d20/OGL concern [Archive] - Wizards Community

d20/OGL concern [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
capone888
09-13-04, 03:24 PM Can anyone help me out?

I know I must be posting this to the wrong forum, but since the change in format, I can not find the software forum anymore?

I have a great idea for a computer RPG I would like to base on d20 (Dungeons and Dragons). I am not looking to turn a profit on this game. I would allow for it to be downloaded for free by whomever would like to play it. I am not a huge publisher or corporation. I am just a kid with a great idea who would like to see if he has the discipline to program an entire game from start to finish. I love D&D, so I figured I would make a computerized adventure of one of my own campaigns.

My question is, I have read through the The Official Website of the d20 Game Engine and the Open Gaming License posted at www.wizards.com, and my head is spinning. I can't understand all that legal talk.

Is there somewhere on the Internet I could go to to receive this same information in a more user-friendly document (perhaps a d20/OGL for Dummies guide)? Or could someone supply me with some other useful information regarding developing a CRPG using the d20 (Dungeons and Dragons) open game liscenses? Perhaps someone else also has had this same type of experience and could give me some pointers?

Thanks.
Nadaka
09-13-04, 04:41 PM I will save you the trouble. You can not make an interactive computer game using d20. It is a violation of the OGL. Atari (IIRC) has sole rights to the creation of interactive computer games at the moment. In order to do so legally, you would have to negotiate with Atari to secure the right. Otherwise you may get a cease and desist order and if that didn't work a lawsuit could be filed against you.
capone888
09-14-04, 10:42 AM Wow! And I thought the days of 'Sue you Regulary' were over. Thanks for the heads up.
simen_88
09-14-04, 12:46 PM I'm pretty sure you can't get sued as long as it's free.
PSchirf
09-14-04, 01:22 PM I'm pretty sure you can't get sued as long as it's free.You would be wrong. You CAN be sued, even if you give it away.
ssampier
09-14-04, 09:22 PM You could design a game based on d20 or OGL instead of Dungeons & Dragons. There is a distinct difference. The trick would be include the Open Gaming License in computer form, which I do not believe anyone has accomplished.
Grox
09-14-04, 11:07 PM You would be wrong. You CAN be sued, even if you give it away.

Well, anyone can sue anyone else. For anything.

The question is, WOULD they?

Atari has to pay their own lawyers a chunk of change in order to sue you. They would probably rather NOT sue you. Furthermore, they have to look at what they'd get OUT of suing you.

If you are giving the game away for free, the answer is "not much".

So even if they sue you and win, you are probably not going to owe them a lot of money, unless they get a judgment that you have to pay their legal fees. I suppose they could get an injunction forcing you to destroy your inventory, or not to sell it, and cost you money THAT way --- though that particular remedy won't make them a dime richer, and will still cost them legal fees.

Since it's an open question whether they would find it worth it to SUE you, they may be more likely to negotiate with you, if you were to produce the game anyway and offer to pay them in exchange for them sharing the right with you. You could offer them a share of your profits.

Remember that while the d20, or D&D, labels could be a great asset in the marketing of your game, that alone probably won't make it successful. IF your game succeeds, it is more likely that the main causes will be your creativity and your technical skill. Given that, from a business standpoint it's not like you'll be sunk if you are DENIED the opportunity to use "d20" or "D&D". Sure you'll be inconvenienced, but once your game is finished it would be quite feasible to change the system to something else. So, IF your game is basically high-quality, and IF Atari recognizes that, it should be obvious that it will be in the best interest of BOTH of you to come to an agreement.

It's likely that the most lucrative arrangement would be for you to just produce a game that is so kick-ass that Atari would be happy to buy it from you. They might even offer you a job, or become major investors in a company that you start.

The manufacture of computer games can be extremely profitable.

AFAIK you have no current reason to consider Atari your enemy. IMO you should at least take a shot at the possibility of making them your friend.
Kem
09-14-04, 11:51 PM You CANNOT make an interactive game using d20. At All. Ever. It is explicity forbidden in the d20 Liscense.

You COULD in THEORY make an interactive game using the OGL and OGC released under the OGL.

However you would have to follow the OGL and would be unable to add an additional liscense to the game (well "basically" anyways ;) ). Which may be harder then it seems depending on the language, platform, and method you use to make said interactive game.

