| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Zachary The First05-12-05, 09:44 AM | D&D is not my favorite system; at the risk of flameage, I tend to be a fan of more rules-heavy and less cinematic systems. That being said, I still play it. Why? Not because of any particular love for 3.0 or 3.5, but because D&D is the Common-speak of gamers. Chances are, whether you're a Rolemaster fiend or a Fate neophyte, you have at least a nodding aquaintance with D&D's rules, or at least the basic premise. So, when my friends and I manage to get together--some of us from a GURPS background, others from a Palladium stronghold, others Indie adherents, our gaming schedule will more likely than not inlcue D&D, because it is common, neutral ground. And the funny thing is, except for our prerequisite Salavatore fanboy and drow overkiller, I don't it's the preferred system for any one of us. Sadly, however, it is much harder for me to find players for my Burning Wheel or HARP games, because these things take introduction time some players are unwilling to commit to. Although I love the common bonds D&D provides, I also hate the fact that its central location in the gaming world pushes other great games into the corner sometimes. With the recent glut of substandard 160-page dreck, though, I think a few of my friends are coming around. Sure, we'll always have our core rulebooks, but insteasd of dropping $34 on Lords of Madness, why not try an entirely new system (Such as the Burning Wheel) for $25? Or 2-3 Green Ronin Books for the same price? Or Tri-Stat or Fate for free? Does anyone else feel like this? That D&D might not be the best, but it is the most common or convenient? Before you flame me, please, bear in mind, I don't hate D&D--I am simply briniging up the possibility that perhaps some of us have narrowed in on one particular system so much we might be missing some great work that's out there. |
| Archangel05-12-05, 09:54 AM | It surely is not the best. But it has that balance between roleplaying and rules that make really good. I also like to try new things and so have recently bought S&S's Arcana Evolved. |
| Xill-Lord Psionic Might05-12-05, 09:59 AM | D&D created it all, with out tolkien, 80's cheap fanatasy movies, and D&D rolepaying as we know it wouldnt exist. Personally i love D&D and the D20 system, alhough i must admit besides D20 ive only every played white wolf. But still loyality frimlly remains in the hands of wizards. |
| Zachary The First05-12-05, 09:59 AM | On a side note, Arcana Evolved rocks. |
| PrinceAzar05-12-05, 10:13 AM | It's the best roleplaying system for me :) I am simply briniging up the possibility that perhaps some of us have narrowed in on one particular system so much we might be missing some great work that's out there. This is disgusting, someone with such a flagrant lack of faith trying to dissuade the hearts of gamers set on their system. :thumbsdow |
| Draco Strang05-12-05, 10:19 AM | I seem to feel a certain sick sense of satisfaction shelling over my hard-earned bucks to WOTC for a few hundred more pages of D&D info. Poor me, eh? It actually is my favorite system, believe it or not. Star Wars d20 looks really cool. I've got a number of the books but never got a chance to freakin' play. It's crappy. GURPS really bores me. I've done Alternity, Tunnels and Trolls, Boot Hill, and any number of flash in the pan systems. I've got a dozen or so rulesets that I've found/bought/traded for that just plain suck, or no one wants to play with me. Anyone know anything about that new Wild West-type RPG coming soon? Or Starship Troopers? |
| Zachary The First05-12-05, 10:22 AM | Uh, disgusting? To offer a pretty non-virulent opinion and politely bring up a topic? Yeah, I can see how I'm a real jerk. |
| Zachary The First05-12-05, 10:24 AM | Anyone know anything about that new Wild West-type RPG coming soon? Or Starship Troopers? Nah, I know about Serenity (futuristic sorta-west) and I've been playing Dogs In the Vineyard, but that's about it. |
| PrinceAzar05-12-05, 10:25 AM | :clap: Spoken like a fan Yeah you, Zachary, this is a D&D board, and you think by making a tear-jerker topic to plead to some other sense of sympathy the people here might harbor, to turn them away from the game they love and enjoy-talk about here each day, in both mechanics and roleplaying ascpects? Now you tell me who's arrogant :confused: I mean look at the Technology vs Magic thread, the Dragon vs Airplanes thread and others like them, spurned by the love of the d20 system in general, both humor and camraderie, bitter resentment and being insulted were born of them, a real argument. And let's not forget the myriad of settings (Ravenloft,Darksun, Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Eberron) that the players here also have in common :) |
| Thanatos0205-12-05, 10:27 AM | I'm pretty sure he was kidding. Personally, I'll play anything with a good plot, but since I'm a huge Planescape and Ravenloft fan, I play d20 a lot. |
| Zachary The First05-12-05, 10:32 AM | :clap: Spoken like a fan Yeah you, Zachary, this is a D&D board, and you think by making a tear-jerker topic to plead to some other sense of sympathy the people here might harbor, to turn them away from the game they love and enjoy-talk about here each day, in both mechanics and roleplaying ascpects? Now you tell me who's arrogant :confused: Uh? Arrogant? Where are you getting this from? Are you in the right thread? Reread the initial topic, and I think you'll find I'm hardly crying or attempting to offend. I'm sorry if you feel like it's an attack in some way. It's a polite, rational, set of questions. In any case, if I didn't like at least some aspects of D&D and its community, I wouldn't be here. It hardly means I have to be a yes-man. Arcana Evolved still rocks. |
