Darkvision and a Mirror [Archive] - Wizards Community

Darkvision and a Mirror [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Malchius
12-11-07, 02:38 PM I didn't know where else to put this but say an adventurer group is travelling through a pitch black dungeon without a light source, the Orc rogue, decides to scout, he comes to a sharp corner and can hear noises. He decides to look around with his mirror, can he see around as Darkvision says you "can see normally" even though there is no light for it to reflect.

How do you describe the mirror if you can't see around the corner?
Seeker95
12-11-07, 03:26 PM I do not worry my pretty little head about physics with darkvision.

Darkvision says you can see normally.
Let him see normally.
Even with a mirror.

(Thank the gods and the designers that darkvision is getting changed in 4e. Or at least, PC races have low-light vision instead of darkvision.)
toucanbuzz
12-11-07, 03:32 PM I don't think he can do it.

First, Darkvision allows one to see as if with normal sight, limited to black and white.

But, a mirror needs light to reflect an image, and therefore in total darkness what the orc rogue proposes cannot physically occur. He can see his mirror just fine, but it will give no image, instead appearing as a black blob since no light is being reflected from it.
ArcTan
12-11-07, 03:34 PM Good catch.

Upon thinking about it, mirrors probably should work in Darkvision, if only for consistency with other things about Darkvision. Darkvision acts like some kind of surrogate light source -- it has to interact with objects' ability to reflect light somehow, or you wouldn't even be able to see shades of light and dark. (If Darkvision were "sonar-sense", for instance, it could perfectly tell you the shape of the book, but would never allow you to read it -- the dark letters on the light page would look exactly the same to sonar.)

Thus, Darkvision probably works like an imaginary radiation that's radiated constantly from all directions and that interacts with objects' surfaces the way a single-wavelength light source would.

Note, though, that the description of Darkvision absolutely *does* mean that *shadows* can't exist in Darkvision, which also creates interesting effects (it's impossible to conceal yourself in the shadows near someone with Darkvision).
Malchius
12-11-07, 03:57 PM thanks, I think I'll allow it to work. Possibly, ArcTan's believe in the radiation is right, although it may cause more compliations with how it's radiated, from what and then why?

But maybe I should abandon science and just keep it to fantasy.
tharivol266
12-11-07, 04:18 PM as i read darkvision it allows you to see edges of things but not their details so like with a book you could see every page but each page would be blank to you, you couldnt admire a painting, and lastly you couldnt see a reflection in a mirror. just say that it is a flat smooth object with the dimensions that you wish
Amaril
12-11-07, 04:54 PM I don't think he can do it.

First, Darkvision allows one to see as if with normal sight, limited to black and white.

But, a mirror needs light to reflect an image, and therefore in total darkness what the orc rogue proposes cannot physically occur. He can see his mirror just fine, but it will give no image, instead appearing as a black blob since no light is being reflected from it.

I agree. Eyes require light to hit the receptor cells in order to see. We don't actually see objects; we see the light reflecting off of those objects. As such, darkvision itself should not work according to normal sight. Since darkvision cannot be explained by normal sight (duh), it's assumed that what you see are the objects rather than the light reflecting from the objects. As such, darkvision would allow you to only see the object, not the lack of light not reflecting from it. ;)
ArcTan
12-11-07, 05:13 PM thanks, I think I'll allow it to work. Possibly, ArcTan's believe in the radiation is right, although it may cause more compliations with how it's radiated, from what and then why?

But maybe I should abandon science and just keep it to fantasy.

I don't necessarily mean there *is* radiation. You can just think of it as a metaphor, if you want.

