Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WhiteOnix 08-09-05, 07:45 PM	The speed in D&D is completely broken for humans and animals alike. In D&D, the average running speed for a human is 14m/h. It should be more around 20m/h. In D&D, the cheetah can run 23m/h....in real life the cheetah can run at around 70m/h for an hour long... this is only some examples of the speed inaccuracy in D&D.
Count Arioch the 28th 08-09-05, 07:52 PM	No, the average human running speed is not 20 mph, on account that the world's record is aroun 22 mph. And the cheetah cannot sustain that speed for more than a few seconds. Hence the ability that lest them sprint for short periods of time, just like in real life. You are demanding a level of realism that: 1. Only exists inside your head anyway and doesn't reflect real life at all. 2. Isn't asked for, wanted, nor worthwhile.
BeyondFated 08-09-05, 07:53 PM	And? What do you purpose we do about it? Also, it should be noted that the game designers weren’t exactly to concerned about whether a rule made sense in the real world or not. They were more concerned about playability.
Ringmereth 08-09-05, 10:21 PM	Okay. Why don't you go for a nice 20 mph run and then get back to us? Not that many peope can touch that speed, let alone sustain it while carrying a few dozen pounds of awkward stuff, dodging projectiles, and generally concentrating on other things. Also, it's quite easy to make a powerbuild that completely shatters all world speed records, using monk, barbarian, Boots of Springing and Striding, Expeditious Retreat, ect.
Tuah Shinguru 08-09-05, 11:03 PM	The speed and such was designed to be easy, after all, people wouldn't be hitting each other from 5 feet away with swords! :P 5 is an easy number to use.
BeyondFated 08-09-05, 11:31 PM	Also, until you intiative rolls around, your stuck inside a 5x5 cube. So in a world where cubes of force naturally traping you for 6 second periods is normal, I think the run speeds are dead on.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-09-05, 11:47 PM	And the cheetah cannot sustain that speed for more than a few seconds. Hence the ability that lest them sprint for short periods of time, just like in real life. And cheetahs can't reach that speed anyways. Controlled tests show a maximum speed of slightly less than 60 mph.
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon 08-09-05, 11:55 PM	D&D is not meant to be realistic. Do orcs run around killing people? How many of your neighbors have been munched by Illithids? Did ninjas turn invisible? Do skinny pointy eared people bend the laws of reality with magic and almost never miss when using bows? No!
anarco_rata 08-10-05, 12:24 AM	really, i think this post is just about a guys that complains for the sake of complaining
weasel fierce 08-10-05, 12:55 AM	Rules are nothing but vague guidelines as to how you could possibly play the game. Change it to fit what you want
Tevish Szat 08-10-05, 01:00 AM	Also, it's quite easy to make a powerbuild that completely shatters all world speed records, using monk, barbarian, Boots of Springing and Striding, Expeditious Retreat, ect. With a straight monk, no ne of those boots, and a DM crazy enoguh to allow the Epic Speed feat to be taken multiple times stacking (i thought it could be when i worked htis all out!) a monk can go supersonic at level 45, and FTL at a little under level 26 million.
was_fired 08-10-05, 01:08 AM	All of that said it is fairly accurate as is. In D&D without the run feat a human's walking speed is 3.4mph which is fairly accurate, their jogging speed is 6.8mph and their running speed is 13.6mph all of these are fairly accurate and can be proven if you would care to get on a tredmill for a bit. With the run feat a normal human can go at 17mph which is very fast, and the fastest 1st level humans (a barbarian 1 with the run feat) can run at 22.7mph which as pointed out before is close to the world record (a quick search put it at around 22.6mph but it might be faster).
Tevish Szat 08-10-05, 01:11 AM	also, regardign run speeds. Let's take joe. joe is an average human commoner. joe's base speed is 30'. he runs at 120'. that comes to (Times 600 rounds per hour, divided by 5280 feet per mile) 13.63 mph. Now, lets say joe takes the Run feat which any runner worth his salt shoudl have, allowign him to run at x5 rather than x4. realize here, joe is still a level 1 commoner, the epitomy of common he now runs at 150'. that comes to 17 mph. Joe is a prety good runner. not The Best, but good Joe's friend Bob is a barbarian, meaning he has a base speed of 40'. Bob runs (normally) at a speed of 160', or about 18mph. Bob then takes the run feat. he runs at 200', or a whopping 22.7 miles per hour. Bob the runnign barbarian beats the best runners on earth (though not by much), and he's just a low level NPC barbarian. Bob's adventurer sister, Jill, has become a 20th level monk. Bob is very proud of her. she has a base speed of 90' and the run feat, meaning she runs at 450'. 51 miles per hour. and she can keep up that kind of speed. Jill can run down Cheetas and jog to work faster than she coudl drive on surface streets here on earth. much faster, in fact. and that's with none of them using any magic. EDIT: Dang, beat me to it.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-10-05, 02:11 AM	You think the movement rules are bad? Try calculating how long it takes to craft a quarterstaff. To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps. 1. Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp). 2. Find the DC from the table below. 3. Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials. 4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces. Quarterstaves are free. 0 gp and 0 sp. Check the equipment chapter. So no matter what you roll as long as it beats the DC for a simple weapon, crafting a quarterstaff takes literally no time (as any number divided by 0 is infinity). It shouldn't even be an action. You could walk up to a tree with your tools and it instantly clatters to the ground in a pile of quarterstaves and clubs. How's that for realism?
