Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dunamin 08-15-06, 06:58 AM	Well, sort of. Except that it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with witnesses. PCs make enemies. Eventually, some of those that survive might realize that it’s much easier to target the PCs relatives and other loved ones. Terrorism and assassination is much easier accomplished in a fantasy world with monsters and magic (particularly with divinations and teleportation), so what are the best ways for PCs to prevent grief and tragedy? I’m looking for ideas applicable at various PC levels, so economic and magical availability is taken into account. Keep in mind that many PC families might be simple farmers, who live near a village with barely any protection, and with no desire to accept defensive measures if it changes their way of living drastically. And even if they were willing to have the walls and roof of their homes (and possibly carriage?) inlaid with lead to protect from scrying and the like (an immensely expensive task, I figure), it's far from fool-proof and there are still more conventional means to track people in D&D. The refuge spell is an obvious option. If a PC can befriend a cleric 13+ who serves in a temple with reasonable security, he can probably agree to allow a refuge object given to someone very close to the PC to transport back to the asylum of the temple. It would cost 2410 gp per person (910 gp for spellcasting and 1500 gp for material components), and won’t protect against a skilful assassin (not necessarily the prestige class) that can take out a low-level character before he/she has a round to react, but it’s still something. This option is definitely not likely to be available at low levels, but I figure at low levels it’s even more unlikely that PCs will have enemies that go to lengths to assassinate/terrorize the PCs’ close relations. Other ideas? Please comment on availability, complications and loose ends.
Seeker95 08-15-06, 09:10 AM	Please consider this wonderful idea snagged as an integral part of my next campaign. :tiphat:
Sarella Starshine 08-15-06, 10:26 AM	very nice, just don't over use it because you will soon have heroes that are orphans and refuse to have love interests P
DrakoShade 08-15-06, 08:09 PM	I've had two characters kill their own families before leaving home, just so that others wouldn't learn anything embarassing (like their middle names or whatever). Obviously, they were the evil ones. I've never had a CN character care one way or the other about his family, or actually manage to fall in love... so no problems there, except a resourceful enemy knowing his full name. As for good characters... meh. Adventure somewhere not on the same continent where your family is.
DwarvinJedi 08-15-06, 08:38 PM	Permanent Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum surrounded(on ALL SIDES, even underneath) with Permanent Walls of Force, all within your own private demiplace(via the genesis spell), ok the last one is a little extra, but the Private Sanctum prevents scrying within the walls of the fortress and the walls protect against ethereal travelers. Though that is a high level option. Another tip would be not to tell the villian your name, so they can't easily hunt down blood relatives
Pandaemoni 08-15-06, 08:47 PM	There are very limited options to protect those sorts of NPCs. The only one usable at low level is to pay or otherwise get some local warrior to look after your family, but who knows if he is trustworthy? At 6th level and higher you could take the leadership feat and rotate a small group of your followers into "guard duty." For really low rent solutions, you could buy your family a trained guard dog (or other more impressive animal, as your wealth permits). The problem with that is that many (perhaps most) DMs will ignore such protectors is the plot demands your family be killed, and that such a guard may not be needed if the plot merely demands "a close call." It is a very impartial DM who will run a "behind the scenes" combat between NPC attackers and NPC defenders just to be fair to the PC's defensive efforts.
Dunamin 08-16-06, 09:16 AM	Thank you all for kind words and suggestions. I still would like to hear any other ideas you might have. Permanent Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum surrounded(on ALL SIDES, even underneath) with Permanent Walls of Force, all within your own private demiplace(via the genesis spell), ok the last one is a little extra, but the Private Sanctum prevents scrying within the walls of the fortress and the walls protect against ethereal travelers. Though that is a high level option. Sure is :D. Good luck talking anybody into not only leaving their home and country, but even their own world to live a life of imprisonment and probably little to no outside contact. Just for fun, I calculated a little on the costs: 10 5th lvl spells * 450 gp/spell + 5 permanency spells * 2500 xp/spell * 5 gp/xp = 67k gp. (I made 4 walls of force forming a pyramid, instead of 6 walls forming a cube) Dunno about that genesis spell – it’s not core, and if you have access to 9th level magic and more than 67k to spare, there are far better options with those resources (I figure a cleverly worded wish could ensure reasonable protection to combine refuge and contingency-like effects). For high-level play I suggest a refuge object as noted before, and a bodyguard with skills or gear to recognise a threat before it gets within lethal proximity of his client. Than you make sure the client is transported to a safe hideout, while you deal with tracking and punishing the transgressors. Another tip would be not to tell the villian your name, so they can't easily hunt down blood relatives True, though names are easily gained with divinations. It’s common sense not to give your enemies any information about you, if you can avoid it. However, one piece of info that is a good idea to spread around, is how successful you’ve been in the past to track down your enemies and make sure they won’t ever bother you again. That should deter many potential plotters. The problem with that is that many (perhaps most) DMs will ignore such protectors is the plot demands your family be killed, and that such a guard may not be needed if the plot merely demands "a close call." It is a very impartial DM who will run a "behind the scenes" combat between NPC attackers and NPC defenders just to be fair to the PC's defensive efforts. Having a plot “demand” that a PC family unavoidably is killed is bad campaign structuring, in my opinion, unless it’s really integral to furthering the plot. Even so, the PCs should, as always, believe that they can effect the game world, so the considerations presented here still apply in the case of a rail-road plot. If attackers are likely to succeed, the PCs can still gain something by hiring guards. Sure, with speak with animals, speak with plants and stone tell, the PCs could gain very basic descriptions of the attackers, but a guard with a few levels might recognise the combat gear, combat styles, some defensive & offensive capabilities and general strategy that the attackers employed. Even if he was left in less than healthy condition, information might still be gained through speak with dead, remove paralysis, stone to flesh, etc. That’s information that can be used to track down the attackers and those they work for.
