Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SandanFire 03-04-07, 02:33 PM	......it should be considered a form of media in and of it's own right, I believe. Case in point: The Book of Vile Darkness. Everybody was up in arms regarding this book from parents complaining that "D&D is becoming what was feared back in the 80's and 90's. This is a step in the wrong direction," to "It's about time D&D grew up and became an adult game." Well the way I look at it is this; I'm a parent of a teenager and would I want him playing a campaign that utilized the Book of Vile Darkness, or Book of Erotic Fantasy? No, but then again I don't want him playing Grand Theft Auto on the PS2, or watching soft-core adult entertainment on Showtime. As a result two conclusions came to mind. One; D&D has evolved, and like TV and video games it's up to us parents to control the material employed by our children playing the game. Two; with the advent of the open gaming license by WotC, D&D can be adjusted, modified, and played in any numerous ways, from violent, gory, lust-filled campaigns to happy, family-safe, moral and instructing adventures. With that in mind I believe that D&D has evolved beyond the constraints of simple "game" and should be considered more of a form of media, of entertainment in and of it's own right. It's far too malleable and customizable to be given such a limitation as "game". Thoughts? Two; with the advent of the open gaming license by WotC, D&D can be adjusted, modified, and played in any numerous ways, from violent, gory, lust-filled campaigns to happy, family-safe, moral and instructing adventures. With that in mind I believe that D&D has evolved beyond the constraints of simple "game" and should be considered more of a form of media, of entertainment in and of it's own right. It's far too mallable and customizable to be given such a limitation as "game". Thoughts?
Damior 03-04-07, 03:14 PM	The people complaining about BoVD leading to evil children are the same loons from the 80's. And BoEF isnt an official source. People who object to BoVD content should note the Mature Audience disclaimer, and realize that the book was designed for DMs to create evil enemies for PCs to fight, not for the PCs to use themselves. As for calling it a game, It is still technically a game, but on the more customizable side of the spectrum, akin to games made up on the spot bychildren on the playground, only more complex and structured(and expensive but thats another thing entirely)
Kursk 03-04-07, 03:14 PM	Two; with the advent of the open gaming license by WotC, D&D can be adjusted, modified, and played in any numerous ways, from violent, gory, lust-filled campaigns to happy, family-safe, moral and instructing adventures. OGL has nothing to do with this. It's ALWAYS been adjustable. It has to do with the players as it's a FRPG. Hell, you ever heard of strip poker?
DarkNick 03-04-07, 03:17 PM	I don't really get your point. How is it not a game? Here are some definitions of 'game' from the oxford dictionary: "A diversion of the nature of a contest, played according to rules, and displaying in the result the superiority either in skill, strength, or good fortune of the winner or winners." "An amusement, diversion, pastime." "Amusement, delight, fun, mirth, sport. Often in game and glee, game and play, joy and game; also game and solace. upon her game: in fun. no game = ‘no fun’. Obs. exc. dial. " I think your own definition of what a 'game' is is a bit limited. A game does not have to be static. A game can be modified. A game does not need to be simple. Games are not just for chilldren. Even without the open gaming license you could always adjust Dnd to suit how you want to play from violent, gory, lust-filled campaigns to happy, family-safe, moral and instructing adventures. This has not changed at all. Perhaps what you are really saying is not so much that Dnd is not a game, but more that it should be approached with more caution than say a game of chess when your own chilldren are concerned. I would still allow my teenage chilldren to use the Book of Vile Darkness, or Book of Erotic Fantasy if they wanted. They know it is a game, they are not going to suddenly become devil worshipers. They know how to treat people with respect when it comes to sex. At that age I don't think there is much fear that they will use the Book of Erotic Fantasy in their games with their mates anyway, more likely they will get off on it in secret. But then this is my own personal choice as a parent. I choose not to censor these things. You're welcome to your own. Does not stop Dnd from being a game.
a_psh 03-04-07, 03:24 PM	"Truth or Dare" could be a silly eight-year-old gross-out contest, a form of teen social exploration, or a BDSM game. That doesn't make it a medium. I see what you're trying to say, SandanFire, but I think it's more appropriate to call D&D a "framework" for games rather than a "medium." Calling it an entire medium kinda works on the level of games-as-culture, but really doesn't work on the level of games-as-rules or games-as-play. Saying that it's a framework for games works on all three levels. Calling D&D a medium per se is also not very nice to all the other RPGs out there, many of which aren't just derivatives of D&D. ;) To use the TV metaphor, D&D isn't a TV show, but it isn't everything on TV put together -- it's something in between, like a channel.
a_psh 03-04-07, 03:31 PM	Here are some definitions of 'game' from the oxford dictionaryThis is where design texts are strongly preferable to dictionaries. I'll offer this, because it's handy and online, despite the fact that I don't really agree with it: I Have No Words & I Must Design (http://www.costik.com/nowords.html) by Greg Costikyan (Paranoia, Toon, WEG Star Wars).
RadicalTaoist 03-04-07, 06:04 PM	What's the idea of game and medium being mutually exclusive somehow? What the hell are video games supposed to be then? :confused:
Barron 03-04-07, 06:09 PM	I think the point being made is that Dungeon's and Dragons isn't a medium, whereas the Pen and Paper Role Playing Game might be.
