Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ginyu549 02-15-05, 04:43 PM	I'm not sure I really want to start this arguement, but here goes... It seems to me there are two camps around these parts. Camp 1- D&D is an exercise in mathmatics. The rules are there to be "figured out" and used for an advantage. This camp includes "Powergamers" and those who enjoy making character optimization posts. It seems to me that these people put little or no effort into roleplaying or storytelling, and in fact, many of them deride that aspect of the game as secondary to character level advancement and combo feat/ability generation. Camp 2- D&D is at its heart a roleplaying game, which means you play a character in a story. Your character is a part of that story and as such should act accordingly to what is going on in the story. Numbers and rules can get in the way of the story and should be bent or re-worked to make the story, and the characters part in it work better. After seeing these arguements breaking out all over the boards I have some questions I'd like to throw out there and see what the response is. 1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) 4- How old are you? Male or female? 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) I will answer my own questions to start us off. 1- I think both camps are correct, but favor storytelling over numbers. If you want to deal with a numbers game w/o storytelling play warhammer, or a tabletop mini's game. Video games are also pretty good at this. 2- I have been playing since the fourth grade and remember all the way back to basic D&D in the red box set. (I still have my first set of dice from that set -goober- :P) 3- I have played a plethora of RP games, including gurps, cyberpunk, paranoia, merp/ICE system, warhammer and a ton of others. 4- I am a 33 yr old male. 5- As I said, storytelling is a very important part of the game for me. Sure, its not a "real" world, but I like to feel like it is. Good storytelling helps bring you into the character I feel. To me the best part of D&D is when the story and my part in it become so engrossing that for a time I can leave my real self behind, and actually feel like I AM this other person, in another time and place. To me that is the "fantasy" aspect of a fantasy roleplaying game. Not so much the fantastic setting, but that you can live out your own fantasy to be someone other than yourself. ( I have to admit that there is a fair bit of the drama-geek in me). 6- In the games I play, some as DM and some as a player that is, Romance, pig farming, throwing parties, and many other "character building" non-numbers crunching situations are quite prolific. They are probably close to equal with the combat or skill-oriented situations that arise. I have a player in a game I DM whose character is married, but has a child with another woman in a far away locale. ( the other woman was a fling he had in our first session and he only found out about it after he was married). 7- Sure, the DM is in some ways your nemisis as a player. (they do play your rivals/enemies) But I don't see it as a competition. The point of D&D is to have fun and immerse yourself in something that can take you away from things like Iraqi insurgence, Political Bullpucky, Crappy day-jobs, and bills etc... for a while so you can become a "hero" or a "villian" and try to experience what it would be like (at least a little) to really be Sam, or Frodo, or Legolas, or Gimli, or any of those other great characters we all know and love (Tanis half-elven, Taran the wanderer). Well, there you have it. My hope here is to understand more how people play the game and what they have fun with. "LET'S GET IT ON!!!"
StormKnight 02-15-05, 05:12 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? 2, 2, 2 Focusing on stats and building powerful characters and seeing how they fare is great fun - for a boardgame. 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? 1st Ed and AD&D - skipped 2nd entirely 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) GURPS, Runequest, Star Frontiers, James Bond, Marvel Super Heroes, Marvel SAGA, Most of the World of Darkness, BESM, Dragon Storm, L5R, 7th Sea, Rifts, TMNT, Beyond the Supernatural, Call of Cthulu, Paranoia, Ironclaw, Shadowrun and more. 4- How old are you? Male or female? What's that got to do with it? 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? Err...getting to play out adventure, solve problems, be creative ,"experience" things that I can't in a more interactive manner than a movie or book, and just plain hang out with friends and have something fun to do. 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? Which is it, are you asking about friendship and romance, or "unimportant" story elements? ;) (Married - yes, kids - not in game, though a game or two has started out with a character that is a child of older retired characters) 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? No. Never. Absolutely not ever. What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) To have fun.
Lina_Inverse 02-15-05, 05:15 PM	camp 3-the true and proper path xD-D&D is above all else a game,therefore it has rules and is ment to be FUN.part of the fun of D&D is being someone your not.part of the fun of D&D is bashing monsters with enough power to level small citys.