Price of what you are making is never a consideration. Cost to them is all that matters, and if they can, they will want to make sure Atari isn't irked by someone competing with their "Exclusive" D&D Liscense. Thus don't even touch the d20 and follow the OGL and Get a lawyer if you want to really look into it.
SlaineFargallows
09-15-04, 12:23 AM You absolutely CAN make your game regardless of what anyone else says. Just don't expect to sell it or distribute it among people other than close pals.

If I make a computer strip poker game with Han Solo, Ash and Mary Poppins based (somehow) in the D&D universe it's cool, until the wrong people know about it. If I steal the largest diamond in the world and never get caught, it's mine. It's not right, but it's mine.

Edit: Before you ask...yes. I play a lot of rogues. :D
PSchirf
09-15-04, 08:41 AM You're correct, Grox, that they may not sue... but you never know. Also, they don't need to do much to make all of the development effort a waste of time. In the case of software be aware that, even if you give the game away for free, Atari could claim that the game hurts their ability to sell their product and ask for damages. At a minimum they can expect a judge to award them with enough cash to pay for their legal fees, since such a product would be a clear copyright violation. Is the risk of paying for your lawyers and maybe their lawyers worth it?

Here's what happened to me. I used to distribute freeware TTFs from my website for gamers to use in making handouts. Someone passed me a bunch of TTFs and they were all freeware, so I added them to the site. The same person then sent me another group of fonts. Of the twelve files six were freeware, but, unbeknownst to me, six were not.

After having the fonts on my website for a few months my site was closed by the ISP. The ISP was informed that the maker of the font wanted to know how many times the font had been downloaded. After providing the font maker with the numbers I was sent a bill for $60,000 – the price of the fonts times the number of downloads that had taken place. Also, the ISP was informed that if I didn’t pay in 90 days the font maker would sue both the ISP and myself. I had to find another ISP, since the one I was using refused to let me use their service.

I contacted a lawyer and had a letter drafted explaining what had happened and basically told the font maker that I’d risk the legal suit, since I didn’t have the money to pay what they were asking. It also mentioned that the fonts had been removed from the site and deleted from my machine. I was told that I'd likely get a smaller bill if they felt I was a good target. My lawyers talked with their lawyers several times and after a few months I never heard from the font maker again. The cost I incurred made the experience one I’ll never forget. Lawyers are not cheap. We didn't even go to court and I cringe when I remember the bills I had to pay.
Frozen Yakman
09-15-04, 11:59 AM Of course you could just the change the underlying game system a bit and not worry about legal problems at all.
von Szass
09-15-04, 12:05 PM Or... you'll just sit back wait for Atari to collapse (they're quite close to that anyways) and negotiate to buy the license. ;)
Grox
09-15-04, 07:47 PM If I make a computer strip poker game with Han Solo, Ash and Mary Poppins based (somehow) in the D&D universe it's cool

Han Solo: I have a bad feeling about this . . .

Ash: Get out that spoonful of sugar, baby! :devil:
RiTz21
09-15-04, 10:27 PM Here's what happened to me. I used to distribute freeware TTFs from my website for gamers to use in making handouts. Someone passed me a bunch of TTFs and they were all freeware, so I added them to the site. The same person then sent me another group of fonts. Of the twelve files six were freeware, but, unbeknownst to me, six were not.

After having the fonts on my website for a few months my site was closed by the ISP. The ISP was informed that the maker of the font wanted to know how many times the font had been downloaded. After providing the font maker with the numbers I was sent a bill for $60,000 – the price of the fonts times the number of downloads that had taken place. Also, the ISP was informed that if I didn’t pay in 90 days the font maker would sue both the ISP and myself. I had to find another ISP, since the one I was using refused to let me use their service.

I contacted a lawyer and had a letter drafted explaining what had happened and basically told the font maker that I’d risk the legal suit, since I didn’t have the money to pay what they were asking. It also mentioned that the fonts had been removed from the site and deleted from my machine. I was told that I'd likely get a smaller bill if they felt I was a good target. My lawyers talked with their lawyers several times and after a few months I never heard from the font maker again. The cost I incurred made the experience one I’ll never forget. Lawyers are not cheap. We didn't even go to court and I cringe when I remember the bills I had to pay.