The point is Darkvision has to simulate light in that respect or you wouldn't be able to see light and dark tones at all, just shapes. If Darkvision doesn't simulate light and light's ability to interact with different surfaces, then you couldn't read a book using Darkvision, or tell the difference between a black shirt and a white shirt -- and Darkvision clearly says you can.
Grumman
12-11-07, 05:18 PM In the past, the darkvision possessed by at least some races was just an ability to see infrared radiation. If you wanted to return to that explanation, I'm pretty sure the untreated glass of the mirror would absorb infrared radiation instead of allowing it to be reflected.
theblackpiece
12-11-07, 06:37 PM eh dont worry about it. just let him see.
tharivol266
12-11-07, 06:46 PM If Darkvision doesn't simulate light and light's ability to interact with different surfaces, then you couldn't read a book using Darkvision, or tell the difference between a black shirt and a white shirt -- and Darkvision clearly says you can.

pg 292 of the dmg says darkvision cannot distinguish color

i believe that somewhere there is a picture of a mindflayer in a natural stone looking background as viewed with darkvision and it is just lines not details like if it was a black and white photo.

in some book (i just checked dungeonscape and races of stone and dragon and didnt find it) is a paint/ink that glows in darkvision and said i believe: its the only way to read with darkvision.

sorry i couldnt pin these down but i have a party to go to.
Moparfanatic
12-11-07, 07:39 PM For those of you that have used them, night-vision goggle are kinda like darkvision. in total darkness some models can emit a small IR light that eventually gets reflected back to the goggles to be "seen".
Maybe you can say that those Darkvision eyes have cones/rods that duplicate a similar effect...

However it all boils down to you are the DM it does what you says it does. Just remember what you decree, it might come back and haunt you.
IAmTheScum
12-11-07, 08:13 PM For those of you that have used them, night-vision goggle are kinda like darkvision.

You've used darkvision? :confused:
JulesCARV
12-11-07, 08:35 PM The interesting thing in this case is that darkvision abruptly cuts off at 60 feet (usually). So, what if a mirror is facing directly toward you, and you're look at it with darkvision? My interpretation is that when the mirror comes into darkvision range at 60 feet, you can see the frame in monochrome, just like watching a black and white movie in 3D, but the mirror itself shows nothing but black. If you're 50 feet from the mirror, you darkvision goes to the mirror, then "bounces off" 10 feet back, but doesn't hit anything, so you see nothing but blackness, just as if you had unobstructed darkvision out to 60 feet.

If you then walk toward the mirror, once you get to 30 feet, you suddenly see yourself in monochrome, since you're finally within your own darkvision range via the mirror's reflection.
ArcTan
12-11-07, 08:48 PM pg 292 of the dmg says darkvision cannot distinguish color

i believe that somewhere there is a picture of a mindflayer in a natural stone looking background as viewed with darkvision and it is just lines not details like if it was a black and white photo.

I think that would be a more sensible way to rule Darkvision, but I'd be reluctant to impose what would be a pretty harsh penalty on players (inability to read or distinguish tones) when the rules do say Darkvision works just like "normal sight".

in some book (i just checked dungeonscape and races of stone and dragon and didnt find it) is a paint/ink that glows in darkvision and said i believe: its the only way to read with darkvision.

Google tells me that you're probably thinking of Mongoose's Ultimate Equipment Guide, a 3rd-party product (i.e. it only tells you Mongoose's *opinion* about Darkvision, not an official ruling).

sorry i couldnt pin these down but i have a party to go to.

Lucky bastard.
ArcTan
12-11-07, 08:49 PM The interesting thing in this case is that darkvision abruptly cuts off at 60 feet (usually). So, what if a mirror is facing directly toward you, and you're look at it with darkvision? My interpretation is that when the mirror comes into darkvision range at 60 feet, you can see the frame in monochrome, just like watching a black and white movie in 3D, but the mirror itself shows nothing but black. If you're 50 feet from the mirror, you darkvision goes to the mirror, then "bounces off" 10 feet back, but doesn't hit anything, so you see nothing but blackness, just as if you had unobstructed darkvision out to 60 feet.

If you then walk toward the mirror, once you get to 30 feet, you suddenly see yourself in monochrome, since you're finally within your own darkvision range via the mirror's reflection.

