d12 instead of d20 [Archive] - Wizards Community

d12 instead of d20 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Izodor_Shadowcaster
02-25-07, 03:48 AM Okay call me insane, but I just do not like using the d20 and was wondering if some of you knew how I could replace it with the d12 (which isn't used enough IMO) and still preserving much of the game balance?
Solaris
02-25-07, 04:22 AM Turn every +1 into a +0.6?

Why bother?
KurenaiYami
02-25-07, 06:51 AM Okay call me insane

Your insane.

I really don't see why you'd need to, but too much of thed20 system is based off of the d20 to change it with any sort of ease.
Artector
02-25-07, 07:37 AM You'd have to change a lot. Like, AC would be base 6+modifiers. Criticals would have to be changed, there's a greater chance of getting one when you have less numbers.

So in short, yes you are insane.
KurenaiYami
02-25-07, 07:45 AM Just out of curiosity...what don't you like about the d20?
_SIN_
02-25-07, 08:05 AM Maybe his D12 provides him with some interesting conversation that his D20 can't? :confused:
Eikre
02-25-07, 08:10 AM Yeah. Roll two of them and subtract 3.

>_>
CharlieRock
02-25-07, 08:18 AM Yeah. Roll two of them and subtract 3.

>_>
For a range of -1 to 21?
Easier to switch game systems then try to make a d12 system that is convertible to d20 system.
Millennium
02-25-07, 08:26 AM You'd need to recalculate pretty much every DC in the game. Remember, a DC of 10 is supposed to be a 50-50 shot for someone with no training in that particular roll. On a d12, however, a DC of 10 suddenly becomes much harder: less than 20%. A DC of 15 is supposed to be difficult but not impossible for someone untrained, but it is impossible with a d12: you have to have at least three skill ranks.

Out of curiosity, why don't you like the d20? There may be another way to achieve what you're looking for.
runestar
02-25-07, 08:50 AM Try those old steve jackson gamebooks?:P
Adoltin
02-25-07, 09:05 AM he probally only likes the d12 because u can spin it:P
Artector
02-25-07, 09:37 AM he probally only likes the d12 because u can spin it:P

You can spin any dice. Trust me.
Dexter_Blacktyde
02-25-07, 01:15 PM The way I see it, the d12 (or d10 for that matter) would actually be more suited for skill checks than the d20. As far as combat is concerned, a d20 works just fine. But when it comes to skill checks, an untrained commoner can easily put someone with 10 ranks in a skill to shame ten times in a row; at least the probability for this is decidedly higher with a d20 than with a lower die. IMHO someone with many ranks in a skill should have a definite advantage over someone with no ranks at all. But even with many ranks the outcome of a check depends more on luck than on your ranks until you have a really high number of them.

DB
Krusk
02-25-07, 02:39 PM I could see switching the d20 our for 12 when doing inititave. Makes improved intititave more attractive, as is a higher dex.

Not too hard a conversion process for that. No calculation needed.

Simply pick up a diffrent die.
swallowyersoul
02-25-07, 03:31 PM you'd have to change a lot of math, but it's doable.

but i have to agree with most of the posters here: the work involved isn't justified by how much more you'd enjoy the game.

i knew a guy who used d12s because his wife was deeply christian and anti d&d. d&d was d20, she knew. but d12 was somehow different and thus okay.

unsurprisingly they're divorced now.

but overall, just use greataxes more often and leave the d20 where it is. the changes wouldn't be worth the effort.
Fencerboy
02-25-07, 03:44 PM why does the D20 get no love?
I thought it was pretty cool...
:allalone:

:censored: D12 RUINS EVERYTHING!!!:weep: :weep: :weep:
Solaris
02-25-07, 04:05 PM his wife was deeply christian and anti d&d. d&d was d20, she knew. but d12 was somehow different and thus okay.And despite her obvious challenges, she probably managed somehow to get to work in the morning with her underwear on under her clothes. An inspiring tale.
Bullshido
02-25-07, 05:25 PM Okay call me insane, but I just do not like using the d20 and was wondering if some of you knew how I could replace it with the d12 (which isn't used enough IMO) and still preserving much of the game balance?

