Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kiirnodel 10-01-04, 12:43 AM	Compliments of me! This is my rough draft I am gonig to turn this afternoon. I just wanted some feedback before the final revision. BTW: Would it be too much to ask for 2 more players for my online campaign??? It's much like survivor...the link is in the sig... Enjoy! Brett Livingston Prof. Cruea Eng 111 September, 27, 2004 Dungeons and Dragons: Satan’s Game? “I cast fireball on the orcs!” declared Chris, “I deal 19 fire damage to each of them if they fail their save.” “Wait!” interrupted Jason, “after his fireball, I’ll charge the remaining with my greatsword.” “I will lay on hands Regdar so he doesn’t die.” These are common phrases you will hear if you sit in on a Dungeons and Dragons session. Dungeons and Dragons is a role-playing game in where a group of players make characters to represent themselves. They go through corrupted dungeons, treacherous mountains and scorching deserts struggling to survive. One player, called the Dungeon Master, controls the monsters the players fight and everything else in the game, in an effort to balance everything and make it enjoyable. An enjoyable evening it could be, except that it is evil? The accusation many Christian fanatics pose at this game is that it possesses its players to summon demons and perform profane acts of vile cruelty. None of this is true; all of this is accused towards a game because of the churches jealously of the attention that this game’s pantheon gets. No one should be prohibited from playing Dungeons and Dragons because of the lie that it is Satan’s game. Dungeons and Dragons is in no way forcing its players to do anything. This game in fact has a few precautions not to do any of this in its many manuals. In fact both the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness include “While I have tried to explore some shades of gray in this book, the D&D universe is still much more black and white than the real world.” The Player’s Handbook encourages the differentiation between reality and imagination, so as the players do not perform some of the acts their characters might do. Many Dungeons and Dragons player feel great satisfaction after playing due to the ability to express your imagination, to wander from the bonds the mundane world puts upon us. No one can cast spells, invoke fireballs, and smite evil with “Righteous Might.” This does bring me to my next point, however. Dungeons and Dragons in no way encourages Magicka, the Occult, Paganism or Witchcraft. This is primarily because none of this is real. The Player’s Handbook specifically states all of this being imagination. Wicca magic is supposedly associated with this game. After a review of many search engines, no Wicca website had any Dungeons and Dragons products for sale, or even mentioned. Nor does Dungeons and Dragons mentions Wicca. Logic would dictate that these aren’t related whatsoever. Dungeons and Dragons isn’t a dangerous game. This game supposedly “is a teaching on demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, Satan worship, gambling, Jungian psychology, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning. necromantics, divination and many more teachings, brought to you in living color direct from the pit of hell!!!” Interestingly enough this is the exact list of things Christianity opposes, how can a single game encompass all of this? Suicide is quite a serious ordeal that 500 people commit every year out of four million. The thing is not even ten of these people will have played dungeons and dragons in fact only seven people out of all four million Dungeons and Dragons players commit suicide each year, more churchgoers do so than that. In essence, this game is less dangerous than most activities, if not more satisfying. One could say that after their character dies, they will kill themselves or have a huge temper tantrum. This is probably true, about the temper tantrum, but only a person with a very bad mental disorder would even consider committing suicide for such a silly reason. After interrogating several Dungeons and Dragons players whose characters had been killed a common response is a bit of depression or anger, similar to that of when one’s favorite football team just lost a game, yet no one says anything about satanic football players, or suicides. Once again, suicide rates are lower in people who do play Dungeons and Dragons. The “AD&D Hall of Shame” Jack Chick compiled is eleven persons long, over thirty years of production, eleven is quite a small number compared to anything, though this list should be about one hundred long, none of them have actually been directly traced to Dungeons and Dragons. Another argument is that Dungeons and Dragons promotes Satanism. The truth is that there is no Satan in Dungeons and Dragons, a major touché to the argument. None of the books include Satan, though devils are included. I personally have used many