Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 01-13-06, 06:04 PM	I was watching SciFi channel recently and I realized something today. While Sci-fi entertainment has a longstanding history of producing great movies and great TV, Fantasy is often underfunded and comes off... well.. cheesy. So it occurs to me, it's high time we got a decent fantasy series... And while D&D doesn't exactly have a shining history of producing great cinema on the big or little screen, it may well be due. Think about it... Beholders, mind flayers, liches and, of course, dragons. It could even be set in Eberron or the Realms (although Eberron would probably be a better choice). No annoying DM character, no lame thing like showing the players of the characters in the series, and NO Marlon Wayans. So what do y'all think? Is there hope for a D&D TV show that actually... works? Or is the project not only doomed to suck, but doomed to suck and then get cancelled after three episodes?
DragonDeadite 01-13-06, 06:20 PM	.....here's a tip. Putting the letters "D&D" onto any sort of TV series is going to get it canceled. There are just too many people out there that still see the game as being satanic. However... I agree with there being a need for a decent "Fantasy" series. Personaly, I think another Hercules or Xena would be PERFECT right about now. I'd love to see them follow around the King of Thieves from the series (HAIL BRUCE!!!) in his own TV series... maybe something better than that Jack of All Trades series he did. Really, that's the last fantasy series I can think of (taking out Buffy which I still think is really good!). Having Beholders or Illithids would certainly be cool for the series, but it's hard to get that kind of a series going with the mentality of the general populace. PS: ALL of the movies on the sci-fi channel are underfunded and cheesy... there's even a few movies that use the exact same set but are supposed to happen on oposite ends of the world (or universe even).
red_scare87 01-13-06, 06:28 PM	(although Eberron would probably be a better choice) Hmmm...This is the kind of statement that gets your thread hijacked by Realms supporters. :P But you're right, we do need a solid fantasy series on television. A series set in Eberron would be excellent, though I would stay away from calling the series "Dungeons and Dragons". Honestly, you could probably call the series "Eberron". If it was set in the Realms you could call it "Forgotten Realms". DragonDeadite is right though, funding would be a big issue, pulling off the special effects for dragons or beholders or illithids would be quite costly. The problem is that if the special effects were lousy, even if the show was good in all other aspects, people would complain about it (especially on these boards).
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 01-13-06, 07:30 PM	I don't think calling it D&D would be a problem. If anything, it might get a little bit of free publicity from Jerry Falwell and the like. But yes, the FX would be the biggest problem. It is a heckuvalot easier to animate mechanical things than organic things, and it doesn't really matter what the medium is. That's where all that mecha and space suits in anime comes from... A lot of Japanese studios simply didn't have the money to animate organic things effectively, so they made do with what they had. So if there WERE a D&D series, the production would need to spend a fairly large ammount on FX, possibly outsourcing to ILM or some other FX workshop to make sure it's done right... Anything to make it look like Fantasy production standards have gone up since Dragonheart II. Still, while it is true that all movies on SciFi are cheesy, I'm referring to SciFi movies, not necessarily movies on the SciFi network. Right now we have Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter (ugh!), and Narnia... And something tells me if I were going to count all fantasy movies since the year 2000 released in America's theaters that aren't a LotR or HP movie, I could do so without running out of fingers. Fantasy gets more or less one a year of often dubious quality. SciFi gets three or four every summer, and often one good one in December. And the airwaves are a joke. Sure, almost every made-for-TV SciFi movie sucks royally, but at least they're making them. We get about as many made-for-TV fantasy movies as are released in theaters each year, if that many. And so far as series are concerned, Enterprise is still going, as are Battlestar Gallactica and two different Stargate series (all of which have better production values than most made-for-SciFi movies, oddly enough...). I think that not only could it be done, but it could be done well...
Ranger REG 01-14-06, 02:43 AM	I was watching SciFi channel recently and I realized something today. While Sci-fi entertainment has a longstanding history of producing great movies and great TV, Fantasy is often underfunded and comes off... well.. cheesy. So it occurs to me, it's high time we got a decent fantasy series... And while D&D doesn't exactly have a shining history of producing great cinema on the big or little screen, it may well be due. Think about it... Beholders, mind flayers, liches and, of course, dragons. It could even be set in Eberron or the Realms (although Eberron would probably be a better choice). No annoying DM character, no lame thing like showing the players of the characters in the series, and NO Marlon Wayans. So what do y'all think? Is there hope for a D&D TV show that actually... works? Or is the project not only doomed to suck, but doomed to suck and then get cancelled after three episodes? I'm wondering why you are suggesting we put it on the SCI-FI channel. Is it less likely to be cancelled on that network than on any of the four cable-free major networks?
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 01-14-06, 03:04 AM	Actually, I'm not necessarily suggesting it be put on the SciFi channel... I simply use it for reference since its subject matter is of a comparable variety. It would also be the network most likely to pick up a series and, hopefully, get the same kind of FX budget for it that they put behind Stargate. There isn't any reason why it couldn't be put on one of the four broadcast networks, really, but mainstream as D&D is becomming it is still too niche for broadcast. It would only really be successful on cable, and if it were live action I don't think any other network would really be that into the project... I could see TNT trying it out, but I doubt that the production offices there would really know what standard the FX should be done to. They'd probably get it up to the same par as Xena and stop there, which would really be a shame.
Seeker95 01-14-06, 11:41 AM	I'm wondering why you are suggesting we put it on the SCI-FI channel. Is it less likely to be cancelled on that network than on any of the four cable-free major networks?Yes. The four cable-free major networks have higher ratings requirements to maintain.
Zaxon D'Mir 01-14-06, 11:44 AM	There isn't any reason why it couldn't be put on one of the four broadcast networks, really, but mainstream as D&D is becomming it is still too niche for broadcast. It would only really be successful on cable, and if it were live action I don't think any other network would really be that into the project... I could see TNT trying it out, but I doubt that the production offices there would really know what standard the FX should be done to. They'd probably get it up to the same par as Xena and stop there, which would really be a shame. Stop there. Remember TNT tried out a Witchblade series with Yancy Butler. It stunk so bad she's still in rehab! Sci Fi channel is the only way right now. I'm really surprised that after the huge success of LOTR and HP movies that one of the big three networks (ABC especially) has not tried their hand at a fantasy based series. ABC is ripe for a series that fuses King Arthur's Camelot with Alias and Desperate Housewives. Throw in some magic and monsters and it might work. Let's see...Lancelot is really gay but he confides in the queen as a trusted friend. This leads to a rumor that they are having an affair. Merlin has ambigious morality - he's loyal to Arthur but that's it. Arthur is strong outwardly but secretly wishes he'd never pulled that damn sword from the stone because he really doesn't want to be the king. Seriously, something like this lightly marketed to geeks but trying hard to pull in the Lost, Alias and Desperate Housewives crowd could work. Personally I'd love to see a well produced series based on the Elric saga. Shot in New Zealand with the best special effects. But that's just me.
red_scare87 01-14-06, 12:08 PM	Sci Fi channel is the only way right now. I'm really surprised that after the huge success of LOTR and HP movies that one of the big three networks (ABC especially) has not tried their hand at a fantasy based series. ABC is ripe for a series that fuses King Arthur's Camelot with Alias and Desperate Housewives. Throw in some magic and monsters and it might work. Let's see...Lancelot is really gay but he confides in the queen as a trusted friend. This leads to a rumor that they are having an affair. Merlin has ambigious morality - he's loyal to Arthur but that's it. Arthur is strong outwardly but secretly wishes he'd never pulled that damn sword from the stone because he really doesn't want to be the king. Seriously, something like this lightly marketed to geeks but trying hard to pull in the Lost, Alias and Desperate Housewives crowd could work. Seriously, I've had just about enough of King Arthur and Camelot. How many bad movies on the subject need to be produced before everyone stops beating that dead horse. Sorry, I'm just mad that the movie "King Arthur" which came out a little while ago sucked on ice. Anyway, what we need is a fantasy series with a completely original plot, something never done before in a TV series or movie. Eberron is an excellent choice. Heck, if you wanna base it off the book series(which I admit I never read) that would be great. I think LOTR has opened the door and made fantasy more mainstream. Though I agree that some romance, political intrigue, and mystery would pull in a wider audience.
Orange_Death 01-14-06, 12:24 PM	i only have one hope for fantasy movies: I REALLY REALLY hope that Christopher Paolini's Eragon movie won't suck. It'll prolly be out in the summer. *crosses fingers*
Koga:The ninja trick 01-14-06, 01:34 PM	They could get around the D&D name by simply calling the series a campaign setting, we'd get it, the haters wouldn't. And anyone who's interested in fantasy/sci-fi but not nesscarely Dungeons&Dragons may well stumble upon it after seeing the series for a little while.. This way, we could expand our horizons, screw Greyhawk, there should be a SpellJammer or Darksun series! Then again whilest you were watching Hercules The Koga was watching Star Trek. And Trigun he thinks is the best anime ever.. :P
pangalactic 01-14-06, 01:47 PM	Spelljammer would be a good one, because they'd be able to market it at the SciFi audience.
Seeker95 01-14-06, 02:33 PM	TNT tried out a Witchblade series with Yancy Butler. It stunk so bad she's still in rehabIt didn't stink at all. It had good reviews and a continuation. It died because she went into rehab.