I would say switch to another system. I can't think of any that are based on the d12 off the top of my head, but WW uses d10.
seldom_seen
02-25-07, 05:32 PM The game is based on the D20, and any modifications you tried to make would be too difficult to make it worthwhile.

I suggest you simply learn to love your D20. Get to know it better. Take it out to dinner, or to see a movie. Maybe you can go away on a nice road trip together. But the most important thing you need to do is to treat your D20 with respect and dignity. The more you do this, the more your D20 will respond to you.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
02-25-07, 06:30 PM And despite her obvious challenges, she probably managed somehow to get to work in the morning with her underwear on under her clothes. An inspiring tale.

She could have been an exotic dancer.
Solaris
02-25-07, 06:42 PM She could have been an exotic dancer."Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song. Let them praise his name in the (lap) dance."
StevenO
02-25-07, 06:53 PM d12 +4 = d20

That is the closest equivalent although using it just makes everything you that much closer to average all the time.
Nathreet
02-25-07, 07:23 PM d12 +4 = d20

That is the closest equivalent although using it just makes everything you that much closer to average all the time.
That'll work. The consequence will be that weaker creatures will have a much harder time beating stronger ones. Suddenly every +1 you can get will be huge. A tweaked out character will utterly annihilate one that is slightly sub-optimal.

Despite what you might think, a +1 is already quite big as it is. If success is near 100% then sure, it's only worth 5%. But if success is 50%, that 5% is a 10% increase. Etc. The goal you might be looking for with a d12 is already acheived with a d20. i.e., a d20 isn't as large a die as you might think. It's plenty small enough.
theotherdraxen
02-25-07, 11:23 PM d12 +4 = d20

That is the closest equivalent although using it just makes everything you that much closer to average all the time.
Yep, this should be about right.
That'll work. The consequence will be that weaker creatures will have a much harder time beating stronger ones.
I think that was what the OP was going for, though.
Suddenly every +1 you can get will be huge. A tweaked out character will utterly annihilate one that is slightly sub-optimal.
Somehow, I just don't think it will be quite that bad...

Despite what you might think, a +1 is already quite big as it is. If success is near 100% then sure, it's only worth 5%. But if success is 50%, that 5% is a 10% increase. Etc. The goal you might be looking for with a d12 is already acheived with a d20. i.e., a d20 isn't as large a die as you might think. It's plenty small enough.
Right, and if success is 5%, that's a 100% increase. I'm still not convinced that a +1 is all that great, even on a 1d12+4 system. It's actually still more random than the 3d6 UA variant.
Waterhammer
02-26-07, 12:46 AM Quite a few games were based on the d6 entirely. They had the advantage of it being easy to find six-sided dice. Just don't ask for d6s. Most folks will just say, Huh?
Anyhow, yeah, you are insane.
johnkretzer
02-26-07, 01:05 AM I thought of going the opposite way and making the d30 system(biggere is better would have been the tag line)
Then i became sane( well saner)
ae020704
02-26-07, 07:48 AM Sorry, I'm confused. What actually do you not like about the d20? Seriously, not trying to sounds in any way depricatory, but...that's...weird. It's not like d20s are like d100s (see: Golfball) so...I just don't get it.
Izodor_Shadowcaster
02-26-07, 08:54 AM OKey this needs some explanation:

I do not like the way the different dice are used on the moment in the game. Some dice are hartely used (like the d10 and d12) while others like the d20 are used almost for every aspect of the game.

I would like to make a more fair use of each type of die in the game, increasing the useage of dice such as d12 and d10 and decreasing the use of d20, because we hartely use the d12 for anything other than wielding an axe or leveling a barbarian. We all have the die (it is in each set) so why not use all dice equally, I am sure its more fun, right?

This sounds less insane I hope.;)

I would like to hear ideas such as using d20 only for combat, d12 for skills and d10 for initiative or somthing....

Thank you all for your quick replies.
ae020704
02-26-07, 08:59 AM I...uh...I don't think the dice care. Except the d12. Other dice laugh at the poor d12. It cries at night...

Seriously, though, the system is built around the d20. All dice-based systems are built around one particular die, and all the others are going to feel a bit left out (excuse the anthropomorphisis). It's just that, in d20, it's the...d...20...