devils in gaming sessions, and the players defeat them every time. No manual reveals who or how to worship, how to perform rituals. Rituals and Satanism are nonexistent in Dungeons and Dragons. There are ways to link them to each other, mainly the use of devils, but you can not play these as characters, and all of the sample characters in The Player’s Handbook would oppose them. The sample cleric worships Pelor, the sun god of healing and protection. This worshipping brings in the next argument. Does playing Dungeons and Dragons cause you to worship a different pantheon? This is laughable because these deities are nonexistent as well, ideals made up by the authors and nothing more. The option of deities relies on the Dungeon Master, who can choose a monotheistic campaign where everyone worships “Christ” and the Bible exists. The rules are merely guidelines to follow close to. The Dungeon Master can change the rules as he wishes, but it is his job to make the session enjoyable for the players. The fact that you can make the gods of Dungeons and Dragons nonexistent and use the God in which modern day people are familiar with isn’t the point, the fact that worshipping a god is something the character does, not the player. You can pray to Pelor all you want as long as you don’t start doing this before supper and sleep; that would be taking the game too far. Erythnul and Tempus are gods of slaughter and battle respectively, yet players who worship these deities aren’t cruel and belligerent outside of the game, just their characters. In essence this game isn’t anything more than what it says it is: a game. No one commits suicide after going bankrupt in “Monopoly.” Likewise the same f or Dungeons and Dragons, the press wants the public to believe that. There is no Satan, no witchcraft, no Wicca, no anything that involves real world thing. It is a fantasy role playing game. A simple fantasy role playing game. Works Cited: Cook, Monte, Jonathan Tweet and Skip Williams. The Dungeons and Dragons Player’s Handbook. 3.5th edition. Ed. Julia Martin, John Rateliff. Washington: Renton, 2003. Cook, Monte, Jonathan Tweet and Skip Williams. The Dungeons and Dragons Dungeon Master Guide . 3.5th edition. Ed. Julia Martin, John Rateliff. Washington: Renton, 2003. Drader, Darrin, Christopher Perkins and James Wyatt. The Book of Exalted Deeds. 3.5th Edition. Ed. Michele Carter, Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel. Washington: Renton, 2003.
DL_Raistlin 10-01-04, 12:58 AM	Sadly, no conservative, highly religious people are going to read that and logically think about it. Sorry, but I'm absolutely fed up with these ultra-religious idiots. There is no "satan's game" or any of that junk.
Kiirnodel 10-01-04, 01:10 AM	I am sending it out to every religious fanatic that posts their e-mail on thier anti-D&D website... I probably won't accomplish anything, but I'll feel better.
SnowbearK 10-01-04, 01:21 AM	Probably not (btw, links to Jack's site are prohibited by the CoC, as are any links to sites that promote "hate speech" -- just something to consider, I've not yet gone to the other sites in your bibliography) but you may just reach someone. As a gamer, everything you've said in your writing is old hat to me. It's been said and written a thousand cubed times over the last 30 years. However, it is nonetheless well written and thought out. :) I would also include a paragraph concerning it's roots in miniature wargaming, just for thoroughness' sake. Heck, if you've got the 30th anniversary issue of Dragon, you could even slip that into the bibliography. If your prof. wants to thoroughly check your work, (s)he will have to pick up a copy... ;) Good luck on the grade. (oh and DL_Raistlin, you've obviously never played any TCG's... :rofl: )
Thanqol 10-01-04, 01:27 AM	Or it can be summed up with the following website: http://www.flashplayer.com/animation/8bitdnd.html give it a look over.
Thorak 10-01-04, 01:44 AM	The problem is, well-thought-out and reasonable arguments don't work with these people. What we need to do is get ahold of the clergy. Most of them aren't stupid enough to think D&D is evil, especially if they see a game in progress. And then, we need them to go to their zealot gatherings on Sunday, and tell them they're blithering idiots. But use nastier language. Remind them that God gets P.O.ed when humans start judging each other and pulling ridiculous stunts like calling a harmless game 'evil'. They might lynch him. But it'd be worth it.
Kiirnodel 10-01-04, 01:57 AM	I needed a topic for my essay, (Arguemental) and it fit! 8-bit D&D, prety funny that they added visual to go with the "deadalewives" old one, did they add animation to the second one yet? It probably is repetitive with whats been said in the past... but oh well :P
Levis 10-01-04, 04:16 AM	There is no "satan's game" or any of that junk. Obviously someone who hasn't played Civ for 36 hours muttering all the time "just one more turn".
