Damage reduction and magic. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Damage reduction and magic. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ahiman
07-08-06, 01:11 AM I had a problem last time I played a player cast magic missle on something with a DR 5/+1. He said that magic overcomes DR and I thought not. Can I get a clarification on this. Thanks.
Someone
07-08-06, 01:15 AM Your DM is correct, DR only applies against physical attacks like swords and arrows. It doesn't work against a fireball, for example. And in this case, it doesn't even work against magic swords and arrows.
Jaeron Dalur
07-08-06, 03:58 AM Your DM is correct, DR only applies against physical attacks like swords and arrows. It doesn't work against a fireball, for example. And in this case, it doesn't even work against magic swords and arrows.
I agree that DR $NUM/+1 is defeated by spells. But in a more general sense, why? This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why assign a damage type to an effect if it doesn't matter? If a spell equals "trumps everything but better spells" then why bother describing crystal shard's damage as slashing (yes I know it's a power and not a spell, and yes I know they already ruled, wrongly, that the fact that it's slashing damage doesn't matter in the least)? I would like a rational reason why damage types for spells don't matter, other than "because the FAQ/Customer Support said so", "because that's how it is", or "because spells should have special exemptions from the rules, just because they are spells".

EDIT: Forgive the rant. It's late and I really shouldn't be posting while tired. I think my main question is valid but it is so encased in rant that it might be hard to see what it is. Feel free to ignore it.
Millenia
07-08-06, 04:28 AM If a spell equals "trumps everything but better spells" then why bother describing crystal shard's damage as slashing (yes I know it's a power and not a spell, and yes I know they already ruled, wrongly, that the fact that it's slashing damage doesn't matter in the least)? I would like a rational reason why damage types for spells don't matter, other than "because the FAQ/Customer Support said so", "because that's how it is", or "because spells should have special exemptions from the rules, just because they are spells".
As long as you don't kill me for citing Complete Psionics...

On page 79, there is a sidebar titled "Metacreativity and Damage Reduction". It states as follows:

Any damage-dealing metacreativity power that specifies piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage does not automatically overcome a creature's damage reduction. Such powers include crystal shard (EPH 89), hail of crystals (EPH 111), swarm of crystals (EPH 34), burrowing bonds (page 79), and crystal storm (page 81).
Accordingly, the sidebar rules that there are exceptions to powers (and, by extension, spells) automatically piercing damage reduction. A reason why powers and spells also automatically pierce damage reduction besides "just because" would be that energy damage (fire, ice, sonic, acid, and electricity) automatically pierce damage reduction as well. Why? Just 'cause. =P Sorry for begging the question, but that's how things are.
Jaeron Dalur
07-08-06, 04:55 AM As long as you don't kill me for citing Complete Psionics...

On page 79, there is a sidebar titled "Metacreativity and Damage Reduction". It states as follows: Why would I kill you for showing me that they came to their senses with that? Good on them. Thanks for showing me that :)
Accordingly, the sidebar rules that there are exceptions to powers (and, by extension, spells) automatically piercing damage reduction. A reason why powers and spells also automatically pierce damage reduction besides "just because" would be that energy damage (fire, ice, sonic, acid, and electricity) automatically pierce damage reduction as well. Why? Just 'cause. =P Sorry for begging the question, but that's how things are. I can understand (almost) why energy damage isn't prevented by it. It just doesn't make sense to me that spells overcome it too. Not your fault though. Maybe I'm just dense and can't see the reasoning behind it (I would even go for a balance reason if I could see why "15 points of damage of an unnamed type from an extrordinary ability" should be worth less than "15 points of damage of an unnamed type from a spell").
Millenia
07-08-06, 05:59 AM Why would I kill you for showing me that they came to their senses with that? Good on them. Thanks for showing me that :)
You're welcome. ^^; I only mention the 'killing' thing because people don't really like Complete Psionics very much, so....

I can understand (almost) why energy damage isn't prevented by it. It just doesn't make sense to me that spells overcome it too. Not your fault though. Maybe I'm just dense and can't see the reasoning behind it (I would even go for a balance reason if I could see why "15 points of damage of an unnamed type from an extrordinary ability" should be worth less than "15 points of damage of an unnamed type from a spell").
Actually, most damaging spells/powers (especially evocation/psychokinesis) do use energy damage in one form or another, or do damage in a way that would bypass DR (such as a psionic Mind Blast), so it makes sense to generalize from "energy damage bypasses DR" to "all magic bypasses DR".

Hope that helped. I'll be off to bed now, so don't expect a reply from me soon again~ ^^;
General_Ridley
07-08-06, 01:28 PM DR applies to physical attacks, and spells and powers that make physical attacks (Whirling Blade, for example).