Ginyu549 02-15-05, 05:21 PM	Originally posted by StormKnight What's that got to do with it? Nothing I can see, but I have a theory that people of different ages and sexes will generally play the game differently. I just want to see if that pans out. For example, do females RP more than males, or do older people do more RP than younger folks? It's just a question, don't take offense. Originally posted by StormKnight Which is it, are you asking about friendship and romance, or "unimportant" story elements? I would consider any non-xp granting situations "unimportant"(in quotes) Sure, it is important to camp 2, but for camp 1 it would be somewhat meaningless. BTW- you skipped question 5, thats my favorite question... :weep: (aha, editing does wonders) :D
General_Ridley 02-15-05, 06:04 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? 2, but 1 is mildly important 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? about a year 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) uh, none really 4- How old are you? Male or female? 16, male 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? the roleplaying 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? often, no, but hopefully one day 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) no. The point isd to have a good time.
LukiLoki 02-15-05, 06:10 PM	Camp 1- D&D is an exercise in mathmatics. The rules are there to be "figured out" and used for an advantage. This camp includes "Powergamers" and those who enjoy making character optimization posts. It seems to me that these people put little or no effort into roleplaying or storytelling, and in fact, many of them deride that aspect of the game as secondary to character level advancement and combo feat/ability generation. This is such a common misconception, that optimization of a PC ("powergaming" if you prefer) is somehow incompatible with good roleplaying. Well, it's B.S. (that's "Beholder Spit"). The tendency of the group is going to have a lot to do with how it is viewed, first of all. Since most of the "math excercise" element is limited to min-maxing for combat, it's going to run contrary to a game that is mostly about NPC interactions, politics, love and friendship, what have you. In that case, it's not lack of roleplaying, it's misplaced priorities. And I question whether D&D is the optimal system for exploring such play, but that's another point altogether. Second, be aware that most of the monstrosities peddled on the Optimization Board are not really meant to be "played", in any meaningful sense. There's nothing wrong with such excercises, per se, as long as they're understood as just that. That's not D&D, though. That's solitaire. The majority of (power)gamers love to roleplay. It just happens that they especially love to roleplay exceptional characters. That's what the game expects. That's what a DM expects. That's what one's fellow players expect. So, to me, if you're not "min-maxing" (defined here as "not bringing a sub-optimal character to the table"), to some degree, then you're "playing the game poorly", (defined here as "not contributing fully to the mutual enjoyment of the other participants in the game"). There are some really good essays on the subject available over on The Forge (it's a .net, I think). The idea is that a lot of these issues arise because different people are looking for different experiences out of RPG's, and that failure of communication about these expectations is what leads to problems, not that one set of expectations is "right" and the others are "wrong". I invite everyone who thinks about these issues to check it out. I'll look into linking it up in another post.
StormKnight 02-15-05, 06:29 PM	Nothing I can see, but I have a theory that people of different ages and sexes will generally play the game differently. I just want to see if that pans out. For example, do females RP more than males, or do older people do more RP than younger folks? It's just a question, don't take offense. No real offense taken, for some reason I just am not crazy about answering that on a "survey". I would consider any non-xp granting situations "unimportant"(in quotes) Sure, it is important to camp 2, but for camp 1 it would be somewhat meaningless. Sorry if I was unclear...trying to be humorous and failing I suppose...my point was to me that emotions/relations and such are very important for a game - to me they are the whole point of playing an RPG over a board game dungeon crawl! I should also note that my comment about the stats part being for a fun for a boardgame isn't meant to be deragatory - I love boardgames and play them a LOT. I love dungeon crawl boardgames, and am still trying to work out a really good way of using the core D&D system for a straight dungeon crawl boardgame. Its just that the whole reason I sit down to play an RPG instead of a boardgame is to get to get into a character and roleplay things that a boardgame/wargame can't cover.
11d7 02-15-05, 06:49 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? Both but I favor camp 2. If I wanted to play a pure number game...wait I'd never do that but I dont see a problem with making powerful builds if thats whats called for, I will never play something something I cant explain or even make an NPC I cant explain. 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? I have been playing since 2nd Edition but only for a few months before 3.0 came out. By the time I bought my own books however I waited till 3.5. 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) None other than d20 modern. 4- How old are you? Male or female? 17, I don't define the second part of the question. 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? The best part is roleplaying a character with a group I actualy like with a good story, I hate it when I'm rping a crap unthoughout world or am dealing with character my character would not get along with...usually leads to retirment. 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? If I'm Dming I through it in as much as possable, if playing not so much because most groups I've played with dont like do that. 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) D&D isnt a competition between players and DM unless the players make it that way through insane munchkining or personality. Ideally the DM presents a realisitcly run world (given in game cercustance) and doesnt include anything that would make the world to unstable to exist for as long as it has **couph**forgotten realms**couph**. The point of playing D&D is to be creative and have fun aslong as the fun does not break the above mentioned rule. 'Realism' is more important than balence and rules that get in the way of it should be removed unless the group is to immature to not abuse this right.