| PrinceAzar05-12-05, 10:34 AM | It seems like you're trying to mask it, much like a racist who goes "I'm not racist, BUT... I'm not outright angry at you, but you see where i'm going with this :eek: |
| Zachary The First05-12-05, 10:37 AM | Wow. That is so non-sequitur I'm not sure where to start. I'm certainly not meaning anything from what I outright said in my first post. If you'd like to discuss with me D&D's place as a common ground for gamers, or discuss the commonality of the game, I'd be more than happy to do so. Otherwise, I'm not quite sure what you want. Bringing up the merits of another system isn't an insult, btw. |
| PrinceAzar05-12-05, 10:39 AM | No, but what i'm saying is conversion, or the active attempt usually is unless the person wants to try the new system, and is not coerced or forced to in any fashion. :) |
| Zachary The First05-12-05, 10:45 AM | Will this disclaimer help? In No Way Does The Poster of This Thread Wish To Condone, Empower, or Assist Any And All Unwanted RPG System Conversion. Look, on these boards, people carp about D&D all the time, and their posts reflect a far mroe belligerent or abusive nature than mine. Now that I have assured you I don't wish for anyone to play or be exposed to other game against their will, can we please resume this thread on its intended course? Thanks, and I'm sorry again if you misconstrued my purpose. :) |
| Draco Strang05-12-05, 10:46 AM | It seems like you're trying to mask it, much like a racist who goes "I'm not racist, BUT... I'm not outright angry at you, but you see where i'm going with this :eek: Zachary, Don't get too upset. He tries to pull this crap on AIM as well. Azar, That has to be some of the most blatant baiting I have ever seen on these boards. |
| Zachary The First05-12-05, 10:50 AM | No problem... I should add that I love the many common experiences of D&D, if not the system per se--I think we've all shared them, and I think the reason is partially because of its central location as common ground for gamers. I wanted to see if anyone else echoed my sentiments on the first post. |
| PrinceAzar05-12-05, 10:52 AM | Have you ever played Rifts? As for myself i prior had experience with Vampire: The Requiem and Rifts. Vampire was too dark in most aspects for me, but it did have some nice roleplaying elements in the modern day sense. Rifts, while allowing great character flexibility, was too high technology for me...also a little overpowered (Glitterboy anyone? :rolleyes: ). My first game, i remember, i was a Temporal Mage/Gunslinger, and i was running from a loud rumbling, my character scooted up a tree...somehow shot at this giant below, and killed it in 2 hits(with a short tumble between it's legs) Basically, i stuck with D&D because i like fantasy, while the flexbility of good, evil and all aspects inbetween. |
| StormKnight05-12-05, 10:53 AM | D&D is not my favorite system either; nor is it one I have usually played with other gamers (usually if I'm gaming my group they don't really know much of any systems, so any game system is as good as another - since D&D is on the high end of difficulty to teach, that knocks it right out). I think it fills a certain niche extremely well. Its got highly tactical combat, its fun to build and improve a character with the many class and feat options, and it scales well from extremely low to extremely high power (most games only handle one part of the power spectrum well), making it possible to really improve a character's abilities over a long term game. To me, different gaming systems are like different foods. I might prefer Mexican food, but if I've got a craving for pizza, a taco won't make me happy! (Dang...now I'm hungry :) ) |
| PrinceAzar05-12-05, 10:54 AM | Funny, Draco, coming from one who wanted to shake me through his ethernet cable, and kept spinning stories of where forfeiting one's honor would be preferrable to living with shame, you speak as if you have actual character to back those words up. :) And let's not forget "President Bush is on the line" Really now, if you're going to go through the trouble of listing an important fact about someone, why not yourself as well? ;) |
| TheBard05-12-05, 11:00 AM | Nah, I know about Serenity (futuristic sorta-west) Another Browncoat! Shiny! |
| babysamurai05-12-05, 11:19 AM | No problem... I should add that I love the many common experiences of D&D, if not the system per se--I think we've all shared them, and I think the reason is partially because of its central location as common ground for gamers. I wanted to see if anyone else echoed my sentiments on the first post. I happen to think D&D 3.5 is the best, but I dont mind what other people think. Dont let all these over sensitive gamers bring you down (you know what thier like). |
| striderII05-12-05, 11:20 AM | I would have to say that this is a reasonable thread, that is not in any way, shape, or form (barring PrinceAzar's baiting and general stick-up-his-petard-ness) inflammatory. That being said, yes, I think that D&D is a common ground for many gamers. I know that, in discussions I've had or seen on other boards, that many people have started with D&D at one point or another. Most people are at least passingly familiar with the core D&D concepts and such. This actually includes non-gamers. I recently told a new acquaintance that I was a gamer, and his response was "do you play an elf or something?". While that might not be restricted solely to D&D, I think it's a fair assumption to say that he's been at least familiar with the overtones of D&D. Now, the D20 system isn't my favorite system at all. I prefer a much more rules-light, roleplaying-favored system (White Wolf's Storyteller or the new Storytelling systems, to be specific). However, I've played many other systems (Palladium, WEG, BattleTech, and Marvel Super Heroes' old Universal Table to name a few), and I think the point of the original post was to see where D&D fit within the larger community (and, possibly, as a caveat to not get "stuck in a rut" in one gaming system and get burnt out...not as a method of conversion, but rather as a helpful warning of sorts). If I'm wrong on that, please let me know. strider |
