Post/Author/DateTime	Post
d20diceroller 03-28-07, 11:28 AM	I have a Paladin in my group and I am pretty sure they are going to rely on detect evil throughout the campaign. I understand that paladins are able to detect evil, but considering that Ravenloft as a campaign is shrouded in mystery and mysterious characters it seems to me that detect evil has the potential to act as a spoiler. What would be a good way to rule detect evil without completely nerfing the paladin. I can already tell if I nerf things the table is going to just groan audibly, not to mention the potential attitude from the paladin. I was thinking of saying something along the lines of "Considering that the paladin is in a land dripping with evil, and good is basically gasping for breath here, you are relatively sure that this person is what they seem." Although, I tried that once and the paladin balked severely, with "No, I DETECT EVIL." *sigh* Help!
roderickvd 03-28-07, 11:48 AM	Paladins indeed have Detect Magic as a spell-like ability. Remember that casting Detect Magic can well be regarded as an offensive action. Non-spellcasters might totally freak out if someone starts uttering magic. And even to spellcasters it would seem totally inappropriate to cast something on or near them without having been asked. I would explain this to my players, and have it reflect in the NPC's attitude if they would go through with it. Then, remember that the amount of information that is acquired depends on the number of rounds the spell is being cast. After a single round (6 seconds), the paladin can only detect if there's any evil within 60 ft at all. He needs another round to count the number of sources. And then another round to locate those sources and read their power. All in all, that's almost half a minute of spellcasting. I don't think that my NPCs would just stand by and wait (or continue their conversation) while that's happening.
Sysane 03-28-07, 11:51 AM	I changed it for my game. I use a lot from Heroes of Horror and swaped out the paladin's detect evil ability for detect taint. Most beings will have some form of taint which would slow the paladin down a tad. You may also want to look at White Wolf's Ravenloft campaign setting. They have rules and mechanics on how things like detect evil and similar abilities are changed and dampered while in the Demiplane of Dread.
Selgard 03-28-07, 12:11 PM	Put in a couple of folks who flag evil, but who he can't catch doin any evil act. (evil is a mind set, not just a set of actions). Then when he nails the guy, have Ye Olde God teach him the better of his behavior. Also: go read http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm and apply it literally.
d20diceroller 03-28-07, 01:20 PM	All great ideas. I can see how it could be totally inappropriate to just start casting magic all over the place. Might not be the best way to introduce yourself.
StoneStokes 03-28-07, 01:36 PM	What we are doing in our game is that the detect evil ability is usable a number of times per day equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus (if any). This means he will be probably be able to use it somewhere between 2 and 4 times per day.
Malraux 03-28-07, 02:00 PM	Remind the paladin that evil does not mean freely smiteable. Just because you meet a person with an evil taint, it doesn't mean that you can slay him as you wish. In addition, does detecting evil really give anything away? Madam Eva is CN, and while the vistani are evil, they are not legitimate targets. That said, detect taint fits the EtCR flavor a lot better.
roderickvd 03-28-07, 02:05 PM	In addition, does detecting evil really give anything away? Madam Eva is CN, and while the vistani are evil, they are not legitimate targets. I agree. Look at RHoD or Mysteries of the Moonsea. There's lots of evil people who aren't necessarily interested in conquering the world, but rather have narcistic, selfish traits or a negative outlook on life. I think it's important for players to know those fine lines, especially in modules and campaigns where this is an issue.
pukunui 03-28-07, 06:03 PM	You could also just make it so that the very land itself detects as evil or that there's just so much evil in Barovia that the paladin can't distinguish between any individuals. He just gets blasted with one big overwhelming evil aura and can't single out any individual people or something. Someone else suggested that when this same question arose a while back in a different thread. Dunno if it will work for you or not.
Malraux 03-28-07, 06:43 PM	If it were the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, yes.
krichaiushii 03-28-07, 06:51 PM	pukunui beat me to my suggestion. EVERYTHING in Ravenloft radiates evil.
pukunui 03-28-07, 07:09 PM	If it were the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, yes. Does it matter? The DM could just rule that everything in Barovia radiates evil. Nowhere does it say, "You are not allowed to use the 'everything radiates evil' rule for the paladin's detect evil ability unless you are playing in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting".
Sepsis 03-28-07, 08:29 PM	I know some of these points have been covered, but I may need to address them again... Your first obstacle is how have you been treating their Detect Evil ability so far. Many Players will balk if you suddenly change the way a spell (or spell-like ability) performs. If you are just starting your Campaign then you can set the rules now and make it less of a kill joy (have the ability detect Pathos instead of Ethos...my favorite, have limited use, or maybe be obvious and take time). If you have been running the Characters and now the ability seems to be a problem, just remember it isn't. As has been said someone may be Evil, but never perform an Evil act. As ststed just being Evil is not a license to kill. I wouldn't sweat it, in fact set up some encounters where at first they may use the ability as a way to quickly select targets just to suddenly find themselves the object of disdain and distrust for acting without soild motives.