Molu Kai 02-15-05, 06:56 PM	I'll answer this survey. Good luck with it. I admit I am curious to see the results as well 1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? I prefer the roleplaying/storytelling aspect. However, I am a stickler for the rules as well. I kind of look at them like the laws of physics and will only house rule something if absolutely necessary. 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? I have been playing D&D for over 20 years. I too had the red box basic set. Got it when I was 9 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) I have played Palladium Fantasy RPG, Heroes Unlimited, Rifts, Top Secret, Twilight 2000, Beyond the Supernatural, Ninjas and Superspies, and Recon 4- How old are you? Male or female? I am 29, male 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? I really enjoy world building. I like to come up with interesting worlds, NPCs and situations for my players to get involved with. 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? This occupies only about 10% of my game. I would have more, but my group is too large to focus on one PCs social life (the rest of them will get bored). I have had PCs get married, but no children. 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) Of course not. It is about telling a great story and making sure everyone has fun.
psionichamster 02-15-05, 07:01 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? definitely #2...i've played tons of casters, a few melee types, but it's the ones with the awesome stories that i remember (like the gnomish cleric who ended up the consort of death) 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? um...11 years? something like that...and yes, that gnome above was a 2ed char. 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) world of darkness (briefly), shadowrun (my first), cyberpunk, immortal, freeform, d20 modern 4- How old are you? Male or female? 24 yo male 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? figuring out the strange and twisted things about the world (or making them up and revealing them to pc's)...learning about magic/the gods/the far planes over and over again (in character) 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? from time to time...i have not had a married pc, but i have run plenty, and played alongside a few. romance, friendship, betrayal, and other such "unimportant" plots are part and parcel of my games. combat ensues BECAUSE of these things, not the other way around 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) no. it's fun. (and i agree...unless you count the memories as prizes) good luck with the data tabulation namaste, the hamster
Ginyu549 02-15-05, 07:24 PM	Originally posted by LukiLoki: This is such a common misconception, that optimization of a PC ("powergaming" if you prefer) is somehow incompatible with good roleplaying. Well, it's B.S. (that's "Beholder Spit"). (Beholder Spit, good one!) I agree that there may be a misconception here, but if so, (for me anyway) it comes directly from reading posts that say things like " The story is unimportant" or "D&D is at best a number crunching exercise" or "if you want to tell a story write it down and don't inflict it on your players." These are not direct quotes, but I have see many similar sentiments posted all over the place, thus, I am asking these questions in part to clarify my own ideas about how people play the game, and what they enjoy about it. I appriciate the sentiments, but would rather you answered the questions than try to "enlighten" us post readers on our misconceptions or "poor playing". This thread is not meant to be an arguement, but a collection of individual opinions. Yours are welcome as long as they are not inflamatory. Originally posted by LukiLoki: a lot of these issues arise because different people are looking for different experiences out of RPG's, and that failure of communication about these expectations is what leads to problems, not that one set of expectations is "right" and the others are "wrong". Once again, well said, and I agree. That is why I am asking these questions. To find out what people expect out of the game and how they have fun. Perhaps if we can identify some things, it might help us all enjoy the game more together. I don't want to completely discourage thoughtful discussion of the results here, but lets try not to make an arguement out of it eh?
Lina_Inverse 02-15-05, 07:40 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? camp 3.they are equal.argueing one is more importent than the other on the whole of roleplaying and not in the context of one caimpaign ruins both. 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? 9 years,half my life. 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) BESM,deadlands,CoC,FFreturners 4- How old are you? Male or female? 18,male 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? playing a game with my friends. 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? decently often.me personally never,several other charecters ive seen have. 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) the competition element is there definitly but merely a tool by which the dm and players challenge eachother.the point of d&d is playing a game with my friends.
Thanatos02 02-15-05, 07:57 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) 4- How old are you? Male or female? 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) I'm usually my groups DM, but I'm also a frequent player. I wonder if that makes a difference? 1. I'm a "play your character"-first kind of guy. If your character wishes to be a peerless swordsman or a powerful sorcerer, then build accordingly. I do keep in mind that players rarely wish to be the norm (we're roleplaying here, not working), but, as a DM, I enforce a certain degree of realism. Power takes work in-game, not number-crunching out of game. Play your character first, metagame not at all. 2-3. Advanced D&D, Mage, Hunter, Exalted, Paranoia, Warcraft,All Flesh Must Be Eaten, 1st Ed., Children of the Sun, Tri-Stat, d20 Modern. Considering that I've listed the other D&D games, I think 3 is answered too. I don't remember how long I've been at this. 4. I'm a male, 21. 5. I play at different times for different reasons, and different games have different themes. The unifying enjoyment factor is that I can explore different mind sets and do things that are really, honestly extraordinary (hopefully without totally destroying the illusion, and so prefer a degree of realism so as not to notice too many large logic holes. I notice those easily.). 6. Frequently, both in games I run, and games I play in. If personal relationships arn't part of the theme, then they accent the world we live in, and give us humanizing goals that make sense and give purpose to the adventuring lifestyle (or whatever we're doing). 7. Gaming isn't a contest, which would be pointless. The DM, at any moment, might destroy everything with ease. It is better that the DM is transparent until the game is over. It should be fun for everyone.