Flushmaster 08-10-05, 04:53 AM	Keep in mind that as a cheetah hits its maximum speed (between 60 and 70 mph), it doesn't merely get tired but lactic acid builds up in its muscles due to its oxygen intake being insufficient to keep up with its motions and its muscles begin to quite literally shut down. If you've ever worked out, you should be familiar with the term "feel the burn" as relating to the pain in ones muscles when they're being overexerted; this is exactly what happens with the cheetah's legs at a full sprint. Yeah, it slows down and remains standing, but most of the time if it were to simply "push itself" for another few seconds it would cramp up and crash into the ground face first, likely resulting in a broken neck from an impact roughly equivalent to a person being thrown through the windshield of a car at highway speeds. In D&D, some lucky dice rolling and a good constitution score can allow one to keep running for a very long time, at full sprint. In real life, your body will shut down before that. Even olympic sprinters are seriously winded after moving at a full sprint (just over 20 mph) for less than ten seconds (less than 2 rounds). In D&D a first level barbarian with the Run feat, as Tevish Szat already illustrated, would be able to not only win that race, but also could keep up the same pace for much longer (particularly if they rage for a con boost when they eventually begin to falter) while reality's best athletes are having difficulty breathing.
Gilean 08-10-05, 05:27 AM	(as any number divided by 0 is infinity)Not exactly. It is either + infinity or - infinity. But, in this case, you are correct. Cutting wood still takes time.
Lord Ian Stark 08-10-05, 05:33 AM	You are demanding a level of realism that: 1. Only exists inside your head anyway and doesn't reflect real life at all. 2. Isn't asked for, wanted, nor worthwhile. :rofl: Ah man that's too funny. I agree, with D&D having many things that make you go "huh," I think this is the first time I have seen speed be the problem.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 08-10-05, 07:06 AM	Not exactly. It is either + infinity or - infinity. But, in this case, you are correct. Cutting wood still takes time. Still not exactly right...let me show you a little mathematical paradox... Where x is any number... x/0 = +/- infinity 0/x = 0 x/x = 1 Therefore, if x=0, 0/0 = infinity, 0 or 1. So, if you roll a 0 on your craft check (for example, if you have a low intelligence to give a negative modifier), that quarterstaff might take a week to make :)
Solaris 08-10-05, 07:18 AM	Division by zero in the real numbers is undefined. It's not infinity or anything else. The paradoxes only exist when you try to define it.
The_Ditto 08-10-05, 09:21 AM	How many of your neighbors have been munched by Illithids? I lost *sniff* my uncle to *sniff* an Illithid ... *sniff* ... :weep: (oh wait ... that wasn't my uncle ... :thinks: )
Callista 08-10-05, 09:55 AM	Division by zero in the real numbers is undefined. It's not infinity or anything else. The paradoxes only exist when you try to define it.Ah, the joys of math-geekdom. Hehe. I'm a physics major. I'm allowed to make fun. :)
=-Nonsensical-= 08-10-05, 10:08 AM	The speeds in D&D aren't the same as real life speeds? :confused: So you mean, like, D&D isn't real-life? :eek:
Lord Gwydion 08-10-05, 10:34 AM	The speed in D&D is completely broken for humans and animals alike. In D&D, the average running speed for a human is 14m/h. It should be more around 20m/h. In D&D, the cheetah can run 23m/h....in real life the cheetah can run at around 70m/h for an hour long... this is only some examples of the speed inaccuracy in D&D. Well, now that the Math majors have had their way with your post, it's time for us English majors to have a go. You obviously misinterpret the term "broken" as it applies to the Dungeons and Dragons game. In the parlance of the game, "broken" implies a combination of rules (often feats, abilities, spells, or magic items) that cause the system to break down and be, for all intents and purposes, unplayable. Bag of Rats is probably the most famous example of a "broken" combo, as it removes all the challenge from facing tough opponents. "Broken" does not mean unrealistic, it means unplayable or unfair. The game plays just fine with speeds the way they are, realistic or not. Please refrain from using the term "broken" for matters in which the game plays fine as is, but you personally don't like the rule in question. Edit: Just remembered a broken combo revolving around movement--the free action to pass an object to an adjacent character rule technically allows a miles long line of commoners to "pass" the PC, one to another, over the entire line within one 6 second round. [The DM's ability to limit the number of free actions that can be taken in a round and common sense being the counters to this.] Attempting to use this maneuver is unfair and hence broken. Having everything assigned a base speed in multiples of 5' is not.