Wonky, but it is perfectly logical, and an important way to prevent people using this ruling to "cheat" Darkvision's natural range in an illogical way.
Anguish2
12-11-07, 08:57 PM Really, given the rules don't answer this question, you have to ask yourself what the intent is. Is the intent that someone with darkvision who wears goggles or lenses of any sort is rendered blind because he sees the goggles, not THROUGH the goggles? Is the intent that a sheet of glass should block darkvision? Is the intent that a wall of force should block darkvision? Should being underwater render a darkvision-enabled swimmer immediately blind?

In a world where we specifically have low-light vision, and the description of darkvision is that you see normally in situations completely lacking in light, it's pretty clear to me. Physics aside, darkvision behaves like vision in all ways excepting that it doesn't require light to be used. Period.

Darkvision is impacted by the same things that impact normal vision. It's not impacted by things that don't impact normal vision. You can see reflections in a mirror, as long as the total distance to the reflected image doesn't exceed your darkvision limit.
ArcTan
12-11-07, 09:28 PM ...Also that you can't hide in the shadows because Darkvision doesn't have shadows. (Got to keep throwing that in there, because it gets overlooked.)
Amaril
12-11-07, 09:33 PM Really, given the rules don't answer this question, you have to ask yourself what the intent is. Is the intent that someone with darkvision who wears goggles or lenses of any sort is rendered blind because he sees the goggles, not THROUGH the goggles? Is the intent that a sheet of glass should block darkvision? Is the intent that a wall of force should block darkvision? Should being underwater render a darkvision-enabled swimmer immediately blind?
Seeing through glass isn't the problem. It's seeing a reflection of light that isn't present off of a surface behind the glass.
ArcTan
12-11-07, 09:43 PM In order to see through glass, whatever you're using to see has to be able to travel through glass as though it were light.

In order to see light and dark and, for instance, read, whatever you're using to see has to be absorbed by dark materials and reflected by light materials as though it were light.

Reflecting off a mirror is the same thing. For Darkvision to work *at all* there's something there that's *acting* like light, whatever it is -- and there's no reason to say it doesn't treat a mirror the same way it treats a printed page or a window.
boozerker
12-11-07, 10:09 PM I'd say there are shadows and reflections and ceiling light, and there are no scientific explanations but if you ask a few shamans, they might inform you what darkvision creatures really see is tiny emanations of light from the spirit inherent in rock, earth, wood, mirrors, and the living. Or, maybe the shaman will just babble incoherently. (Maybe...unless they eat you)

But this brings up an interesting case. What if the Orc rogue were to look at a medusa in complete darkness? Would it turn to stone? What about party members who can't see the medusa? Does the medusa and its victim have to see each other for the gaze to work?
tharivol266
12-11-07, 11:15 PM But this brings up an interesting case. What if the Orc rogue were to look at a medusa in complete darkness? Would it turn to stone? What about party members who can't see the medusa? Does the medusa and its victim have to see each other for the gaze to work?

Raw says that gaze attacks work the same for darkvision but for non-dark vision in the blackness it doesnt because you must be able to see them.

the medusa wouldnt have to see the orc to turn him to stone because if you read the description of most gaze attacks its anything within range x has to make the save. it is about you seeing its eyes rather than it looking longingly into yours.

the darkbision writing stuff was wotc because i never look at 3rd party stuff
ArcTan
12-12-07, 12:45 AM I'd say there are shadows and reflections and ceiling light, and there are no scientific explanations but if you ask a few shamans, they might inform you what darkvision creatures really see is tiny emanations of light from the spirit inherent in rock, earth, wood, mirrors, and the living. Or, maybe the shaman will just babble incoherently. (Maybe...unless they eat you)

There can't be shadows -- shadows exist because light is coming from one side and not the other. Since Darkvision in no way actually gives you a way to determine what side the "light" is coming from -- and an explanation like yours *stipulates* that the light must be coming from all sides -- there can't be visible shadows, because everything is "glowing" slightly.

Oh, hell, don't take my word for it. It's *in* the rules:

Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

I.e. concealment from shadows simply doesn't work in range of Darkvision.