Braids 02-15-05, 08:12 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? I favor no side. I pretty much roleplay as well as I play [Though I do find roleplaying well to feel better than just rolling well.] 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? About a year, and I only played 3e 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) Just D&D. 4- How old are you? Male or female? 17, male 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? I suppose my favorite part of the game is the roleplaying [even though i'm not any good]. 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? Friendships with NPCs happen every once in a while, but I'm pretty imature so I never go near romance or related subjects. 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) I never really think of it as competition as it distracts me from the roleplaying, but it is there.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-15-05, 08:22 PM	1) #2. [insert mocking of #1] 2) 4.5 years, though I've gone back and fallen in love with certain portions of 2nd edition (Planescape). The flavor in some of the older books is heads above current material, even if the current rules are better IMHO. 3) Shadowrun, Earthdawn, CoC, Deadlands 4) 25 5) Character development, elaborate metaplots, watching PCs evolve over time in response to events within the game 6) Often. I've not had a game in which something like this didn't occur and didn't comprise a plot arc almost by itself 7) There is no winning the game obviously, but it's the enjoyment of playing and developing a character, exploring a world through the lens of their personality, watching a world and its various interwoven plotlines react and change in response to your character, and watching your character change in reponse to them.
Attila 02-15-05, 08:44 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? Firmly in camp 2. The characters exist only in our imaginations and therefore Roleplaying is the only reason to play the game. While using the math to maximize a character is enticing, it should take second place to character concept and story. It's an exercise in futility to maximize a character because the DM will (should) adjust the difficulty of the adventure according to the abilities of the PCs anyway. 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? 23years. I still have my 1979 AD&D hardbacks and Basic DnD box sets. 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) Star Frontiers, James Bond 007 4- How old are you? Male or female? 30 year old Male. 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? As DM: creating worlds and writing stories. As Player: exploring the unknown, saving the girl and getting the loot. 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? Never. 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) No competition, otherwise the DM would always win since he makes the rules. DnD is a cooperative effort between the players and the DM. They have to work together to make it fun and enjoyable.
green_yawgmoth 02-15-05, 08:59 PM	I'm not sure I really want to start this arguement, but here goes... It seems to me there are two camps around these parts. Camp 1- D&D is an exercise in mathmatics. The rules are there to be "figured out" and used for an advantage. This camp includes "Powergamers" and those who enjoy making character optimization posts. It seems to me that these people put little or no effort into roleplaying or storytelling, and in fact, many of them deride that aspect of the game as secondary to character level advancement and combo feat/ability generation. You have drawn my ire with this part of your post. I believe that the stats are important, and that rules are needed. That's why it's called a GAME, and not "freestyle roleplaying time. why did you even buy this book?" But after I make a character using the rules and the stats and all of the math, I come up with a backstory, description, and personality to justify them all, and I make damn sure that I roleplay said character as much as possible. I just like knowing that if it comes down to combat, I can keep my ass out of the -1 to -10 range. What really irks me is that most of the time, the "I roleplay not rollplay"ers say that min/maxers are unable to RP, but you never hear a min/maxer say that people who prefer 100% roleplaying can't min/max. I firmly believe that people who mock min/maxers/powergamers are simply jealous that they can't develop a character that doesn't suck when it comes down to numbers, and doesn't have to rely entirely on luck and staying 50 feet away from whatever is attacking. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Arcane Guyver 02-15-05, 09:29 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? #2, I suppose. I'm not so much for bending rules or numbers, but I do believe the characters and atmosphere come first, gamey-stuff second (if you just want to play a tactical fantasy warfare game where the point is to bash monsters, you're better off playing a GBA). My personal approach to character rolling is imagine a character, and then see how the rules can be used to fit that character concept. Later in-game, if a big decision comes up - it's the character's decision, not mine...no metagaming away from deadly choices. If a character concept is "sub-optimal", so be it. 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? Not real long. I started towards the end of 3e, and had to re-buy the core books for 3.5e. I own 2e PHB & DMG and have read through both, and one of my players used to play it back in the day. I'd love to get my hands ahold of earlier editions, just for kicks. 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) No video games? :weep: Eheh, well I played the old Star Wars RPG pre-d20, and own a couple other games. The only other RPG I've really put any time into, however, is Mutants and Masterminds. 4- How old are you? Male or female? 24, male. 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? I'm not sure. I do love creating characters. Also, there's ever-present challenge of surprising and engrossing the players. 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? Never seriously - my current group probably isn't up to that, yet. I've never had a character around long enough to develop a relationship. 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) Competition? :eek: No. The point is to have fun, try different things, and hopefully create characters and situations you'll all talk about for years to come.