Zaxon D'Mir 01-14-06, 06:07 PM	It didn't stink at all. It had good reviews and a continuation. It died because she went into rehab. Nope Seeker it stunk! I have several issues of Witchblade and it was nothing like it (to me). It was BORING! Before Yancy even went into rehab ratings were sliding on a weekly basis. Believe me Red Scare no one at ABC/NBC/CBS/TNT/USA et. al. will touch Eberron. Sci Fi might (and that's a small might). USA was developing a Spelljammer cartoon about twelve years ago using (IIRC) the Pirates of Darkwater artists and it sunk like a stone. The same is true about the Dark Sun cartoon again brought to the table by USA Network around 1998, it too sunk like Gillian Anderson's acting career. People today want Lost/Alias/The OC/House M.D./Desperate Housewives stuff. Us D&D geeks can't keep fantasy shows afloat by ourselves. It will take a small legion of devoted non-D&D fans along with us to do that. The closest we've ever come to an actual D&D TV show was Hercules and Xena. Sad but true.
Seeker95 01-14-06, 06:36 PM	Nope Seeker it stunk! I have several issues of Witchblade and it was nothing like it (to me). It was BORING! Before Yancy even went into rehab ratings were sliding on a weekly basis.You are making the mistake of exchanging your own expectations with those of the Nielsen viewers. The show was re-upped. Then Yancy went into rehab, and they decided to end the show rather than replacing her.
Koga:The ninja trick 01-14-06, 07:25 PM	Well that was the problem, they went animated, if they did Darksun or SpellJammer with real people, we'd get the sci-fi and fantasy fans working together to make one kickass series. Darksun could also appear to the enviormentalists because they'd intterupet arcane magick to meal coal and nuclear energy lol! And SpellJammer could also appeal to the more drama type viewers, because SpellJammer takes itself very seriously, it isn't bodly going where no man has gone before, it's going where no man WANTS to go, because slavery, drugs, and gang-wars follow.. Though if they had known then what we know now, they would've done the animations anime style, then it would've succeeded. Look how well that stupid Teen Titans has done, give them big eyes and the occassional chibi sketch in humor-bits, and boom, you have a money-maker..
Cooked_Auto 01-14-06, 07:37 PM	i only have one hope for fantasy movies: I REALLY REALLY hope that Christopher Paolini's Eragon movie won't suck. It'll prolly be out in the summer. *crosses fingers* :gah: Good grief. I have totally forgotten about that book is being made into a movie. And yes, I'm really hoping that it will be a good one. As I loved that book and then Eldest. Why do everyone think that a D&D series just have to have monsters just because its D&D. Why not just have intriguies and plots instead of massive monsters that just needs to be killed because they are monsters. Sure, one or two monsters could be tossed in. But keeping it centered on humanoids and plots between them would be sooo much better. So good makeup could do for goblinoids and orc (just take a look at LOTR for that) would suffice without any expensive SFX.
scienceman47 01-14-06, 10:05 PM	So whats the casting on that? And is it the main DnD characters? Like Tordek and Ember and whatnot? Or should be a unique adventure with original characters? I like the idea, but attaching the DnD name overtly will do nothing but repel. Not because the American public thinks its satanic, but because the American public thinks its geeky. Its not something you brag about around the water cooler. DnD classes, DnD monsters, DnD settings, everything but the name. By the way, does anyone else think John Leguazamo (not sure about the spelling) would play a mean Nebbin (see avatar). Maybe not the best, but a pretty good one.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 01-15-06, 12:25 AM	Y'all are right, I suppose. The geeky cannotations D&D has would drive too many away... But I'd say Eberron would have the broadest appeal. For one thing, it was designed to have broad appeal. For another thing, it is the only setting consciously modelled off of cinema and literature to have as much potential for dramatic variance as possible. Probably moreso than any other published setting, Eberron can take into account well nigh anything. Political intrigue (Eberron: Riven Continent), war drama (Eberron: The Last War), crime dramas (Eberron: Sharn Watch), high-adventure (Eberron: Legends in the Making), or whatever else have you. And it wouldn't need monsters the way we think of them in every episode, but let's face it... to non-gamers, orcs are monsters. What do you suppose the public would think of a rakshasa?
Ranger REG 01-15-06, 01:06 AM	ABC is ripe for a series that fuses King Arthur's Camelot with Alias and Desperate Housewives. It was called Covington's Cross back then. :P
Auburn 01-15-06, 01:43 AM	A Forgotten Realms series would be awesome. Wierd that DnD has done so little to crossover into entertainment aside from roleplaying.
Auburn 01-15-06, 01:51 AM	Why do everyone think that a D&D series just have to have monsters just because its D&D. Why not just have intriguies and plots instead of massive monsters that just needs to be killed because they are monsters. Why make a fantasy series if you want to minimize the fantasy elements? More on the topic at hand why go to the trouble of obtaining a license to use DnD stuff if you want to minimize the presence of DnD stuff in your show?
Prak, the Mad 01-15-06, 07:09 AM	I was watching SciFi channel recently and I realized something today. While Sci-fi entertainment has a longstanding history of producing great movies and great TV, Fantasy is often underfunded and comes off... well.. cheesy. So it occurs to me, it's high time we got a decent fantasy series... And while D&D doesn't exactly have a shining history of producing great cinema on the big or little screen, it may well be due. Think about it... Beholders, mind flayers, liches and, of course, dragons. It could even be set in Eberron or the Realms (although Eberron would probably be a better choice). No annoying DM character, no lame thing like showing the players of the characters in the series, and NO Marlon Wayans. So what do y'all think? Is there hope for a D&D TV show that actually... works? Or is the project not only doomed to suck, but doomed to suck and then get cancelled after three episodes? x.O... am I the only one who saw "Rapter Island"? ... most of the "Sci-fi Original" stuff that was actually produced by them is not that great... to put it nicely... edit: sorry for, well, redundancy(?) I didn't read the whole thread first... but yes, the made for tv scifi sucks...
Hasmead_Guy 01-15-06, 07:14 AM	It would be cool, if you had really good writers that could come up with neat story ideas that would appeal to the average viewer, AND incorporate D&D material, but that's probably not going to happen. If it does, there will be good things about it, and things about it that just suck. If it ever did, God I hope it wouldn't turn out like Buffy/Firefly/Angel/Xena/Hercules. Because.... what's wrong with you people, those shows were ridiculously cheezy! And I even liked Angel and Firefly.
Prak, the Mad 01-15-06, 07:18 AM	And it wouldn't need monsters the way we think of them in every episode, but let's face it... to non-gamers, orcs are monsters. What do you suppose the public would think of a rakshasa? um... "holy :censored:!!!"?
Prak, the Mad 01-15-06, 07:23 AM	It would be cool, if you had really good writers that could come up with neat story ideas that would appeal to the average viewer, AND incorporate D&D material, but that's probably not going to happen. If it does, there will be good things about it, and things about it that just suck. If it ever did, God I hope it wouldn't turn out like Buffy/Firefly/Angel/Xena/Hercules. Because.... what's wrong with you people, those shows were ridiculously cheezy! And I even liked Angel and Firefly. um... cheezy doesn't neccessarily mean unpopular, Jackie Chan Adventures was(is? is it still on?) quite popular, granted, popular with a demographic other than what they'd planned, but still, not to mention, Jackie Chan movies are very popular, and incredibly cheezy
RobCfordJr 01-15-06, 08:13 AM	The trouble it seems, to me, with landing a decent DnD related series today would be finding a new angle to work with, as fantasy has been around back when it was our own history (i.e. King Arthur, any given myth, etc). Finding a plot that revolves around something other than saving a princess, slaying a dragon, unearthing a rare treasure, or otherwise hasn't been hashed, re-hashed, bashed, and beaten into the ground is what most producers/directors look for it seems. Also due to various religious badgering it seems to be a touchy subject using the term Dungeons and Dragons in anything these days w/o having some irate parent screaming "Dr. Satan!!!" at you. I myself think all of those dorky fantasy flicks of the 70's and 80's are to blame for the crappy fantasy rep; among which were Hawk the Slayer, Any of the Gor series, Any Lou Ferrigno dubbed flick, anything starring the Barbarian Brothers, The Dungeon Master, Yor Hunter from the Future, sheese anything a random Italian director would put out staring Miles O'Keefe, or some other Ator/Conan clone back then – Man was it me or was Jack Palance in most everyone of those movies as well? Lmao! I had to really give them props for producing Earthsea; even though it was short and marred with some poor acting. It managed to make it through the red tape marring most fantasy flicks. Find an angle that utilizes what's hot currently and doesn't come across as having been "totally beaten to death before", and lastly find one rich ass geeky gamer of a producer and we shall see your DnD tv series. Hell they are making Dungeon Siege the movie and after seeing the trailer, I know anything is possible (*wretches at the trailer*). Game On! P.S. I think they should have a series detailing the goblinoid tribes, perhaps in a tropical/jungle type setting; utilizing the yuan-ti? Perhaps a jungle expedition of heroes that got lost/went over a waterfall and now are out of their element…
Azual 01-15-06, 08:50 AM	That's where all that mecha and space suits in anime comes from... A lot of Japanese studios simply didn't have the money to animate organic things effectively, so they made do with what they had. what about Godzilla. THOSE were really good special effects! <Japanese mouthing something> (seven seconds later) "we must go to the mountain!"