| Zachary The First05-12-05, 11:28 AM | Strider, Not wrong at all. Thanks for the input :) And as for being a browncoat, you're goram right. :D |
| striderII05-12-05, 11:42 AM | Strider, Not wrong at all. Thanks for the input :) And as for being a browncoat, you're goram right. :D No worries. Even though we like different styles of gaming systems, we can at least agree on some things in a civil manner. Perhaps others could learn from this. (And, yes, I know that, in general, I have had my occasions of being less than civil. Everybody's a little bit hypocritical.) strider |
| PrinceAzar05-12-05, 11:51 AM | Heathens! :mad: |
| Draco Strang05-12-05, 12:07 PM | Funny, Draco, coming from one who wanted to shake me through his ethernet cable, and kept spinning stories of where forfeiting one's honor would be preferrable to living with shame, you speak as if you have actual character to back those words up. :) And let's not forget "President Bush is on the line" Really now, if you're going to go through the trouble of listing an important fact about someone, why not yourself as well? ;) I relayed our little convo to several posters on this board who show civility and have a fair amount of brains to reason with. Every one of them sided with me. But that's beside the point. This is the internet, and we can gainsay all we want. It's obvious I have no character, because I didn't think every common German citizen was evil for working a war job during WWII. Sorry. I guess surviving and enduring is evil too. Again, an obvious black mark against what little character, honor, reason, and sense of moral and ethical rights I still retain. My bad. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go steal money from orphans, drown kittens, and jaywalk. G'day. I would have to say that this is a reasonable thread, that is not in any way, shape, or form (barring PrinceAzar's baiting and general stick-up-his-petard-ness) inflammatory. Bravo. |
| Yoho1.505-12-05, 12:12 PM | I've played alot of different games, to many to list and have always come back to D&D, why because it is the best at what it does, its the comfort food of the table top game world. I've merped and gurped and travellered and superheroed and Battle Meched till I was paranoid; some systems were better at this or that, but D&D is the best all rounder and that is why its common ground. I've played D&D for 25+ years and each campaign was fun and different, I can't say that about Steve Jacksons CarWars, which I loved and would play tomorrow given the chance. Maybe I start a D&D/CarWars Campaign, see thats the beauty of D&D, its more adaptable than other games, most other games are a rule set built on a setting/campaign world, unless your talking tunnels and trolls of course then your talking about a cheap knock off. D&Ds ability to be different setting friendly made it common ground. Go play the other games, if you can find enough players, and you will find a better horrorgame, or wargame, or whatever but that won't take D&Ds place as the duc-tape of the RPG universe, and that's not a bad thing. |
| rogueattorney05-12-05, 12:24 PM | Anyone know anything about that new Wild West-type RPG coming soon? Kenzer & Co., who do the Kalamar setting and the Hackmaster game, are developing their Aces & Eights western game. It's supposed to be out soonish. R.A. |
| Draco Strang05-12-05, 12:48 PM | Come now Draco, either you edited the conversation, are asking friends to back you up on this, or have others who share your skewed view. I find it awfully hard to believe one that was so jovial and light-hearted as yourself could so quickly turn this to sarcastic anger just to save face. Why can't you admit you like to side with dishonesty, no matter what the cost? Did i not say the smart thing to do was not to side with them in the first place? But oh, of course it's convenient for you to leave that bit out. Please, trying to make yourself appear to be correct in such an arrogant fashion isn't anthing new, we've seen it on these boards before! ;) At least try to make it more unique next time :) Oh Gosh, PrinceAzar is making a fool out of me by pointing out every last one of my foibles and character flaws. Yea, I edited the conversation we had online so I would appear more knowledgeable to people I've never met. And indeed, I only shared it with other like-minded cheats, liars, traitors, and cockroaches as you so kindly called me in our conversation. My kind has to stick together, eh? I always side with dishonesty, so long as I come out ahead. :rolleye2: It's good to know you can perform such indepth profiles about people from behind your keyboard. You seem to have me pegged pretty well. Please....tell me you saved our conversation? If you did, I'd be more than happy to let you post it in it's full, unedited complete version (save for all those pictures you uploaded afterward) just so people could see how dishonest and skewed I am. Gosh, I hope you saved it. Tell me you saved it? |