Ginyu549 02-15-05, 09:59 PM	Originally posted by green_yawgmoth: What really irks me is that most of the time, the "I roleplay not rollplay"ers say that min/maxers are unable to RP, but you never hear a min/maxer say that people who prefer 100% roleplaying can't min/max. I firmly believe that people who mock min/maxers/powergamers are simply jealous that they can't develop a character that doesn't suck when it comes down to numbers, and doesn't have to rely entirely on luck and staying 50 feet away from whatever is attacking. Whoah, there is no mocking going on here, and I'm not sure why I drew your ire, as I explained in an earlier post I am meerly presenting things as I have seen them in the forums. Not everyone falls cleanly into one camp or the other, but you yorself insist that there are two aspects to the game, and both are important. I am meerly asking what your game preference and experience are to compare them to others. So far it looks like EVERYONE is in camp 2 since the two possible min/maxers who bothered to post didn't answer the questions, but instead passively attacked part of the original post. And, I have never in all my browsing of the boards seen anyone say min/maxers can't roleplay. (though just because I haven't seen them doesn't mean those opinions don't exist) For the record, I like Powergaming as a player but detest it as a DM. (does that make me a hypocrite?) Reason being that it makes the DM's job even more difficult than it already is b/c you have to make the game challenge keep up with those ubers. I just prefer not to have to think up new stuff to challenge those characters all the time. This doesen't mean I don't allow it, or don't "suck it up" from time to time and deal with it, I would just rather spend my DM prep time making the story more interesting than the combats.
Nomad4life 02-15-05, 11:09 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? Definitely in the 2nd group, but there may be more options than only these binary camps. 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? Played for a number of years, and still have my first and second editions. Had some BAD experiences about a decade ago (the game had become a shameful twinkmuch fest so I had to move to other systems to find RP). I’ve just returned in the last three years. 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) Name one. I’ve played it. 4- How old are you? Male or female? Waaaay older than I can believe. *sigh* I’m male, but engaged, so I’ve become part female too it would seem. 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? Telling an interactive story, playing with friends, testing the limits of imagination or horror using only low-powered campaigns. 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? GASP. CHOKE. SPUTTER. DIE. I would leave a game and kick the table down as I left if anyone at it described things like “friendship” or “romance” as unimportant role playing story elements. 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) ??? How do you have a “competition” between the players and DM? The point is to tell an interactive story, develop a character, and have a good time.
Ginyu549 02-15-05, 11:23 PM	Originally posted by Nomad4life: ??? How do you have a “competition” between the players and DM? Well, in my experience on the boards, as well as playing, some players will develop an adversarial relationship with the DM, and vice versa. Such games can be kinda fun if you take into that account when you start, as you know the DM will be trying to be sneaky and rules-lawyery, so you will be free to munchkin it up in hopes of overcomming their challenges. It's just a way of playing the game. Obviously the DM could wipe everything off the board with a wave of thier hand, but in the kind of games we're talking about here the DM is usually the uber-munchkin and as such will try to "play by the rules". I have actually seen DM's say things like "Ha! I got you!" etc... and I have seen players that are just as bad with their DM's...(sighs)
Kalanth 02-15-05, 11:49 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? I am definetly of camp 2, but not to say I don't enjoy a good number crunched charcter from time to time. Most importantly, though, if number crunching is the case, then I must still have good story behind it. 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? I go as far back as the Blue, Red, and Aqua box sets. I remember when you race was also your class. Those were good times, real simple, real, real, real simple. 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) Classic Marvel Super Heroes, Star Wars d20, Palladium, Whitewolf: Vampire, Whitewolf: Werewolf, Dragonlance 5th Age, AD&D 2nd ed, D&D 1st ed, etc. 4- How old are you? Male or female? 26 Year old male 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? For me? Character development and social interaction with other memebrs of the party. I want this to feel like I am actually in the characters shoes, and so I want the character to "be alive." 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? I have had three characters married, and seven children. I have been playing the same bloodline for most of twenty years now, but most of those end in marriage and children as plot devices for when I sit in the DM chair. 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) What is the point to playing? Thats like asking why do you read a book, or why bother watching a movie. I don't want to conquer the game, destroy all the DMs monsters, and become statsically all powerful (if I was playing everquest then it would be different). I want to immerse myself into the world and experience all there is to offer. I enjoy watching the character grow in levels and power, but also in prestige and recognition. I love when I can say, "My reputation proceeds me," and its actually true.