d20diceroller 03-28-07, 10:24 PM	I know some of these points have been covered, but I may need to address them again... Your first obstacle is how have you been treating their Detect Evil ability so far. Many Players will balk if you suddenly change the way a spell (or spell-like ability) performs. If you are just starting your Campaign then you can set the rules now and make it less of a kill joy (have the ability detect Pathos instead of Ethos...my favorite, have limited use, or maybe be obvious and take time). If you have been running the Characters and now the ability seems to be a problem, just remember it isn't. As has been said someone may be Evil, but never perform an Evil act. As ststed just being Evil is not a license to kill. I wouldn't sweat it, in fact set up some encounters where at first they may use the ability as a way to quickly select targets just to suddenly find themselves the object of disdain and distrust for acting without soild motives. We have only met for two games so far. Detect evil only came up once, so next time I think I will rule it as written literally and take into account all the different factors adding up to the evil in Barovia affecting detect evil. I'll have to give it some serious thought.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-28-07, 10:33 PM	What things do you anticipate actually being an issue if Detect Evil is freely available? I mean, as-written, there aren't really all that many "gray" NPCs to be had in Barovia. The evil guys tend to be pretty obviously evil, to the point that using Detect Evil on them is really just playing Captain Obvious. Madam Eva is about the only exception to that.
StoneStokes 03-28-07, 10:41 PM	... As has been said someone may be Evil, but never perform an Evil act... I don't get it. How can one be evil without performing evil acts? If indeed that is possible, is it also possible to be good without performing good acts? Can one be lawful without acting lawful? I know this has been discussed on these boards ad naseum, but I am genuinely curious about this point of view.
pukunui 03-28-07, 10:48 PM	I don't get it. How can one be evil without performing evil acts?Hmm, how to put this ... In real life, I don't believe we can judge whether someone is good or evil - we can only judge the goodness/evilness (or lawfulness/unlawfulness) of their actions. Although the d&d alignment system is too simplistic for that level of morality, I would still argue that it's possible for someone to be evil without ever acting evil. If you've imagined murdering so-and-so a thousand times, but you've never gone through with it out of fear of being caught or something, then, in a d&d sense, you'd be evil. In this case, you'd be Lawful Evil ... I don't think you could be Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil without having actually committed evil (or unlawful) acts. EDIT: Actually, no, maybe in the context of the d&d alignment system, someone who thinks evil thoughts but never acts on them (and, conversely, someone who thinks good thoughts but never acts on them) would be True Neutral. So I'd say, then, that it's not possible for a d&d character to be evil without committing evil acts.
StoneStokes 03-28-07, 10:50 PM	I don't get it. How can one be evil without performing evil acts? If indeed that is possible, is it also possible to be good without performing good acts? Can one be lawful without acting lawful? I know this has been discussed on these boards ad naseum, but I am genuinely curious about this point of view. So as to not derail this thread, I have created a seperate discussion of this topic here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11919831#post11919831). Edit: pukunui, I hope you don't mind; I've quoted you in that other thread and given my response there. StoneStokes. Re-Edit: and then you go and edit your response! :)
pukunui 03-28-07, 11:11 PM	Edit: pukunui, I hope you don't mind; I've quoted you in that other thread and given my response there. StoneStokes.No worries. Re-Edit: and then you go and edit your response! :)Sorry.
Malraux 03-29-07, 12:42 AM	Does it matter? The DM could just rule that everything in Barovia radiates evil. Nowhere does it say, "You are not allowed to use the 'everything radiates evil' rule for the paladin's detect evil ability unless you are playing in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting". I'm not saying you can't. But the presumption of EtCR is the rules as detailed in the rule books. So for things radiating evil, that would be the effects detailed in the Detect Evil spell, so evil creatures, spells or items, or the lingering aura of their passing. Though of course the DM may overrule this at his pleasure.
Mystic Theurge 03-29-07, 01:03 AM	You could make the "evil" the paladin detects so overwhelming that it actually stuns the character during the second round of detection, before the character is able to know precisely who the evil creature is. Because the character is stunned, that makes him vulnerable, and perhaps wary of attempting to detect evil for every single encounter. It also ends the effect. I would probably lean away from the entire realm radiating evil as this seems to penalize the character for having a useful benefit. However, if you do decide to take this route, perhaps you could make it an underlying effect so that the paladin would have to concentrate further to get any more details. He may even have to concentrate for 3 rounds before he gets any details if the entire realm is evil, perhaps getting a response like "too many auras to count" for the 2nd round of concentration.