SirCaran 01-15-06, 09:21 AM	Still, while it is true that all movies on SciFi are cheesy, I'm referring to SciFi movies, not necessarily movies on the SciFi network. Right now we have Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter (ugh!), and Narnia... And something tells me if I were going to count all fantasy movies since the year 2000 released in America's theaters that aren't a LotR or HP movie, I could do so without running out of fingers. Fantasy gets more or less one a year of often dubious quality. SciFi gets three or four every summer, and often one good one in December. And the airwaves are a joke. Sure, almost every made-for-TV SciFi movie sucks royally, but at least they're making them. We get about as many made-for-TV fantasy movies as are released in theaters each year, if that many. And so far as series are concerned, Enterprise is still going, as are Battlestar Gallactica and two different Stargate series (all of which have better production values than most made-for-SciFi movies, oddly enough...). Well think of it this way. The reason fantasy is still very popular i that it hasnt been done to death. "reality" tv is getting on everyones nerves (at least mine) because it is the same thing over and over again, just different people and involving different things, the latest one "Skating With the Stars", and one i heard about "Singing with the Stars". Notice they just replaced Skating with Singing. Same damn show, different objective. If i was putting out 4 sci fi movies a year i would cut production also. They are simply trying to tide everyone over until the next one. I am starting to get sick of the whole sci-fi thing, it is getting cheesy. I still like both stargate series. That is because of the story is plausible. this other crap they put out is just stretching, i.e. Bats, Cats, Rats, Cobra, Anaconda, Cobra vs. Anaconda. What is that. I think that one Fantasy movie per year is perfect. One Movie to look forward to. Not ten (as a college student who can't afford). And the genre doesn't get the life sucked out of it by the corprate Vampires trying to make a buck. that is my 2pp (yes platinum :)
Zaxon D'Mir 01-15-06, 09:38 AM	It was called Covington's Cross back then. :P Crap! I'd forgotten all about that one. That was more like Ivanhoe meets the Brady Bunch! And I didn't know that the English were so PC during the days of rampant feudalism. ;)
Zaxon D'Mir 01-15-06, 09:45 AM	You are making the mistake of exchanging your own expectations with those of the Nielsen viewers. The show was re-upped. Then Yancy went into rehab, and they decided to end the show rather than replacing her. I guess it's to bad she wasn't Dave Chapelle. They would have waited for her to get out of rehab. :)
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 01-15-06, 11:32 AM	x.O... am I the only one who saw "Rapter Island"? ... most of the "Sci-fi Original" stuff that was actually produced by them is not that great... to put it nicely... edit: sorry for, well, redundancy(?) I didn't read the whole thread first... but yes, the made for tv scifi sucks... You misunderstand. By Sci-Fi entertainment I wasn't referring to movies made by Sci-Fi network... Just Sci-Fi in general. and Azual, the bad dubbing wasn't the Japanese's fault... That's pure American craftsmanship there :P And personally, I don't think a few more fantasy movies would be a bad thing. I mean, of all the SciFi movies that come out every year, at least one of them is normally pretty good. With fantasy movies they have to be good... And if you hate certain annoying pubescant wizards, you're hosed. But really, a series would be great. Something that could easilly be a modern drama, but in a fantasy setting... Like CSI: Sharn or something like that.
larry_the_titan 01-15-06, 12:37 PM	If it ever did, God I hope it wouldn't turn out like Buffy/Firefly/Angel/Xena/Hercules. Because.... what's wrong with you people, those shows were ridiculously cheezy! And I even liked Angel and Firefly. And what is wrong with them? Oh wait they were a little cheezey at times and Nacho-ey at others but they where all good long running series. Well all but Firefly I dont know much about Firefly I havent got to watch very much of it but I think they released a movie from it last year. Yes it would take a lot of money to make a Ebberon series but heck it is not like most of the Monster Manual hasnt already had its day in a movie a series. Ok so most of the monsters on the movie dont work the same way as the monsters in D&D but we have all seen the dragons, werewolves, vampires, Animated Objects and if you watch "Big Trouble in Little China" you have even seen a Beholder. I would love to find a movie source for Mind Flayers but I cant think of one. The building blocks for a D&D based series are already out there they just need to have it put together. I think it will take them about 5 yrs before WotC just decides to put together a series and not a movie or a Cartoon (which was a mistake).
Koga:The ninja trick 01-15-06, 05:53 PM	You know, actually D&D should take itself less seriously, The Koga could see a cartoon series that's more mature-themed, and aims at the D&D audeince themselves as well as those curious to rpgs, it takes a group of adventurers who are real life people PLAYING D&D. So like they're fully aware of the real-world but at the sametime we watch the plot breakout. It could be very sarcastic, cynical, and even cruel in some regards. That's when mature humor is funny. Like have any of you ever read Preacher by Vertigo? That kindof funny. Not this stupid Drawn Together/Tripping the Rift crap. The Koga swears, watching that stuff will retard your mind..
GreatEye 01-15-06, 06:21 PM	Good thoughts, Koga. I don't watch much television, but I would absolutely watch a quality animated series based on any D&D setting. Have you seen Justice League on Cartoon Network? I've watched a few episodes and it's a well-written, kickass show. Take the talent who did JL and give them Eberron, FR, or Greyhawk and it would be great and people would watch it. P.S. A live-action D&D series would ultimately be velveeta cheesy.
Draconae 01-15-06, 06:39 PM	Personally, it would be awesome to have a fantasy program on TV. Being a New Zealander, I know what this country has to offer in terms of SFX and scenery. A lot. We've had LOTR and Narnia here, so we can brag a little bit. Anywho, as a D&D-er, to see a quality, involved fantasy TV series would be great. Special effects budget would probably be quite substantial, maybe not a Peter Jackson-esk sum though. Question is, what does everyone want? Well there's the obvious right? Storyline, depth, no cheesy plastic looking armour etc, monsters with some credibility and...no rip offs! Last thing I want is a 80's budget plastic slug-fest. I've seen some of the fantasy movies available at the video store. Really depressing selection. Best there is is LOTR, Harry Potter and possibly Dragonheart. And let's face it, even if there was a huge SFX budget, someone is going to complain. (I think I'm rambling). Like Comic Book Guy on the Simpsons. Stargate SG-1 is the best Sci-fi series I've ever seen, the storyline was good, complex characters and interstellar travel. Brilliant. Why is it that Sci-fi seems to get more respect than fantasy? That and better funding. For TV anyway. I'm not sure who gets the worst rep. Sci-fi geeks or fantasy nerds. What do people want in the series anyway? Maybe a few concrete ideas would be good.
Seeker95 01-15-06, 06:39 PM	The Koga's idea is great if... You are willing to pay development costs yourself; and Are willing to put it on a no-frills cable channel; and Don't need to make your money back from advertising costs. Television programs are normalloy aired to make money from commercial advertisers. A show, animated or otherwise, aimed at "the D&D crowd" had better be generic fantasy enough to get the "not-D&D crowd" in sufficient numbers to make advertisers happy. Listening to some of the things some of you have said would be "cool" I am confident that the "D&D crowd" is far from monolithic enough to intrigue enough commercial advertisers to cover a full half hour of commercials. I would love to see more animated fantasy on television. But the commercial reality dictates that it had better be pretty generic to get on the air, and pretty devoid of anything even minimally D&D in content to stay on the air.
Koga:The ninja trick 01-15-06, 07:07 PM	Have you seen Justice League on Cartoon Network? I've watched a few episodes and it's a well-written, kickass show. Oh The Koga loves it, it's serious yet interesting. (Most drama shows bore The Koga.) It truly captures the feel of superheroes on the silverscreen. Well obviously The Koga would need a major company to back him up, he's poorer then the average bear lol.. What do you mean no-frills? The Koga assumes you mean able to take risks, that happens with any t.v. show.. As for marketing, that's easy, "Watch Dungeons&Dragons, if not.. you're a ****ing geek!" Trust The Koga, that would catch the average American's attention. "I'll show that damn Koga i'm no geek! *Munches on a bagel (no trans-fatty acids!)*" :P
Ranger REG 01-16-06, 02:30 AM	A Forgotten Realms series would be awesome. Wierd that DnD has done so little to crossover into entertainment aside from roleplaying. Well, DnD can't really do much because it is a game, not a company. :P And Hollywood have never been too fond of rpg-based fantasy genre. If the two D&D films are any indication, I think it is suited for syndication programming. Unfortunately, syndication shows have gone out since Hercules and Xena have bowed out back in the last millenium. HOWEVER, videogame-based fantasy genre are much more acceptable because let's face it, there are more videogamers than there are D&D-specific roleplayers.
bakomusha 01-16-06, 08:15 AM	how about a show based on *shuders* drizzt? i know at least 3 people who know him, but dont know hes dnd, in fact a large portion of my family reads dragonlance, and forgotten realms books, but when i tell them its dnd they think iam lying. i personaly think thered be a warcraft seires or movie, before another dnd movie, or series. its quet abveas, that any product baring the dnd name is boned to be shot down my religios concerns.( my mom said that it would be good publicity, but when it comes to dnd most publicty is bad, that kid with bi-polar that killed his family, they found dnd source books in his backpack and blamed it no it wasnt the 80s, it was a year or so ago. or how about some places still banning the sell or purches of dnd related matarils?)
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 01-16-06, 02:25 PM	See, you guys are seriously overestimating the ammount of negative press D&D gets. The ONLY news of bad press I've seen is on these boards. Those groups that are so anti-D&D are not anywhere close to a sizable population (I'd number the actual membership of such groups in the thousands), and many are as anti-Emancipation Proclamation as they are anti-D&D. It may just be luck, but where I live there is absolutely no stigma against D&D. Hell, I've moved around a lot and I've NEVER lived somewhere where D&D has a stigma. I have cousins who live in the South, and they have never seen any sort of stigma against D&D. Face it, D&D's gone mainstream.