Does that last bit sound as inane as I think?:(
johnkretzer
02-26-07, 10:08 AM You want to use a d12s and d10s use psionics.
tankschmidt
02-26-07, 10:13 AM Why not switch to the d30? Then you'll get a jump on 4th edition.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010401a
theotherdraxen
02-26-07, 10:58 AM Well, depending on the die you use, your amount of probability will vary.

Quick conversion:

d20: 1-20
d12+4: 5-16
d10+5: 6-15
d8+6: 7-14
d6+7: 8-13
d4+8: 9-12
d2+9: 10-11

IMO, the d20 works fine as is, but maybe you want to see a d12+4 replace the d20 for skill checks so that it becomes more about the skilled person in question rather than the die roll.
MagicMouth
02-26-07, 11:05 AM I...uh...I don't think the dice care. Except the d12. Other dice laugh at the poor d12. It cries at night...

Do not underestimate the power of the d12. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html)
RobbyPants
02-26-07, 11:06 AM In addition to lots of other work, you'd have to take anything with a base of 10 (AC, saving throw DCs based on level/HD, etc..) and change it to 6. As mentioned, every +1 / -1 would need to be changed to +0.6 / - 0.6. The math would be hideous, and would involve lots of fractions or decimals.

In the end, you'd have the exact same thing as the d20 system, with a lot more work and confusion, but I guess you could dust off all of your old d12s.

One question: what do you do a year afterward when you complain about your d20 not getting any use? :P
theotherdraxen
02-26-07, 03:11 PM In addition to lots of other work, you'd have to take anything with a base of 10 (AC, saving throw DCs based on level/HD, etc..) and change it to 6. As mentioned, every +1 / -1 would need to be changed to +0.6 / - 0.6. The math would be hideous, and would involve lots of fractions or decimals.
But you wouldn't need to do any of that, if you would just roll 1d12 and add 4. Everything can stay the same.

In the end, you'd have the exact same thing as the d20 system, with a lot more work and confusion, but I guess you could dust off all of your old d12s.