| PrinceAzar05-12-05, 12:53 PM | I don't save AIM conversations at all, never have. As for your sarcastic wit, why mention things that add absolutely nothing against me? Pictures? Ones you liked and laughed at I might add, oh yes...you surely showed great disdain for those! :rolleyes: Oh and for the record, i never directly called you a cockroach, nice try ;) If you want to fight, no problem with me Draco, you can put up your facade of innocent sincerity all you like, it's bound to come down sooner or later. |
| Draco Strang05-12-05, 12:57 PM | I don't save AIM conversations at all. As for your sarcastic wit, why mention things that add absolutely nothing against me? Pictures? Ones you liked and laughed at I might add, oh yes...you surely showed great disdain for those! :rolleyes: Oh and for the record, i never directly called you a cockroach, nice try ;) If you want to fight, no problem with me Draco, you can put up your facade of innocent sincerity all you like, it's bound to come down sooner or later. I never said they weren't funny. I did enjoy the majority of them. They merely took up so much damn space that it'd be impossible to put the convo anywhere on these boards if they were still in. Thats why I said "save (meaning except for) those pictures you uploaded afterward." Way to find slights where there are none to be found. Keep it up, everyone's bound to see through me once you're done flaming me into oblivion. Now, if you'll excuse me, there are plenty of other productive things for me to do, like combing my hair, or counting floor tiles. |
| Cog05-12-05, 01:39 PM | Guys.... maybe you should chill a little before the WizO's come along and hand out some warnings? |
| Draco Strang05-12-05, 01:42 PM | Guys.... maybe you should chill a little before the WizO's come along and hand out some warnings? Damn. The skeletal manifestation of wisdom speaks again. I withdraw from this thread. It's just not worth it this point. Thx for the reality check Cog. |
| PrinceAzar05-12-05, 01:43 PM | Nice edit to save face ;) |
| Scarlet Knight05-12-05, 01:45 PM | My opinion is mostly opposite that of the origional poster. To me the system really doesn't matter at all. The system is just the rules. Who cares which rules you use to play fantasy roleplaying games? I already know the rules for the current edition of D&D, which are very good, and D&D also happens to be by far the most popular roleplaying game. I don't see why I would ever want to waste my time learning other systems, especially since many of those other systems are just fantasy roleplaying games with different rules. The type of dice rolls just don't make fantasy roleplaying games any more enjoyable to me. Learning a system well requires an investment of time and money, and I'm not going to go through all that effort again without a good reason. As long as D&D allows me to happily play the type of fantasy roleplaying games that I enjoy, I'll never switch to anything else. |
| Sulaco05-12-05, 02:42 PM | Does anyone else feel like this? That D&D might not be the best, but it is the most common or convenient? Before you flame me, please, bear in mind, I don't hate D&D--I am simply briniging up the possibility that perhaps some of us have narrowed in on one particular system so much we might be missing some great work that's out there. "Best game" is like saying "most evolved". This implies that there is a final point which all games are striving to achieve. This is not the case. Just as there is no "most evolved" so to there is no "best" game. Both can only be defined as "most fitting to its niche". Even you concede that D&D is "the most common or convenient" so, to anyone for whom "the most common or convenient" is their primary motivator in choosing a game system then D&D is, for that person, by far the "best" system. I have known many people who have plyed D&D and then migrated away from it, and I have yet to know one who didn't migrate back. While my mates and I have played literlly dozens upon dozens of systems - from D&D to GURPS to Palladium to WFRP to games most people have never even heard of like Morrow Project and the rather uninspiringly-named Fantasy Role Playing, and even a dozen or more systems of our own creation - most of them have fallen by the wayside and we still end up playing D&D. There is a reason that some board games - like Risk and Monopoly - have survived for decades while many hundreds - if not thousands - of others having been and gone. D&D is the Monopoly of RPGs. Just as Monopoly does not accurately model real estate transactions, neither does D&D accurately model combat (or pretty much anything else) but both are simple, engrossing and, most importantly, fun. |
| The Shaman05-12-05, 03:05 PM | ...Boot Hill...Both 2e and 3e BH have more in common with d20 games that 1e or 2e AD&D in terms of mechanics. BH was consistently ahead of its time. As far as new Wild West games, I'd be surprised if anything can supplant Sidewinder: Recoiled as best in the genre. As far as D&D goes, I'm a fan of the d20 mechanic - I think d20 Modern is one of the best RPGs ever, but I'm not as big on 3e D&D for some reason. Because I don't want to go back to 1e AD&D, I'm looking hard at Castles and Crusades instead for my next fantasy game - Conan RPG is another option. I would not consider a system that focuses on simulation like GURPS - I'm comfortable with the abstractions of D&D. I'm playing a game, and as soon as the mechanics get in the way of playing, then the system isn't one that I will use. I'm not interested in 'realistic' weapon damage or skill point- instead of class-based characters - my experience over twenty-*ahem* years of gaming is that these systems are too cumbersome to capture the fast-moving feel of the games I want to play and too detailed to allow for the real-life responsibilities that constrain time I can spend on my hobbies. |