High Octane 08-10-05, 11:02 AM	Quarterstaves are free. 0 gp and 0 sp. Check the equipment chapter. So no matter what you roll as long as it beats the DC for a simple weapon, crafting a quarterstaff takes literally no time (as any number divided by 0 is infinity). It shouldn't even be an action. You could walk up to a tree with your tools and it instantly clatters to the ground in a pile of quarterstaves and clubs. How's that for realism? Its picking up a friggin STICK.
IceFractal 08-10-05, 02:14 PM	Ah yes, the old "peasant-powered linear accelerator". Personally, it's my favorite way to attack a fortified tower or city. Just have a couple craftsment standing near some trees and turning out quarterstaffs instantly, and then your line of peasants moves those quarterstaffs faster than the speed of sound, resulting in supersonic quarterstaff-missiles blasting down your enemies' walls. ;)
Rny2 08-10-05, 03:17 PM	interesting
Giant Turtle 08-10-05, 03:20 PM	Dude... first, you need to look stuff up before you say stuff. You were, as previously mentioned, way off on those two examples. Second, that is the DUMBEST complaint I have ever heard! That is just plain pointless! I just read about a frog equipped with a vorpal letter opener and I feel that this is worse! And although I have no ability to enforce this, I request you never, ever post again! I will probably get in trouble for saying this, maybe even banned, and I have been on here a decent amount of time, but I really think you are the dumbest person to ever post here. No go. Leave forever.
Rny2 08-10-05, 06:41 PM	why?
The Vagrant 08-10-05, 07:31 PM	Dude... first, you need to look stuff up before you say stuff. You were, as previously mentioned, way off on those two examples. Second, that is the DUMBEST complaint I have ever heard! That is just plain pointless! I just read about a frog equipped with a vorpal letter opener and I feel that this is worse! And although I have no ability to enforce this, I request you never, ever post again! I will probably get in trouble for saying this, maybe even banned, and I have been on here a decent amount of time, but I really think you are the dumbest person to ever post here. No go. Leave forever. Giant Turtle, I'm not going to tell you why to sound cool, just shut up. (.. now I'll probably get banned, but it's worth it.) I've always liked the speed system. Though 5 foot steps confuse me still, so I don't really know what I'm talking about, now do I?
anarco_rata 08-10-05, 08:24 PM	Its picking up a friggin STICK. :heehee exactly ^^ thats why you really don't need a craft check to make a staff. That's why you don'tbuy a staff. Staffs are not man-made products. Pick up a branch. You got yourself a staff, now, swing it and you should do 1d6 of damage. Pretty cool, huh? staffs: double weapons for poor people! pick yours now 4 free
Tyler Do'Urden 08-11-05, 12:03 AM	Its picking up a friggin STICK. :heehee exactly ^^ thats why you really don't need a craft check to make a staff. That's why you don'tbuy a staff. Staffs are not man-made products. Pick up a branch. You got yourself a staff, now, swing it and you should do 1d6 of damage. Pretty cool, huh? staffs: double weapons for poor people! pick yours now 4 free Most quarterstaves are a bit more refined than that. But I'll concede that "crafting" a quarterstaff or club is a standard action that involves bending down, grabbing the raw materials, and standing up again. But that still doesn't account for slings. And calling it undefined instead of infinity is just semantics since neither of these words mean anything we encounter in real life. Besides, if the crafting time is "undefined", how long does it take? No time? Infinite time? Does the universe grind to a halt, reset to right before you tried to make a staff, and you find yourself compelled to forget about it and save up for a sword? I think making these items free is just lazy. Even firewood has a nonzero price.
Shima 08-11-05, 12:12 AM	I cant beleive I actually read that thread...
TheNatealator 08-11-05, 12:27 AM	Ah yes, the old "peasant-powered linear accelerator". Personally, it's my favorite way to attack a fortified tower or city. Just have a couple craftsment standing near some trees and turning out quarterstaffs instantly, and then your line of peasants moves those quarterstaffs faster than the speed of sound, resulting in supersonic quarterstaff-missiles blasting down your enemies' walls. ;) I laughed (quietly, due to sleeping family nearby) for about a minute. Therefore: SIGGED!