Grandpa Gamer 08-16-06, 11:55 PM	I ran a Forgotten Realms campaign where I had taken one character's parents, and made them retired Harpers, living under assumed names to hide from the Dragon Cult. A "vision" in the middle of the night of your childhood home in flames - when you get there, all that's left is smoldering ruins, and your parents are missing! Tally-Ho!
Dunamin 08-26-06, 04:40 AM	I still would like to hear any other ideas you might have. :bump:
hiryuu 08-26-06, 07:20 PM	And this is why smart villains don't mess with a PC's family. He might threaten them, but he won't actually do anything about it (of course, your PCs and your players don't have to know that). Watch them use up their resources needlessly and laugh. The smart villain knows that if he ever hurts a hero's family or loved ones in any way, it's going to do nothing but bite him in the rear later on, and in a big way. Tick a hero off too much, and there'sno telling what he'll do. It's like handling a bear. You don't mess with the bear's cubs just because you don't see the mama bear right away, do you?
Alten_Freehands 08-26-06, 10:28 PM	For a great idea to handle it read the Belgariad series by David Eddings. For those of you that have read it know what I'm talking about, if you haven't go read it. It's all about hiding a bloodline for centuries from an insane God. Hopefully I didn't just violate the CoC, if I did I am sorry.
enlightened 08-26-06, 10:37 PM	very nice, just don't over use it because you will soon have heroes that are orphans and refuse to have love interests P You could require that players come up with at least three significant people in their life and require that they include then in their background stories. Even be up front with them that you plan to use them as story hooks and that you would like them to go along with it.
Dunamin 09-08-06, 10:18 AM	Hmm, can't locate the price on lead in any of my D&D books. What would you guys price a 5-ft square lead sheet at? I'm trying to estimate costs for scryproof carriages and safehouses with lead sheets attached to the interiors. Then again, it could also be built directly into the walls - that would be significantly more expensive, but how much?
Tolby 09-08-06, 01:35 PM	Going after A PC's family might not be the thing anyway. Anyone with some reasonable dough can have the family member Raised/regenerated/etc. BBEG go after the NPC it shold be to use them as bait to lure the PC to them.
Dunamin 09-11-06, 02:51 AM	And this is why smart villains don't mess with a PC's family. He might threaten them, but he won't actually do anything about it (of course, your PCs and your players don't have to know that). Watch them use up their resources needlessly and laugh. The smart villain knows that if he ever hurts a hero's family or loved ones in any way, it's going to do nothing but bite him in the rear later on, and in a big way. Tick a hero off too much, and there'sno telling what he'll do. It's like handling a bear. You don't mess with the bear's cubs just because you don't see the mama bear right away, do you? Going after A PC's family might not be the thing anyway. Anyone with some reasonable dough can have the family member Raised/regenerated/etc. BBEG go after the NPC it shold be to use them as bait to lure the PC to them. I agree on the parts that a smart villain frequently can find other uses for PC relations, than killing them off (at least, initially). Indeed, it might often serve him/her better to kidnap them and demand ransom or keep them as information sources on the PCs. Also, it’s probably more a matter of playing style: if you have a young group of players or they just generally don’t want too much of the grim realities of the adventuring lifestyle, endangering the PC relatives are probably not a good idea. However, if you have more mature players or you simply like a more grim style, verisimilitude might be more important – the DM doesn’t pull punches to save you from death, and he doesn’t do so for any other NPCs. As you can guess, my group belongs to the last category. They know that the game world appears as if it doesn’t revolve around them, and that bad things probably happen if they are likely to happen. That makes them feel more immersed and motivated when battling their foes, because they know that failure in important tasks often can have consequences. I disagree on the argument that smart villains shouldn’t “mess with a PC family”, simply because “there’s no telling what the PC can do”. The PC is not all-powerful and the villain knows that. He judges his chances according to his estimate of the PC’s powers - not even always so, he might just behave irrationally. Also, it is not an obstacle to a smart villain, to keep dead relatives dead. If there’s no body, nothing can be done except for a true resurrection, and infiltrating the villain’s hideout to recover the body of a loved one, so that he/she may be raised, can be a thrilling adventure in itself, especially as it may be a race against the clock – can the PCs recover the body and bring it back before it is beyond the cleric’s power to raise him/her? And if the PCs actually do have access to a true resurrection, turning the relative undead is just one of many means of preventing its revival, trapping its soul is another. There are threads around this board concerning keeping the dead in the deadbook. In any case, regardless of whether a villain wants to kidnap or kill a relative, the aforementioned precautions are probably still applicable, as this whole thread is more about precautions, defensive measures, not as much about consequences of failing in defending your charge. And as mentioned, even if a player thinks a DM wouldn’t kill off one of his character’s relatives, his character does not and might be concerned about it, if there are hints at this possibility throughout the campaign. Thank you both for your input. Back to defenses: I’m still looking for ideas and lead pricing. Pretty please?
