Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rutabaga 04-29-07, 11:09 PM	Hello, I am currently preparing for an upcoming homebrew campaign. However, in this campaign I was faced with an obstacle that I haven't had in my others since I plan on this one spanning many nations over a great expanse of land. My problem is that I do not want my players to spend a week or two traveling to get to another nation. So I just recently came up with the idea today of having a new subway system in place that would take people vast distances and fast. My idea currently is an underground subway system powered by....shocker lizards. Yes, shocker lizards. Not only can they keep zapping forever, they are relatively easy to handle and not much of a threat to the average worker. I just do not know how to make sense in a logical way how these subways would operate. I'm aware that I'm playing a game where dragons breathe fire, but I'd like to make it as "real" as possible. I was thinking of maybe it acting as a monorail, but I really don't know how those operate either, ha. So if anyone out there could contribute ideas on how the electricity from the shocker lizards could either power an engine or create a system like that used in a monorail, I'd really appreciate it. Peace
navar100 04-29-07, 11:12 PM	Do you know of or have considered Eberron Campaign setting? You don't need to use that game world specifically or flavor text, but it offers ideas on using magic as technology, including a train system.
Rutabaga 04-29-07, 11:20 PM	Oh, no I haven't read that book. I meant to mention that I'm trying to keep it relatively low magic to where the only supernatural thing powering it is the shocker lizards. But thank you for that recommendation, I'll check out Eberron when I get the chance.
IrishRover 04-29-07, 11:32 PM	A subway is quite impractical in a low magic campaign, due to digging tunnels. However, here's one option for you--perhaps a relic of a bygone age, that's quite similar. There are the usual trappings of a subway--a set of enclosed cars on rails. They don't go through tunnels, but through gates that can only open for an instant. The idea of the cars is that you can get them moving fast enough to get through the gate in the moment it's open. No electrictiy needed, there's several ways without magic to get the cars moving plenty fast. Of course, this would have lots of effects on the whole society. Control of the system, and even control of access to the system at individual stations, would be critical. Common adventures would likely need patrons to access it.
Pandaemoni 04-29-07, 11:54 PM	Why have trains at all? If you want trains for their flavor, that's fair enough. If you simply want fast travel you could have fixed "gateways" (like permanent teleportation circles) that lead to specific areas of the world, or even tamed giant birds that could transport small parties long distances for a fee. Trains and tracks require a lot of maintenance to keep them operating...and even then they sometimes jump off the tracks and crash.
Auburn 04-30-07, 12:35 AM	Here's what (I think) happens on a subway. Car is continuously connected to electricity to give a voltage and thus current. The current passes into a motor's stator windings. The electrical current generates a rotating magnetic field which pulls your rotor around. This gives you mechanical energy which allows the train to move. For this I'd probably abandon the idea of a third rail. We do it in real life since a generator or battery would be huge, and a generator that would work underground isn't exactly good to run in enclosed areas with people around. Just have a generator of a bunch of shocker lizards on board to provide your electricity. Now you're basically just running your classic Steam Engine train only it uses electricity from shocker lizards instead of steam for power. The mechanics for the two would even work pretty much the same once you get to the mechanical energy part as far as actual motion goes. This would be like a lot of the first electrical machines except for the shocker lizards of course. A monorail (again I think) is probably more along the lines of correct operation as far as you're wanting. You have basically 6 sets of electromagnets. 3 on the train and 3 on the track. Again I think this is how it is. You turn four of these on by suplying electricity. This gives you two magnet pairs of the top of track/top of part of train sitting on track and the bottom of the track/bottom of train sitting on the track. These pairs are all polarized so that each member of the pair is either North or South so they repel each other. Now your train is floating while its bottom sort of surrounds the track. To get movement you turn on your final magent pair which is the side of track/inside side of the part of the train around the track. You run electricity through the track in a manner so that the section of track under and behind the train is repelling it while the part immediately in front of the train is attacting it thus pulling it down the track while the train and track don't touch. For this you'd want lizards all along under the track, and then you'd need some way to turn them on and off with precision. On a side note a Master DM competition from a few months back provided two great ideas for using a bullette for underground travel.
