. Thank of that saying, What Would Jesus Do? Would Jesus sit down and play a game of Monopoly with you. Most of the christians I know would say yes. In fact the seven years that I spent as a counselor at a Christian Bible camp, many of the weekends between camp sessions were spent playing monopoly. Sorry, going alittle off topic, correct me if I'm wrong...but the idea of D&D came from war gaming fans. It didn't come from Satan himself or satan worship. That was the moral-majorities belief when they didn't like what they saw on the front covers of the books and also if they were bold enough to look inside. And I'm sorry to say this here...but I need to call out someone else's post. CzarGarrett...please I need help understanding why you said "perhaps LaVey influenced the ideals and precepts of a handful of divine beings" because it is these kind of qoutes that give the D&D haters a reason for saying the "D&D is Satan's game". Just my two cent's worth.
dnddreamer 12-29-06, 05:23 AM	[QUOTE=a_psh;11029719]Higher-level stuff, without any attempt to emphasize the "good" parts of the game. Sorry if parts of this are a rehash of what you already know... QUOTE] Great response!!!
Escef 12-29-06, 07:47 AM	Great response!!! Dreamer, could you perchance edit your post so that the quote just contains the word <snip>? You quoted a huge post just to add one sentence to it, that's such a waste. Besides, a_psh doesn't need his ego fluffed that much. ;)
dnddreamer 12-29-06, 12:14 PM	Dreamer, could you perchance edit your post so that the quote just contains the word <snip>? You quoted a huge post just to add one sentence to it, that's such a waste. Besides, a_psh doesn't need his ego fluffed that much. ;) I did a long post right before that one. a_psh did his post while I was doing mine...I would of commented more but it was getting late.
toxikhiro 12-29-06, 12:26 PM	I dunno about the roots, but I do know that it doesn't advocate satanism, as per Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, Pg25. Devil Worship Devil Worshippers are easily the most despicable of mortals... So, yeah.
a_psh 12-29-06, 04:17 PM	I did a long post right before that one. a_psh did his post while I was doing mine...I would of commented more but it was getting late.I think he means that you should edit your quote of me down to a "SNIP" or a "..." so that it doesn't cause two copies of my long post to exist side-by-side. Like so, for example: <SNIP />
Seeker95 12-29-06, 04:18 PM	.I would of commented more but it was getting late.It is still not too late to edit it down, so that you are not adding a two word reply to a seventy line quote.
a_psh 12-29-06, 05:45 PM	Great response!!!I thought it was a bit overlong. Also, there was some stuff I really wanted to put in there but didn't have the chance to. Specifically, some comparison with other forms of entertainment, more of an example of play, and some stuff about the games that would actually be somewhat religiously offensive if anybody outside of the community (or even inside the community, in some cases) knew about it. And some discussion of "demons". Lets try to do that now... Standard D&D has a fanciful cosmology, often called the Great Wheel, with planes of separate existence for the primordial elements and for the gods. Gods are a bit like Greek gods -- each has a specific thematic focus (like how Hades was a god of wealth and death), and none of them are transcendentally all-powerful. In most settings, it is possible for mortals to become gods. Some settings feature an "overgod" -- an instructible, all-powerful entity that is as far above gods as they are above mortals, usually left pretty undefined in the source material. The overgod concept is basically a big honkin's rip-off of Eru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eru_Iluvatar) from Tolkien. 'Nuff said. ;) These planes of existence include the "Upper Planes," populated by various kinds of celestial beings (many of them vaguely angelic), and the "Lower Planes," populated by various demonic beings, collectively called fiends. The two primary kinds are demons and devils. Basically a big chaotic horde vs. an elaborate heirarchy. And "vs" is appropriate, since they are locked in an endless war (and squabble a lot internally, too). The Lower Planes mix a lot of different mythologies together. Christian mythology included. (I'm not trying to offend when I say "Christian mythology". There's just no way some gibberish made up by a bunch of medieval and Renaissance theologians and "demonologists," stuff like the exact number of demons in hell and about how Satan can assume any form but only makes it out of inanimate elements and has to get his evil seed out of other people and how you can fly if you rub yourself with magic oil and all that, actually counts as part of Christian religion, however. I think most modern Christians would agree.) So, for example, you've got a model of hell that looks like Dante's Inferno tucked in there. You've also got the River Styx flowing