Wildonion 10-01-04, 08:35 AM	I want to cast Magic Missle...... Anyway I love that you posted this here. The idea of sending someone into a Church to preach the harmlessness (spelling?) of D&D could work. :D
CzarGarrett 10-01-04, 10:21 AM	The problem is that anyone who doesn't think D&D is evil, won't suddenly consider it satanic, just as anyone who considers D&D to be the most evil, horrific thing a teenager can experience isn't going to spontaneously say "Eh, its not that bad." And I can't think of any ways to get them to at least accept it as not evil.
DL_Raistlin 10-01-04, 10:38 AM	(oh and DL_Raistlin, you've obviously never played any TCG's... :rofl: ) Actually I played Magic:TG for a long time. I got a lot of flak from my parents back when I was younger. I'm just saying that it's rediculous to think that these fantasy games are satanic.
angryman 10-01-04, 12:04 PM	Idealistically, this is good. But, as mentioned, blind fools do not listen to such things as logic or reason when they have the might of fanaticism and dogma to fuel their arguments. It really is pointless. Just accept that they're idiots, ignore them and politely tell them that, while you appreciate their concern, it really is none of their business and you're doing fine, thanks for asking anyway. Just remember that their ranting makes THEM look stupid, not you. Don't rise to the bait. As the old saying goes- "Being in the rain only matters if you care about getting wet."
Paladin2004 10-01-04, 12:36 PM	Well I'm a christain and i love playing DnD it rocks, also my Dad (A Team rector of the parish (note - a rectors like a vicar but higher up with more work but same pay hehe) also plays Dnd and another vicar i know, who is one of my Dads friends also used to play DnD with my dad at theological colledge. Personally i don't thinks there anything evil about DnD. People make it evil of course ,when they decide "oh DnD with magic is cool lets start going worshipping demons and testing out black magic" - but that is rarely the case. In my view its just a real good game. It all depends on how you play it, as with most things - Hey how can a classic battle between good and evil, you playing (normally) the goodies be bad. I also think it helps people empothise since they are role playing which will help them to understand other people and put them selves into there shoes, which is a good thing. As for books like Lords of the Rings, which also rocks, J.R Tolken was a christain, he actually converted C.S Luas. Both of whom have books set in places like DnD and all have a christain theme running through them. eg. Gandalf fighting the Balrog and sacrfing himself to save the fellowship. - Jesus dying on the cross to save humanity. Gandalf comes back as Gandalf the white - Easter strory, the ressurection of Jesus. Not all christains are against DnD, so cool ok sorry for all the spelling mistakes and grammar mistakes ect. splinter cell calls.
WWAD 10-01-04, 02:48 PM	The essay, with questionable writting content, grammar, style, etc. aside, does not even begin to address the real cornerstones of the "Christian" argument against D&D. Keep in mind that D&D is only addressed by name in the same way that people say Kleenex instead of tissue because it is by far the most successful and long-lasting game of its kind in the English language. What they really mean is FRPGs or RPGs. Honestly, the way most people play D&D would not be acceptable in a religious context (i.e., a game to be played in bible school), by children (those under 13), or unsupervised teens (13-17yo) so I'm not sure why anyone finds this argument surprising. The level of violence notwithstanding, the worship of pagan (or non-christian) gods, the very accurate knowledge of the occult or witchcraft within the game, pornographic images, roleplaying something other than a servant of God, and use of dramatic elements in some games make it all too close to Satanism for some people to withstand (see [[EDIT: Jack Chick's URL removed -- providing a link to his website is a violation of the Code of Conduct for off-topic content]] for a good article on this). Many of the same reasons some people won't read Harry Potter books, or let their kids read them. While I completely understand thier arguements, and feel that there is nothing you can say in your essay to dissuade them or even counter their arguements, I don't hold the same beliefs and therefore continue to play D&D with my friends. I don't think any of us attend regular religious meetings of any kind, so for us, it's a secular experience--guys + beer + pizza + dice = fun. However, to the truly devout, any experience should be a holy one (if it's not worth doing for God, it's not worth doing concept). Again, I sympathize with those young people who are still within the confines of their parents' home and do not have the freedom to make their own choices based on their expiences. All I can suggest is, go to college--in another state. Their parents, and their belief structure, are very clear that D&D is not an acceptable activity for them to participate in and neither you, I, or the government can dictate how these children should be raised unless we are also their legal guardians. While there is a community of Christians who talk about the good things that D&D can teach (when played in a certain manner) (see http://rivendell.fortunecity.com/perilith/919/christiand7d.htm), like religious tolerance, moral conflict, courage, faith, etc. D&D will remain a largely "geek" activity, on the fringe of the mainstream. Attempts to "convert" the strongly devout person or their children into your D&D group will not end well--no better than you becoming someone who worships the same way they do. Their religion is more important to them than their own lives--and personally, if someone said to me, stop playing D&D or die, I'd toss my dice for the last time... into the garbage. So, I wouldn't even try to compete with that. I'm not sure what venue you were hoping to publish that essay other than here, but I'd suggest much more research, better writting, a huge warchest of debate material, and NEVER publish it--it's a waste of time.