But this brings up an interesting case. What if the Orc rogue were to look at a medusa in complete darkness? Would it turn to stone? What about party members who can't see the medusa? Does the medusa and its victim have to see each other for the gaze to work?

Darkvision allows gaze attacks to work. It says so in the description.
boozerker
12-12-07, 01:21 AM There can't be shadows -- shadows exist because light is coming from one side and not the other. Since Darkvision in no way actually gives you a way to determine what side the "light" is coming from -- and an explanation like yours *stipulates* that the light must be coming from all sides -- there can't be visible shadows, because everything is "glowing" slightly.
*Got me* :)

Ah well, it makes sense if you can see in the dark, well a shadow is dark isn't it? So you wouldn't see it and hide in shadows is useless against you. Though it'd be funny seeing a PC crouched near the floor in plain sight believing they are really hiding in shadows.
Moparfanatic
12-13-07, 11:36 PM You've used darkvision? :confused:

Alright, alright... you got me :P ... I wasn't clear enough with the opening sentence...

When I first used NVG in the service It kinda brought to mind how they discribed Darkvision... I am sure enough of you have seen combat footage on some form of visual media to see what I was talking about.
Tanel
12-13-07, 11:53 PM thanks, I think I'll allow it to work. Possibly, ArcTan's believe in the radiation is right, although it may cause more compliations with how it's radiated, from what and then why?

But maybe I should abandon science and just keep it to fantasy.

Yeah, I think you have it there. I'm probably wrong, but most creatures with Darkvision have some type of connection to the arcane and/or "dark" races. (Heavy with the quotes on "dark".) Such as fae and others.

Therefore I would look at it less scientificaly and more like this: The ability to see in the dark (Darkvision) is a quasi-magical legacy from their creator/ancestors. Be it from their race being created from a diety of darkness, the first generations of their race needed to see in the dark to survive or being so connected to nature and the arcane it left a minor ability to see in darkness.

As such, I would say it would only affect the being and thus a mirror would not work since the mirror itself does not have the ability to reflect in this 'realm' of sight.

EDIT: In this case, there may be cause for mages to create Darkvision Mirrors...................