| cvazi05-12-05, 03:23 PM | . . .and I have tried many others. The beauty of the current 3.5 DnD is the flexibilty of the system. If you perfer a more "rules-lite" system (a la Whitewolf)- rely more on description and cinematic. Conversely you can run the entire campaign with you battlegrid out and carefully measure out death and destruction. Want to mix in some technology? Grab a d20 modern or d20 future book. Complaining about munchkin powergamers using every splat availible (me<=guilty of this), don't allow those options (me<=also does this). You want to run a horror campaign? Use better descriptions. There is a DM posting his campaign on the Eberron forums who's descriptions send chills up my back. You don't need to "will save" to make your players afraid. The 3.5 DnD is pretty much an open architecture system. You can build anything you want into it. You like the the story line from another system? Implement it into DnD. DM laziness and poor players are not a reason to blame the system. |
| Scarlet Knight05-12-05, 03:30 PM | "Best game" is like saying "most evolved". This implies that there is a final point which all games are striving to achieve. Not really. Claiming that one game is the best simply means that it is superior to the existing alternatives. |
| The WarOverlord05-12-05, 03:34 PM | While D&D wasn't the first Role Playing Game, it is the one most Associated with the Sword and Magic Role Playing Games and any Game involving Magic and Sword Fighting is Considered "D&D" to the Naive/uninformed when it comes in the news that someone was murdered or a fight broke out, or someone commited suicide and a roleplaying game was involved somehow. |
| Sulaco05-12-05, 03:45 PM | Not really. Claiming that one game is the best simply means that it is superior to the existing alternatives. There is no objective measure of "superior" so the comparison is meaningless. What may be viewed as superior to some is just as likely to be viewed as grossly inferior by others. All that matters is whether it fulfils your wants, needs, or likes. To return to my evolution example, what animal is the superior one? A shark? A crocodile? A paramecium? The answer is...none of them. None of them is inately superior to any of the others, but all are perfectly evolved to thier particular niche. Drop a crodile in the deep ocean and he's buggered, but likewise drop a shark on land and he too is buggered. All that matters is how well each fits in to their niche. |
| Head_PC 105-12-05, 03:48 PM | Come now Draco, either you edited the conversation, are asking friends to back you up on this, or have others who share your skewed view. I find it awfully hard to believe one that was so jovial and light-hearted as yourself could so quickly turn this to sarcastic anger just to save face. Why can't you admit you like to side with dishonesty, no matter what the cost? Did i not say the smart thing to do was not to side with them in the first place? But oh, of course it's convenient for you to leave that bit out. Please, trying to make yourself appear to be correct in such an arrogant fashion isn't anthing new, we've seen it on these boards before! ;) At least try to make it more unique next time :) Remember what the thread is about, post on the topic, or move on. Besides, your wrong. |
| Stardrake05-12-05, 05:03 PM | Zachary The First--You have a good point there. D&D, for better or for worse, is the lingua franca of roleplaying. At least now, with 3.x, D&D has a system that is worth playing, IMHO. (A note--I played Original D&D until the early 80's, then went to Traveller and RuneQuest and didn't come back until 3.0--3.0 finally fixed the silly rigidities of the older systems) But I wouldn't use D&D for much of anything but high-magic fantasy. In general, I find level-based systems clunky. Other folks' mileage may well vary (and indeed does!) but that's my position. (And I've played most major non-TSR systems except Palladium and White Wolf. I found Palladium mostly an over-complicated knockoff of AD&D (and Siembieda's attitude most annoying). White Wolf may well be a good system, but the whole World Of Darkness turned me off--I just don't think that way.) |
| striderII05-12-05, 09:00 PM | Heathens! I prefer the term "pagan" or "Wiccan", thank you. Bravo. Thank you, Draco. I have known many people who have plyed D&D and then migrated away from it, and I have yet to know one who didn't migrate back. By "migrate back", does this person in question have to return to play D&D regularly, or does even the occasional dusting-off of the map grid, et al, count? I rarely play D&D anymore...I just don't find that it has the staying power for me at this point. I far prefer other systems (well, one in particular, really), but will still on occasion get some people together for a few sessions every once in a while. So, basically, for nostalgia's sake - does that count? White Wolf may well be a good system, but the whole World Of Darkness turned me off--I just don't think that way.) It's certainly a setting all to itself - the system, on the other hand, is extremely simple. Well, okay, the new system is, anyway - at least, it's easier than the system for the old World of Darkness. One die roll (although it is likely more than one die) is all you need for a great many tasks, although there are such things as Extended tasks that may require multiple rolls (just like making multiple Climb checks, for instance). No rolling once for attack, once for damage or anything like that. The longest part is figuring your dice pool, and that doesn't take long when you get some experience under your belt. strider |