Kiirnodel 10-01-04, 03:07 PM	I'm turned it in as a "rough draft" I didn't have any intent to publish it.
BetaFlame 10-01-04, 03:16 PM	Dungeons and Dragons in no way encourages Magicka, the Occult, Paganism or Witchcraft. This is primarily because none of this is real. The Player’s Handbook specifically states all of this being imagination. Wicca magic is supposedly associated with this game. After a review of many search engines, no Wicca website had any Dungeons and Dragons products for sale, or even mentioned. Nor does Dungeons and Dragons mentions Wicca. Logic would dictate that these aren’t related whatsoever. Excuse me, I just need something clarified. Are you saying that the magic in D&D doesnt exsist, or that "Magicka, the Occult, Paganism [and] Witchcraft" do not exsist?
Muxe 10-01-04, 03:28 PM	Your paper was a good start. I do not know how long your paper is required to be but you should definatly elaborate more on each of your topics. Oh and please have someone look over your paper there are far to many glaring grammatical errors for a college level paper.
The_Ditto 10-01-04, 04:15 PM	Might I offer a bit of critique?? I noticed this phrase at the start of your essay: group of players make characters to represent themselves Might I suggest altering a bit ... it is just this (literal) misconception which leads people down the path to believe D&D is the Devil's game ... try something like: group of players create fictional characters (often heroes) to control in a constructed environment - much akin to an actor taking on the role of a character in a movie .. obviously, rework it to fit your theme and rhythm better ... I'm just nervous of that "represent themselves" line .... :angel: I for one, have never created a character to represent myself ... :rolleyes: (I know some have .. but I believe they're in the minority) .. but excellent, in any case ... :tiphat:
WWAD 10-01-04, 04:32 PM	Dungeons and Dragons in no way encourages Magicka, the Occult, Paganism or Witchcraft. This is primarily because none of this is real. The Player’s Handbook specifically states all of this being imagination. Wicca magic is supposedly associated with this game. After a review of many search engines, no Wicca website had any Dungeons and Dragons products for sale, or even mentioned. Nor does Dungeons and Dragons mentions Wicca. Logic would dictate that these aren’t related whatsoever. Excuse me, I just need something clarified. Are you saying that the magic in D&D doesnt exsist, or that "Magicka, the Occult, Paganism [and] Witchcraft" do not exsist? The first link in my post is to a long-standing article written by a former priest of a Satanic church. He reports that he was surprised at how accurate some source information was about conjuring/summoning, etc. That alone could be very disturbing to some people (whether it actually exists or not, the perspective of the person is what determines reality). So whether D&D and Wicca is analogous doesn't matter. If there are enough similarities to make someone uncomfortable, then they won't play it.
BetaFlame 10-01-04, 04:42 PM	No offense, WWAD, but I dont have time to list all the reasons that article is bogus. I'm not going to start a religionous debate with anyone, and any harassment directed toward me because of my beliefs will be reported without hesitation. (It happesn more than you think.) I'm a practicing Pagan. Hence, my reasons for wanting to know if the original author thinks Paganism doesnt exsist. I, personally, know of at least 100 Pagans just in my area, and there are over 1 million in the U.S. Paganism and Wicca are the two fastest growing religions in the world.
klyre 10-01-04, 06:36 PM	No offense, WWAD, but I dont have time to list all the reasons that article is bogus. I'm not going to start a religionous debate with anyone, and any harassment directed toward me because of my beliefs will be reported without hesitation. (It happesn more than you think.) I'm a practicing Pagan. Hence, my reasons for wanting to know if the original author thinks Paganism doesnt exsist. I, personally, know of at least 100 Pagans just in my area, and there are over 1 million in the U.S. Paganism and Wicca are the two fastest growing religions in the world. He never said Paganism doesn't exist. He said nothing in the books is real.