Geez... that's quite a scary situation.
I've delt with lawyers before, and was astounded how "quickly" the bill increases... a little phone call here, a Fax ther, and SURPRISE: another +$200 on the Bill...

Guess their office rent is quite expensive...

RiTz21
capone888
09-16-04, 11:21 AM Thanks everyone for your insights. With all the talk of lawyers and ca-ching (money), you definitely scared me away from my original intent.

Just for your knowledge, my original idea was for a CRPG based on D&D’s ruleset, but you must rid your minds of games like NWN, IDII, ToEE, etc. I am only one person with a programming background, not graphics. If Atari even saw my game, they would laugh their a$$es off. I wanted to use the d20 and OGL just to be able to use the ruleset – not to compete with the Baldur’s Gate series, or the like.

I was hoping my game would be a success because of an original idea I had. I wanted to program a game based on D&D, however, instead of giving you control of a complete party, with awesome graphics to represent everything from armor to facial expressions, I would instead give you control of only one party member. This way, you can really get involved with your one persona. Allowing you to roleplay him more extensively, building his skill sets, really developing him the way you would like, and not have to worry about 4 or 5 other party members.

But wait you say, there are games out there that only allow you to roleplay one character at a time. True, but here is my other twist. I create AI for a Dungeon Master, and AI for three other persons, playing their own individual characters. Basically, I wanted to make a game within the game.

Not only are you playing through a normal D&D campaign, but you are also speaking with and deciding with the persons who are actually playing those other characters. Just as you would at a real table-top session. There would be in game and out of game dialogue. Characters would even sometimes stay back at the local inn when the other adventures head up because the persona playing that character needed to grab some pizza. See what I am trying to do? I want to bring the real experience of table-top roleplaying to a computer game - think of it as D&D table-top Solo.

Besides creating a game within a game experience, I would force the user to keep track of his own character sheet. If he needs to roll a skill check, than the Dungeon Master (who is AI), would ask the user what his so-and-so skill modifier was (of course, I would confirm his response). Then I would have the DM explain what has happened based on his roll.

I would also give the user a choice to roll his own dice, and enter his own results (nothing beats the feeling of rolling a d20 and praying that that ‘20’ bouncing around comes up on top). Of course, this would allow for a lot of cheating, but what CRPG do you know of today that in some way can not be altered to give you 10,000,000 experience points or unlimited gold? The lack of real dice in any CRPG kills the whole experience.

I would also make the user use miniatures to track combat. The game would be mostly text based (except for a few handouts that I would allow the user to print out to his printer), so there would be no online grid to track the placement of characters. Of course, the computer would track the placement of characters, but it would not output that info to the user, forcing them to use miniatures to keep track. I would supply a basic grid of the map that the player could print out so he could see the boundaries of the map they are fighting on.

I would not keep a map for the user. If the user wants a map, they need to graph their own as they play.

I wanted my game to really convey the experience of playing a table-top game with other individuals, but on a computer. None of today's game accomplishes this. When you play a CRPG based on D&D, you are just using their ruleset. It is nothing like playing at a tabletop with friends. That is what I wanted to recreate with my CRPG. I thought the uniqueness of the idea would make the game a great success.

I have not abandoned the idea though. I am in the process of creating my own ruleset and campaign. I will have my own classes, races, etc. I will have my own skills. Feats will be upgrades. Weapons will have base random attack bonus and damage, no more of +1 and 2d6. No more spellbooks, but magic will be based on a mana type of system (think Diablo 2). Of course, I will call my mana, energy, to avoid their lawyers ;-). Even fighters will be able to use mana, but to perform special combat moves.

Well I ranted enough. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up of what I was planning when I first posted this message to the forum. Who knows, maybe the uniqueness of my idea will crush anything Atari can put out. Perhaps it will be I that will be suing Atari if they steal my idea (probably not though).

Of course, my game would be free for everyone – including the source code!! This way, aspiring programmers can create their own adventures and campaigns, and share their ideas with others. Perhaps we can build individual modules to advance a user's characters through multiple levels. The user could then decide which adventure to download to play.

By the way – anyone have any comments on my idea? It’s the first time I shared it with anyone – so I would love to know your opinion. Think it’s a unique and interesting idea I should follow through with? Think I am a loser? Share, share!!
RiTz21
09-16-04, 11:36 AM Thanks everyone for your insights. With all the talk of lawyers and ca-ching (money), you definitely scared me away from my original intent.