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Malchius 12-11-07, 02:38 PM	I didn't know where else to put this but say an adventurer group is travelling through a pitch black dungeon without a light source, the Orc rogue, decides to scout, he comes to a sharp corner and can hear noises. He decides to look around with his mirror, can he see around as Darkvision says you "can see normally" even though there is no light for it to reflect. How do you describe the mirror if you can't see around the corner?
Seeker95 12-11-07, 03:26 PM	I do not worry my pretty little head about physics with darkvision. Darkvision says you can see normally. Let him see normally. Even with a mirror. (Thank the gods and the designers that darkvision is getting changed in 4e. Or at least, PC races have low-light vision instead of darkvision.)
toucanbuzz 12-11-07, 03:32 PM	I don't think he can do it. First, Darkvision allows one to see as if with normal sight, limited to black and white. But, a mirror needs light to reflect an image, and therefore in total darkness what the orc rogue proposes cannot physically occur. He can see his mirror just fine, but it will give no image, instead appearing as a black blob since no light is being reflected from it.
ArcTan 12-11-07, 03:34 PM	Good catch. Upon thinking about it, mirrors probably should work in Darkvision, if only for consistency with other things about Darkvision. Darkvision acts like some kind of surrogate light source -- it has to interact with objects' ability to reflect light somehow, or you wouldn't even be able to see shades of light and dark. (If Darkvision were "sonar-sense", for instance, it could perfectly tell you the shape of the book, but would never allow you to read it -- the dark letters on the light page would look exactly the same to sonar.) Thus, Darkvision probably works like an imaginary radiation that's radiated constantly from all directions and that interacts with objects' surfaces the way a single-wavelength light source would. Note, though, that the description of Darkvision absolutely does mean that shadows can't exist in Darkvision, which also creates interesting effects (it's impossible to conceal yourself in the shadows near someone with Darkvision).
Malchius 12-11-07, 03:57 PM	thanks, I think I'll allow it to work. Possibly, ArcTan's believe in the radiation is right, although it may cause more compliations with how it's radiated, from what and then why? But maybe I should abandon science and just keep it to fantasy.
tharivol266 12-11-07, 04:18 PM	as i read darkvision it allows you to see edges of things but not their details so like with a book you could see every page but each page would be blank to you, you couldnt admire a painting, and lastly you couldnt see a reflection in a mirror. just say that it is a flat smooth object with the dimensions that you wish
Amaril 12-11-07, 04:54 PM	I don't think he can do it. First, Darkvision allows one to see as if with normal sight, limited to black and white. But, a mirror needs light to reflect an image, and therefore in total darkness what the orc rogue proposes cannot physically occur. He can see his mirror just fine, but it will give no image, instead appearing as a black blob since no light is being reflected from it. I agree. Eyes require light to hit the receptor cells in order to see. We don't actually see objects; we see the light reflecting off of those objects. As such, darkvision itself should not work according to normal sight. Since darkvision cannot be explained by normal sight (duh), it's assumed that what you see are the objects rather than the light reflecting from the objects. As such, darkvision would allow you to only see the object, not the lack of light not reflecting from it. ;)
ArcTan 12-11-07, 05:13 PM	thanks, I think I'll allow it to work. Possibly, ArcTan's believe in the radiation is right, although it may cause more compliations with how it's radiated, from what and then why? But maybe I should abandon science and just keep it to fantasy. I don't necessarily mean there is radiation. You can just think of it as a metaphor, if you want. The point is Darkvision has to simulate light in that respect or you wouldn't be able to see light and dark tones at all, just shapes. If Darkvision doesn't simulate light and light's ability to interact with different surfaces, then you couldn't read a book using Darkvision, or tell the difference between a black shirt and a white shirt -- and Darkvision clearly says you can.
Grumman 12-11-07, 05:18 PM	In the past, the darkvision possessed by at least some races was just an ability to see infrared radiation. If you wanted to return to that explanation, I'm pretty sure the untreated glass of the mirror would absorb infrared radiation instead of allowing it to be reflected.
theblackpiece 12-11-07, 06:37 PM	eh dont worry about it. just let him see.
tharivol266 12-11-07, 06:46 PM	If Darkvision doesn't simulate light and light's ability to interact with different surfaces, then you couldn't read a book using Darkvision, or tell the difference between a black shirt and a white shirt -- and Darkvision clearly says you can. pg 292 of the dmg says darkvision cannot distinguish color i believe that somewhere there is a picture of a mindflayer in a natural stone looking background as viewed with darkvision and it is just lines not details like if it was a black and white photo. in some book (i just checked dungeonscape and races of stone and dragon and didnt find it) is a paint/ink that glows in darkvision and said i believe: its the only way to read with darkvision. sorry i couldnt pin these down but i have a party to go to.