Solaris 08-11-05, 12:48 AM	And calling it undefined instead of infinity is just semantics since neither of these words mean anything we encounter in real life. It's not just semantics. It's mathematics. And the distinction is valid. Divison by zero in the real numbers (numbers like zero, 1, -3/2, 0.8675309, pi, and so on) is undefined. This means that mathematicians have not assigned any value, or any way of finding a value, to expressions of the form x/0, where x is a real number. Infinities, on the other hand, are defined and can be worked with mathematically. They are not, however, real numbers. Even if we were to add non-finite values to the set of real numbers, we wouldn't want to assign such a quantity to x/0 any more than we'd want to assign any other particular number to it -- doing so introduces inconsistencies to the system. In short, the question "What is x/0?" has no answer if you're talking about real numbers, and having no answer at all is a very different thing from having a definite answer like "infinity". This is a distinction between fundamentally different concepts, not a quibble over semantics (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=semantics).
Schmendrick 08-11-05, 04:17 AM	I've always liked the speed system. Though 5 foot steps confuse me still, so I don't really know what I'm talking about, now do I? Because combat is easier when confined to a grid, and somebody decided that an average human uses up about a 5 ft. square of space when moving engaging in all the feints, dodges, and strikes that make up combat. Watch a typical action movie that contains a fight where the combatants don't move around the "battlefield" very much, and draw an imaginary rectangle around the floor where they are fighting; it's roughly 5 ft. by 10 ft.
Thorak 08-11-05, 07:58 AM	Like others have said, the craft system regarding quarterstaves isn't off. The crafting time is measured in weeks and days. It takes a few minutes to look through the woods and find a relatively straight branch you can cut down and use as a quarterstaff. It's not no time, but it's much less than the weeks and days the crafting system is designed to use.
jasper 08-11-05, 08:34 AM	The speed in D&D is completely broken for humans and animals alike. In D&D, the average running speed for a human is 14m/h. It should be more around 20m/h. In D&D, the cheetah can run 23m/h....in real life the cheetah can run at around 70m/h for an hour long... this is only some examples of the speed inaccuracy in D&D. Repeat after me. "D&D is a GAME. A Game is not real life. Dragons, elves , dwarves and other things do not exist in real life. I will accept game rules even when I know the rules do not reflect real life." chant this for the next day.
Solaris 08-11-05, 08:39 AM	Repeat after me. "D&D is a GAME. A Game is not real life. Dragons, elves , dwarves and other things do not exist in real life. I will accept game rules even when I know the rules do not reflect real life." chant this for the next day. Repeat after me. "Different people seek different levels of realism in their fantasy roleplaying games. I will accept the fact that other people will change the rules to suit themselves, even when I might not agree." Chant this for the next day.
anarco_rata 08-11-05, 09:02 AM	Repeat after me. "Different people seek different levels of realism in their fantasy roleplaying games. I will accept the fact that other people will change the rules to suit themselves, even when I might not agree." Chant this for the next day. repeat after me: "arguing over the internet leads to notihng and is moronic" chant this for the next few minutes and then take a break
BeyondFated 08-11-05, 09:11 AM	repeat after me: "arguing over the internet leads to notihng and is moronic" chant this for the next few minutes and then take a break Repeat after me: "Yu-moh-guie-guie-fie-di-chow", chant this to cast ancient chinese magic!
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-11-05, 10:58 AM	Be happy about your D&D speeds. You guys get six 5-foot squares. Us Star Wars RPGers only get 5 2-meter cubes. :weep:
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-11-05, 11:10 AM	Be happy about your D&D speeds. You guys get six 5-foot squares. Us Star Wars RPGers only get 5 2-meter cubes. :weep: Which is more. 10 meters is about 33 feet.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-11-05, 11:21 AM	But... But... You still get more squares! :weep: :D
Nomad4life 08-11-05, 12:51 PM	Repeat after me: "Yu-moh-guie-guie-fie-di-chow", chant this to cast ancient chinese magic! Wow! It really works!
Arishem 08-11-05, 01:14 PM	The speed in D&D is completely broken for humans and animals alike. In D&D, the average running speed for a human is 14m/h. It should be more around 20m/h. In D&D, the cheetah can run 23m/h....in real life the cheetah can run at around 70m/h for an hour long... this is only some examples of the speed inaccuracy in D&D. I would like to quote as my resonse. D&D and RL are apples and oranges. "The reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which can fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously. For fun, excitement, and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed. As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe, or even as a reflection of medieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the latter must search elsewhere. Those who desire to create and populate imaginary worlds with larger-than-life heroes and villains, who seek relaxation with a fascinating game, and who generally believe games should be fun, not work, will hopefully find this system to their taste." - Gary Gygax, 1st edition DMG, p. 9.