Just for your knowledge, my original idea was for a CRPG based on D&D’s ruleset, but you must rid your minds of games like NWN, IDII, ToEE, etc. I am only one person with a programming background, not graphics. If Atari even saw my game, they would laugh their a$$es off. I wanted to use the d20 and OGL just to be able to use the ruleset – not to compete with the Baldur’s Gate series, or the like.

(snip)

Your idea is certainly inetresting, but (as an experienced developper) it seems to me that it`s quite ambitious, specially when you wish to add a kind of AI to it. Making a game realistic with a powerfull AI requires advanced knowledge of AI systems - and a HUGE amount of time.

Hope you can make it work !!
(but I know the fun is in the Design !!)

RiTz21
Tafka Oddfan
09-17-04, 05:02 AM By the way – anyone have any comments on my idea? It’s the first time I shared it with anyone – so I would love to know your opinion. Think it’s a unique and interesting idea I should follow through with? Think I am a loser? Share, share!!

I used to be into programming, tried to program a few games. Even a few RPGs. I never finished any though. :-( You need to be very dedicated, not only to the game concept, but also to creating an optimal design architecture, and to learning new programming methodologies. I hope you've got what it takes, I didn't.

But still, I WANT YOUR GAME MAN!!! Ambitious, yes. But it sounds cool, very very cool. Can't wait till version 2 comes out with graphics!

Suggestions:
Would be cool if you could see pictures of other players on the screen, and of the DM. Just to give the feeling that other players are around you, who are also imagining the action just like you.

Also, the game should come with an automatic dice roller. This way I can play on my laptop in the train, where its a bit hard to roll dice.