GreatEye 01-16-06, 09:29 PM	See, you guys are seriously overestimating the ammount of negative press D&D gets. I agree, the only press I've seen on D&D in years has been positive. Examples: How much D&D influenced today's computer games and computer programmers; the anniversary of D&D; Worldwide D&D Game Day- I've heard all of this in mainstream media very recently. It may just be luck, but where I live there is absolutely no stigma against D&D. Hell, I've moved around a lot and I've NEVER lived somewhere where D&D has a stigma. I have cousins who live in the South, and they have never seen any sort of stigma against D&D. That's luck. There is a stigma surrounding D&D and D&D players. And the stereotypes of D&D players seem to accurately portray a sizeable portion of actual D&D players. (But that's another subject that we don't need to delve into on this thread) Face it, D&D's gone mainstream. I guess I wouldn't call D&D mainstream. Mainstream to me is more like Reality TV, NFL, NASCAR, and maybe Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Not D&D ;) But that doesn't mean that an animated series wouldn't be popular, damnit!
The Grig Fiddler 01-16-06, 10:34 PM	They should make a fantasy reality show. Like Ice Wind Dale Survivor, The Wizards Apprentice, RealWorld Waterdeep.That would be sweet. :rimshot:
Ranger REG 01-17-06, 01:38 AM	You know, actually D&D should take itself less seriously,... No, the fans of D&D should take themselves less seriously, but then again, the combined D&D films are not as half as enjoyable as the Pirates of the Caribbeans. And no CSI: Waterdeep. Procedural drama and fantasy should not mix.
Thurbane 01-18-06, 09:29 PM	A little offtopic, but I'm desperately hoping that someone can remember the name of a TV show for me. I'm pretty sure it only lasted one season (if that) and was on in the 80s (or maybe early 90s). It was about a heroic prince, and his companion was a fat guy who could speak with animals. The arch nemesis was an evil prince (or count or somesuch) who was always plotting to have the main character killed. I think it was a one hour show. The only episode I can clearly remember was was the arch villain hired a wizard to resurrect an ancient evil knight to kill the good prince, but the wizard betrayed the villain and sent the knight after him instead. If anyone can name this TV show I would be extremely grateful! :)
Ranger REG 01-19-06, 02:32 AM	I had to really give them props for producing Earthsea; even though it was short and marred with some poor acting. It managed to make it through the red tape marring most fantasy flicks. Doubt it, especially when the literary creator publicly complained about the novel-based film work.
Seeker95 01-19-06, 09:50 AM	Doubt it, especially when the literary creator publicly complained about the novel-based film work.I don't take an author's view of a film of his or her work all that seriously when that view is negative. Anne Rice publicly admonished the creators of Interview with a Vampire, urging people not to go, etc. Turns out her only beef was the casting of Tom Cruise as Lestat. When she finally watched the movie, she changed her tune. And kept her mouth shut when they made Queen of the Damned. Book to Movie is a difficult process at best. It replaces your imagination with explicit interpretation -- someone else's interp. If you aren't the kind of person who accepts others' interpretations over your own*, you're probably not going to like it. *Most authors that I have spoken with aren't.
LurkeroftheUnderworld 01-19-06, 06:28 PM	A D&D comedy might be interesting. A TV series based on an Order of the Stick situation with less jokes about rules and more jokes about random aspects of fantasy. Things like anachronism can provide limitless humor. The Party bard riding around on a horse with chrome horseshoes talking like *shudders* Snoop-Dog :gah: . The fighter could be like some drill sergent stereo-type, making D&D rules jokes as he rants about some tactical error made by a party member. This should appeal to the regular TV couch potatoes and make D&D nerds like us happy.
Rocketboy13 01-19-06, 06:42 PM	Considering the retro cartoons that have come to populate cartoon network (He-man, Ninja Turtles), the call back to 90's marvel cartoons (Spider-man, X-men), coupled with the success of offbeat anime (Zatch bell, Bobobo) :rolleyes: you would think that a new D&D cartoon would be a popular creation for toonamie. If they could just blend enough humor into it to hold the youth (like Beast Boy on Teen Titans) along with enough action and intensity to attract a more adult audience (Ruruni Kenshin, I think that is how it is spelled) then they could create a really good show. I like the idea of stereo types as characters, getting Gunny from the history channel's Mail Call to play a no nonsense Paladin would be cool. :)
red_scare87 01-19-06, 06:53 PM	I'll make this brief: If they're going to do a new D&D cartoon it should be done by Genndy Tartakovsky of Samurai Jack and Clone Wars fame. He knows how to make a cartoon that blends seriousness and comedy. I mean, if it would be as popular as Samurai Jack, that would be a very good thing. I'm a bit of a Genndy Tartakovsky fanboy, I'm not gonna lie. :D
primemover003 01-19-06, 07:30 PM	Let's face it D&D is seen as geeky still. I just watched Conan O'Brian Last night and he was comparing Josh Lucas's Poker game to "his" D&D night... but he was acting like the biggest geek in the universe. To do a Good fantasy series well you have to stay away from the cheesy camp that was Hercules, Xena, or Beastmaster and keep it more along the lines of Stargate SG-1, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Farscape, and Jeremiah or mini-series like Children of Dune, & Merlin... In fact Hallmark entertainment's in production of a sequal to Merlin.
Stardrake 01-19-06, 10:49 PM	A little offtopic, but I'm desperately hoping that someone can remember the name of a TV show for me. I'm pretty sure it only lasted one season (if that) and was on in the 80s (or maybe early 90s). It was about a heroic prince, and his companion was a fat guy who could speak with animals. The arch nemesis was an evil prince (or count or somesuch) who was always plotting to have the main character killed. I think it was a one hour show. The only episode I can clearly remember was was the arch villain hired a wizard to resurrect an ancient evil knight to kill the good prince, but the wizard betrayed the villain and sent the knight after him instead. If anyone can name this TV show I would be extremely grateful! :) That was a 1983 series called WIZARDS AND WARRIORS. Closest thing to a live-action D&D series ever (although the magic system was completely different... :D ) Starred Jeff Conaway (TAXI, BABYLON 5) and Duncan Regehr (lots o' TV) and some truly 80's hair styles. For much more, check this link (http://wizardsandwarriors.org/) I greatly enjoyed this show during its short run. (For once, there was a rotund sidekick character who was competent! As a person of a certain size, myself, I appreciated that.... :clap: ) Hope this helps!
LordofNightmares 01-20-06, 12:41 AM	Law and Order, Ebberon: Special Warforged Unit
Ranger REG 01-20-06, 08:11 PM	I don't take an author's view of a film of his or her work all that seriously when that view is negative. Anne Rice publicly admonished the creators of Interview with a Vampire, urging people not to go, etc. Turns out her only beef was the casting of Tom Cruise as Lestat. When she finally watched the movie, she changed her tune. And kept her mouth shut when they made Queen of the Damned. Ugh! Don't talk to me about Tom Cruise. :nonono: Surely, you truly think that SCI-FI's Earthsea film was good? :uh-huh:
BobSutan 01-21-06, 10:59 PM	Hmmm...This is the kind of statement that gets your thread hijacked by Realms supporters. :P Heh, I was going to recommend DragonLance.
Dr. Benway 01-21-06, 11:21 PM	.....here's a tip. Putting the letters "D&D" onto any sort of TV series is going to get it canceled. There are just too many people out there that still see the game as being satanic. You know the eighties were like, 20 years ago right? LOL Just kidding man but I havent heard anyone make a satanism reference in relation to DnD for at least that long. That was one incident a loooong time ago. And besides, network shows like NYPD blue never mind HBO and Showtime series like Rome have things WAY more controversial then a wizard nuking a dragon. Otherwise movies like LotR, Hairy Snotter, and the Narnia trilogy wouldnt do well at all. And thankfully, they have been cleaning up... DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
Ranger REG 01-22-06, 03:01 AM	Otherwise movies like LotR, Hairy Snotter,... "Hairy Snotter"??? What's with the hate, Herr Doctor?
Thurbane 01-22-06, 04:46 PM	That was a 1983 series called WIZARDS AND WARRIORS. Closest thing to a live-action D&D series ever (although the magic system was completely different... :D ) Starred Jeff Conaway (TAXI, BABYLON 5) and Duncan Regehr (lots o' TV) and some truly 80's hair styles. For much more, check this link (http://wizardsandwarriors.org/) I greatly enjoyed this show during its short run. (For once, there was a rotund sidekick character who was competent! As a person of a certain size, myself, I appreciated that.... :clap: ) Hope this helps! You sir, have my eternal gratitude - thank you very, very much! :D
scienceman47 01-22-06, 06:40 PM	Genndy Tartakovsky is a master of stylish action. Do note that it is easier to say "gravy tartersauce" than his actual name. And people watching the show will undoubtedly expect tartersauce style play if it attacts them to DnD. Which they will be completely unable to do until epic.
red_scare87 01-22-06, 06:58 PM	Genndy Tartakovsky is a master of stylish action. Do note that it is easier to say "gravy tartersauce" than his actual name. And people watching the show will undoubtedly expect tartersauce style play if it attacts them to DnD. Which they will be completely unable to do until epic. And to this I reply: Who cares? If it's a good show it will attract them to D&D and it doesn't matter if it's under a false impression of "stylish action". First of all, I don't know what you mean by stylish action. Second, my picture of stylish actions seems like it would be good for a D&D show. Third, why does it have to be completely based on D&D? Any show, cartoon or not, that's High Fantasy would work for me. P.S. Randomly making fun of the guy's name isn't very tasteful. This made me not take your opinions at all seriously.
Morbid 01-23-06, 01:19 AM	They should put it out, but because of the "Satanic" background of Dungeons and dragons, they should call it like Mazes and Monsters. (note the likeness) and then abbreviate it M&M. Much happier name to those who hate us, and by what I know, the people who hate us will never notice the difference.