hiryuu 09-11-06, 03:42 AM	Nearly every villain in the history of ever who has messed with a hero's family finds himself dead twice as fast. I mean, look at what happened to the Green Goblin. It's not that there's no telling what the hero will do, oh no. You know exactly what he'll do. Commit every waking hour to taking you down. The last thing a villain wants is a veritable terminator, even if he is "merely a man." The smart villain knows the hero's not invincible, but he knows he's not invincible, either, and the fast track to finding out how vulnerable you are is to mess with the good guy's family. Evil does not equal stupid. Wasps, for example, aren't invincible, but you don't see me going and beating on the nest when one of them is buzzing near me, that's just stupid. Taking hostages makes you look desperate and foolish and gets people ticked off faster than anything else.
Edge_of_Oblivion 09-11-06, 11:54 AM	Rather than having family members kidnapped/killed by the villain, I much prefer making the family member the villain, myself. Adds an element of "Ah hells, what do I do now??" to the character's RP. :D
Dunamin 09-12-06, 05:57 AM	Nearly every villain in the history of ever who has messed with a hero's family finds himself dead twice as fast. I mean, look at what happened to the Green Goblin. Thank the gods I don’t model my campaigns after Marvel comics, there’d be a mess of clones all over the game world – oh wait, Forgotten Realms already did that with Manshoon ;). On a more serious note, if examples help to serve, think of the Prison Break series – the bad guys are undoubtedly very clever, yet they still make attempt at killing off everybody who means anything to the good guys and are frequently successful. Why? Surely, no one is as dedicated to his cause as the main character Michael – he’s your incarnation of the ultimately committed hero. With a perfect life he has his whole body tattooed with a plan to bust out his brother from jail, robs a bank just to get in the same prison with a 5 year sentence, puts himself in life-threatening situations on a daily basis, which results in having his toes cut off and his flesh burned… I remember one of the best quotes from that series was in one of the last episodes when he said: “You don’t want to find out what I am willing to do, to free my brother” (something like that). The smart villain knows the hero's not invincible, but he knows he's not invincible, either, and the fast track to finding out how vulnerable you are is to mess with the good guy's family. Evil does not equal stupid. Good does not equal stupid either. If the hero picks up clues that his family might be in danger, he’s not going to sit on his ass, rationalizing that if someone messes with his family, they’d only make things worse for themselves, because then he’d turn into a “veritable terminator”. Taking hostages makes you look desperate and foolish and gets people ticked off faster than anything else. Then why do authors do this? Why is kidnapping and threatening the hero’s family a recurring plot event in literature, movies and games? Surely Max Payne became a veritable terminator who dedicated every waking hour to taking down the killer of his family – so why did Hornet have them killed? One of the reasons is that kidnapping or killing the hero’s loved ones is an amazing tool to breed enmity towards the bad guy, to make him truly villainous. In pretty much every good story, someone close to the hero has been harmed. The villain does not perceive the game world to work by adventure realities: that the good guys win in the end, that his despicable acts will breed the animosity that motivates them to bring him to justice. He thinks the world works like our real world – where bad people do bad things, and often get away with it (sad, but true). Wasps, for example, aren't invincible, but you don't see me going and beating on the nest when one of them is buzzing near me, that's just stupid. This logic is flawed. A family of peasants does not equal a nest of wasps. But all of this is consideration applicable to clever, rational, composed villains. Hell, screw it. Make the villain desperate, stupid, psychotic or simply uncaring of the consequences, and no other explanations are needed. A smart demon doesn’t murder your family because it has carefully considered the consequences. It does so, because it thinks it’s fun. Rather than having family members kidnapped/killed by the villain, I much prefer making the family member the villain, myself. Adds an element of "Ah hells, what do I do now??" to the character's RP. :D That is awesome. Kind of makes me think Darth Vader, really. Hmm, actually, that can be readily combined with kidnapping: The PCs old man is a retired veteran fighter. The villain kidnaps him and brainwashes him to his cause. This is unknown to the PCs, who bust in to save him. Having beaten the guardians, they free Fighter Senior, when his son, Fighter Junior, is suddenly hit with a dimensional anchor. The illusion on Fighter Senior falters, revealing him to be fully equipped. He draws his weapon and charges his son... Add light sabers at your discretion.