As far as OGL and d20 stuff goes:
You cannot distribute a game and promote it as d20 compatible. However, (please correct me if I'm wrong people), my understanding is that WotC own the d20 licence, but they cannot legally copyright the DnD rules themselves because you cannot own the rules of a game, they can only copyright the text they use to explain those rules. So you *could* make a game based on the DnD rules, but you would not be able to promote it using the d20 concept, or logo. Also, you would not be able to reproduce any text from either the DnD manuals or the SRD. Can anyone else confirm this?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
capone888 09-13-04, 03:24 PM	Can anyone help me out? I know I must be posting this to the wrong forum, but since the change in format, I can not find the software forum anymore? I have a great idea for a computer RPG I would like to base on d20 (Dungeons and Dragons). I am not looking to turn a profit on this game. I would allow for it to be downloaded for free by whomever would like to play it. I am not a huge publisher or corporation. I am just a kid with a great idea who would like to see if he has the discipline to program an entire game from start to finish. I love D&D, so I figured I would make a computerized adventure of one of my own campaigns. My question is, I have read through the The Official Website of the d20 Game Engine and the Open Gaming License posted at www.wizards.com, and my head is spinning. I can't understand all that legal talk. Is there somewhere on the Internet I could go to to receive this same information in a more user-friendly document (perhaps a d20/OGL for Dummies guide)? Or could someone supply me with some other useful information regarding developing a CRPG using the d20 (Dungeons and Dragons) open game liscenses? Perhaps someone else also has had this same type of experience and could give me some pointers? Thanks.
Nadaka 09-13-04, 04:41 PM	I will save you the trouble. You can not make an interactive computer game using d20. It is a violation of the OGL. Atari (IIRC) has sole rights to the creation of interactive computer games at the moment. In order to do so legally, you would have to negotiate with Atari to secure the right. Otherwise you may get a cease and desist order and if that didn't work a lawsuit could be filed against you.
capone888 09-14-04, 10:42 AM	Wow! And I thought the days of 'Sue you Regulary' were over. Thanks for the heads up.
simen_88 09-14-04, 12:46 PM	I'm pretty sure you can't get sued as long as it's free.
PSchirf 09-14-04, 01:22 PM	I'm pretty sure you can't get sued as long as it's free.You would be wrong. You CAN be sued, even if you give it away.
ssampier 09-14-04, 09:22 PM	You could design a game based on d20 or OGL instead of Dungeons & Dragons. There is a distinct difference. The trick would be include the Open Gaming License in computer form, which I do not believe anyone has accomplished.
Grox 09-14-04, 11:07 PM	You would be wrong. You CAN be sued, even if you give it away. Well, anyone can sue anyone else. For anything. The question is, WOULD they? Atari has to pay their own lawyers a chunk of change in order to sue you. They would probably rather NOT sue you. Furthermore, they have to look at what they'd get OUT of suing you. If you are giving the game away for free, the answer is "not much". So even if they sue you and win, you are probably not going to owe them a lot of money, unless they get a judgment that you have to pay their legal fees. I suppose they could get an injunction forcing you to destroy your inventory, or not to sell it, and cost you money THAT way --- though that particular remedy won't make them a dime richer, and will still cost them legal fees. Since it's an open question whether they would find it worth it to SUE you, they may be more likely to negotiate with you, if you were to produce the game anyway and offer to pay them in exchange for them sharing the right with you. You could offer them a share of your profits. Remember that while the d20, or D&D, labels could be a great asset in the marketing of your game, that alone probably won't make it successful. IF your game succeeds, it is more likely that the main causes will be your creativity and your technical skill. Given that, from a business standpoint it's not like you'll be sunk if you are DENIED the opportunity to use "d20" or "D&D". Sure you'll be inconvenienced, but once your game is finished it would be quite feasible to change the system to something else. So, IF your game is basically high-quality, and IF Atari recognizes that, it should be obvious that it will be in the best interest of BOTH of you to come to an agreement. It's likely that the most lucrative arrangement would be for you to just produce a game that is so kick-ass that Atari would be happy to buy it from you. They might even offer you a job, or become major investors in a company that you start. The manufacture of computer games can be extremely profitable. AFAIK you have no current reason to consider Atari your enemy. IMO you should at least take a shot at the possibility of making them your friend.
Kem 09-14-04, 11:51 PM	You CANNOT make an interactive game using d20. At All. Ever. It is explicity forbidden in the d20 Liscense. You COULD in THEORY make an interactive game using the OGL and OGC released under the OGL. However you would have to follow the OGL and would be unable to add an additional liscense to the game (well "basically" anyways ;) ). Which may be harder then it seems depending on the language, platform, and method you use to make said interactive game. Price of what you are making is never a consideration. Cost to them is all that matters, and if they can, they will want to make sure Atari isn't irked by someone competing with their "Exclusive" D&D Liscense. Thus don't even touch the d20 and follow the OGL and Get a lawyer if you want to really look into it.
SlaineFargallows 09-15-04, 12:23 AM	You absolutely CAN make your game regardless of what anyone else says. Just don't expect to sell it or distribute it among people other than close pals. If I make a computer strip poker game with Han Solo, Ash and Mary Poppins based (somehow) in the D&D universe it's cool, until the wrong people know about it. If I steal the largest diamond in the world and never get caught, it's mine. It's not right, but it's mine. Edit: Before you ask...yes. I play a lot of rogues. :D