ZeronHitaro 03-04-07, 06:45 PM	D&D in a sense isn't a game. I prefer to define it as a group of people getting together to write a novel only taking some very unorthadox yet systematical ways of determining how the script is written.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-04-07, 09:09 PM	*Yawn*
SandanFire 03-04-07, 09:12 PM	OGL has nothing to do with this. It's ALWAYS been adjustable. It has to do with the players as it's a FRPG. Hell, you ever heard of strip poker? The OGL has EVERYTHING to do with this. Until Wizards came opened up D&D to essentially everyone then role playing in general was too scattered, too diverse. If you had an idea for a campaign? You couldn't produce it, print it, sell it. You had to come up with an entirely proprietary system, then churn out your idea. Evidence? Go to your local gaming store and check out all the items with D20 listed in the corner. You wouldn't have seen this 12 years ago. You would have seen a smattering of different, "home grown" systems with no continuity. Wizards has definitely improved the market and consolidated ideas, thus leading to customization on a scale rarely seen before in the role playing genre.
Kursk 03-04-07, 09:33 PM	The OGL has EVERYTHING to do with this. Until Wizards came opened up D&D to essentially everyone then role playing in general was too scattered, too diverse. If you had an idea for a campaign? You couldn't produce it, print it, sell it. You had to come up with an entirely proprietary system, then churn out your idea. Evidence? Go to your local gaming store and check out all the items with D20 listed in the corner. You wouldn't have seen this 12 years ago. You would have seen a smattering of different, "home grown" systems with no continuity. Wizards has definitely improved the market and consolidated ideas, thus leading to customization on a scale rarely seen before in the role playing genre. No. What you saw 25 years ago was much more published adventures... And people still made their own worlds. Most in fact did. I think I've probably been around D&D a bit longer than you and OGL hasn't changed the game.
SandanFire 03-04-07, 10:05 PM	No. What you saw 25 years ago was much more published adventures... And people still made their own worlds. Most in fact did. I think I've probably been around D&D a bit longer than you and OGL hasn't changed the game. I seriously doubt age has anything to do with my point, which you are clearing not comprehending. I've been around well long enough to see the media go through three levels of evolution and nothing had the same impact as the OGL. Things became organized and consolidated and the mistakes of too many published adventures made by TSR was corrected. TSR did make a lot more worlds but they were weak, the material was without substance, and TSR trusted too much on the books for plotlines, praying that people would buy and read the books then play the "worlds" they were coming up with. The box sets (awesome as they admittedly were) were money-suckers that TSR went under trying to produce. And thanks to creative ownership which TSR held onto, nobody could produce their own realms or create their own campaigns. If you were looking at creating a campaign, even a simple adventure and producing it? You were looking at a lawsuit pending for infringement of creative property. Wizards corrected all that with the OGL. Now you have people producing all manner of material for what? D&D, not their own weakened role play systems. Wizards can focus on core material and leave the fringe campaign realms and adventures to other publishing houses that want to generate it. Within the limits of the OGL the "game" has exploded, and you now have material like the Sword and Sorcery campaign material, the Book of Erotic Fantasy, even books devoted exclusively devoted to themes such as Egyptology or steam-punk-based adventures. None of this would have been seen on the shelves "before" clearly showing that D&D has severely evolved beyond a mere game, and the OGL was one of the core reasons. I apologize if you disagree, but this is the truth in it.
a_psh 03-04-07, 10:37 PM	The OGL has EVERYTHING to do with this. Until Wizards came opened up D&D to essentially everyone then role playing in general was too scattered, too diverse. If you had an idea for a campaign? You couldn't produce it, print it, sell it. You had to come up with an entirely proprietary system, then churn out your idea.Meh. No matter how off-the-wall or out-there an add-on is, it's still just D&D. You can't escape the assumptions built into the system. The only exception, perhaps, are the full-on alternative d20 systems, but they're either cheap knock-offs or just labeled "d20" so they can try to get a bit more money. As good as the OGL is for the industry (i.e. people make a little money off of it and Wotc makes a little money off of the added value of their products), it does nothing for actual game design: the people writing OGL content are, fundamentally, completely disconnected from the actual act of designing games. These were the same people who were making up stupid D&D rip-offs 20 years ago, just to sell you some content they came up with. Yeah, it's great that they don't have to kludge together a half-assed game just to sell you their world idea anymore, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if everything they've ever made just completely dropped off the face of the Earth tomorrow. Because, fundamentally, none of those people are actually producing new games.
ArcTan 03-04-07, 10:41 PM	Two; with the advent of the open gaming license by WotC, D&D can be adjusted, modified, and played in any numerous ways, from violent, gory, lust-filled campaigns to happy, family-safe, moral and instructing adventures. With that in mind I believe that D&D has evolved beyond the constraints of simple "game" and should be considered more of a form of media, of entertainment in and of it's own right. It's far too mallable and customizable to be given such a limitation as "game". I don't think the world "game" necessarily has the limited definition you're pinning on it, though I do see what you're saying.
OleOneEye 03-05-07, 12:10 AM	It is true that a campaign based solely on the three core rulebooks bears little resemblance to the current one my group is planning that splices DnD with Star Wars. However, it is also true that an NFL sanctioned football game bears little resemblance to the pick up backyard football games I play. Football rules are essentially OGL for anyone who wishes to tinker around with the rules, and it doesn't stop football from being a game.
runestar 03-05-07, 12:25 AM	BOVD was tame as hell. I have no idea why such a big fuss was created, save as an elaborate marketing gimmick by wotc. Any kid who has played video games with a shred of violence inside will definitely find BOVD lacklustre by comparison. I know I was. I expected to find the more mature themes more covered in depth. And what do I get? They simply glossed over them, and then went straight into the wotc tried-and-tested formula of flooding us with yet more feats, magic items, prcs and spells.:mad: I can safely tell you that I wouldn't have raised an eyelid even if I were only 12 years old when reading said book. BOEF wasn't that bad either. My mom was like "You like the book? Buy! Buy!". :P