One question: what do you do a year afterward when you complain about your d20 not getting any use? :P
I do wonder this as well...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Izodor_Shadowcaster 02-25-07, 03:48 AM	Okay call me insane, but I just do not like using the d20 and was wondering if some of you knew how I could replace it with the d12 (which isn't used enough IMO) and still preserving much of the game balance?
Solaris 02-25-07, 04:22 AM	Turn every +1 into a +0.6? Why bother?
KurenaiYami 02-25-07, 06:51 AM	Okay call me insane Your insane. I really don't see why you'd need to, but too much of thed20 system is based off of the d20 to change it with any sort of ease.
Artector 02-25-07, 07:37 AM	You'd have to change a lot. Like, AC would be base 6+modifiers. Criticals would have to be changed, there's a greater chance of getting one when you have less numbers. So in short, yes you are insane.
KurenaiYami 02-25-07, 07:45 AM	Just out of curiosity...what don't you like about the d20?
_SIN_ 02-25-07, 08:05 AM	Maybe his D12 provides him with some interesting conversation that his D20 can't? :confused:
Eikre 02-25-07, 08:10 AM	Yeah. Roll two of them and subtract 3. >_>
CharlieRock 02-25-07, 08:18 AM	Yeah. Roll two of them and subtract 3. >_> For a range of -1 to 21? Easier to switch game systems then try to make a d12 system that is convertible to d20 system.
Millennium 02-25-07, 08:26 AM	You'd need to recalculate pretty much every DC in the game. Remember, a DC of 10 is supposed to be a 50-50 shot for someone with no training in that particular roll. On a d12, however, a DC of 10 suddenly becomes much harder: less than 20%. A DC of 15 is supposed to be difficult but not impossible for someone untrained, but it is impossible with a d12: you have to have at least three skill ranks. Out of curiosity, why don't you like the d20? There may be another way to achieve what you're looking for.
runestar 02-25-07, 08:50 AM	Try those old steve jackson gamebooks?:P
Adoltin 02-25-07, 09:05 AM	he probally only likes the d12 because u can spin it:P
Artector 02-25-07, 09:37 AM	he probally only likes the d12 because u can spin it:P You can spin any dice. Trust me.
Dexter_Blacktyde 02-25-07, 01:15 PM	The way I see it, the d12 (or d10 for that matter) would actually be more suited for skill checks than the d20. As far as combat is concerned, a d20 works just fine. But when it comes to skill checks, an untrained commoner can easily put someone with 10 ranks in a skill to shame ten times in a row; at least the probability for this is decidedly higher with a d20 than with a lower die. IMHO someone with many ranks in a skill should have a definite advantage over someone with no ranks at all. But even with many ranks the outcome of a check depends more on luck than on your ranks until you have a really high number of them. DB
Krusk 02-25-07, 02:39 PM	I could see switching the d20 our for 12 when doing inititave. Makes improved intititave more attractive, as is a higher dex. Not too hard a conversion process for that. No calculation needed. Simply pick up a diffrent die.
swallowyersoul 02-25-07, 03:31 PM	you'd have to change a lot of math, but it's doable. but i have to agree with most of the posters here: the work involved isn't justified by how much more you'd enjoy the game. i knew a guy who used d12s because his wife was deeply christian and anti d&d. d&d was d20, she knew. but d12 was somehow different and thus okay. unsurprisingly they're divorced now. but overall, just use greataxes more often and leave the d20 where it is. the changes wouldn't be worth the effort.
Fencerboy 02-25-07, 03:44 PM	why does the D20 get no love? I thought it was pretty cool... :allalone: :censored: D12 RUINS EVERYTHING!!!:weep: :weep: :weep:
Solaris 02-25-07, 04:05 PM	his wife was deeply christian and anti d&d. d&d was d20, she knew. but d12 was somehow different and thus okay.And despite her obvious challenges, she probably managed somehow to get to work in the morning with her underwear on under her clothes. An inspiring tale.
Bullshido 02-25-07, 05:25 PM	Okay call me insane, but I just do not like using the d20 and was wondering if some of you knew how I could replace it with the d12 (which isn't used enough IMO) and still preserving much of the game balance? I would say switch to another system. I can't think of any that are based on the d12 off the top of my head, but WW uses d10.
seldom_seen 02-25-07, 05:32 PM	The game is based on the D20, and any modifications you tried to make would be too difficult to make it worthwhile. I suggest you simply learn to love your D20. Get to know it better. Take it out to dinner, or to see a movie. Maybe you can go away on a nice road trip together. But the most important thing you need to do is to treat your D20 with respect and dignity. The more you do this, the more your D20 will respond to you.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-25-07, 06:30 PM	And despite her obvious challenges, she probably managed somehow to get to work in the morning with her underwear on under her clothes. An inspiring tale. She could have been an exotic dancer.
Solaris 02-25-07, 06:42 PM	She could have been an exotic dancer."Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song. Let them praise his name in the (lap) dance."
StevenO 02-25-07, 06:53 PM	d12 +4 = d20 That is the closest equivalent although using it just makes everything you that much closer to average all the time.