PSchirf 09-15-04, 08:41 AM	You're correct, Grox, that they may not sue... but you never know. Also, they don't need to do much to make all of the development effort a waste of time. In the case of software be aware that, even if you give the game away for free, Atari could claim that the game hurts their ability to sell their product and ask for damages. At a minimum they can expect a judge to award them with enough cash to pay for their legal fees, since such a product would be a clear copyright violation. Is the risk of paying for your lawyers and maybe their lawyers worth it? Here's what happened to me. I used to distribute freeware TTFs from my website for gamers to use in making handouts. Someone passed me a bunch of TTFs and they were all freeware, so I added them to the site. The same person then sent me another group of fonts. Of the twelve files six were freeware, but, unbeknownst to me, six were not. After having the fonts on my website for a few months my site was closed by the ISP. The ISP was informed that the maker of the font wanted to know how many times the font had been downloaded. After providing the font maker with the numbers I was sent a bill for $60,000 – the price of the fonts times the number of downloads that had taken place. Also, the ISP was informed that if I didn’t pay in 90 days the font maker would sue both the ISP and myself. I had to find another ISP, since the one I was using refused to let me use their service. I contacted a lawyer and had a letter drafted explaining what had happened and basically told the font maker that I’d risk the legal suit, since I didn’t have the money to pay what they were asking. It also mentioned that the fonts had been removed from the site and deleted from my machine. I was told that I'd likely get a smaller bill if they felt I was a good target. My lawyers talked with their lawyers several times and after a few months I never heard from the font maker again. The cost I incurred made the experience one I’ll never forget. Lawyers are not cheap. We didn't even go to court and I cringe when I remember the bills I had to pay.
Frozen Yakman 09-15-04, 11:59 AM	Of course you could just the change the underlying game system a bit and not worry about legal problems at all.
von Szass 09-15-04, 12:05 PM	Or... you'll just sit back wait for Atari to collapse (they're quite close to that anyways) and negotiate to buy the license. ;)
Grox 09-15-04, 07:47 PM	If I make a computer strip poker game with Han Solo, Ash and Mary Poppins based (somehow) in the D&D universe it's cool Han Solo: I have a bad feeling about this . . . Ash: Get out that spoonful of sugar, baby! :devil:
RiTz21 09-15-04, 10:27 PM	Here's what happened to me. I used to distribute freeware TTFs from my website for gamers to use in making handouts. Someone passed me a bunch of TTFs and they were all freeware, so I added them to the site. The same person then sent me another group of fonts. Of the twelve files six were freeware, but, unbeknownst to me, six were not. After having the fonts on my website for a few months my site was closed by the ISP. The ISP was informed that the maker of the font wanted to know how many times the font had been downloaded. After providing the font maker with the numbers I was sent a bill for $60,000 – the price of the fonts times the number of downloads that had taken place. Also, the ISP was informed that if I didn’t pay in 90 days the font maker would sue both the ISP and myself. I had to find another ISP, since the one I was using refused to let me use their service. I contacted a lawyer and had a letter drafted explaining what had happened and basically told the font maker that I’d risk the legal suit, since I didn’t have the money to pay what they were asking. It also mentioned that the fonts had been removed from the site and deleted from my machine. I was told that I'd likely get a smaller bill if they felt I was a good target. My lawyers talked with their lawyers several times and after a few months I never heard from the font maker again. The cost I incurred made the experience one I’ll never forget. Lawyers are not cheap. We didn't even go to court and I cringe when I remember the bills I had to pay. Geez... that's quite a scary situation. I've delt with lawyers before, and was astounded how "quickly" the bill increases... a little phone call here, a Fax ther, and SURPRISE: another +$200 on the Bill... Guess their office rent is quite expensive... RiTz21
capone888 09-16-04, 11:21 AM	Thanks everyone for your insights. With all the talk of lawyers and ca-ching (money), you definitely scared me away from my original intent. Just for your knowledge, my original idea was for a CRPG based on D&D’s ruleset, but you must rid your minds of games like NWN, IDII, ToEE, etc. I am only one person with a programming background, not graphics. If Atari even saw my game, they would laugh their a$$es off. I wanted to use the d20 and OGL just to be able to use the ruleset – not to compete with the Baldur’s Gate series, or the like. I was hoping my game would be a success because of an original idea I had. I wanted to program a game based on D&D, however, instead of giving you control of a complete party, with awesome graphics to represent everything from armor to facial expressions, I would instead give you control of only one party member. This way, you can really get involved with your one persona. Allowing you to roleplay him more extensively, building his skill sets, really developing him the way you would like, and not have to worry about 4 or 5 other party members. But wait you say, there are games out there that only allow you to roleplay one character at a time. True, but here is my other twist. I create AI for a Dungeon Master, and AI for three other persons, playing their own individual characters. Basically, I wanted to make a game within the game. Not only are you playing through a normal D&D campaign, but you are also speaking with and deciding with the persons who are actually playing those other characters. Just