Moparfanatic 12-11-07, 07:39 PM	For those of you that have used them, night-vision goggle are kinda like darkvision. in total darkness some models can emit a small IR light that eventually gets reflected back to the goggles to be "seen". Maybe you can say that those Darkvision eyes have cones/rods that duplicate a similar effect... However it all boils down to you are the DM it does what you says it does. Just remember what you decree, it might come back and haunt you.
IAmTheScum 12-11-07, 08:13 PM	For those of you that have used them, night-vision goggle are kinda like darkvision. You've used darkvision? :confused:
JulesCARV 12-11-07, 08:35 PM	The interesting thing in this case is that darkvision abruptly cuts off at 60 feet (usually). So, what if a mirror is facing directly toward you, and you're look at it with darkvision? My interpretation is that when the mirror comes into darkvision range at 60 feet, you can see the frame in monochrome, just like watching a black and white movie in 3D, but the mirror itself shows nothing but black. If you're 50 feet from the mirror, you darkvision goes to the mirror, then "bounces off" 10 feet back, but doesn't hit anything, so you see nothing but blackness, just as if you had unobstructed darkvision out to 60 feet. If you then walk toward the mirror, once you get to 30 feet, you suddenly see yourself in monochrome, since you're finally within your own darkvision range via the mirror's reflection.
ArcTan 12-11-07, 08:48 PM	pg 292 of the dmg says darkvision cannot distinguish color i believe that somewhere there is a picture of a mindflayer in a natural stone looking background as viewed with darkvision and it is just lines not details like if it was a black and white photo. I think that would be a more sensible way to rule Darkvision, but I'd be reluctant to impose what would be a pretty harsh penalty on players (inability to read or distinguish tones) when the rules do say Darkvision works just like "normal sight". in some book (i just checked dungeonscape and races of stone and dragon and didnt find it) is a paint/ink that glows in darkvision and said i believe: its the only way to read with darkvision. Google tells me that you're probably thinking of Mongoose's Ultimate Equipment Guide, a 3rd-party product (i.e. it only tells you Mongoose's opinion about Darkvision, not an official ruling). sorry i couldnt pin these down but i have a party to go to. Lucky bastard.
ArcTan 12-11-07, 08:49 PM	The interesting thing in this case is that darkvision abruptly cuts off at 60 feet (usually). So, what if a mirror is facing directly toward you, and you're look at it with darkvision? My interpretation is that when the mirror comes into darkvision range at 60 feet, you can see the frame in monochrome, just like watching a black and white movie in 3D, but the mirror itself shows nothing but black. If you're 50 feet from the mirror, you darkvision goes to the mirror, then "bounces off" 10 feet back, but doesn't hit anything, so you see nothing but blackness, just as if you had unobstructed darkvision out to 60 feet. If you then walk toward the mirror, once you get to 30 feet, you suddenly see yourself in monochrome, since you're finally within your own darkvision range via the mirror's reflection. Wonky, but it is perfectly logical, and an important way to prevent people using this ruling to "cheat" Darkvision's natural range in an illogical way.
Anguish2 12-11-07, 08:57 PM	Really, given the rules don't answer this question, you have to ask yourself what the intent is. Is the intent that someone with darkvision who wears goggles or lenses of any sort is rendered blind because he sees the goggles, not THROUGH the goggles? Is the intent that a sheet of glass should block darkvision? Is the intent that a wall of force should block darkvision? Should being underwater render a darkvision-enabled swimmer immediately blind? In a world where we specifically have low-light vision, and the description of darkvision is that you see normally in situations completely lacking in light, it's pretty clear to me. Physics aside, darkvision behaves like vision in all ways excepting that it doesn't require light to be used. Period. Darkvision is impacted by the same things that impact normal vision. It's not impacted by things that don't impact normal vision. You can see reflections in a mirror, as long as the total distance to the reflected image doesn't exceed your darkvision limit.
ArcTan 12-11-07, 09:28 PM	...Also that you can't hide in the shadows because Darkvision doesn't have shadows. (Got to keep throwing that in there, because it gets overlooked.)
Amaril 12-11-07, 09:33 PM	Really, given the rules don't answer this question, you have to ask yourself what the intent is. Is the intent that someone with darkvision who wears goggles or lenses of any sort is rendered blind because he sees the goggles, not THROUGH the goggles? Is the intent that a sheet of glass should block darkvision? Is the intent that a wall of force should block darkvision? Should being underwater render a darkvision-enabled swimmer immediately blind? Seeing through glass isn't the problem. It's seeing a reflection of light that isn't present off of a surface behind the glass.