Donraj 10-01-04, 07:05 PM	Well, since you asked for feedback... The thing is not even ten of these people will have played dungeons and dragons in fact only seven people out of all four million Dungeons and Dragons players commit suicide each year, more churchgoers do so than that. In essence, this game is less dangerous than most activities, if not more satisfying. That part is awkwardly phrased. I'd suggest turning it into another sentence, ie, "Regular churchgoers have a higher suicide rate then that." In essence this game isn’t anything more than what it says it is: a game. No one commits suicide after going bankrupt in “Monopoly.” Likewise the same f or Dungeons and Dragons, the press wants the public to believe that. There is no Satan, no witchcraft, no Wicca, no anything that involves real world thing. It is a fantasy role playing game. A simple fantasy role playing game. Typo. Other then that it seems pretty good. Paganism and Wicca are the two fastest growing religions in the world. Eh, no, I'm pretty sure that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in the world.
Joni-san 10-01-04, 07:22 PM	Thread discusses: * He Who Shall Not Be Named * Religion This thread will be locked in a few hours, give or take.
Aerunation 10-01-04, 10:00 PM	Thread discusses: * He Who Shall Not Be Named * Religion This thread will be locked in a few hours, give or take.AH!.... I understand the rules of the board and all, but I believe they can be over looked as long as everyone is being civil:)
Vanigo 10-01-04, 11:05 PM	... the very accurate knowledge of the occult or witchcraft within the game, pornographic images... The what now? There's information on the fictitious occult stuff of the game world, but I can't see how it can be called accurate, seing as how it has no more relation to reality than an episode of DBZ. And porn? I guess you could call the picture of the nymph borderline-pornographic if you felt like being alarmist, but nothing else comes to mind that would be called porn by anyone outside of the Victorian era.
Kiirnodel 10-01-04, 11:28 PM	Thanks for the feedback, I must tell you not a lot of time went into grammar and clarity issues, I DID do the research though, I AM going to edit it and take all of these into consideration. Betaflame: I WILL clarify that now, of course paganism exists, I meant not in the books and thank you for pointing out my lack of clarity, no offense meant.
Rntaboy 10-02-04, 12:32 AM	I am a devout follower on our Lord and Saviour, Lucifer. I also play DnD, but not because I enjoy it, only because it pleases my dark liege. Lucifer created DnD and uses it to corrupt the weak into fighting on our side when it comes time to lay siege to heaven. I thought all of this was common knowlegde. In summary, DnD by itself sucks, but Lucifer is awesome, and so by assosiation, DnD is awesome.
Paladin2004 10-02-04, 04:42 AM	I'm hopeing\guessing that the above is a joke.
Paladin2004 10-02-04, 05:03 AM	I would say DnD most comprises of acting and playing along in a fictional world, and useing die for randomomnesss and bonuses for representing skill. Its a board game, all fictional, just a bit of fun. I for one don't take it seriously, and just because i see the party mage casting magic missle, does'nt mean i'm going to walk out of the room to slaughter a lamb and start getting my blood and painting evil witch craft symbols all over the wall. As for magic it is also dictated by die, same with your weapons ect. Half of its anyway one big maths lesson on probability anyway lol. j\k As to the comment about playing another religion while your in role, many acters play characters that are not of there religion, eg. Jedi Knights lololol but you know what i mean, lol i can't think of many films but i know people play differant relgions, and thats not class as wrong so how can DnD be? As long as people are'nt nieve and don't get muddled up between reality and fiction there ok and safe to play and as a christain I know very well to stay away from anything evil and ocultish. Also as for DnD as a game goes ,i don't get any feeling or sence that it is evil at all, lol cause normally the alarm bells start ringing but thats another story. As i've said before it s just a good completecated probabilty based bored game with acting in it. Also as I've said before , DnD was largely based on novels such as Tolkiens the hobbit and Lords of the Rings - and to say again Tolkien was a christain (converted C.S Lucas (lion the witch and the wardrobe series author) and alot of Tolkiens work has christain representation write through it. As i've mentioned in my posts before about gandalfs sacrifing himself and takeing on the balrog to safe the rest of the felloship - refer to Jesus sacrifing himself for the world and takeing all our sin on to himself. and then the ressurection of Jesus as a triuph ove5r sin and death - Ganfdalf coming back. and in C.S lucas there is an even stronger theme which is very obvious. lol another long winded, finger straining, mess of typos and spelling\grammar mistakes, hope you have enjoyed reading lol or enjoyed trying to read :D
Aerunation 10-02-04, 07:49 AM	...about the pornography thing. Most of the the negative things said about the game come from the 1st edition. The art(while not that good) was quite mature. Nudity and pictures of demons and devils were the norm. I could see how thw game's intent was twisted the way it was simply by the 1e covers. It's easy to judge a book by it's cover, when you open it up, sometimes you already have your mind made up. I remember when I was a kid looking at the books, I was scarred :censored:. :)
Paladin2004 10-02-04, 07:52 AM	yeah i saw on of those books ages ago, but the 3rd edition (never seen 2nd) does'nt have anything like that in.