all over the place, and a bit of Norse flavor here and there, and a bunch of stuff that's just made up out of nowhere. In most games, the player characters tend to stay on their own (material) plane of existence, so none of the above really comes up all that much. As originally written, the planes were a bit like a playground for high-level characters (the concept of adventuring to gain levels should be familiar from any video game RPG), where they could go and beat up on these powerful paramortal beings. Demons &c. can be worshipped and bargained with in the typical D&D world. When venerated, they're false gods -- while worshipping evil gods is misanthropic, worshipping demons is just plain misguided as well (they don't have the same power as an evil god, and are actively trying to deceive you to make you think they do). Most fiends focus primarily on something other than corrupt worship, such as encouraging avarice, corrupting mortals with sexuality, or just plain tricking people into signing away their souls. Actually, most demons the player characters will run into in a D&D game are probably just random enemies to fight. The ones that aren't are usually hidden antagonists in an adventure set up like a mystery (who's provoking the townspeople to kill each other or whatever). For a while, the game publishers renamed demons and devils in order to avoid some of the controversy. Now they're called "demons" and "devils," with the names they made up for them being used for specific types. They've also added more stuff about demon-worship and possession in the various ancillary books now that publishing that isn't a big deal. The stuff I said above still applies and, compared to other ways to gain power, worshipping demons is, well, crappy. But some skeleton of rules is there, as there is for everything (D&D is very heavy on rules if you consider all the secondary books published for it to be part of the game). As far as descriptive text, there's a lot of generalities. Everything in D&D is pretty much generalities. For example, there are rules for becoming a lich -- a way for a wizard to live forever by becoming a powerful undead -- that basically say "you need 120,000 gold peices, the special ability to make this type of item, and then there's some unspeakable ritual". That's basically it. "Unspeakable ritual." Yawn, huh? As far as demons go, think of D&D as something like the video game Diablo (but with more control over how violent/gorey you do or don't want it to be) -- aside from a few plot points where them being corrupters of men is important, demons &c. are basically just enemies to beat up on, no different from skeletons or dragons or whatever.
thecosmicgoose 12-29-06, 06:33 PM	Good afternoon everyone. As you can tell by my name, I have an occupation that involves that Bible. I was in a discussion a few minutes ago about demonism/satanic activity involved in D&D. And everything came down to third and forth hand information. In past experience, I have found that has been untrustworthy. I'm not concerned with polite answers so much as the truth about the situation. If any of you have any insights or comments to make concerning this question, "Does D&D have it's roots in satanism or have any other demonic or New Age influences in it?" please feel free to share your comments. I fully realize that there will be a few people rolling their eyes. That's all right. I'm looking for an answer, thats all. thanks in advance a perfectly reasonable question. let me say that its nice to see someone actually asking about it rather then jumping to conclusions. but let me give you a ward of caution, what you ask is a sensitive subject round these parts. we've gotten allot of flack about it, so tempers get raised quicker then they should sometimes. in truth, the answer to this question depends on what your definition of "satanism" really is. some fundamentalist sects view anything that deviates even slightly from their view of "Christian" as being satanic. while others are more open minded. without knowing your stance on this issue, its difficult to answer your questions completely. but IL true to cover the big points of contention. remember, DnD is derived from a conglomeration of all fantasy fiction. much of its game mechanics and settings take their cue from staples in the fantasy literature community. I'd even go so far to say that if you sat down with someone who was exceedingly familiar with fantasy literature, you could point to a rule, or setting feature, and get them to tell you which fictions they game from. Magic: Magic is a huge part of the DnD experience. the exact form magic takes depends largely on the setting in which you play. but in most of them, magic is something of a "soft science" that practitioners use to manipulate and shape naturally occurring energies within the world. not unlike the Jedi from star wars. Polytheism: many DnD settings (including the default one presented in the core book) are polytheistic in nature. with multiple