ArcTan 12-11-07, 09:43 PM	In order to see through glass, whatever you're using to see has to be able to travel through glass as though it were light. In order to see light and dark and, for instance, read, whatever you're using to see has to be absorbed by dark materials and reflected by light materials as though it were light. Reflecting off a mirror is the same thing. For Darkvision to work at all there's something there that's acting like light, whatever it is -- and there's no reason to say it doesn't treat a mirror the same way it treats a printed page or a window.
boozerker 12-11-07, 10:09 PM	I'd say there are shadows and reflections and ceiling light, and there are no scientific explanations but if you ask a few shamans, they might inform you what darkvision creatures really see is tiny emanations of light from the spirit inherent in rock, earth, wood, mirrors, and the living. Or, maybe the shaman will just babble incoherently. (Maybe...unless they eat you) But this brings up an interesting case. What if the Orc rogue were to look at a medusa in complete darkness? Would it turn to stone? What about party members who can't see the medusa? Does the medusa and its victim have to see each other for the gaze to work?
tharivol266 12-11-07, 11:15 PM	But this brings up an interesting case. What if the Orc rogue were to look at a medusa in complete darkness? Would it turn to stone? What about party members who can't see the medusa? Does the medusa and its victim have to see each other for the gaze to work? Raw says that gaze attacks work the same for darkvision but for non-dark vision in the blackness it doesnt because you must be able to see them. the medusa wouldnt have to see the orc to turn him to stone because if you read the description of most gaze attacks its anything within range x has to make the save. it is about you seeing its eyes rather than it looking longingly into yours. the darkbision writing stuff was wotc because i never look at 3rd party stuff
ArcTan 12-12-07, 12:45 AM	I'd say there are shadows and reflections and ceiling light, and there are no scientific explanations but if you ask a few shamans, they might inform you what darkvision creatures really see is tiny emanations of light from the spirit inherent in rock, earth, wood, mirrors, and the living. Or, maybe the shaman will just babble incoherently. (Maybe...unless they eat you) There can't be shadows -- shadows exist because light is coming from one side and not the other. Since Darkvision in no way actually gives you a way to determine what side the "light" is coming from -- and an explanation like yours stipulates that the light must be coming from all sides -- there can't be visible shadows, because everything is "glowing" slightly. Oh, hell, don't take my word for it. It's in the rules: Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover. I.e. concealment from shadows simply doesn't work in range of Darkvision. But this brings up an interesting case. What if the Orc rogue were to look at a medusa in complete darkness? Would it turn to stone? What about party members who can't see the medusa? Does the medusa and its victim have to see each other for the gaze to work? Darkvision allows gaze attacks to work. It says so in the description.
boozerker 12-12-07, 01:21 AM	There can't be shadows -- shadows exist because light is coming from one side and not the other. Since Darkvision in no way actually gives you a way to determine what side the "light" is coming from -- and an explanation like yours stipulates that the light must be coming from all sides -- there can't be visible shadows, because everything is "glowing" slightly. Got me :) Ah well, it makes sense if you can see in the dark, well a shadow is dark isn't it? So you wouldn't see it and hide in shadows is useless against you. Though it'd be funny seeing a PC crouched near the floor in plain sight believing they are really hiding in shadows.
Moparfanatic 12-13-07, 11:36 PM	You've used darkvision? :confused: Alright, alright... you got me :P ... I wasn't clear enough with the opening sentence... When I first used NVG in the service It kinda brought to mind how they discribed Darkvision... I am sure enough of you have seen combat footage on some form of visual media to see what I was talking about.
Tanel 12-13-07, 11:53 PM	thanks, I think I'll allow it to work. Possibly, ArcTan's believe in the radiation is right, although it may cause more compliations with how it's radiated, from what and then why? But maybe I should abandon science and just keep it to fantasy. Yeah, I think you have it there. I'm probably wrong, but most creatures with Darkvision have some type of connection to the arcane and/or "dark" races. (Heavy with the quotes on "dark".) Such as fae and others. Therefore I would look at it less scientificaly and more like this: The ability to see in the dark (Darkvision) is a quasi-magical legacy from their creator/ancestors. Be it from their race being created from a diety of darkness, the first generations of their race needed to see in the dark to survive or being so connected to nature and the arcane it left a minor ability to see in darkness. As such, I would say it would only affect the being and thus a mirror would not work since the mirror itself does not have the ability to reflect in this 'realm' of sight. EDIT: In this case, there may be cause for mages to create Darkvision Mirrors...................