Seeker95 01-23-06, 08:57 AM	they should call it like Mazes and MonstersYou did see the Tom-Hanks-as-a-nobody movie of the same name that gave more fuel to the anti-D&D fire because when the producers did nothing to indicate it was a fictional story based on a fictional novel... right? Mazes and Monsters (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084314/)
Dargon7 01-24-06, 02:47 AM	Believe me, I thought Mazes and Monsters was a decent movie, but again, yes, it gave the Dungeons and Dragons craze one of the biggest bloody noses of all time. Because of course, it gave other people and kids the idea, "Hey...lets make weapons and go do stuff like they did". How stupid??? Anyway, now I'm done raving about that. I think a TV series based around a friendship (maybe a few different races introduced) of beginning to lower level heroes taking on adventures could lead to a pretty good series that would seem to do nothing but cresendo it's way till they did some type of epic deed to end the series. Just have to make sure that each episode keeps getting better, maybe with a reaccuring villian that maybe gets killed/destroyed/dies every year. Inter-plotting story lines. It could make it possibly. I wouldn't do any serious storylines until episode 7 or 8, just to find out whom your main characters are (probably based on popularity) that your probably not going to kill, or maybe you will because of it. I kinda got the idea (sorry to say) from a cartoon series from the 80's - 90's that lasted a few years about Camelot. It was called "The Legend of Prince Valiant". Very well written in my opinion. It actually had some major actors doing some of the voices, which I think was quite the reason that it went on for some time. Great soundtrack as well. I mean, come on, if PAX can have a Musketeers TV-show (co-starring Bruce Boxleitner of Babylon 5 fame), we can sure get a Fantasy Adventure TV-show into production.
Fox Lee 01-24-06, 03:48 AM	I'd like to see another D&D cartoon. As much of 90% of the current cartoon market sucks horrible arse (if I see another new Nickelodeon/Disney cartoon that's a cheap, throwaway, hideously ugly trai wreck, I may well scream), there have been a few recent western animated shows which were still pretty cool and quite clever, even with kids as an audience (Jackie Chan Adventures, X-Men Evolution, the new TMNT etc). Frankly, after the movie(s) I don't ever want to see live action D&D again - and honestly, I don't think they could ever turn out good enough special effects on a regular basis to support anything that really felt like D&D. I think a new animated series would be the go, possibly based on the new "younger readers" books they've been releasing. Realistically speaking, a show targeted at adults would never fly. But a show targeted at the "harry potter" crowd might do well, and I'm sure I'm not the only geek who would totally watch it anyway ;p
bakomusha 01-24-06, 03:59 AM	kinda like how teen titans cartoon is aimed at kids, but a large % of fans are young adults-adults. now that i think of it, if there was to be a new dnd cartoon, thered be a market in old school fans, kinda like how some ppl watch the newer versions of some old school cartoons(like tmnt,gijoe, and to a lesser degree power rangers.) i woulndt be surprised if theres a thundercats remake in the works, but to fly it must be aimed again at the harry potter-movie lord of the rings kids.
scienceman47 01-24-06, 04:00 AM	And to this I reply: Who cares? If it's a good show it will attract them to D&D and it doesn't matter if it's under a false impression of "stylish action". First of all, I don't know what you mean by stylish action. Second, my picture of stylish actions seems like it would be good for a D&D show. Third, why does it have to be completely based on D&D? Any show, cartoon or not, that's High Fantasy would work for me. P.S. Randomly making fun of the guy's name isn't very tasteful. This made me not take your opinions at all seriously. You obviously dont know who Genddy Tartakovsky is. Genddy Tartakovsky is an animator who worked on "star wars, clone wars" and samurai jack. He and another guy named Craig McCracken worked on Dexters Lab. So im familiar with most of his work. When I say "stylish action", I mean style, and action. He is obsessed with it. Samurai Jack was basically style and action. A great deal of sword slashing, with long pauses to build up tension. Very little dialog. To be fair the dialog is pretty good. But not much of it, a small intermission before crazy melee breaks out. All of his work bears a signature, if you have seen some of what he does, you can recognize it again. He also doesnt know how to hold back. If you watched clone wars first before any star wars movie you would be wondering why Mace or Yoda or Obi Wan dont simply destroy the entire droid army by their lonesome. The vision that Lucas had for the movie could never keep up with Genddy. Basically you would have a lot of hack and slash. Stylish hack and slash. And if a troll got his arm cut off, a new one would shoot out of the stump like a bullet. A hill giant attack would cause earthquakes with a missed attack, and so on and so forth. And one of the things people on the boards complain about is that DnD is not just hack and slash. Genddy does great work, but I think someone who could capture deep characters that grow with the show in addition to the fight scences is necessary. Genddy would push all of that aside. And just because I like to say Gravy Tartersauce doesnt mean I have good taste. Gravy and tartersauce are just funny words, like duck and taco. And duck taco.
kraegor 01-24-06, 12:20 PM	Ok, here are a few thoughts. #1. When a D&D type movie comes out, it generally bombs. Why? Because all they are doing is putting Person A in Group A to Fight Evil Generic Warlord/Wizard. This flops, all the time. There is usually no character development. The writing is usually very crappy. The actors are usually crappy as well. #2. Look at all the great movies, Lord of the Rings, Excalibur, etc.. they all had character development, great writers, great actors, and even though they where EXACTLY what D&D is (just varied settings) they aren't labeled as D&D type movies. They are labeled as Fantasy/Sci-Fi movies and are huge budget and an ace-in-the-hole to begin with. #3. To have a TV series, you definately need to have a soap-opera type of thing going. No one just watches the series week to week unless they are geekoid loyal fans. Almost all longrunning sci-fi series die out unless they start character growth, and continuing situations. Look at Stargate, Hercules, Xena, Farscape... they where almost all dead the first season until the writers took initiative and started creating actual PEOPLE in actual situations and drama instead of yeah, Xena kicks someones butt. It turned out to be, why is Xena kicking his butt? Oh.. he was the warlord that used her for a sex slave and left her for dead 10 years ago. AHHHH!!! Cool. So as you see, there are lots of reasons, and ANYTHING can be made into a TV series, but its just the DRAMA that people want. People are more drawn to drama than action, its just the way it is. Thats why Titanic and other movies are higher sellers than most of Arnold Swartzeneggars films combined.
Fox Lee 01-24-06, 06:31 PM	kinda like how teen titans cartoon is aimed at kids, but a large % of fans are young adults-adults. now that i think of it, if there was to be a new dnd cartoon, thered be a market in old school fans, kinda like how some ppl watch the newer versions of some old school cartoons(like tmnt,gijoe, and to a lesser degree power rangers.) i woulndt be surprised if theres a thundercats remake in the works, but to fly it must be aimed again at the harry potter-movie lord of the rings kids. Exactly! I figure, from a financial perspective (and let's not kid ourselves, there's no way Wizards will consider it if it's not finiancially sensible) the old-school fans are pretty much a a guaranteed audience; choosing their secondary audience well is what will make or break the film, and their secondary audience is certainly not your mainstream adult TV-watcher :p #1. When a D&D type movie comes out, it generally bombs. Why? Because all they are doing is putting Person A in Group A to Fight Evil Generic Warlord/Wizard. This flops, all the time. There is usually no character development. The writing is usually very crappy. The actors are usually crappy as well. Points for your point, sir. This is exactly the issue; the films they make which are supposedly representative of the game we enjoy are primitively stupid examples of it. They didn't make a movie out of the epic, multiple-year-spanning, most awesome campaign you ever played that you tell all your geek friends about and brag about on the message boards every time somebody asks you about your character - they made a movie out of the thrown-together-in-an-afternoon campaign that you put together in highschool because you wanted to try this "Dragons and Dungeons" thing. Sure, playing the D&D movie might have been all right fun for an afternoon, but it was so shallow and juvenile and intent on living up to the stereotype (look! An elf and a thief and a wizard! Oh, and a beholder - they're in that monster book thingy you all like!) that it would hardly be satisfying for anybody who likes a more in-depth game*. The only real plus side was that Jeremy Irons overacted with such malicious glee, I couldn't help but laugh. The D&D movie (first one; haven't seen the second one) suffered from the feeling that it was never made for fantasy fans - anybody with any experience in the genre knows we can have better (look at LotR, frechrissakes - I didn't even like it that much, but I can at least recognise a real epic when I see it!) - but wasn't really made for the mainstream. I don't know about other here, but to me, the whole thing felt like a half-assed joke, made by the kind of people who still giggle at gamers from behind their "real hobbies". So as you see, there are lots of reasons, and ANYTHING can be made into a TV series, but its just the DRAMA that people want. People are more drawn to drama than action, its just the way it is. Thats why Titanic and other movies are higher sellers than most of Arnold Swartzeneggars films combined. I think the fundamental key to fantasy (or any good "epic" film) is the balance of drama and action. Action without drama is meaningless - I'll buy the computer game, kthx - but drama without action is tiresome and tedious - stress relief mandates a good arse-kicking now and then. I also think that the most important part of any film (assuming it isn't trying to be avante-garde arthouse wank) is the characters; there aren't really any "new" plotlines, and often the strength of a story is in how it involves certain fundamental ideas or events that can be found in just about every piece of popular literature out there. Stories like this, in my opinion, become so entertaining because they feature characters the audience likes. In the fantasy genre, where there are so very many stories that just reduce down to "find the <thingthatisnotthering> and take it to <placethatisnotmordor> to save <worldthatisnotmiddleearth>", the characters are where you need to shine. Meh, enough with my ranting. I have some very strong opinions on this - feel free to disagree, it's obviously just opinion. (*which I would venture to say is the majority, though certainly not the whole)
Scolin 01-24-06, 09:15 PM	Just my two cents about the topic. Dungeons and dragons had an animated tv series for children back in 1983 some of you might remember it may not, oh well. But the piont is that it has been tried and the series only went for three series. Pretty nice I think, at lease for D&Ds perspective. The idea for a D&D tv show would be nice but it would not last long. As Metallica Says ,"Sad But True!!!"