| Count Arioch the 28th05-12-05, 09:12 PM | I've heard that a lot of people are made that WoD doesn't let you be anything cool, which is what white wolf is famous for, without buying more supplements. (As in, you can't be a vampire, or a werewolf, or a demon, or a mage without buying a $40 book in addition to the core rules. If you just play core, you can be a pasty goth kid and that's it.) I've actually made up entire games for my friends and to play. Granted, they all kind of sucked, but they were my games. |
| devinmdp05-12-05, 09:36 PM | Sulaco: The original poster was asking for subjective opinions (he even used the word "feel" when asking for our reply), so why bother pointing the obvious fact that "superior" is subjective to all of us? We know that. Thanks. Original Poster: I happen to prefer Runequest to D&D. If the system had not died an inglorious death I might still be playing it. But you are correct in that D&D is the lingua franca of the FRPG world. I chose it because I knew it, unlike RQ, would be supported with products and have a ready supply of players from which to draw. Devin |
| striderII05-12-05, 09:45 PM | I've heard that a lot of people are made that WoD doesn't let you be anything cool, which is what white wolf is famous for, without buying more supplements. (As in, you can't be a vampire, or a werewolf, or a demon, or a mage without buying a $40 book in addition to the core rules. If you just play core, you can be a pasty goth kid and that's it.) I've actually made up entire games for my friends and to play. Granted, they all kind of sucked, but they were my games. You're partially correct. The core WoD book has creation rules for mortals - although, they are not by any means restricted to "pasty goth kids". The other books detail the supernatural types with a great deal of detail (and, let me tell you, there is so much information you *need* extra books). Think of it as the core WoD book as, say, the PHB, and the other books something along the lines of the Forgotten Realms book...just detailing a portion of the core section. strider |
| Zachary The First05-12-05, 11:28 PM | If you just play core, you can be a pasty goth kid and that's it.) lol...I can understand where a LOT of WW adherents might find that a bit redundant. |
| Draco Strang05-12-05, 11:31 PM | I've heard that a lot of people are made that WoD doesn't let you be anything cool, which is what white wolf is famous for, without buying more supplements. (As in, you can't be a vampire, or a werewolf, or a demon, or a mage without buying a $40 book in addition to the core rules. If you just play core, you can be a pasty goth kid and that's it.) Actually, I think the mortal version of the game is pretty friggin' cool. You don't have uber powers to rely on. It's all you, baby. |
| PrinceAzar05-12-05, 11:34 PM | There is no objective measure of "superior" so the comparison is meaningless. What may be viewed as superior to some is just as likely to be viewed as grossly inferior by others. All that matters is whether it fulfils your wants, needs, or likes. To return to my evolution example, what animal is the superior one? A shark? A crocodile? A paramecium? The answer is...none of them. None of them is inately superior to any of the others, but all are perfectly evolved to thier particular niche. Drop a crodile in the deep ocean and he's buggered, but likewise drop a shark on land and he too is buggered. All that matters is how well each fits in to their niche. You cruel, cruel man :( |
| weasel fierce05-13-05, 02:07 AM | The people I game with are easy. If someone is willing to run a game, then that is what is being played. Most of them dont care about the rules really. Right now, I am narrowing down a bit on the mass of stuff, I am interested in running. Classic D&D, AD&D 1st edition and FATE. Throw in Hunter the Reckoning and some Werewolf and Im about happy. That being said, I dont understand the system nazi's who adamantly refuse to play any other game than their chosen one. D&D and WW fans are equally retarded about this. Im sure someone can explain whats wrong with having some fun. |
| Count Arioch the 28th05-13-05, 08:20 AM | I will give any game system a try that doesn't largely involve grievous bodily injury. Whether I like it or not is up to me, but I will at least take a test-drive before deciding. |
| striderII05-13-05, 09:33 AM | Actually, I think the mortal version of the game is pretty friggin' cool. You don't have uber powers to rely on. It's all you, baby. Yeah, no kidding. As freakin' beautiful as Requiem was when I pulled it out of the box when it arrived on my doorstep, I read WoD first...and had to repeatedly pick my jaw up off the ground. It's just so clean of a system, and such an awesome setting...much better done than the oWoD, at least in feel for me. strider |
| Thanatos0205-13-05, 09:39 AM | I must admit, system fascists do indeed give me pause. I was never really able to understand what creates the zealous devotion to a gaming system. Sure, I've got my preferances, but when push comes to shove, a good DM is what really matters. Equally confusing, and occasionally irritating are the "one true way" gamers. I've heard everything, for example, from statements saying that using Profession and Craft rolls in D&D ruin the game to gamers that say that if you make a character with his stats in mind, you're actually a min-maxer and powergamer. Usually, these are all cheap and tawdry insults designed to make them feel better about themselves, and convince themselves that they're right. What it boils down to, though is enjoyment. They're all games. Play 'em, have fun. :D |