hiryuu 09-12-06, 01:01 PM	Thank the gods I don’t model my campaigns after Marvel comics, there’d be a mess of clones all over the game world – oh wait, Forgotten Realms already did that with Manshoon ;). "Mervel has the green goblin. Marvel also has clones. Therefore, using the same story technique requires I use clones." Shame on you. "The army uses guns, and bad guys use guns, therefore, the bad guys have nuclear weapons." On a more serious note, if examples help to serve, think of the Prison Break series – the bad guys are undoubtedly very clever, yet they still make attempt at killing off everybody who means anything to the good guys and are frequently successful. Why? Surely, no one is as dedicated to his cause as the main character Michael – he’s your incarnation of the ultimately committed hero. With a perfect life he has his whole body tattooed with a plan to bust out his brother from jail, robs a bank just to get in the same prison with a 5 year sentence, puts himself in life-threatening situations on a daily basis, which results in having his toes cut off and his flesh burned… I remember one of the best quotes from that series was in one of the last episodes when he said: “You don’t want to find out what I am willing to do, to free my brother” (something like that). Thank you for making my point. Good does not equal stupid either. If the hero picks up clues that his family might be in danger, he’s not going to sit on his ass, rationalizing that if someone messes with his family, they’d only make things worse for themselves, because then he’d turn into a “veritable terminator”. I use "veritable terminator because of its single-minded goal, not its immense fortitude. Also, you are making my point again. I just got through saying that the hero is not going to sit on his ass if his family is in trouble. That is the crux of my argument. Logical fallacy: missing the point. Then why do authors do this? Why is kidnapping and threatening the hero’s family a recurring plot event in literature, movies and games? Surely Max Payne became a veritable terminator who dedicated every waking hour to taking down the killer of his family – so why did Hornet have them killed? One of the reasons is that kidnapping or killing the hero’s loved ones is an amazing tool to breed enmity towards the bad guy, to make him truly villainous. In pretty much every good story, someone close to the hero has been harmed. The villain does not perceive the game world to work by adventure realities: that the good guys win in the end, that his despicable acts will breed the animosity that motivates them to bring him to justice. He thinks the world works like our real world – where bad people do bad things, and often get away with it (sad, but true). Taking hostages almost never works. It's something the bad guys do when they're losing, otherwise the police wouldn't spend so much money on negotiators: if it was a foolproof plan, nothing would happen. As to why authors do it. Wanna know the real reason? Here's the secret: 1. To motivate the hero. They want the hero ****** off and out of his chair. They want the good guy to pull out all the stops, make the reader know what the good guy is willing to do in order to take the bad guy down, even if that means hurting a few people. Sometimes the villain does it to set the hero off, so he can compare himself to the good guy. 2. It makes the reader root for the hero more (Ooh, look what Baron McSlimface did, low blow!), since now there's a "good reason" to go after him (as if threatening to slaughter an entire city of innocents, then go on to conquer the world and send everyone to labor camps wasn't a good enough reason already). In this way, it increases tension very simply. 3. It's easy. It's a simple plot device and doesn't require too much work on the author's part. "Well, this villain's really smart, so, instead of a complex thread of events and phony investigation, we'll just kidnap his daughter." 4. People like it. Good or not, people have a sick fascination watching "helpless" individuals being harmed and threatened. This logic is flawed. A family of peasants does not equal a nest of wasps. No, it isn't flawed, unless you think peasants ae unarmed and worthless. How hard is it to have a crossbow? Besides, who says the hero's family are peasants? What if they're mages, or he comes from a line of dirty fighters? On a side note, imagine none of the wasps have stings but there's one that's six feet long and can shoot lasers from its eyes somewhere out there who knows where you live or is perfectly willing to find out, if that helps. But all of this is consideration applicable to clever, rational, composed villains. Hell, screw it. Make the villain desperate, stupid, psychotic or simply uncaring of the consequences, and no other explanations are needed. A smart demon doesn’t murder your family because it has carefully considered the consequences. It does so, because it thinks it’s fun. That is awesome. Kind of makes me think Darth Vader, really. Hmm, actually, that can be readily combined with kidnapping: The PCs old man is a retired veteran fighter. The villain kidnaps him and brainwashes him to his cause. This is unknown to the PCs, who bust in to save him. Having beaten the guardians, they free Fighter Senior, when his son, Fighter Junior, is suddenly hit with a dimensional anchor. The illusion on Fighter Senior falters, revealing him to be fully equipped. He draws his weapon and charges his son... Add light sabers at your discretion. Good. Takes some serious rationale. See what happens when you think over things? Good villains to do this sort of thing with are one-shot villains or villains you don't plan to have far-reaching goals, or have something to prove ("wa ha ha, llok at what you're willing to do to my henchmen just to get at me to rescue your family, we're not so different, you and I!"; just be preapred for that guy to have his rear end thrashed around the block when they finally get to him), or villains like The Joker, who don't want to conquer the world, they just want to mess with the hero's head.