Rory 01-29-06, 10:59 PM	A D&D TV show would do well if the production quality and writing was as good as Lost. TV is so saturated the niches are starting to strive. Producers are looking for concpets with an audiance base.
The Grig Fiddler 01-30-06, 12:38 AM	I was really thinking and the point has been made several times on this thread already but dont give the show the title D&D call it Ebberon or something. Really also with a good story and some good animation adult swim would probly jump at this. I dont know about everyone else but I would much rather watch Ebberon or Forgotten Realms than Inuyasha or Ghost in the Shell or Full Metal Alchemist. I like anime but alot of it is just chessy. Seriously if anyone has read any Salvatore or the War of the Spider Queen series those books prove to me that the story could be done great then the real problem would be animation. I kind of went into a mini rant but I would love to see some D&D TV P.S. BTW Im not a Drizzt fanboy.
Braids 01-30-06, 01:13 AM	I would love to see a D&D based series. And I think Eberron would be the best setting for it. Partially because when I think of Eberron games they seem more like episodes of a T.V. show than the high fantasy stories of FR. I don’t think FR would be a good idea and for one reason…Dark Elves! Somebody out there would see a dark elf, how they act and what other races think of them and suddenly they’d be leading a buncha people against the racist T.V. show. I’m not saying dark elves are like black people, I’m just saying that somebody will see the dark skin and think it’s supposed to represent black people. [I’v already seen it happen here on the forums a couple times.]
Ranger REG 01-30-06, 02:32 AM	Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of Eberron ... yet and possibly ever. Deep in my heart, I can see Greyhawk resurrect into a TV series, or Forgotten Realm/Faerun cross over to the next medium.
The Grig Fiddler 01-30-06, 03:16 AM	I really like the story elements of Ebberon,but to be honest I really dont like the illustrations. The story would be cool for a show just dont make it look like the books. Im not against all of the pictures form Ebberon stuff just alot of it. Im just thanking Ilmater no one flamed me for insulting Inuyasha.
deusxmachina 01-30-06, 04:55 AM	#1. When a D&D type movie comes out, it generally bombs. Why? Because all they are doing is putting Person A in Group A to Fight Evil Generic Warlord/Wizard. This flops, all the time. There is usually no character development. The writing is usually very crappy. The actors are usually crappy as well. #2. Look at all the great movies, Lord of the Rings, Excalibur, etc.. they all had character development, great writers, great actors, and even though they where EXACTLY what D&D is (just varied settings) they aren't labeled as D&D type movies. They are labeled as Fantasy/Sci-Fi movies and are huge budget and an ace-in-the-hole to begin with. And there it is in a nutshell. D&D has done either poorly or so-so because, frankly, the productions have stunk. It's like if the X-men movies would have bombed -- there is no way anyone could have blamed the background material because there is 50 years of it to pick and choose storylines from. A lot of the old X-men stories are gold. Most movies suck nowadays, plain and simple. Xena was a heck of a show. Yeah, call it corny at times and whatever else, but, overall, it was a good show, and had some of the best set and costume designs going. It was headed by Sam Raimi, who then went on to do the Spiderman movies, so obviously Xena was in good hands at the time. Most movies and TV shows are done by hacks who got their jobs by knowing someone who knows someone, and most of these people have no business stepping within 10 feet of a camera or script. Ever see Kevin Smith's "An Evening with Kevin Smith" or whatever it's called DVD where he speaks in front of colleges for three hours? He tells the story of meeting a bigtime producer, (Jerry Bruckheimer, I think), when he was working on the Superman movie script. Bruckheimer simply had no clue about what makes Superman special. It's a first-hand account of how clueless people who work on this stuff really are. They have no passion for it. There is so much D&D history to pick and choose storylines from that anyone who makes a bomb just plain doesn't know how to make a movie.
Fox Lee 01-30-06, 06:35 PM	Sorry, triple-post.
Fox Lee 01-30-06, 07:05 PM	Sorry, triple-post.
Fox Lee 01-30-06, 08:56 PM	Dungeons and dragons had an animated tv series for children back in 1983 some of you might remember it may not, oh well. But the piont is that it has been tried and the series only went for three series. That was because it was horrible. The whole thing was lame, even if we set aside the arse-ugly character design that was par for the era. Unless your name is CS Lewis and you have already won the hearts of two or three generations of children, it's time to put down the "everyday people sucked into another world!" plot. It's old, it's tired, it's freaking boring. And in most cases, it utterly prevents the series from feeling like D&D, since all it does is put non-fantasy characters in a fantasy setting - it's jarring and ugly and amateurish. And it leaves out one of the most interesting things about D&D - the other races and cultures present in the world. If nothing else, the fans want elves (especially the fangirls, and any fantasy producer should seize that market while they can!). The characters were shallow and obnoxious. Not to mention groan-worthy in how stereotypical they were (the girl is the mage, and her obligatory one magic item gives her... invisibility! Of course!*), but that's another product of the era. Also, the actual inclusion of the D&D game, and Dungeon Master as a horribly ill-conceived character, totally undermined what D&D is supposed to be in actual practice. This was also felt in the use of actual rules and class names and whatnot from the game - that sort of thing needs to be subtle in-jokes that will make you chuckle if you know the system, not blatant and serious. Assuming that the hypothetical series/film is supposed to be a vaguely serious story (rather than a parodic comedy, which certainly has its place) I think it's pretty safe to say that gamers want a show about what's in the game, not about the system and the people playing it. I mean, geez, we don't get together once a week to pretend we're all nerds who pretend to be fantasy characters :rolleyes: (*Yes, I know there were two girls. But one of them was also the token black person, so she doesn't count :p)
Ranger REG 01-30-06, 09:23 PM	Unless your name is CS Lewis and you have already won the hearts of two or three generations of children, it's time to put down the "everyday people sucked into another world!" plot. It's old, it's tired, it's freaking boring. And in most cases, it utterly prevents the series from feeling like D&D, since all it does is put non-fantasy characters in a fantasy setting - it's jarring and ugly and amateurish. I guess you're not a fan of the Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series, too. :P And it leaves out one of the most interesting things about D&D - the other races and cultures present in the world. If nothing else, the fans want elves (especially the fangirls, and any fantasy producer should seize that market while they can!). Well, I don't know if elves are icons exclusive to D&D, as LOTR have already shown. Heh. :smirk: But if you want the fantasy version of "Featured Alien of the Week" element, you're gonna need a party of traveling adventurers (i.e., the main cast), a setting for them to travel and explore, and stories that are as good as telling it over a campfire. Go with Greyhawk, find actors who resembles Regdar, Mialee, Lidda, etc., and give a call to any directors interested in helming one or two episodes (e.g., Joss Whedon).
deusxmachina 01-31-06, 12:41 AM	That was because it was horrible. The whole thing was lame, even if we set aside the arse-ugly character design that was par for the era. The D&D cartoon shined when it dropped the corny crap and took a dramatic turn that helped you take the show seriously. If there had been more episodes like (off the top of my head) "The Dragon's Graveyard" and that one with the fallen Paladin guy, the series might have lasted a good bit longer. It's too bad lots of adults think "kids" means "kiddie" and write as if they are only catering to five-year-olds. I watched all the episodes again some months back. Half were corny and whiney, but the other half there's some good stuff there. Uni is the Jar Jar Binks of D&D.
red_scare87 01-31-06, 01:03 AM	When I say "stylish action", I mean style, and action. He is obsessed with it. Samurai Jack was basically style and action. A great deal of sword slashing, with long pauses to build up tension. Very little dialog. To be fair the dialog is pretty good. But not much of it, a small intermission before crazy melee breaks out. All of his work bears a signature, if you have seen some of what he does, you can recognize it again. There are many episodes of Samurai Jack that are almost nothing but dialogue. Take the episode where Aku sits down and tells stories to the children in mock-fairytale fashion. This episode is mostly dialogue and it's one of my favorites (Though, any episode with Aku being silly I like a lot). Anyway, there are many other episodes I remember that aren't very "Hack n' Slash". Though, even if he made a fantasy series that was mostly ridiculous fight scenes with a good underlying story I would be happy. No, D&D isn't all about the combat, but I think that Genndy Tartakovsky's style would still do well in a fantasy setting. He also doesnt know how to hold back. If you watched clone wars first before any star wars movie you would be wondering why Mace or Yoda or Obi Wan dont simply destroy the entire droid army by their lonesome. The vision that Lucas had for the movie could never keep up with Genddy. I think less cheesy dialogue written by Lucas would've made for better movies if you ask me. ;) And just because I like to say Gravy Tartersauce doesnt mean I have good taste. Gravy and tartersauce are just funny words, like duck and taco. And duck taco. mmmmm duck taco... :D
Ranger REG 01-31-06, 03:25 AM	mmmmm duck taco... :D Funny, but it actually tastes good. But I like kalua pork taco better.