Aerunation 10-02-04, 07:59 AM	yeah i saw on of those books ages ago, but the 3rd edition (never seen 2nd) does'nt have anything like that in. 2nd edition had a "PG" theme. No more nudity and no more mention of demons or devils. Demons and devils were just refered to as "fiends". Baatezu and Tanar'ri. I believe this was in attempt to rid TSR of some negative press.
Paladin2004 10-02-04, 08:01 AM	k , cool, ty
deafbymetal 10-02-04, 09:11 AM	I have also heard this argument for many years, and also believe it will never end. Part of the bad press D&D faces comes from an incident may years ago (in the early 80's, I believe) when a group of players killed one players stepfather in an attemp to gain insurance money and experience points :confused: . They made a tv movie about this, it was on earlier this week actually, called "Cruel Doubt", IMDB link here (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0104031/) . The same logic for why kids who play D&D commit evil acts are applied to why Ozzy made them kill their parents, and the real answer to that is no one wants to claim responsibility for their own actions. It's easier to blame an outside source such as D&D than to say that the person had bad parenting or a mental defect to begin with. I have been playing D&D for a long time, and D&D has played no part in anything that I would not post in public (i.e. the things you look back on and think "What the hell was going through my mind and made me do that!" If anything, D&D has been a positive thing in my life. I've met people whom I may never have associated with normally, and become good friends with them (I was the guy always suspended from school, voted most likely to end up in prison or a motorcycle gang :D ), it allows me the chance, if only for a few hours each week to not think about bills, work, the kids, the grandkids, my wife, etc., and it allows me to save the world and perform heroic acts that a regular working man such as myself can normally not do ;) . D&D has in truth made me a better person, making me think long and hard not just on the morality of my characters actions, but also on my own actions and beliefs. Or maybe thats just because I'm growing older, and I just want to blame D&D for good stuff? On a side note, about 17 years ago I was on my way home from a gaming session, late at night, and I was pulled over by a local cop in a nearby town (we affectionately refer to these police as "The Allentown Gestapo"). After a few moments of interrogation, when asked where I was coming from, and giving an honest reply of "Playing D&D with some friends", the cops response was "Oh, the devil worship game. I went to a seminar on that. May I ask the names of the other people involved?" That is verbatim what he said! Well, luckily the people I played with were members of Alchoholics Anonymous, as am I, and I could honestly tell this little stormtrooper that I only knew their first names, and why. Guess he was p.o'ed that he could not set up surveillance on our "little coven", because I ended up getting all the questions, and the car search, and a bull**** ticket, the whole nine yards. For being honest, and for playing a game which is perfectly legal in all 50 states, and for actually driving at 2 am on a saturday night when I should have been in bed so I could be up early for church. Yeah, I'm still angry about that incident :schemes: .
Shaftiel 10-02-04, 09:39 PM	Most of the the negative things said about the game come from the 1st edition. The art(while not that good)... Not that good? Trampier (DAT) rules! -Shaftiel
WizO_Catoblepas 10-03-04, 12:36 AM	Ok, more conversation on D&D - less on real world religion. Otherwise, I will have to close the thread. After all, these boards are about Dungeons and Dragons and not about what is wrong with religion, whatever it may be. Thanks.