Nomad4life 02-15-05, 11:55 PM	I remember when you race was also your class. LOL!!! Aye, those were the days...
Molitor 02-15-05, 11:56 PM	1) Camp #2. Totally. As DM I ask my players to describe their characters when we start a campaign and many of them never mention hair color, eye color, etc. That irks me. 2) 23 years. Hell, I remember the little white boxes the game used to come in. 3) A vast ammount of games. 4) 33 years old. Male all the way baby! HAHAHA! 5)The action. The rolling of the dice when DEATH is on the line. Delivering foes to their destiny. Creating awesome adventures and story lines as a DM. The art work in most of the books. Getting together with friends. 6) Oddly I don't care for those aspects nearly as much as I would like. My DMs have never really touched on those. 7) It shouldn't be a competition. If it is that's sad. The point is to stave off insanity, at least for me.
green_yawgmoth 02-16-05, 12:32 AM	Whoah, there is no mocking going on here, and I'm not sure why I drew your ire, as I explained in an earlier post I am meerly presenting things as I have seen them in the forums. Not everyone falls cleanly into one camp or the other, but you yorself insist that there are two aspects to the game, and both are important. I am meerly asking what your game preference and experience are to compare them to others. So far it looks like EVERYONE is in camp 2 since the two possible min/maxers who bothered to post didn't answer the questions, but instead passively attacked part of the original post. And, I have never in all my browsing of the boards seen anyone say min/maxers can't roleplay. (though just because I haven't seen them doesn't mean those opinions don't exist) For the record, I like Powergaming as a player but detest it as a DM. (does that make me a hypocrite?) Reason being that it makes the DM's job even more difficult than it already is b/c you have to make the game challenge keep up with those ubers. I just prefer not to have to think up new stuff to challenge those characters all the time. This doesen't mean I don't allow it, or don't "suck it up" from time to time and deal with it, I would just rather spend my DM prep time making the story more interesting than the combats. Sorry, I read your post as "this is how people fall in D&D, you have to be one of these two." Oh, you know what makes it easy for a DM? When everyone is a powergamer. Then everyone's equal. Besides, there's nothing saying you can't make the story interesting with a powergamer in the midst; it just means you have to play smarter when it comes to combat. ;) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Attila 02-16-05, 01:50 AM	I didn't take it like that at all. I read it as two main ways to approach PC creation: 1) Start with the stats and maximize the numbers, then figure out how to roleplay the character 2) Start with a character concept in mind and then roll or buy stats to fit. With 1 the emphasis is on the numbers, with 2 the emphasis is on the character concept. Neither one totally excludes the other. To say that the DM should just play smarter tactics is missing the point. The DM should already be using smart tactics (assuming they apply) when designing the adventure. If this discussion is important to you, start a new thread and we can take it from there. We shouldn't let this derail a good thread.
The White Sorcerer 02-16-05, 05:23 AM	Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor?Neither/Both.How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier?Almost 4 years.3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count)None at the moment, but will be storytelling Mage: The Ascension soon.4- How old are you? Male or female?18 (19 in May). Male.5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most?Neat characters and their cool powers.6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids?Never.7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.)Competition? No. Point? Fun.
J Milburn 02-16-05, 10:12 AM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? Well, the way my groups play, we dont get enough time. We spend most of our time roleplaying and are getting better at it, but i am really the only experienced player in any campaign i do, so i always end up DMing. I like to develope a story, but to really keep up with anything we do have to lean towards group 1, BUT as a dm i award more exp for roleplay, so we will be totally balanced before long. Oddly, alot of my games end up going very economic, which is kind of powergaming through roleplay. 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? No. About a year, but i would count myself very experienced. (20+ books, currently 4 campaigns, alot of time on this site, VERY NEARLY my own site- under construction) 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) Ive dabbled in D20 modern, SW and some type of ADND with a real roleplay only DM 4- How old are you? Male or female? Only 14, male 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? I like to see real emotions in my players when different things happen in game Thats really what i play for, although ive been told im a great player. 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? No, our campaigns have never got far enough. 2 of my current ones are looking good though, but im DMing both. 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) Hmm, no. There is the 'trying to beat the DMs puzzle' element though.