Nathreet 02-25-07, 07:23 PM	d12 +4 = d20 That is the closest equivalent although using it just makes everything you that much closer to average all the time. That'll work. The consequence will be that weaker creatures will have a much harder time beating stronger ones. Suddenly every +1 you can get will be huge. A tweaked out character will utterly annihilate one that is slightly sub-optimal. Despite what you might think, a +1 is already quite big as it is. If success is near 100% then sure, it's only worth 5%. But if success is 50%, that 5% is a 10% increase. Etc. The goal you might be looking for with a d12 is already acheived with a d20. i.e., a d20 isn't as large a die as you might think. It's plenty small enough.
theotherdraxen 02-25-07, 11:23 PM	d12 +4 = d20 That is the closest equivalent although using it just makes everything you that much closer to average all the time. Yep, this should be about right. That'll work. The consequence will be that weaker creatures will have a much harder time beating stronger ones. I think that was what the OP was going for, though. Suddenly every +1 you can get will be huge. A tweaked out character will utterly annihilate one that is slightly sub-optimal. Somehow, I just don't think it will be quite that bad... Despite what you might think, a +1 is already quite big as it is. If success is near 100% then sure, it's only worth 5%. But if success is 50%, that 5% is a 10% increase. Etc. The goal you might be looking for with a d12 is already acheived with a d20. i.e., a d20 isn't as large a die as you might think. It's plenty small enough. Right, and if success is 5%, that's a 100% increase. I'm still not convinced that a +1 is all that great, even on a 1d12+4 system. It's actually still more random than the 3d6 UA variant.
Waterhammer 02-26-07, 12:46 AM	Quite a few games were based on the d6 entirely. They had the advantage of it being easy to find six-sided dice. Just don't ask for d6s. Most folks will just say, Huh? Anyhow, yeah, you are insane.
johnkretzer 02-26-07, 01:05 AM	I thought of going the opposite way and making the d30 system(biggere is better would have been the tag line) Then i became sane( well saner)
ae020704 02-26-07, 07:48 AM	Sorry, I'm confused. What actually do you not like about the d20? Seriously, not trying to sounds in any way depricatory, but...that's...weird. It's not like d20s are like d100s (see: Golfball) so...I just don't get it.
Izodor_Shadowcaster 02-26-07, 08:54 AM	OKey this needs some explanation: I do not like the way the different dice are used on the moment in the game. Some dice are hartely used (like the d10 and d12) while others like the d20 are used almost for every aspect of the game. I would like to make a more fair use of each type of die in the game, increasing the useage of dice such as d12 and d10 and decreasing the use of d20, because we hartely use the d12 for anything other than wielding an axe or leveling a barbarian. We all have the die (it is in each set) so why not use all dice equally, I am sure its more fun, right? This sounds less insane I hope.;) I would like to hear ideas such as using d20 only for combat, d12 for skills and d10 for initiative or somthing.... Thank you all for your quick replies.
ae020704 02-26-07, 08:59 AM	I...uh...I don't think the dice care. Except the d12. Other dice laugh at the poor d12. It cries at night... Seriously, though, the system is built around the d20. All dice-based systems are built around one particular die, and all the others are going to feel a bit left out (excuse the anthropomorphisis). It's just that, in d20, it's the...d...20... Does that last bit sound as inane as I think?:(
johnkretzer 02-26-07, 10:08 AM	You want to use a d12s and d10s use psionics.
tankschmidt 02-26-07, 10:13 AM	Why not switch to the d30? Then you'll get a jump on 4th edition. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010401a
theotherdraxen 02-26-07, 10:58 AM	Well, depending on the die you use, your amount of probability will vary. Quick conversion: d20: 1-20 d12+4: 5-16 d10+5: 6-15 d8+6: 7-14 d6+7: 8-13 d4+8: 9-12 d2+9: 10-11 IMO, the d20 works fine as is, but maybe you want to see a d12+4 replace the d20 for skill checks so that it becomes more about the skilled person in question rather than the die roll.
MagicMouth 02-26-07, 11:05 AM	I...uh...I don't think the dice care. Except the d12. Other dice laugh at the poor d12. It cries at night... Do not underestimate the power of the d12. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html)
RobbyPants 02-26-07, 11:06 AM	In addition to lots of other work, you'd have to take anything with a base of 10 (AC, saving throw DCs based on level/HD, etc..) and change it to 6. As mentioned, every +1 / -1 would need to be changed to +0.6 / - 0.6. The math would be hideous, and would involve lots of fractions or decimals. In the end, you'd have the exact same thing as the d20 system, with a lot more work and confusion, but I guess you could dust off all of your old d12s. One question: what do you do a year afterward when you complain about your d20 not getting any use? :P
theotherdraxen 02-26-07, 03:11 PM	In addition to lots of other work, you'd have to take anything with a base of 10 (AC, saving throw DCs based on level/HD, etc..) and change it to 6. As mentioned, every +1 / -1 would need to be changed to +0.6 / - 0.6. The math would be hideous, and would involve lots of fractions or decimals. But you wouldn't need to do any of that, if you would just roll 1d12 and add 4. Everything can stay the same. In the end, you'd have the exact same thing as the d20 system, with a lot more work and confusion, but I guess you could dust off all of your old d12s. One question: what do you do a year afterward when you complain about your d20 not getting any use? :P I do wonder this as well...