Sinis 09-12-06, 01:36 PM	Protecting your family? The easiest thing for a PC to do is to conceal his name, or, use a pseudonym. After that, things get dicey. Generally, spells are expensive, so that's usually out. The only thing left is for the family to pick up where the PC failed: Changing your names. A clever villain wont be stopped by anything but the most powerful magical protections. I realise this thread is about protecting the NPCs, and this is not intended as a derailment or hijack, but "attacking" a PC's family has a lot of potential. I use "attacking" in quotations, because there are many ways of "using" them. You can play all sorts of nasty tricks on them, to start: Dominate Person. Helm of Alignment Change. Doppelganger hirelings (thoroughly despose of corpse of replaced individual). Vampires. There are plenty of fun things that can be done!
Analysis 09-12-06, 02:01 PM	Taking hostages almost never works. It's something the bad guys do when they're losing, otherwise the police wouldn't spend so much money on negotiators: if it was a foolproof plan, nothing would happen. That said, the matter may be different in other societies or times. Historically, there have been incidences where family members of nobility on the losing side of a war have been kept as "guests" for extended periods of time, in order to control their relatives. I can see where this would work with PCs too. It is not actually hurting their families, it is threatening to do so unless... where, of course, killing off just one or two to show the threat is serious may also work. Is the hero really willing to risk the remaining loved ones just to revenge the one that was tortured to death to set an example?
CryoSilver 09-12-06, 02:36 PM	I enjoy playing rogues, and a fairly common tactic is to simply always wear a disguise and go by a pseudonym. If even your fellow PCs don't really know who you are, it's much harder to target your family.
hiryuu 09-13-06, 03:56 AM	That said, the matter may be different in other societies or times. Historically, there have been incidences where family members of nobility on the losing side of a war have been kept as "guests" for extended periods of time, in order to control their relatives. I can see where this would work with PCs too. It is not actually hurting their families, it is threatening to do so unless... where, of course, killing off just one or two to show the threat is serious may also work. Is the hero really willing to risk the remaining loved ones just to revenge the one that was tortured to death to set an example? Actually, this is a major facet of noble society. Exchanging children was very common, especially in feudal Japan. It wouldn't really work with PCs for a couple of reasons. 1. PCs are not (usually) nobles, they are not fighting a war, and they do not have any other responsibilities (after all, that's why they're adventuring, they're bored and/or they don't want to work somebody's land). This creates a situation where the good guy, in order to get his family back, suddenly "vanishes" for a time. I've played Shadowrun, I know how hard it is to keep kidnapped relatives from ****** off relatives trying to save them (in Shadowrun, you are the guy taking hostages and doing the kidnapping). Remember, PCs in D&D aren't just Harrison Ford. They're a team of Harrison Fords. And we all know what happens when you mess with Harrison Ford. 2. While it creates dramatic tension in novels and films, it doesn't work very well in a D&D storytelling environment, where it simply creates annoyance and makes people want to jump through hoops not to have family at all. Look at how badly people are willing to mangle their backstories to not have families. I point the finger at DMs who have killed, maimed, and kidnapped those families in the past. If people are bending over backwards to create characters that don't have families or well-developed backstories, isn't that a warning sign for anyone as to something you shouldn't be doing anyway? Right? You think that would be a clue as to storytelling devices not to use. I'm not saying you shouldn't use a character's family in game. Certainly you should, and family drama can make excellent adventures, but you also have to remember the time setting of D&D. If someone snags a hero's family or harrasses them, guess whose responsibility it is? The local lord, that's who. And I'm certain he won't take kindly to Henchworth McHenchman coming onto his land and messing with his subjects. Heck, he might hire adventurers (not the PCs, mind you, who are "away on business") to get Baron Darkness to stop messing with his people and his land. Heck, in that time period, that's an act of war.
Trevan0 09-13-06, 04:08 AM	It always tickles me whenever I think about how a high level cleric would explain what happened to his mother after resurrecting her. 20th level Cleric, Bob, True Ressurrects his Mother. Bob: Sorry mom, the bad guys got you. Mom: Well, just don't let it happen again. Remember, your brother's birthday is coming up soon. You remember what happened last time right? Bob: The mind flayers weren't my fault! Mom: Son, you have to learn to accept responsibility! *smack* Now i'm going back to the farm. Bob: But you can't! There's a Red Dragon out there burninating the land and eating all the people! Mom: I have to Bob! Those carrots don't grow themselves! Now remember to go give Pelor a call and get something nice for your brother. Bob: Moooooooooother!