| striderII05-13-05, 09:57 AM | I must admit, system fascists do indeed give me pause. I was never really able to understand what creates the zealous devotion to a gaming system. Sure, I've got my preferances, but when push comes to shove, a good DM is what really matters. Equally confusing, and occasionally irritating are the "one true way" gamers. I've heard everything, for example, from statements saying that using Profession and Craft rolls in D&D ruin the game to gamers that say that if you make a character with his stats in mind, you're actually a min-maxer and powergamer. Usually, these are all cheap and tawdry insults designed to make them feel better about themselves, and convince themselves that they're right. What it boils down to, though is enjoyment. They're all games. Play 'em, have fun. :D I would say that while everyone is encouraged to play the game however they like, I find the "stats first, everything else secondary *if that*" approach distasteful, and prefer not to play with those with that style. strider |
| Draco Strang05-13-05, 10:23 AM | Yeah, no kidding. As freakin' beautiful as Requiem was when I pulled it out of the box when it arrived on my doorstep, I read WoD first...and had to repeatedly pick my jaw up off the ground. It's just so clean of a system, and such an awesome setting...much better done than the oWoD, at least in feel for me. strider A guy in my group used be heavy into old Mage: Ascension and the old Werewolf stuff. He says the newer system is a lot more elegant than the old one. Even though I've yet to see the old one, I agree. It's pretty darn slick as far as story-based RPG systems go. I say "story-telling" because it calls for a lot more ajudication on the Storyteller's part versus the tons of crunch we have for D&D. Not that crunch is a bad thing. Less interpretation usually leads to less people *****ing about it "not being fair." |
| Gilean05-13-05, 10:58 AM | Is there core WoD? I have read through many of the "creature" books (vampire, mage, changeling) and found complete games. Am I missing something? On topic: D&D isn't that good a game. It is good inspiration, though. And, unfortunately, there are too many players who can and will only play D&D. I could learn a new game system with little trouble, and have learned many. And made many. |
| Draco Strang05-13-05, 12:26 PM | Is there core WoD? I have read through many of the "creature" books (vampire, mage, changeling) and found complete games. Am I missing something? Yea, there's a core book. It's called "World of Darkness." That simple. It goes over how to play mortals, and all the stuff you need to. Then it sorta fleshes out the place of mortals in the world, and how they're overmatched. Pretty neat stuff. You still need the book if you wanna do Werewolf or Vampire games. Or any of the other offshoots, for that matter. |
| MissCalculation05-13-05, 04:51 PM | I must admit, I pefer systems like Call of Cthullhu or WoD over D&D. It depends on the main focus of your gaming style. If you prefer combat and tactics, D&D is the right choice. Of course, you can "play your character" while you are crawling through dungeons, but if you look at the supplements, you'll see that the emphasis of D&D is placed on combat. Buf if you think, long dice-orgies are annoying, WoD is really good. Attack, Defence + Damage in just one roll. Really nice. In the supplements, social backgrounds, cities, organisation, NSCs with roleplaying hints for the GM etc. are described. Truely.. a matter of taste ;) |
| striderII05-13-05, 08:36 PM | A guy in my group used be heavy into old Mage: Ascension and the old Werewolf stuff. He says the newer system is a lot more elegant than the old one. Even though I've yet to see the old one, I agree. It's pretty darn slick as far as story-based RPG systems go. I say "story-telling" because it calls for a lot more ajudication on the Storyteller's part versus the tons of crunch we have for D&D. Not that crunch is a bad thing. Less interpretation usually leads to less people *****ing about it "not being fair." It requires a lot more trust between the ST and the players. On the other hand, that's an excellent thing to have in *any* game system, in my opinion. But yes, the new Werewolf is much more streamlined, elegant, and completely compatable with the other supernatural splats. The old system just didn't have that. Is there core WoD? I have read through many of the "creature" books (vampire, mage, changeling) and found complete games. Am I missing something? On one hand, no, on the other, quite a lot. On the "no" side: the games you're looking at are (my guess): Vampire: the Masquerade, Mage: the Ascension, and Changeling: the Dreaming. These are part of the *old* World of Darkness, which largely came to an end last spring, when they ran the Year of Judgement, in which they ended all of their game lines (with the exception of Exalted, and other non-WoD titles). What you have missed is the new World of Darkness, which does indeed have a core book (World of Darkness), that details mortal character creation (which *all* supernatural creatures start out to be at one point or another). Each of the other games (Vampire: the Requiem and Werewolf: the Forsaken are out, while Mage: the Awakening will be out at Gen Con) build off of this book, and have *tons* of detail about the appropriate supernatural critter. We are talking about the new system (aka the Storytelling System), which is much more elegant than its predecessor, the Storyteller System. Although, I must admit, when you look at the Storyteller System, then Exalted (Storyteller 2.0), then the Storytelling system, it's like you're watching the evolution...it's uncanny. strider |
| sooperspook05-13-05, 09:38 PM | Uhm. just wondering, isnt it against the CoC to be so heavily promoting other game systems on these boards? i mean , these are the D&D boards after all... Unless i read the past few posts wrong, which has been known to happen. :) |