gods, and no one "true" god among them. some of them are good, some evil, some of them in between. Evil: the presence of evil people and creatures is another staple of fantasy literature. but almost always these manifestations of evil are meant to be foes for the "good" heroes to overcome. allot of detail is given to the forms evil can take in the game world. but this is done with the intent to give variety to the enemies the heroes will face. it should also be noted that just as much attention (if not more) is given to the good side of the equation. supernatural creatures: like magic, there are many fantastical creatures that pepper the landscape in any fantasy setting. from dragons to fairies to goblins to ghouls. violence: DnD is primarily an action game. and like anything with the word "action" in its genre, theres lots of fighting. this violence is almost always represented with the rolling of dice. and thematically is in line with the idea that the "good guys" and vanquishing the "bad guys" and finally, the big fact that you should always remember: its all make-believe no one who's sane actually believes this stuff is real. all of the players (i hope) know that this is nothing more then an exercise in imagination. there is no such thing as magic, dragons, or evil gods plotting to overthrow the good towns-folk. you are not a mystical powerful wizard, brawny fighter, or graceful elf. you just pretend to be for a few hours on weekends. if by some quark of fate someone does actually believe what they read in the DnD books, their nuts. like, REALLY nuts. and were nuts a loooong time before DnD ever entered the picture, and probably for reasons that have nothing to do with any game. its easy to make things like DnD into a scapegoat when bad things happen. but truth be told, DnD cannot make someone commit murder, worship fictional gods, or try to cast spells. that choice is all up to the person who makes them. i hope this helps. if you have any other questions, or would like me to expand on one of my answers, feel free to PM me.
fatal error 12-29-06, 10:41 PM	Just looking around at the types of posts made should give you an idea of the extent to which most D&D players are satanists. That is, not at all. Mostly we're obsessed with telling each other how to play correctly and how the sometimes vague rules should be interpreted.
Sphyre 12-30-06, 01:05 AM	Your answer, if viewed by others, would only enhance their position that D&D players are somehow mentally deficient. (And other things) Ah, classic conversational terrorism. It's been a while since I've read this. It sure is telling that you would throw around rude comments about our intelligence while hiding behind the old cover of "it's what other people think about you.". It is what some others think about you. However, my comments were not intended to be rude. If I came across that way, you have my apologies. Confessions of a DnD Addict (http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html) is a fabulous, thoughtful, concise article written by a self-described Christian who plays Dungeons&Dragons. I also like the articles on the Christian Gamers Guild (http://www.christian-gamers-guild.org/) webpage. A common pitfall of humans in general is the fact that they are, in fact, autonymous. They think on their own. Everyone has their own point of veiw. When you only have one point of veiw it's very easy to point fingers at people. In fact from the article that Leaves presented us with I present the following quote: The third problem about Dungeons & Dragons(tm) is that Christians have by and large abandoned it to the enemy. Those who complain and condemn a game which they have never even watched let alone played have in attempting to revile the game merely blackened the eye of the church. The game is replete with players who believe that all Christians are idiots because of what some Christians have said. Others, regardless of any similarities other than simply being human, use the same train of thought to deduce that a group of people has a certain undesirable trait. Simply put others "think less of you." This is an appeal by force of mass opinion. You're attempting to get someone to agree with you by attacking them by saying "others don't think highly of you." The truth is, even if you did appeal to them through this logic fallacy, they still would be subject to the same thing, not liked my people but by a different group. The point of this? Racism, Sexism, Religionism, Hobbyism, any stereotype can be applied to anyone. Anyone can beleive they are right and everyone else is wrong. You can even beleive that you're right. In fact, why would you beleive something if you had any doubt that it was right? Having been raised christian myself, and well versed in the bible and the roman catholic church, does God give you the right to judge people? No, that is His, and His alone right to judge. To judge others is to be blasphemous by doing what God only has the right to do. From an agnostic or atheiest