IceFractal 04-30-07, 01:15 AM	An alternate solution: Undead. At the simplest level, a skeleton horse can run all day and night without getting worn out, for a rate of 600 miles/day. Not too shabby, and if you have several pulling a cart, you can transport cargo too. For a faster, but rather ridiculous solution, you turn to the way actions work. Get a line of several hundred Ogre skeletons (or constructs, but skeletons are cheaper), and have them all ready to pass anything they're handed to the next ogre in line. Result: Travel the entire length of the line in 6 seconds. Ok, that's rather cheesy. But the basic principle is workable - a conveyer belt/bucket brigade type system, to move anything within the weight limit very rapidly. And it could process passengers continuously, instead of having to wait for the next carriage/airship/whatever.
OravennasBrother 04-30-07, 10:52 AM	Make an enchantment which turns wheels, but only to make objects move (no mechanized factories, just horseless carts) then have a very complete road system. The Romans could get messsages across their Empire in days using courier relays. IF the characters have access to a cart which tirelessly moves 20MPH every hour, then they can cover 480 miles in a day- a 2000 mile journey then takes just over 4 days.
RobbyPants 04-30-07, 11:11 AM	So I just recently came up with the idea today of having a new subway system in place that would take people vast distances and fast. My idea currently is an underground subway system powered by....shocker lizards. Yes, shocker lizards. Not only can they keep zapping forever, they are relatively easy to handle and not much of a threat to the average worker. I have no problem with the subway idea, or even that you're using magic to run it (it's actually a neat idea). The one probem I do have is that electricity doesn't make the subway move. Electricity powers electric motors with make the subway move, thus you'd need (what I consider) an unrealistic amount of technology to run the subway this way. Consider something like a steam engine (a generally more simple system) that is run by a contained fire elemental. Same general principle, but more "believable".
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-30-07, 11:15 AM	My problem is that I do not want my players to spend a week or two traveling to get to another nation. Why? It takes no more time to say "you travel for 2 weeks by horse and reach Cityopolis uneventfully" then it does to say "You travel for 2 days by subway and reach cityopolis uneventfully."
IrishRover 04-30-07, 11:35 AM	If you have any sort of mass transportation system, the various stations and their environs will tend to become large cities. They will be logical trading points, transfer stations for travellers, centers for the exchane of ideas, places critters and people on the run go to shake off pursuit, diplomats meet...in short, a place that is chock full of adventure. The extent of this will depend on how many stations there are, how expensive it is to use them, and how much the local tyrants, er lawful rulers and merchants, restrict access. The practicality of the opperators of the syetem removing or adding a station to the routes will drasticly effect the poer these people wield. And the resiliance of the system will tell you if it will last, or be destroyed by someone who finds its existance inconvienent. It could end up broken into seperate systems as connections between different kingdoms are broken. Look at how, in the real world, good port locations always became big cities.
Luis_Dragunov 04-30-07, 12:32 PM	I know it must be almost a sin to utter such words in these hallowed forum halls but... have you played final fantasy IX? There's a part where you from one continent to another underground and, stupid tiring puzzles and (random encounters)^NI aside, they had this thing with long stretches of rail-like roots on the ceiling that giant bugs followed, upside down, with a little carriage-like box dangling from their backs. Also, other less-magical means of transport... 1) Waterways. There are lots of water underground, including whole basins and rivers that run hundreds of feet beneath our, well, feet. Why not make it so that, in your world, ample rivers cross the underground and go to key, central points in neighbouring kingdoms? It's not so much as a coincidence but purely logical that capitals and centers of comerce would develop at the ends of such treks. The downside? Rivers only flow one way. 2) Instead of waterways, why not natural tunnels? Much easier if not as fast. Maybe a lesser version of the underdark, with natural vulcanic tunnels, now cool and unused, running underneath your feet? 3) Gnome railway! Them crafty bastards invented a steam subway! Darn it! :)
Rutabaga 04-30-07, 01:46 PM	Thanks for all the replies. Out of all the ideas suggested I still like the idea of a subway type system that uses a type of steam engine but instead of steam it is powered by electricity (shocker lizards). Thank you RobbyPants for clarifying how a modern subway worked, I had no idea honestly, ha. At first I was thinking of having a system that connected all the nations, but on second thought I'm just going to have one that covers four relatively close ones. I do like your idea though, IrishRover, and may eventually have the company try to expand its infrastructure for more viable trade routes (which could generate interesting plot hooks itself), but for right now I'm just going to treat it as a relatively new invention still in its infancy. As for the nations not connected, I will just have adventures and other people rely on creatures such as griffons and giant eagles to fly them to a connected nation. Oh, and thank you, OravennasBrother, for that suggestion of enchanted cart wheels. I might mention to them to buy something similar to that to help ease the travel times, although I'm not quite sure what to price it at. As for why I want my players to be able to reach different nations swiftly, it is because time is going to be a very important factor in this campaign. What I'm wondering now is how fast/miles a day do you think such a subway system could be capable of producing? Thanks again for all the replies. Peace,
RobbyPants 04-30-07, 02:38 PM	Out of all the ideas suggested I still like the idea of a subway type system that uses a type of steam engine but instead of steam it is powered by electricity (shocker lizards). Thank you RobbyPants for clarifying how a modern subway worked, I had no idea honestly, ha. I didn't think that you didn't understand how they worked, I was merely pointing out that if you use that subway, then you need electric motors in your world for it to do anything. If that's fine with you, then go right ahead. I just don't think that the exsistance of electricity implies the existance of other electrical devices. Are there computers, TVs, or flourescent lights in your world?