HammerHeart81 02-16-05, 01:50 PM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? 2, more for the fact that math isn't one of my strongest subjects. 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? Getting around to 10 years, started off with 2ndED 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) WoD,Palladium,RIFTS and Shadowrun 4- How old are you? Male or female? 23 male 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? I think the social part is the best as well as escaping. 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? Every now and then we have stuff like that but not completely. Characters had girlfiends but no wives or kids. 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) No but there have been folks player and DM alike make it to be as a formof competition. I think the point of D&D is to make a character and send him through all kinds of adventures.
Aricandor 02-16-05, 02:53 PM	1 - I'd be in camp 2. Generally anyway. 2 - About a year 3 - I'm playing another roleplaying game called Eon (a swedish thing). 4 - 17, male 5 - DMing. I like being a "judge" sort of and doing the creative work. 6 - It happens. Mostly when the players feel like it. 7 - It's definitely not a competition. And it's meant to be fun, to the exclusion of all else (almost all at least).
Another Gnome 02-16-05, 04:12 PM	1- "Side? I am on nobody's side... Because... nobody... is on my side." 2- Started with 2E a few months before 3E came out. 3- Other than D&D I've played a bit of RuneQuest. 4- Not a secret, but irrelevant. 5- As a game, creating a new character is the best part. As a social event, it's beating up a tribe of kobolds, especially if it involves a lot of near-death experiences and other adrenaline-pumping situations. 6- Mushy stuff rarely comes up during play, and what happens outside the game between my female NPCs is their own business. 7- It's not the game, it's the world the characters live in.
q'afuu 02-17-05, 08:01 AM	The *design* of any non-freestyle RPG is a math exercise. The math is there to keep things balanced. If you're the kind of person who likes to check that math and see where the designers didn't do their homework well enough so you can use that to your advantage, go right ahead. Whatever floats your boat. I mostly DM, so I do the math to iron out any wrinkles I might find. As for the personal survey, I routinely ignore any such queries, on the 'net and elsewhere.
Ginyu549 02-17-05, 12:54 PM	q'afuu - This thread is not about "designing" a game, it is about how YOU play the game and what you enjoy about it. As for the personal survey, I routinely ignore any such queries, on the 'net and elsewhere. I guess this one just had too much charisma to completely ignore eh?
q'afuu 02-18-05, 06:55 AM	q'afuu - This thread is not about "designing" a game, it is about how YOU play the game and what you enjoy about it.The way a game is played and what's enjoyable about it depends for a great part on its design. Ask around: many RPGers who play several systems have preferences not merely based on flavour but also, if not more so, based on the quality of the design. I enjoy playing D&D a lot, and I enjoy it most in its current edition because IMO, it's the best mechanically by far. That said, if other systems I like better (like Legend of the 5 Rings) were played more around were I live, I might well play those exclusively. Mechanically (and consequently mathematically) L5R 1st is by far superior to d20 IMO. 1d20+mods is not a great way to adjudicate character actions. It works, but that's about as positive as I can be about it. As far as I'm concerned, this system actually encourages a minimum amount of rulesmongering: with an outcome of 1 being as likely as 10 and as likely as 20 for the die roll, check results are quite random. Random is not good, so players are pushed to find ways to reduce the randomness from actions that are vital for their characters.