point of veiw, what metaphysical significance do you have to the world that makes you right over someone else? You're just another person. In fact, you're just another person with an opinion that is based solely on your own life, and not on metaphysical truth. You have no right to judge other people, because we're all wrong. The only thing you can find, is what's right for you. Missionary, the answer to your question is: No. D&D does not have its roots in satanism or have any other demonic or New Age influences in it. And no, we cannot "prove it". However, we do not have to. If someone (anyone) is claiming that it does, then the burden of proof lies upon them. If you find any evidence, share it with us, and then seek our input and feedback. Until you have evidence that implies or shows that it does, your asking such questions is rude and insulting, because it pre-supposes a truth to the non-evidenced claims. That you are asking without presenting any evidence to indicate you have a reason to believe that it does, you are basically telling us that you think it does. I beleive this needs to be repeated with emphasis. What set science free from the restriction of religion was the fact that it was scientific. It makes to meta-physical claims only theories repeatable tests and results. You are looking for facts. A scientific approach to D&D and it's origins. Science uses logic. Thusly, you should make a logical experiment if you wish to find facts. Designing an argument off a logical falacy by shifting the burden of proof is not scientific and thus you will not get results nor fact from it. From all the evidence I've seen throughout my years, even before the playing of D&D, that D&D has been a scapegoat. Indeed this is at a much smaller scale, but it's comparable to how Hitler claimed the jews were the source of all of Germany's troubles. It wasn't founded, but when appealing to masses it's easier to point at a group of people to band people together in unison than it is to bring them together by making a laundry list of what might be the signs of something bad for them. Perhaps if you wish to find facts, you should educate yourself in the ways of logic and the scientific method. By doing such, you would be able to research the topic rather than having others present "facts."
thecosmicgoose 12-30-06, 02:12 AM	i feel i should add an addendum to my post, after talking this over with some friends. they brought some good points to bare on the issue. DnD comparing DnD to satanism is sort of like comparing Christianity to the Klu-Klux-Klan. i realise thats a very confrontational way to put it, but it gets the point across. D&D may in fact have some vauge connections to satanism in some peoples minds. but the same could be said for Christianity and the KKK. in a nut shell, no, for most sane people there are no satanic influences in the game D&D. just like how christianity, for most sane people, does not condone racism in any form. that doesnt mean their arnt a few nutball satanist that play DnD, and try to make it into something it isnt. just like there are a few nutball racists in christianity, who try to warp its dogma into something it isnt.
Stuntman 12-30-06, 02:27 AM	As you can tell by my name, I have an occupation that involves that Bible. I was in a discussion a few minutes ago about demonism/satanic activity involved in D&D. And everything came down to third and forth hand information. In past experience, I have found that has been untrustworthy. I'm not concerned with polite answers so much as the truth about the situation. If any of you have any insights or comments to make concerning this question, "Does D&D have it's roots in satanism or have any other demonic or New Age influences in it?" please feel free to share your comments. As someone who has been playing D&D for over 20 years, I will say that I have never been involved in or observed any type of demonism or satanic activity involved in any of the D&D that I've played. The only people whom I've met that have seem to relate satanic activity to D&D have been a few religious people who have no knowledge about what D&D really is. It seems to be when I mention that I play D&D and the person asks of there is any such link with satanic activity. I fully realize that there will be a few people rolling their eyes. That's all right. I'm looking for an answer, thats all. thanks in advance Please, pardon my rolling eyes. It is just that I have experienced and have heard many instances where someone who is religious asks such a leading question about D&D. I tend to be frustrated by the negative stigma that D&D has particularly amoungst some religious people. I'm sure that not all religious people are so prejudice against D&D as is proven by some of the posts here. If you wouldn't mind indulging us here on the board, what was the nature of your discussion that involved D&D? I'm sure many of us would like to know if divulging that information would not breach any type of professional confidentiality.