wrecan 04-30-07, 02:47 PM	It may be too late to suggest but.... Purple worms are Int 1. This means they can be tamed and trained using the Handle Animal skill (with a -5 penalty on the checks). You can train the worm to Come, Swallow Safely and Regurgitate. Then the worm can swallow up to 8 Medium passengers and travel anywhere the worm-rider directs.
OravennasBrother 04-30-07, 03:20 PM	What I'm wondering now is how fast/miles a day do you think such a subway system could be capable of producing? Determine a good "per hour" rate A top human sprinter can make 20 miles per hour but a person will be quickly exhausted covering much over 20 miles a day (the Stonewall Brigade from the American Civil War was called "Foot cavalry" because they could manage an astonishing 100 mile march in just 4 days) Take the MPH speed and multiply by 24 to get the limit on travel, or multiply by 20 to get a good travel with stops, line transfers etc. So at 20 MPH you get 400 to 480 Miles per day. At 30 MPH you get 600 to 720 Miles per day At 40 MPH (the fastest I would reccomend) you get 800 to 960 Miles per day.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-30-07, 03:49 PM	I like the "ancient tech" idea. To make it more interesting, it could be that no one alive knows how the thing works. It jsut continues to run the line, back and forth, endlessly without any guidance or intervention from anyone. The benefits of this system is that you don't need to come up with the details and it can provide a potential plot device in the future (such as the thing starts to break down so the PCs, for whatever reason, must find a way to fix it, or it suddenly veers off and goes down a previously unknown tunnel to a new and mysterious desintation). I don;t know if anyone plays WoW, but the gnomish subway therein is a good example. There are no drivers and no visible means of motivation. The thing jsut runs to one end, stand idel for a while, then back to the otehr end. Over an over, without cesation or external intervention, and no way to stop it. If you miss it there is nothing to do but wait for the next one.
elondir 04-30-07, 04:33 PM	I see one massive problem with building an underground subway system: the underdark is full of races that hate surface-dwellers. Let's see, if we build a subway we have to deal with: umber hulks, mind flayers, drow, duergar, beholders, kuo-toans, derro, pech, ropers, and aboleths, and those are just the "common" races. If you're lucky you can get some svirfneblin to help you, but the cost of maintaining the rail would be enormous.
Krusk 04-30-07, 06:35 PM	I see one massive problem with building an underground subway system: the underdark is full of races that hate surface-dwellers. Let's see, if we build a subway we have to deal with: umber hulks, mind flayers, drow, duergar, beholders, kuo-toans, derro, pech, ropers, and aboleths, and those are just the "common" races. If you're lucky you can get some svirfneblin to help you, but the cost of maintaining the rail would be enormous. problem, or adventure idea?
swallowyersoul 04-30-07, 06:42 PM	if you groove on the train, more power to ya. should be a lot of fun, very memorable and the source of a number of cool adventure scenes. if all you really want is to spend less game time on travel, just use cut scenes: "It's an eight day ride to Farawayville. On the way you scare off some bandits, and a rain storm slows you down. You ride into Farawayville nine days after you left Neartown."
Prak, the Mad 05-01-07, 02:40 PM	there's also the idea of binding earth elementals to large wagons as subways...