| striderII05-13-05, 10:39 PM | Uhm. just wondering, isnt it against the CoC to be so heavily promoting other game systems on these boards? i mean , these are the D&D boards after all... Unless i read the past few posts wrong, which has been known to happen. :) I'm not promoting the system, I'm answering a question for someone who's confused. If WOTC is challenged by discussion of another system (in a thread *about* other systems, for that matter), then that's not my problem. If I were going around saying "D&D sucks, play game X instead", I might see where they would have a problem. As I'm not, I don't think anyone is going to really have an issue, unless they are more concerned about it than should be normal. strider |
| Darkmeer05-13-05, 11:49 PM | Okay, I think I'm validated in my opinion thus far: D20 (and thus D&D) can handle any game that you have played. Try it, it's fun. Sure, someone can pick up a random supplement from a 3rd party for cheaper. Some of it is top notch, some of it is absolute crap. WoTC makes the only "official" D&D material, and it is of a mostly consistent quality (FR and Eberron tend to be the highest quality). Sure Ravenloft was farmed out, so was Spelljammer, Dark Sun, and even Dragonlance, they did it because the fans wanted it and it was too risky for them to try themselves (I assume). What makes D&D special is exactly what you've said. It's a common ground for roleplaying gamers. Sure some of us, like myself, play D&D and love it (and tweak and tweak...). Some of us would prefer a different game. We play games for fun, and if we're having fun in an unfamiliar system, GREAT. If we're having fun playing D&D, GREAT. That's about all I can add. :twocents: <--Okay, so it's about $5.00 worth, but I only have :twocents: |
| weasel fierce05-14-05, 01:44 AM | Okay, I think I'm validated in my opinion thus far: D20 (and thus D&D) can handle any game that you have played. If you refer to D20 as the idea of "roll a D20 and add some stuff" then yeah. If you refer to it as the class, level, feat package, then no, it can do some things well, and will be inferior at other things. |
| Zachary The First05-14-05, 02:10 AM | I'm not promoting the system, I'm answering a question for someone who's confused. If WOTC is challenged by discussion of another system (in a thread *about* other systems, for that matter), then that's not my problem. If I were going around saying "D&D sucks, play game X instead", I might see where they would have a problem. As I'm not, I don't think anyone is going to really have an issue, unless they are more concerned about it than should be normal. strider Absolutely. The original intent of the thread was to discuss D&D's spot as a common ground, an Esperanto for gamers, and if other games were shunted out of the spotlight because of this. I don't think to mention that you play another game is a problem--after all, no one here is saying they don't play D&D or verbally abusing the product line... :) |
| Sarella Starshine05-14-05, 02:30 AM | i only play D&D, not because i am an elitist snob as some people would try to paint me as, but because it is the system i feel most comfortable playing in. I have tried other systems (namely GURPS and a superhero system that i participated in only one session with). also, me and my husband also tend to be completists (we will buy everything of a certian product if we like it) and we decided early on in our gaming careers together that we will only support one gaming system. Since we both have history in D&D, it was rather easy to guess which system we would support. Not to say that the other systems are 'inferior' or 'less' than D&D, but since we both already had exposure to D&D (my husband has nearly every OD&D-2nd AD&D product published), and did not feel like 'shopping' arround for a game system that we both had to learn, then find people that played, it was the choice for us to make. Will we change systems and try another system? Maybe, maybe not. My husband's new job pays more than his old one, so we can aford to support a new system if we wanted to, but we both like D&D, and we don't see ourselves getting tired of it. |
| ronyon05-18-05, 01:35 PM | In skipped to the end , so as to miss out on the rest of the flame war, hope I didndt miss any thing cool. To me, D&D is like american cars vs. imports. At first, anything else seemed foolish. Later the compitition started making them look bad. Finally,they wised up , and revamped their whole product, adopting many of the the best aspects of the compitition(skills anyone?) and reafirming thier core mission. I play D20 'cause it works. It gets the job done. The new edition only confirmed their comitment to constantly improving it. Every time they remove some thing from the system, they show a commitment to balance that is essential to me. I love point based sytems like Gurps and Hero(Owned both since the first editions of each,until the third edition of each)but they require to much work to play, and are to easy to abuse. Plus they have stopped evolving, stopped balancing them selves.D20 hasnt, it stilll is growing and pruning itself as it goes Feats are brilliant, classes are, useful, and the damn thing just works. Cant really play a gritty realistic game, ala Gurps, 'cause of the hit point mechanic. Cant make anything yah can think of, like in Hero. But yah can be a heroic character, and that can be enogh. My friends are messing with the latest world of darkness rulesset.Not me.I'm tired of tinkering. I just want to play. If its a heroic fantasy game, its D20 for me. Till they stop fixing it when it breaks... |