Rory 01-31-06, 06:16 PM	I was really thinking and the point has been made several times on this thread already but dont give the show the title D&D call it Ebberon or something. Really also with a good story and some good animation adult swim would probly jump at this. I dont know about everyone else but I would much rather watch Ebberon or Forgotten Realms than Inuyasha or Ghost in the Shell or Full Metal Alchemist. I like anime but alot of it is just chessy. Seriously if anyone has read any Salvatore or the War of the Spider Queen series those books prove to me that the story could be done great then the real problem would be animation. I kind of went into a mini rant but I would love to see some D&D TV P.S. BTW Im not a Drizzt fanboy. I was just talking about how War of the Spider Queen would make a great animation cartoon on the Candlekeep forums.
sciencemile 01-31-06, 06:50 PM	<evil laugh> I found the greatest Dnd cartoon! Not sure if they still make new ones, but it shows on AZN. History of the Lodoss Wars is the best possible combination of Dnd and Anime. Though, maybe this isn't exactly what you were looking for. :D :D
The Grig Fiddler 01-31-06, 11:48 PM	I was just talking about how War of the Spider Queen would make a great animation cartoon on the Candlekeep forums. Now heres a man/woman with some taste. Just playing everybody but it really would make one hell of a show.
Ranger REG 02-01-06, 03:48 AM	<evil laugh> I found the greatest Dnd cartoon! Not sure if they still make new ones, but it shows on AZN. History of the Lodoss Wars is the best possible combination of Dnd and Anime. Though, maybe this isn't exactly what you were looking for. :D :D Meh. Old news. ;) There are two version of the Lodoss Wars, available on DVDs.
Fox Lee 02-01-06, 07:56 PM	I was just talking about how War of the Spider Queen would make a great animation cartoon on the Candlekeep forums. Dude, no. Faerun drow are a horrible thing to include in a modern series - they are an insult to women everywhere (don't make me post the picture again!), and aside from being way too sl*tty for any show even vaguely kid-oriented, are a horrible face to present to those who don't know D&D. Don't get me wrong - if we ever wanted something to reinforce the stereotype of gamers being socially inept, over-sexed but under-laid, horrendously sexist twerps, drow are the perfect place to start. But with a new TV series or movie, we have the chance to put forward a fresh face for D&D - one that can be free of idiotic baggage like dark elf wh*res.
Ranger REG 02-01-06, 09:20 PM	we have the chance to put forward a fresh face for D&D - one that can be free of idiotic baggage like dark elf wh*res. Oh, gawd. By "fresh face" I hope you do not mean "created in the image of Disney." :P
Fox Lee 02-02-06, 12:51 AM	Oh, gawd. By "fresh face" I hope you do not mean "created in the image of Disney." Good lordy, no XP Every cartoon they make lately is horrible - they lost their talent a long time ago. Nossir, I just mean "free of all the 'I put on my robe and wizard hat' and 'if there are any chicks in the bar I'm going to do them!' baggage" :p
Ranger REG 02-02-06, 03:02 AM	Good lordy, no XP Every cartoon they make lately is horrible - they lost their talent a long time ago. Talent, perhaps, but I was actually referring to their iron-fisted standard decency policy. :devil: Nossir, I just mean "free of all the 'I put on my robe and wizard hat' and 'if there are any chicks in the bar I'm going to do them!' baggage" :p :uh-huh: And what is so wrong with a little innuendo? ;)
Rory 02-02-06, 03:12 AM	Dude, no. Faerun drow are a horrible thing to include in a modern series - they are an insult to women everywhere (don't make me post the picture again!), and aside from being way too sl*tty for any show even vaguely kid-oriented, are a horrible face to present to those who don't know D&D. Don't get me wrong - if we ever wanted something to reinforce the stereotype of gamers being socially inept, over-sexed but under-laid, horrendously sexist twerps, drow are the perfect place to start. But with a new TV series or movie, we have the chance to put forward a fresh face for D&D - one that can be free of idiotic baggage like dark elf wh*res. For D&D to pierce the main stream it must stop being defeatist, apologetic, politically correct and more important then anything they should not market to kids. Dissolution is a great story for a late night Cable anime. Other then the women who talk about fornicating with their slave masseuses the Drow are not that promiscuous in the Novel and the women are the pimps not the wh*res. If anything they present a strong image for women with the way they run things. Matter of fact the baddest b!tch in any FR novel I ever read was in Dissolution. Put this show on Cable before or after South Park and it would get huge ratings. Every stoner would love the mushroom gardens and phosphorescent lights. Every wrestling/Dragon Ball fan would love the battle, every D&D fan would love the fact that the show is so unabridged, and every sadistic A-hole would love the moral ambiguity. Also any face D&D puts out there that is not a Lotr clone will be a fresh face. Nothing would be fresher then a serious cartoon in Menzoberranzan. When have we seen anything like that before.
Auburn 02-03-06, 01:16 AM	I would love to see a D&D based series. And I think Eberron would be the best setting for it. Partially because when I think of Eberron games they seem more like episodes of a T.V. show than the high fantasy stories of FR. I don’t think FR would be a good idea and for one reason…Dark Elves! Somebody out there would see a dark elf, how they act and what other races think of them and suddenly they’d be leading a buncha people against the racist T.V. show. I’m not saying dark elves are like black people, I’m just saying that somebody will see the dark skin and think it’s supposed to represent black people. [I’v already seen it happen here on the forums a couple times.] Then show them some svirfnebli and black humans a few episodes or a season before you introduce duergar and drow. Critics couldn't cry racism then.
MessiahOmega 02-03-06, 04:38 AM	For D&D to pierce the main stream it must stop being defeatist, apologetic, politically correct and more important then anything they should not market to kids. Dissolution is a great story for a late night Cable anime. Other then the women who talk about fornicating with their slave masseuses the Drow are not that promiscuous in the Novel and the women are the pimps not the wh*res. If anything they present a strong image for women with the way they run things. Matter of fact the baddest b!tch in any FR novel I ever read was in Dissolution. Put this show on Cable before or after South Park and it would get huge ratings. Every stoner would love the mushroom gardens and phosphorescent lights. Every wrestling/Dragon Ball fan would love the battle, every D&D fan would love the fact that the show is so unabridged, and every sadistic A-hole would love the moral ambiguity. Also any face D&D puts out there that is not a Lotr clone will be a fresh face. Nothing would be fresher then a serious cartoon in Menzoberranzan. When have we seen anything like that before. DAMN STRAIGHT! :clap: :w00t: Bring it on. Its time for dnd to grow up, i reckon. I mean, the novels arn't really ment for kids, why should a show be?
Brastan 02-03-06, 11:59 AM	There's nothing like another flop to make people say "we can do this better" the sad part is we're likely right. We do it better on a weekly, biweekly, or monthly basis. Granted the target audience is smaller and tailored to our individual groups but D&D fan-base has some very talented and creative people. My mussing about a D&D TV show is less about the setting and more about the characters. The protagonists need to be well round and deep. They also need to play off each other. As a name can make or break a show before it starts I'll throw one out. I used this when I was trying to run a d20 BESM fantasy mini-campaign. Plunder Platoon The focus was about dungeon delving but with the ultimate goal of attaining fame, fortune, and a noble title. D&D would be a style of the show not the plot.
red_scare87 02-03-06, 12:51 PM	The focus was about dungeon delving but with the ultimate goal of attaining fame, fortune, and a noble title. D&D would be a style of the show not the plot. Well of course it would only be the style of the show because there is no one "D&D plot". What it would be is a fantasy show using D&D monsters/character types etc. You're right though, character development would have to be important. What I say should be done is some production company gets a bunch of typical D&D groups together to play once/week in different types of campaigns and let it develop naturally from real D&D play. Then, the characters and plot from one group would become the show. I still think it should definitely be animated...
Ranger REG 02-03-06, 07:03 PM	My mussing about a D&D TV show is less about the setting and more about the characters. The protagonists need to be well round and deep. They also need to play off each other. The obvious way is to inject conflicts within the characters. Like Spock & McCoy, Han & Leia, even Dylan Hunt & Tyr Anasazi, they have a conflict between them even when they're on the same side (for the most part in the latter case). Still, just as important to character and story development, we gamers are going to pay attention to details. That's where the setting comes in. It sets the atmosphere for the cast of character to interact with the environment, including culture and fashion.
Rory 02-04-06, 02:39 AM	^^ Thats why I say Dissolution would be such a great story. There is lots of conflicts within the characters who are on the same side. Also in America we tend to lump teenagers with kids. The best way to market to kids is to not market to kids If you are going to call a 12-17 year old a kid.