Luis_Dragunov 05-02-07, 03:38 PM	I see one massive problem with building an underground subway system: the underdark is full of races that hate surface-dwellers. Let's see, if we build a subway we have to deal with: umber hulks, mind flayers, drow, duergar, beholders, kuo-toans, derro, pech, ropers, and aboleths, and those are just the "common" races. If you're lucky you can get some svirfneblin to help you, but the cost of maintaining the rail would be enormous. Underground != Underdark. You don't dig a well or build a sewer and hit a drow priestess or illithid with a shovel. The underdark is far, far below the surface, not some place anyone can break into just by making a couple of tunnels =D And not every world has an Underdark. That's pretty much the proving of FR... unless you're importing the whole sadomaso package into your own campaign world.
RellenMarn 05-02-07, 05:08 PM	How about Phanton Steed? Level 3 spell, a company has set up a series of stations which act as a magic item which boosts a wizards caster level by 10 for the purpose of creating Phantom steeds only. Cost maybe 300gp, maybe even less. I would contend a world could still be low magic with such a service - perhaps it is only available to those in certain organizations, etc.
Rutabaga 05-02-07, 08:25 PM	Are there computers, TVs, or flourescent lights in your world? No, there isn't. I was just saying that I honestly had no idea how subways worked. I thought they just required electricity, didn't even think about electric motors. However, in spite of all the replies, I still am partial to the idea of a subway powered by a steam engine type design that employs electricity. I also think a speed of 40 mph would be reasonable in cutting down time for the PCs. As for Underdark concerns, I do have a somewhat Underdark "world" within my setting, but it is not everywhere and as someone mentioned it is deep underground. THis rail sytem would not be deep underground, although an Underdark threat could only lead to possible plot hooks as I see it. Thank you for the idea of using phantom steed, RellenMarn, I had never even thought of that. I might implement that in another way. Thanks again for all the replies. Now I just have to think out specifics (my players crave descriptions) about how it runs. I was thinking maybe two different "engines" of shocker lizards that are intermittently being excited so that they do not become exhausted. Thanks again for all the replies. Peace
Kassil 05-02-07, 10:25 PM	However, in spite of all the replies, I still am partial to the idea of a subway powered by a steam engine type design that employs electricity. I also think a speed of 40 mph would be reasonable in cutting down time for the PCs. Well, a sustained current can generate heat due to resistance (which is basically energy loss for the electrical current); a high-resistance material will heat up and begin to burn/melt/etc rather quickly, while a low-resistance material such as copper, silver, and gold will stay cool for a lot longer and handle higher voltages. So if you posit some metal or alloy that conducts only moderately well, you could use the shocker lizards to drive a 'heating coil' around/under vats of water to produce the steam for a steam engine. You have to consider where all that moisture from the steam is going, though. If there's heavy enough subway traffic over a short distance, the steam will probably start condensing and turning the tunnels rather humid and slimy in short order, and if there's nowhere for a runoff for it, you might even start getting standing pools and the like; only a short distance underground the temperature generally becomes extremely stable and the air can become fairly stagnant easily.
daggeroflath 05-02-07, 11:19 PM	While an electric/steam engine is possible, it's grossly inefficient. Plus, IIRC, shocker lizards can do lethal damage around water which makes the system dangerous from that perspective.
Kassil 05-03-07, 12:01 AM	While an electric/steam engine is possible, it's grossly inefficient. Plus, IIRC, shocker lizards can do lethal damage around water which makes the system dangerous from that perspective. I never said it was efficient, safe, or sane. a lot of medieval technologies - and modern ones, to be honest - are grossly inefficient and hazardous to everyone involved. In truth, the OP would be better using a bound fire elemental, or creating a fire version of the shocker lizards, or just resorting to coal-fired above-ground railways for a lower-magic design. Or not explaining it at all and just having it there. Or, as one person suggested, necromancy. A handful of animated skeletons can keep working a treadmill indefinitely, and a single lever could easily disengage a a gear or somesuch and put the system into neutral or park at each station for something like ten minutes or however long until it gets re-engaged and the tramway takes off again. There are a lot of other solutions that are more effecient and safer, but if the OP is determined to use shocker lizards, I'd see this as the most likely way for it to happen; someone notices the lizards discharging can make metal heat up, someone else notices that steam can exert pressure, and it goes from there.
Dougan Axehammer 05-03-07, 02:46 AM	I enjoy the idea of teleportation circles set in the heart of some major cities. Then you open up all kinds of avenues for your campaign, trade routes, trade centers, strategic locations, as well as the ability to travel across the world quickly.