Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mister Mayhem 01-30-04, 08:50 PM	One of the criticisms you often see about the D20 system is the linear probabilty generated by the D20. Using multiple, smaller dice would lead to a more statistically pleasing bell curve. Has anyone else every considered using 2D10 instead of D20?
sandskimmer 01-30-04, 09:02 PM	2d10 would make it a percentile game. Not that that would be bad. Star Frontiers by TSR was a percentile game, and it worked very well. Highly simple. I don't think it would translate well to D&D though. Just too many elements.
Flame Lancer 01-30-04, 09:02 PM	Sand, I think he meant adding the 2d10 together (i.e. 2-20 result) I'd rather have a 3 in 20 (15 in 100) chance of getting a crit...then a 6 in 100. Plus there is no chance for fumbles which can be amusing. Thinking about it a little deeper...you are most likely to get an 11 which usually doesn't hit....and also usually doesn't beat the DC.
The White Sorcerer 01-30-04, 09:04 PM	Originally posted by sandskimmer 2d10 would make it a percentile game. How so? 2d10 creates a number between 2 and 20. Now if it were d%, then it would be percentile.
Edymnion 01-30-04, 09:09 PM	Originally posted by Mister Mayhem Has anyone else every considered using 2D10 instead of D20? Well, the thought has come around before, but it has a major flaw. You cannot roll a 1 on 2d10. Even if you make a natural 2 an auto-failure, you have still given everything in the game an effective +1 to hit without increasing armor, and at the same time made it much harder to get a critical. You'd need to balance it out by taking 20 off the scale to match. Its just a big mess, and you really need a semester or two in statistics and probability to really see whats going on. But in the long run, its not broke, so why fix it? Its a whole lot of trouble that only slows the game down (you're rolling twice as many dice for every attack), and gives you only a very minimum increase in realism. To use the old acronym, K.I.S.S.
Mister Mayhem 01-30-04, 09:32 PM	You cannot roll a 1 on 2D10, but you can roll "Less than 5" which, statistically is almost the same thing. Criticals, instead of being on a 20, would be on 18-20, which would give almost the same odds as teh current system. Yes, a little tweaking would need to be done, but its not insurmountable, or even particularly difficult if you have a working knowledge of probablity.
Grayson 01-30-04, 10:31 PM	I'm working on a system that's similar to d20, and so far it's working with 2d10 as the base rolling system. It generates a lot more "average" results, which imo, leads to a better game - the dice are more dependable, which gives players a better knowledge of how good their characters are at something. A fighter with +5 to hit is just as likely to get a modified 6 as he is a 25. Imo, that's pretty goofy. A fighter with +5 to hit is 10 times as likely to get a 16 as he is a 6 or 26. Imo, that makes a lot more sense. The chance to do really well or really badly is still there - it's just the exception, rather than the norm.
aldymnor 01-30-04, 10:43 PM	Yes, this has been brought up before. the d20 represents twenty different degrees of success, each degree representing 5%. Ergo, if you hear that you get a +2 to something, it means your degree of success is marginalized by 10%. Ergo, if you convert to 2d10, there are only 19 different numbers to generate. There is a bell curve. There is not a linear representation of 5-100% success. Clearly this was the intent of the game makers, who have had it this way since its original conception I believe. Cause didn't they only use a d30 in 1st edition? I remember they did, but I can't remember if 1e non-advanced used d20 or d30. I just know AD&D 1e used a d30. Ok ignore me now.
Zherog 01-30-04, 11:09 PM	I don't believe D&D ever used a d30....
Grayson 01-30-04, 11:44 PM	*blinks* A d30? lol! 1st Edition used all the dice as well. Well, all dice that actually exist :p
aldymnor 01-30-04, 11:48 PM	Originally posted by Zherog I don't believe D&D ever used a d30.... I swear.. god maybe i went nuts. I was really young, like 8 before we switched to 2e. :( maybe it was just me using it in a fit of disconformity.
Ehelonna 01-30-04, 11:59 PM	Originally posted by aldymnor I swear.. god maybe i went nuts. I was really young, like 8 before we switched to 2e. :( maybe it was just me using it in a fit of disconformity. I remember seeing D30s... and the company that made them did publish a book suggesting how you could use them in an RPG. But D&D itself never used D30s.
Zherog 01-31-04, 12:14 AM	I have a d30. But like Ehelonna said - D&D never officially used them. The basic set came with the books and 1 each of d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20. Any material you saw for using the d30 was done by another publisher. And because of TSR's rules, those publishers couldn't mention D&D - they had to refer to it generically. :rolleyes:
Grayson 01-31-04, 02:21 AM	Damn, I could use a d30. Those uppity players with their high AC's.... :smirk:
aldymnor 01-31-04, 03:58 AM	Originally posted by Ehelonna I remember seeing D30s... and the company that made them did publish a book suggesting how you could use them in an RPG. But D&D itself never used D30s. I'm not only embarrassed, I'm heartbroken. Anyhow, back to the subject at hand people. Does reality itself function on a bell curve? Were game rules and settings made to fit linear or curve-function physics? (well they were made for linear, but do they work better for curve functions?)
Simo 01-31-04, 05:08 AM	A bell distribution would make a lot more sense but i'd be hesitant of using it as the game wasn't designed to be played as such. i'd have to look at the probabilities of doing certain things in the this different system. Also there is no point changing the range of fumbles and crits, then your just cancelling out all the changes!!
Mister Mayhem 01-31-04, 07:10 AM	Of course, I don't know why I'm even considering using 2D10 for D&D, when I could simply use the existing 2D10 mechanics from Underground...
Archtyrant Terevoth 01-31-04, 07:59 AM	Critical hits would be about the only place where I think things would get dangerous. The weapons would have to be rebalanced. Because having an 18-20 crit range is now lots better than having a 20/x4 crit range, and the two are supposed to be balanced. Aside from that I don't see any apparent balance problems coming from it, though realize that you're now much more likely to roll average, so character min/maxing plays a much bigger role.