Ranger REG 02-04-06, 03:08 AM	^^ Thats why I say Dissolution would be such a great story. There is lots of conflicts within the characters who are on the same side. Also in America we tend to lump teenagers with kids. The best way to market to kids is to not market to kids If you are going to call a 12-17 year old a kid. Can you give me a synopsis of what that story is about? I've had my hunch but I want to be sure.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 02-04-06, 03:46 AM	I'm going to have to say that FR would be pretty bad for a D&D series. Let's face it... the only good that would come from a Forgotten Realms series would be that being sick and tired of scimitar-weilding Drow and the ham-handed walking Deus ex Machina that is Elminster would spread beyond D&D tables. Greyhawk would be marginally better, but it should be called Middle Oerth. Spelljammer? How about something... y'know... Fantasy? Planescape could be fine, but since a typical D&D party doesn't have many redshirts to kill off, the characters would have to be too powerful to relate to. Rokugan would be far too esoteric. I wouldn't be surprised at all if half the people reading this post think "wtf is Rokugan?" Homebrew? Sorry, but if you're going to make a D&D TV series, why bother calling it D&D if it's going to be in a homebrew setting? The only difference between a D&D campaign in a homebrew setting and a GURPS campaign in a homebrew setting is the game mechanics... and die rolls don't transfer over to TV (at least, not unless we want an Order of the Stick TV show). Eberron isn't without its problems, but it has more going for it than any other setting. -The Excoriate dragonmarked character is a commonly ripped off starting point, but depending on the house the character belongs to it can be more or less completely different from a certain Lei no-longer-D'Cannith. -It has no built-in Deus ex Machina. -It is a setting unlike any other. Faerun is basically Europe with magic, Oerth is Middle Earth, spelljamming is just like any other space opera out there (with a strong dose of Jack Vance tossed in), and Rokugan is repeated ad nauseum in anime anyways. Planescape is the only other one that compares on this measure. -The setting has a lot of magic (like all of the above), but the characters in it don't need to be so powerful that you can't identify with them just to make the setting feel magical. If you want to do that just stop within sight of Argonth, the Mournlands, Sharn, any part of Reidra or Argonessen, or Aundair. -It was made to capture the feel of TV and cinema in the setting. This lends itself well to episodic campaigns with broad storylines, and also means it is ideally suited for a TV series. An animated series would be great, but not in the style of Samurai Jack. Get the animators behind Ghost in the Shell on it, or maybe use the artistic style of some comic books today. Compare the art from Infinite Crisis and compare it to, say, Justice League and you'll see what I mean. One is splendidly and lovingly drawn... the other, by comparison, seems rushed. One is richly shaded and rendered so as to see almost real, while the other comes off as "basic" and relies on stark differences like Samurai Jack.
Delestial 02-04-06, 02:53 PM	and Rokugan is repeated ad nauseum in anime anyways. Actually, I'd disagree on this point. Just because Rokugan is set in a feudal Japan setting doesn't mean it would be a total repeat of other shows that take place in a feudal Japan setting.
The Grig Fiddler 02-04-06, 03:22 PM	I have two thoughts on the setting seeing as how Ive only used two of them Ebberon and Forgotten Realms. For a live action show like hercules or something use FR. For an animated show use Ebberon.
Vagrond 02-04-06, 07:30 PM	If they could a particular famous DnD player on board, who knows? It is true that all the campaign settings have so much story in them though, the writers would have to be skilled to remain true to the setting without confusing the audience. Dude, no. Faerun drow are a horrible thing to include in a modern series - they are an insult to women everywhere (don't make me post the picture again!), and aside from being way too sl*tty for any show even vaguely kid-oriented, are a horrible face to present to those who don't know D&D. Don't get me wrong - if we ever wanted something to reinforce the stereotype of gamers being socially inept, over-sexed but under-laid, horrendously sexist twerps, drow are the perfect place to start. Better still: Drow with the lichloved feat. Phoaar!
Ranger REG 02-04-06, 07:45 PM	I'm going to have to say that FR would be pretty bad for a D&D series. Let's face it... the only good that would come from a Forgotten Realms series would be that being sick and tired of scimitar-weilding Drow and the ham-handed walking Deus ex Machina that is Elminster would spread beyond D&D tables. And yet I can't help but to disagree with you on that particular premise. Greyhawk would be marginally better, but it should be called Middle Oerth. Probably because in my eyes, I have a blank slate and no history of playing that setting. Fans of GH are divided between Gygaxs and Sargent's versions. Rokugan would be far too esoteric. I wouldn't be surprised at all if half the people reading this post think "wtf is Rokugan?" Probably because they never pick up Oriental Adventures, which features a culture alien to them, even by Greyhawk standard?
scienceman47 02-05-06, 03:30 AM	An animated series would be great, but not in the style of Samurai Jack. Get the animators behind Ghost in the Shell on it, or maybe use the artistic style of some comic books today. Compare the art from Infinite Crisis and compare it to, say, Justice League and you'll see what I mean. One is splendidly and lovingly drawn... the other, by comparison, seems rushed. One is richly shaded and rendered so as to see almost real, while the other comes off as "basic" and relies on stark differences like Samurai Jack. Ghost in the shell seems like a great idea. They can manage the characters in a way that really will cast a positive image on DnD, instead of "Attack trolls and steal a treasure box" kinda stuff.
Rory 02-05-06, 05:29 PM	Can you give me a synopsis of what that story is about? I've had my hunch but I want to be sure. I have only read the first book of the six and it was a lot better then I thought it would be. With RA Salvatores name on it I assumed he was the author I did not want to go through another Legacy War. Based on that I avoided the War of the Spider Queen novels until my gf bought the first one for one of my Christmas presents. Dissolution has a plot that resembles a soap opera, which one of many reasons why it would be perfect for a late night cartoon series. minor *Spoilers* Its difficult to give a synopsis because the plot is so basic. Followers of Lloth have lost their divine magic while at the same time a powerful being of the underdark is influencing a revolt lead by rogue males, and the many slavees/ “undercreatures” of Menzoberranzan. What really makes the novel work is the way the characters handle the circumstances they are dealt. The novel follows many characters with the main three being the wizard who was given the task to find the missing rogue males, his partner, and a high priestess that’s constantly trying to avoid assassination attempts form the cities archmage and figure out why she and everyone else has lost divine magic. It’s a well written character drama that that does a heck of a job of creating the cool and memorable moment that would translate into the cool scene if it was animated. You have stuff like a shackled wizard escaping by casting a spell with his feet, a Drow priestess putting a crossbow bolt in the forehead of her insolent lieutenant, a Drow Priestess being stripped, fondled and killed by a pack of kobolds, I could go on and on but I dont want to give away too much. You combine Ghost in the Shell production with the covers artist's (Brom) influence and you have the best show on Cable.
Fox Lee 02-05-06, 05:45 PM	Other then the women who talk about fornicating with their slave masseuses the Drow are not that promiscuous in the Novel and the women are the pimps not the wh*res. If anything they present a strong image for women with the way they run things. This is patently untrue. The drow are a pathetically sad excuse for "strong" women, they always have been (I speak about their portrayal in adventures and such as much as literature - what they're like in the game means more to me than what they're like in the books, even though I've not seen antything in the books to make me think any better of them). I don't mind promiscuous women - I'm highly in favour of females who are sexually confident and know what they want. However, that's what the drow should have been, not what they are (http://hypercrescendo.net/foxlee/fls/bmg/art/orig/misc/ifiwereadrow.png).
Rory 02-05-06, 07:07 PM	This is patently untrue. The drow are a pathetically sad excuse for "strong" women, they always have been (I speak about their portrayal in adventures and such as much as literature - what they're like in the game means more to me than what they're like in the books, even though I've not seen antything in the books to make me think any better of them). I don't mind promiscuous women - I'm highly in favour of females who are sexually confident and know what they want. However, that's what the drow should have been, not what they are (http://hypercrescendo.net/foxlee/fls/bmg/art/orig/misc/ifiwereadrow.png). I think your rant is actually pretty sensible. When I first read it, it seemed like you were overanalyzing things too much but honestly that’s a somewhat accurate assessment of Drow portrayal. I never gave it much thought because there are other chauvinist depictions that bother me far more then the cover of Pools of Darkness, or the way Drow women melt when they are around Arch mages, demons, and beholders. What I don’t understand is why would you not want a mainstream depiction that dispels everything you are ranting about? Matter of fact the novel even explains why so many Drow males have an allegiance to their society and its not out of fear.
Angus Cotton 02-05-06, 07:11 PM	I'm wondering why you are suggesting we put it on the SCI-FI channel. Is it less likely to be cancelled on that network than on any of the four cable-free major networks? YES. One of my very favorite shows of all time, Space: Above and Beyond was cancelled mid-season and replaced with Homeboys in Outerspace by FOX in the mid-90s. One was a really well written and well acted show with character depth and so-so effects...the replacement was a joke. I think, in FOX's mind, they were replacing one sci-fi show with another..maybe one more ethinic...but really in the end, I don't think they knew what they were doing or what they had.
cat_god 02-05-06, 07:29 PM	Record of Lodoss War is more D&D than the first movie. It's awsome! But, I think an animated series in the FR (my favorite Cs, I'll admit.) would rock. Besides, you don't need to have Elminster in the series. After all, the back pages of the FRCS say to make the PC's the main characters. Just do the same thing with the animated series, perhaps with a famous character popping in occasionally, and you'll hve an excellent show. BTW, what is up with the anti-Drow stuff? I enjoy the Drizzt novels, and really anything Drow. Dear god, I hope I don't sound like a fan-boy.
Zaxon D'Mir 02-05-06, 11:05 PM	YES. One of my very favorite shows of all time, Space: Above and Beyond was cancelled mid-season and replaced with Homeboys in Outerspace by FOX in the mid-90s. One was a really well written and well acted show with character depth and so-so effects...the replacement was a joke. I think, in FOX's mind, they were replacing one sci-fi show with another..maybe one more ethinic...but really in the end, I don't think they knew what they were doing or what they had. AMEN! Space: Above and Beyond was a good show. The season before that CBS had a so-so show called Space Rangers. It was a pre-Firefly/Babylon 5 TV show that had generic special effects and half-ass acting but still had several memorable episodes out of the perhaps 10 before it was yanked. And now where the hell is Threshold?!! I watched two episodes of the show and was hooked. Now I read on the in-the-know sites that it has been cancelled! That blows! The new Entertainment Weekly has a review of the remade Battlestar Galactica on Sci Fi and hailed it as the "new thing" in sci fi. So now we'll see a bunch of CRAP tarted up to look like BS (and I don't mean Battlestar Galactica). But, remember guys the Star Wars TV show is due shortly. And for those of you who have not heard of it go check out the Star Wars fan sites for more info. From what I've read it should be awesome - Kevin Smith (Silent Bob) directed and helped write the first three episodes.