Edge_of_Oblivion 09-13-06, 04:32 AM	Mom: Son, you have to learn to accept responsibility! *smack* Now i'm going back to the farm. Bob: But you can't! There's a Red Dragon out there burninating the land and eating all the people! Mom: I have to Bob! Those carrots don't grow themselves! TROGDOOOOOOOR!!! :dragon: And I agree, it should never be the focus of the entire campaign. Once is probably enough. After that you're beating a dead horse. That is awesome. Kind of makes me think Darth Vader, really. Hmm, actually, that can be readily combined with kidnapping: The PCs old man is a retired veteran fighter. The villain kidnaps him and brainwashes him to his cause. This is unknown to the PCs, who bust in to save him. Having beaten the guardians, they free Fighter Senior, when his son, Fighter Junior, is suddenly hit with a dimensional anchor. The illusion on Fighter Senior falters, revealing him to be fully equipped. He draws his weapon and charges his son... Add light sabers at your discretion. Heh, let's leave the Star Wars to the Star Wars, shall we? Great idea otherwise.... :devil:
journeyman777 09-13-06, 04:56 AM	It's not that there's no telling what the hero will do, oh no. You know exactly what he'll do. Commit every waking hour to taking you down. Grizzled Veteran: You got angry. Do you know what that did? Student: It made me predictable. Grizzled Veteran: And what does being predictable make you? Student: Dead. I've been playing the same character for 7-8 sessions now and even the rest of the party doesn't know my name. (first or last) I hope to the goods of Good that's enough to keep them all safe. I'll check the Stronghold Builder's Guide and get back to you on lead sheeting.
Edge_of_Oblivion 09-13-06, 04:58 AM	I've been playing the same character for 7-8 sessions now and even the rest of the party doesn't know my name. (first or last) I hope to the goods of Good that's enough to keep them all safe. As the DM, this is the part where I laugh maniacally. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
Dunamin 09-13-06, 05:05 AM	hiryuu Good. Takes some serious rationale. See what happens when you think over things? Throughout your post I would have given you the benefit of doubt, but that last comment can only be taken as rude. Please reply in a polite manner, if replying at all. We seem to agree that when bad things happen to a hero’s loved ones, it usually motivates him to take down those responsible. We also agree that this usually is a conscious decision on behalf of the author or DM, in the case of D&D. So far, so good. However, you argue that smart villains don’t do that, because they figure that this motivation invariably will spell disaster for him. I say that this is not the case. No, it isn't flawed, unless you think peasants ae unarmed and worthless. How hard is it to have a crossbow? Besides, who says the hero's family are peasants? What if they're mages, or he comes from a line of dirty fighters? On a side note, imagine none of the wasps have stings but there's one that's six feet long and can shoot lasers from its eyes somewhere out there who knows where you live or is perfectly willing to find out, if that helps. As mentioned if the first post: Keep in mind that many PC families might be simple farmers, who live near a village with barely any protection, and with no desire to accept defensive measures if it changes their way of living drastically. While some PC families surely can be capable, this may not always be the case. This discussion applies to those unable to defend themselves from resourceful villains. Peasants are considered unarmed and worthless to a demon of at least some ability. It doesn’t matter if there are 20 of them armed with heavy crossbows – even if they were ready and waiting in a favourable environment, all had chosen their single weapon proficiency with crossbows and somehow had the morale to keep fighting while their friends get slaughtered by an intimidating and obviously superior foe. They’re not even going to scratch their enemy if they don’t wield the weapons required to bypass that damage reduction 10. Taking hostages almost never works. It's something the bad guys do when they're losing, otherwise the police wouldn't spend so much money on negotiators: if it was a foolproof plan, nothing would happen. What Analysis said. Also, remember that this if a fantasy setting, kidnapping is much easier accomplished here. Get the target, go back to your home in the Abyss, chain and trap him in a scryproof cellar for good measure. Good villains to do this sort of thing with are one-shot villains or villains you don't plan to have far-reaching goals, or have something to prove ("wa ha ha, llok at what you're willing to do to my henchmen just to get at me to rescue your family, we're not so different, you and I!"; just be preapred for that guy to have his rear end thrashed around the block when they finally get to him), or villains like The Joker, who don't want to conquer the world, they just want to mess with the hero's head. This is definitely not the case. Watch Prison Break. Read Shemmy’s Story Hour ( http://www.planewalker.com/forums/viewThread.php?intPostID=88&start=0). Those are recurring, brilliantly executed villains who does more than their share of messing with the PC relations and come out on top for a long time. Villains who have the