as you would at a real table-top session. There would be in game and out of game dialogue. Characters would even sometimes stay back at the local inn when the other adventures head up because the persona playing that character needed to grab some pizza. See what I am trying to do? I want to bring the real experience of table-top roleplaying to a computer game - think of it as D&D table-top Solo. Besides creating a game within a game experience, I would force the user to keep track of his own character sheet. If he needs to roll a skill check, than the Dungeon Master (who is AI), would ask the user what his so-and-so skill modifier was (of course, I would confirm his response). Then I would have the DM explain what has happened based on his roll. I would also give the user a choice to roll his own dice, and enter his own results (nothing beats the feeling of rolling a d20 and praying that that ‘20’ bouncing around comes up on top). Of course, this would allow for a lot of cheating, but what CRPG do you know of today that in some way can not be altered to give you 10,000,000 experience points or unlimited gold? The lack of real dice in any CRPG kills the whole experience. I would also make the user use miniatures to track combat. The game would be mostly text based (except for a few handouts that I would allow the user to print out to his printer), so there would be no online grid to track the placement of characters. Of course, the computer would track the placement of characters, but it would not output that info to the user, forcing them to use miniatures to keep track. I would supply a basic grid of the map that the player could print out so he could see the boundaries of the map they are fighting on. I would not keep a map for the user. If the user wants a map, they need to graph their own as they play. I wanted my game to really convey the experience of playing a table-top game with other individuals, but on a computer. None of today's game accomplishes this. When you play a CRPG based on D&D, you are just using their ruleset. It is nothing like playing at a tabletop with friends. That is what I wanted to recreate with my CRPG. I thought the uniqueness of the idea would make the game a great success. I have not abandoned the idea though. I am in the process of creating my own ruleset and campaign. I will have my own classes, races, etc. I will have my own skills. Feats will be upgrades. Weapons will have base random attack bonus and damage, no more of +1 and 2d6. No more spellbooks, but magic will be based on a mana type of system (think Diablo 2). Of course, I will call my mana, energy, to avoid their lawyers ;-). Even fighters will be able to use mana, but to perform special combat moves. Well I ranted enough. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up of what I was planning when I first posted this message to the forum. Who knows, maybe the uniqueness of my idea will crush anything Atari can put out. Perhaps it will be I that will be suing Atari if they steal my idea (probably not though). Of course, my game would be free for everyone – including the source code!! This way, aspiring programmers can create their own adventures and campaigns, and share their ideas with others. Perhaps we can build individual modules to advance a user's characters through multiple levels. The user could then decide which adventure to download to play. By the way – anyone have any comments on my idea? It’s the first time I shared it with anyone – so I would love to know your opinion. Think it’s a unique and interesting idea I should follow through with? Think I am a loser? Share, share!!
RiTz21 09-16-04, 11:36 AM	Thanks everyone for your insights. With all the talk of lawyers and ca-ching (money), you definitely scared me away from my original intent. Just for your knowledge, my original idea was for a CRPG based on D&D’s ruleset, but you must rid your minds of games like NWN, IDII, ToEE, etc. I am only one person with a programming background, not graphics. If Atari even saw my game, they would laugh their a$$es off. I wanted to use the d20 and OGL just to be able to use the ruleset – not to compete with the Baldur’s Gate series, or the like. (snip) Your idea is certainly inetresting, but (as an experienced developper) it seems to me that it`s quite ambitious, specially when you wish to add a kind of AI to it. Making a game realistic with a powerfull AI requires advanced knowledge of AI systems - and a HUGE amount of time. Hope you can make it work !! (but I know the fun is in the Design !!) RiTz21
Tafka Oddfan 09-17-04, 05:02 AM	By the way – anyone have any comments on my idea? It’s the first time I shared it with anyone – so I would love to know your opinion. Think it’s a unique and interesting idea I should follow through with? Think I am a loser? Share, share!! I used to be into programming, tried to program a few games. Even a few RPGs. I never finished any though. :-( You need to be very dedicated, not only to the game concept, but also to creating an optimal design architecture, and to learning new programming methodologies. I hope you've got what it takes, I didn't. But still, I WANT YOUR GAME MAN!!! Ambitious, yes. But it sounds cool, very very cool. Can't wait till version 2 comes out with graphics! Suggestions: Would be cool if you could see pictures of other players on the screen, and of the DM. Just to give the feeling that other players are around you, who are also imagining the action just like you. Also, the game should come with an automatic dice roller. This way I can play on my laptop in the train, where its a bit hard to roll dice. As far as OGL and d20 stuff goes: You cannot distribute a game and promote it as d20 compatible. However, (please correct me if I'm wrong people), my understanding is that WotC own the d20 licence, but they cannot legally copyright the DnD rules themselves because you cannot own the rules of a game, they can only copyright the text they use to explain those rules. So you could make a game based on the DnD rules, but you would not be able to promote it using the d20 concept, or logo. Also, you would not be able to reproduce any text from either the DnD manuals or the SRD. Can anyone else confirm this?