steenan 02-18-05, 07:01 AM	1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? I use aspects of both. In most systems other than D&D I would answer "2", but in D&D it's not so easy, because it's heavily combat oriented (compared to, for example, Vampire or Call of Cthulhu). While I hate powergaming, I have to agree, that every player needs to put some effort in making his character "mechanicaly effective". When a PC is too weak, it's often going to cripple the party. So, while there in never "too much RP'ing", there can be both too much and too little "character optimization". And both too strong and too weak characters make it nearly impossible for DM to balance encounters (especialy, when there is a mix of "munchkins" and "hardcore roleplayers" in the gaming group), so it results in game being less fun to everyone. 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? Only about two years. I had some contact with previous editions, but that were only single adventures I played a long time ago (I think it was a 2nd ed., but I'm not sure). I have played other systems for a long time (over 9 years), but I'm still quite new to D&D. 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) World of Darkness (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage), Call of Cthulhu, Warhammer, Cyberpunk, Fading Suns, Amber, some systems thet were published only in Poland (Dzikie Pola, Kryształy Czasu) and many homebrewed ones. 4- How old are you? Male or female? 24, male. 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? I like how detailed are descriptions of the gaming worlds (especialy the FR setting). The DM can focus on creating the story itself, not having to make up every piece of it from the scratch (he can use existing towns, creatures, spells, sometimes even NPC's). As a player, I enjoy the detailed character creation process, allowing to incorporate many interesting ideas. 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? Nearly all the best games i played (or GM'ed) were so good because of the "unimportant role-playing story elements". It may be fun to slay goblins/golems/dragons/etc., but that's not what you remember for long. What really makes the game memorable are the feelings and emotions, and they come form nothing else than the role playing. I had my characters married many times, some as a part of the background and some as a result of in-game events. They had children once or twice, but I don't remember the children playing a big role in the adventure (while the wives had been important many times). 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) There cannot be a competition between GM and players in any RPG. The GM can always just kill the PC's, while the players can always ignore the plot he created - the game can be played only when the GM and the players cooperate. As for "what is the point of playing": In a more "ambitious" RPG, I would say, that a game is a kind of artistic creation (both on the side of GM and the players), awakening the emotions and leading to a katharsis (the best games I played can be perfectly described this way) - or at least it should be so. But the D&D has different "feel", different style. It's more like an adventure movie, than a theatre. It gives countless possibilities to create interesting stories, but it lacks the "emotional depth". I've played good D&D scenarios many times and liked it - but none of them was worth remembering for long. So, I choose D&D when I just want to relax and have fun.
Ginyu549 02-18-05, 06:08 PM	Originally posted by steenan I would say, that a game is a kind of artistic creation (both on the side of GM and the players), awakening the emotions and leading to a katharsis oooo - katharsis - thats a big word. (Obviously not large but full of meaning) Are you an art major? That has to be one of the best responses so far, I loved it, but perhaps it is too heady for most people here. So, for those who are unaware: Catharsis - (aesthetics) The effect of certain kinds of art esp. tragedy, and music in relieving or purging the emotions of an audience. (Psychology) discharge of pent up emotions so as to result in the alleviation of symptoms or the permenent relief of a condition. - Websters Well, D&D really does that for me too. Unfortunately my "permenent condition" cannot fully be relieved since that condition is a strong desire to role-play every waking hour I am not intimately involved with a member of the opposite sex. (speaking of the opposite sex, no female posters so far - at least not that want to say they are females - hmmm....) P.S. I'm pretty sure katharsis is an alternate spelling of the same word, NOT a misspelling.
Scipio 02-19-05, 01:53 AM	I'm not sure I really want to start this arguement, but here goes... It seems to me there are two camps around these parts. Camp 1- D&D is an exercise in mathmatics. The rules are there to be "figured out" and used for an advantage. This camp includes "Powergamers" and those who enjoy making character optimization posts. It seems to me that these people put little or no effort into roleplaying or storytelling, and in fact, many of them deride that aspect of the game as secondary to character level advancement and combo feat/ability generation. Camp 2- D&D is at its heart a roleplaying game, which means you play a character in a story. Your character is a part of that story and as such should act accordingly to what is going on in the story. Numbers and rules can get in the way of the story and should be bent or re-worked to make the story, and the characters part in it work better. After seeing these arguements breaking out all over the boards I have some questions I'd like to throw out there and see what the response is. 1- Which camp are you in? If you use aspects of both which do you favor? 2- How long have you been playing D&D? Do you remember 2nd ed or earlier? 3- What other roleplaying games have you played? (Video games don't count) 4- How old are you? Male or female? 5- What is the best part of D&D for you? What do you enjoy most? 6- How often do things like romance and friendship, or other "unimportant" role playing story elements pop up in your games? Have you ever had a character that got married or had kids? 7- Is D&D a competition between players and DM? What is the point of playing D&D? (there is no "winning" the game.) 1. I balance the two pretty effectively. Meaning that I only try to lean one way or the other if the campaign requires it. In a low combat campaign, i lean storyteller, in a hack and slash campaign I'm a powergamer. Most of the time I do both at once. 2. I've been playing since I was 10. I've run adventures in 1st edition, but only played extensively in 3E. 3. All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Buffy, Angel, Call of Cthulhu, Star Wars (West End and d20), Shadowrun, Gamma World 4. 20 male 5. I enjoy all of it. If I had to pick the best part though I'd say i enjoy writing stuff for my campaign the most. 6. Depends on my group. My Greyhawk games tend to be a bit hack and slash because those are the newest players, they get 10%. The more experienced ones, who have settled into the storyteller style get about 30%. Then there's my powergamer group. They get 0% cuz they don't like it. 7. It's not a competition between DM and players at all. Except that time my powergaming group challenged me. They learned their lesson. The point of it is to have fun.