The_Dark_One 10-03-04, 07:40 PM	He Who Shall Not Be Named I haven't read the whole thing yet, but how did Voldemort come into the conversation?
Rntaboy 10-03-04, 08:26 PM	* He Who Shall Not Be Named * Religion *Harry Potter This thread will be locked in a few hours, give or take.
annalivvie 10-03-04, 10:38 PM	* He Who Shall Not Be Named * Religion *Harry Potter This thread will be locked in a few hours, give or take. why can't we speak of Harry Potter again? I agree he sucks and should never be mentioned in a positive light, but why no speak of :)? EDIT:damnit, this is Aerunation. I posted this under the girlfriend's screen name. BTW, she loves Harry Potter :rolleyes:
MadApplejack 10-06-04, 08:47 AM	This game supposedly “is a teaching on demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, Satan worship, gambling, Jungian psychology, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning. necromantics, divination and many more teachings, brought to you in living color direct from the pit of hell!!!” Jungian psychology? :rofl: How does that go on the list with murder, rape, etc.? It hasn't come up yet (unfortunately), but I've decided that should anyone ask me if D&D is Satanic, I'm simply going to say yes. I mean, what are they going to do, revoke my birthday? :cool: I'm reminded of a list I saw once, "You Know You're a Star Wars Fan If..." One of the identifiers was, "...you've ever sincerely, seriously tried to use the Force when no one was looking." It's strange that I have done that (don't pretend like you haven't), but after several years of playing D&D, I've never tried to cast a spell. I suppose that's because the supernatural elements of D&D seem very clearly fake, whereas with the Force, it's like, "Well, Hell, it might work..."
Aliquid 10-06-04, 11:50 AM	Not that good? Trampier (DAT) rules! -Shaftiel I'll second that. As far as I am concerned, the art in the 1st ed AD&D monster manual is the best out of any monster manual ever... DAT rocked, I also liked Easley's work (especially the black and white stuff).... DCS on the other hand.... well he didn't quite rock, his art lacked depth and continuity.
Bort333 10-06-04, 08:43 PM	This isn't a good place to get comments on your paper. Everyone here already agrees with you.
DylanW 10-07-04, 01:42 AM	A couple of suggestions... it's just my $0.02 and I'm terrible about nitpicking, and I don't know what level of class this paper is for, so don't take any offense. Overall it's a good paper, and it's a good thing to know why you believe or don't believe something in the face of opposition. You might consider toning down some of the "loaded words" in the second paragraph if this is a persuasive essay. Yes, Jack Chick could pretty well be considered as such, but using the term "Christian fanatics" is somewhat of an ad hominem argument. You'd probably be better off saying "some Christians" rather than "many Christian fanatics." In your third paragraph, you might want to consider briefly explaining what the Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds are (sourcebooks for creating good and evil characters and settings). It will help the average reader to understand exactly what these are, since their names don't sound like your normal game manuals. In your seventh paragraph, you might want to say something to the effect of, "I have used many of these monsters and characters..." rather than "I have used many devils" to differentiate the real thing from characters in the game. Again, this is pretty obvious from reading the paragraph (especially if you know the game), but if you're trying to prove the game isn't a front for the occult it's helpful to have language like this as bulletproof as possible. In your eighth paragraph, you might strengthen your argument by mentioning that there is no "D&D pantheon" per se (this is just one of my personal pet peeves). The pantheon listed in the Player's Handbook is the pantheon for the Greyhawk campaign world; other campaign worlds (Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc.) have different pantheons. Thus the pantheon is merely a part of a fantasy world (because who believes that Krynn or Faerun or Greyhawk is real?), not an intrinsic part of the rules. Overall, you might also strengthen your argument by covering more things said by people other than Jack Chick. Yes, he's the poster boy for those of the anti-D&D persuasion, but he's one of the extreme examples. His claims about D&D in his tract are so off the wall that he's not your average case study on the subject. As I said, this is not really a jab at the paper, as it is good and I'm just trying to offer some constructive criticism. Hope it isn't taken that way, despite my continued use of "you should do this, you should do that." :)