nerve to kidnap or kill PC family members might just be the sort that are cunning or capable enough to evade the PCs for a good deal longer than their peers. Messing with the hero’s head might just be a bonus for them. While it creates dramatic tension in novels and films, it doesn't work very well in a D&D storytelling environment, where it simply creates annoyance and makes people want to jump through hoops not to have family at all. Look at how badly people are willing to mangle their backstories to not have families. I point the finger at DMs who have killed, maimed, and kidnapped those families in the past. If people are bending over backwards to create characters that don't have families or well-developed backstories, isn't that a warning sign for anyone as to something you shouldn't be doing anyway? Right? You think that would be a clue as to storytelling devices not to use. If that is the case with your group, I can understand your unwillingness to involve these elements. As mentioned, it’s a matter of taste. In my case, these problems have not arisen and the occasions where a PC relative have been endangered, it has worked very well as a plot device. My players have expressed how deeply they felt immersed in the game when they were fighting for something that really mattered to their characters, and urged me to do more of it. Sinis Protecting your family? The easiest thing for a PC to do is to conceal his name, or, use a pseudonym. After that, things get dicey. Generally, spells are expensive, so that's usually out. The only thing left is for the family to pick up where the PC failed: Changing your names. A clever villain wont be stopped by anything but the most powerful magical protections. I realise this thread is about protecting the NPCs, and this is not intended as a derailment or hijack, but "attacking" a PC's family has a lot of potential. I use "attacking" in quotations, because there are many ways of "using" them. You can play all sorts of nasty tricks on them, to start: Dominate Person. Helm of Alignment Change. Doppelganger hirelings (thoroughly despose of corpse of replaced individual). Vampires. There are plenty of fun things that can be done! I agree, there are many options for making a plot memorable by employing PC relations. You’ve pointed out some good ones. Keeping your true names hidden from those who might wish you harm is sound advice, if you can get the involved parties to go along with it. If you have any other ideas, spill it! Analysis Is the hero really willing to risk the remaining loved ones just to revenge the one that was tortured to death to set an example? That is indeed a powerful tool of control for a villain. Here’s an idea for its application: If your villain isn’t in a good position to dodge scrying, give him the means to at least notice it (a kuo-toa lapdog which can spot invisible things when they follow him around, for instance). As soon as he becomes aware that he’s “live”, order another mook to bring out the captured PC relative and torture and sacrifice him in the name of the villain’s vile god. Then let the scrying sensor know that any further scrying attempts will have much worse consequences (possibly revealing another prisoner). CryoSilver If even your fellow PCs don't really know who you are, it's much harder to target your family. Very dodgy ;). For those players who wish to uphold such mysticism, it sure yields some subtle defenses. Edge of Oblivion And I agree, it should never be the focus of the entire campaign. That’s one option I haven’t considered, but I too agree. If it’s overused, it becomes boring. Used correctly, and it can become the most memorable moment in the campaign. Heh, let's leave the Star Wars to the Star Wars, shall we? Great idea otherwise.... :devil: Indeed, just a random scene that played out in my mind. journeyman777 It's not that there's no telling what the hero will do, oh no. You know exactly what he'll do. Commit every waking hour to taking you down. Grizzled Veteran: You got angry. Do you know what that did? Student: It made me predictable. Grizzled Veteran: And what does being predictable make you? Student: Dead. Good point. I'll check the Stronghold Builder's Guide and get back to you on lead sheeting. Thanks for looking that up! I may even have it myself somewhere… Hmm, dare I dive in and look for it… EDIT: Found it: Adding a thin layer of lead has no effect on a wall’s statistics (hardness, hp, break DC, climb DC), though it will block detection spells and other effects blocked by this material. This costs 1000 gp per stronghold space (or per 1600 square feet of freestanding wall) so protected. Allright, a 1000 gp for lead-sheeting a room with 20 ft wide and 10 ft high walls. That’s about 15 gp to pull a Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), if that sheet he’s holding is 5 by 5 ft. So, if the enclosed cab space in a carriage is approximately 10 by 10 by 10 ft, that’s a total surface area of 600 square feet to cover with lead (including shutters). So, I’d say 100 gp for the carriage, an extra 100 gp for the unusual customisation and 1000gp * 600 square feet / 1600 square ft = 375 gp for the lead sheeting, totalling 575 gp. Does that sound about right for a scryproof carriage? Thank you all for your thoughts. Any new ideas on how to defend NPCs in the aforementioned context are welcomed.