Energy resistance applies to spells and powers and abilities that use energy (Red Dragon' breath weapon, or Fireball, for example)

Spell/Power Resistance applies to spells and powers that specifically say that Spell/Power Resistance applies (Fireball, for example)
Vanigo
07-09-06, 07:24 PM I agree that DR $NUM/+1 is defeated by spells. But in a more general sense, why? This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why assign a damage type to an effect if it doesn't matter?Becuase sometimes it matters for other reasons. For instance, only slashing damage can cut heads off of hydras. A spell that deals slashing damage (and can be used to sunder) can do it, a spell that does typeless damage can't.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ahiman 07-08-06, 01:11 AM	I had a problem last time I played a player cast magic missle on something with a DR 5/+1. He said that magic overcomes DR and I thought not. Can I get a clarification on this. Thanks.
Someone 07-08-06, 01:15 AM	Your DM is correct, DR only applies against physical attacks like swords and arrows. It doesn't work against a fireball, for example. And in this case, it doesn't even work against magic swords and arrows.
Jaeron Dalur 07-08-06, 03:58 AM	Your DM is correct, DR only applies against physical attacks like swords and arrows. It doesn't work against a fireball, for example. And in this case, it doesn't even work against magic swords and arrows. I agree that DR $NUM/+1 is defeated by spells. But in a more general sense, why? This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why assign a damage type to an effect if it doesn't matter? If a spell equals "trumps everything but better spells" then why bother describing crystal shard's damage as slashing (yes I know it's a power and not a spell, and yes I know they already ruled, wrongly, that the fact that it's slashing damage doesn't matter in the least)? I would like a rational reason why damage types for spells don't matter, other than "because the FAQ/Customer Support said so", "because that's how it is", or "because spells should have special exemptions from the rules, just because they are spells". EDIT: Forgive the rant. It's late and I really shouldn't be posting while tired. I think my main question is valid but it is so encased in rant that it might be hard to see what it is. Feel free to ignore it.
Millenia 07-08-06, 04:28 AM	If a spell equals "trumps everything but better spells" then why bother describing crystal shard's damage as slashing (yes I know it's a power and not a spell, and yes I know they already ruled, wrongly, that the fact that it's slashing damage doesn't matter in the least)? I would like a rational reason why damage types for spells don't matter, other than "because the FAQ/Customer Support said so", "because that's how it is", or "because spells should have special exemptions from the rules, just because they are spells". As long as you don't kill me for citing Complete Psionics... On page 79, there is a sidebar titled "Metacreativity and Damage Reduction". It states as follows: Any damage-dealing metacreativity power that specifies piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage does not automatically overcome a creature's damage reduction. Such powers include crystal shard (EPH 89), hail of crystals (EPH 111), swarm of crystals (EPH 34), burrowing bonds (page 79), and crystal storm (page 81). Accordingly, the sidebar rules that there are exceptions to powers (and, by extension, spells) automatically piercing damage reduction. A reason why powers and spells also automatically pierce damage reduction besides "just because" would be that energy damage (fire, ice, sonic, acid, and electricity) automatically pierce damage reduction as well. Why? Just 'cause. =P Sorry for begging the question, but that's how things are.
Jaeron Dalur 07-08-06, 04:55 AM	As long as you don't kill me for citing Complete Psionics... On page 79, there is a sidebar titled "Metacreativity and Damage Reduction". It states as follows: Why would I kill you for showing me that they came to their senses with that? Good on them. Thanks for showing me that :) Accordingly, the sidebar rules that there are exceptions to powers (and, by extension, spells) automatically piercing damage reduction. A reason why powers and spells also automatically pierce damage reduction besides "just because" would be that energy damage (fire, ice, sonic, acid, and electricity) automatically pierce damage reduction as well. Why? Just 'cause. =P Sorry for begging the question, but that's how things are. I can understand (almost) why energy damage isn't prevented by it. It just doesn't make sense to me that spells overcome it too. Not your fault though. Maybe I'm just dense and can't see the reasoning behind it (I would even go for a balance reason if I could see why "15 points of damage of an unnamed type from an extrordinary ability" should be worth less than "15 points of damage of an unnamed type from a spell").
Millenia 07-08-06, 05:59 AM	Why would I kill you for showing me that they came to their senses with that? Good on them. Thanks for showing me that :) You're welcome. ^^; I only mention the 'killing' thing because people don't really like Complete Psionics very much, so.... I can understand (almost) why energy damage isn't prevented by it. It just doesn't make sense to me that spells overcome it too. Not your fault though. Maybe I'm just dense and can't see the reasoning behind it (I would even go for a balance reason if I could see why "15 points of damage of an unnamed type from an extrordinary ability" should be worth less than "15 points of damage of an unnamed type from a spell"). Actually, most damaging spells/powers (especially evocation/psychokinesis) do use energy damage in one form or another, or do damage in a way that would bypass DR (such as a psionic Mind Blast), so it makes sense to generalize from "energy damage bypasses DR" to "all magic bypasses DR". Hope that helped. I'll be off to bed now, so don't expect a reply from me soon again~ ^^;
General_Ridley 07-08-06, 01:28 PM	DR applies to physical attacks, and spells and powers that make physical attacks (Whirling Blade, for example). Energy resistance applies to spells and powers and abilities that use energy (Red Dragon' breath weapon, or Fireball, for example) Spell/Power Resistance applies to spells and powers that specifically say that Spell/Power Resistance applies (Fireball, for example)
Vanigo 07-09-06, 07:24 PM	I agree that DR $NUM/+1 is defeated by spells. But in a more general sense, why? This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why assign a damage type to an effect if it doesn't matter?Becuase sometimes it matters for other reasons. For instance, only slashing damage can cut heads off of hydras. A spell that deals slashing damage (and can be used to sunder) can do it, a spell that does typeless damage can't.