hiryuu 09-13-06, 03:19 PM	Throughout your post I would have given you the benefit of doubt, but that last comment can only be taken as rude. Please reply in a polite manner, if replying at all. I apologize, I wasn't trying to be rude. I'm a high-functioning autistic (my major focus is writing and plot development), so often I don't know if anything I say or do will be offensive or rude at all, so I've come to the conclusion over the years that it's better just to say what my thoughts are telling me, otherwise I'd never say anything at all and end up the world's doormat. So, I'm sorry about that. I've been trying to get local groups together, and there's nothing but stupid people in my area, so my mind is full of knee-jerk reactions (I've got horror stories of the man with the tangible ego and the "advanced playing style" who has no idea how any sort of scoeity functions at all, but that's another story). D&D isn't just a story, it's also a game. Its storytelling techniques are vastly different than a book or a movie. Unlike the book or movie, the player has a much more immersive and interactive interest in his characters and their history, and to many players, doing "things" to that player's family feels like arbitrarily cutting off a limb, or at the very least, dictating that character's actions. If there's anything I've seen that players hate, it's their freedom taken away seemingly arbitrarily. It's okay to do if the players are already coming after the guy, this is actually why people take hostages in the first place, somebody's gunning for them so they look for "insurance," which, of course, just gets them mopre ****** off. Grizzled Veteran: You got angry. Do you know what that did? Student: It made me predictable. Grizzled Veteran: And what does being predictable make you? Student: Dead. Sorry, no. I don't feel that adventurers don't work that way. These are people who see death all the time. These are people who, at any second, could be missing a head, or see their partner explode in gore. Adventurers also make plans every moment. Before going into the dungeon, before combat, anytime. Adventurers are used to thinking on the fly, making plans in the span of a few seconds, and changing tactics almost instantly. These are people who see their own body parts mangled, their own intestines spilled on the ground, their best friends eaten, mashed, mauled, chewed on, set fire to, swallowed, spit out again, and turned into undead. You think it's going to get them unpredictably angry when you mess with their family, you have another thing coming. Get one angry, and you're likely not to know it until you just don't wake up one morning. Maybe this is all because I have dissected adventuring cultures, the why, the how, the way everything works, spent time among the homeless populations, and have been working on the anthropolgy of adventurers for close to sixteen years now, and I'm projecting unduly.
Dunamin 09-13-06, 04:57 PM	I apologize, I wasn't trying to be rude. I'm a high-functioning autistic (my major focus is writing and plot development), so often I don't know if anything I say or do will be offensive or rude at all, so I've come to the conclusion over the years that it's better just to say what my thoughts are telling me, otherwise I'd never say anything at all and end up the world's doormat. So, I'm sorry about that. I've been trying to get local groups together, and there's nothing but stupid people in my area, so my mind is full of knee-jerk reactions (I've got horror stories of the man with the tangible ego and the "advanced playing style" who has no idea how any sort of scoeity functions at all, but that's another story). No problem. I agree that one should express one’s opinions, as long as they’re in line with the established rules of debating – in this case, the Code of Conduct. For what it’s worth, I do think you’ve added useful criticism to the thread, even though I don’t agree on all your views (but these things happen in discussions, no? ;)). Unlike the book or movie, the player has a much more immersive and interactive interest in his characters and their history, and to many players, doing "things" to that player's family feels like arbitrarily cutting off a limb, or at the very least, dictating that character's actions. If there's anything I've seen that players hate, it's their freedom taken away seemingly arbitrarily. Whether things in the game happen arbitrarily is up to the DM. Indeed, players have the freedom to accomplish what their characters are capable of, but cause and effect still applies. Thus, if they become a thorn in the side of an unscrupulous villain and he somehow learns of people who matter dearly to the PCs, he may attempt to mess with them if it serves his purpose and he is capable of doing so. I avoid railroad plots as best I can, and so, if a PC has taken significant precautions to counteract threats to one of his NPC relations, I let things play out accordingly. The very reason why I started this thread was specifically to give players tools to further enhance their options in this endeavour (as well as rationalizing how other characters in the game world protect their loved ones, when put in such a situation). Anyway, I hope you don’t maintain such a grim outlook on involving PC relations as part of a plot, despite the bad experiences you seem to have had. I could refer you to some stories where they have been well executed, particularly Shemmy’s Story Hour, as mentioned previously.
journeyman777 09-13-06, 06:23 PM	These are people who see death all the time. These are people who, at any second, could be missing a head, or see their partner explode in gore. Adventurers also make plans every moment. Before going into the dungeon, before combat, anytime. Adventurers are used to thinking on the fly, making plans in the span of a few seconds, and changing tactics almost instantly.If you have players that actually measure up to all that, then I agree only a stupid villian would target their family. (There really isn't a lack of stupid villians to try though) Point being, many adventurers don't live up to that standard. The average group has a strong tendency to rush in without a plan if you can **** them off enough. Unlike the book or movie, the player has a much more immersive and interactive interest in his characters and their history, and to many players, doing "things" to that player's family feels like arbitrarily cutting off a limb, or at the very least, dictating that character's actions. If there's anything I've seen that players hate, it's their freedom taken away seemingly arbitrarily.Many players also hate it if their backstory never affects anything. Used in moderation, targeting friends and family gives players a chance to RP their loyalty and love to those characters in a way that wouldn't come up otherwise. Besides, it stretches belief for all this dangerous stuff to happen to the PC when nothing EVER happens to the rest of his family.