CreepingCharly 03-29-07, 11:37 AM	I tried to mitigate this a bit IMC by saying that when the paladin Detects Evil that his eyes glow bright gold. Since it is a supernatural or spell-like ability (not 100% on which) I do not believe that there is any verbal casting component required. With this visual cue he can't go around constantly Detecting Evil on everyone, without people realizing what he is doing resulting in people getting miffed. My players first said that I was gimping their abilities, but eventually I think they actually like it for RP reasons. If they want to hide it he attempts to avert his eyes somehow with a bluff or cleverly-worded description. Even if the people he Detects Evil on are good, it's just plain rude. I equate it to wiretapping my phone. I'm not doing anything illegal, but I still wouldn't want a wiretap on it. Hope that Helps, --Charly
d20diceroller 03-29-07, 12:12 PM	I tried to mitigate this a bit IMC by saying that when the paladin Detects Evil that his eyes glow bright gold. Since it is a supernatural or spell-like ability (not 100% on which) I do not believe that there is any verbal casting component required. With this visual cue he can't go around constantly Detecting Evil on everyone, without people realizing what he is doing resulting in people getting miffed. My players first said that I was gimping their abilities, but eventually I think they actually like it for RP reasons. If they want to hide it he attempts to avert his eyes somehow with a bluff or cleverly-worded description. Even if the people he Detects Evil on are good, it's just plain rude. I equate it to wiretapping my phone. I'm not doing anything illegal, but I still wouldn't want a wiretap on it. Hope that Helps, --Charly Actually, as written, it is a spell-like ability that works like casting a spell. There is a verbal component, somatic component, and the paladin must have a holy symbol for focus.
CreepingCharly 03-29-07, 12:29 PM	Actually, as written, it is a spell-like ability that works like casting a spell. There is a verbal component, somatic component, and the paladin must have a holy symbol for focus. Good to know! Thanks. --Charly
Mystic Theurge 03-29-07, 06:05 PM	Actually, as written, it is a spell-like ability that works like casting a spell. There is a verbal component, somatic component, and the paladin must have a holy symbol for focus. This is incorrect. From the SRD: A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally.
CreepingCharly 03-29-07, 07:14 PM	Thanks Mystic Theurge. Here's the link for anyone who's curious: Special Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) That is how me and my group have played it. Glad to see that we aren't all crazy. That's why I tried to reel in the paladin a tad with the glowing eyes dealie. That at least gives my NPCs a possible clue as to what is going on --Charly
pukunui 03-29-07, 07:18 PM	That is how me and my group have played it. Glad to see that we aren't all crazy. That's why I tried to reel in the paladin a tad with the glowing eyes dealie. That at least gives my NPCs a possible clue as to what is going onHey, I dig the glowing eyes thing. If anyone in my group ever opts to play a paladin, I might adopt that too - even if we aren't playing in Ravenloft ...
d20diceroller 03-29-07, 08:21 PM	This is incorrect. From the SRD: From the Players Handbook v3.5 on page 44 - Detect Evil(Sp)At will, a paladin can detect evil, as the spell. The spell detect evil has the components: Verbal, Somatic, and Divine Focus. Page 218 Players Handbook v3.5 Divine focus indicates that the paladin must also have a holy symbol- page 174 Players Handbook v 3.5. There is no / mark seperating the spell components into either verbal and somatic or divine focus. There is a comma indicating that an appropriate holy symbol is also used for divine focus if you are a paladin. It works like the spell, only if you are a paladin you have unlimited access per day. It even states it works as the spell in the paladins special abilities listing. At least that is how it is written in the actual Players Handbook v3.5.
pukunui 03-29-07, 08:30 PM	d20diceroller - I don't think you get it. The paladin uses detect evil as a "spell-like ability". This means he is explicitly exempt from needing any of the component requirements for the spell because he is not actually casting it as a spell. It functions the same as the spell detect evil, but the paladin's ability is not the detect evil spell. It is a spell-like ability. All the "as the spell" tag means is that, if you don't know what detect evil does, then you need to look up the description of the spell of the same name in the back of the book.
Mystic Theurge 03-29-07, 08:47 PM	From the Players Handbook v3.5 on page 44 - Detect Evil(Sp)At will, a paladin can detect evil, as the spell. The spell detect evil has the components: Verbal, Somatic, and Divine Focus. Page 218 Players Handbook v3.5 Divine focus indicates that the paladin must also have a holy symbol- page 174 Players Handbook v 3.5. There is no / mark seperating the spell components into either verbal and somatic or divine focus. There is a comma indicating that an appropriate holy symbol is also used for divine focus if you are a paladin. It works like the spell, only if you are a paladin you have unlimited access per day. It even states it works as the spell in the paladins special abilities listing. At least that is how it is written in the actual Players Handbook v3.5. All Spell-like abilities work "as the spell", that's why they are called "spell-like" abilities, so the description under paladin does not trump the rules for spell-like abilities. Again, I will quote from the SRD: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. When you look under the Detect Evil ability of the paladin, it doesn't mention anything about needing a focus unlike other spell-like abilities. Therefore, one must conclude that the spell-like ability Detect Magic of Paladins works just like all other spell-like abilities. The only case where it wouldn't is if the ability explicitly said one needs a focus. As a side note, Paladins using Detect evil DO provoke an AoO when doing so.
roderickvd 03-29-07, 10:19 PM	As a side note, Paladins using Detect evil DO provoke an AoO when doing so. That's interesting. I too thought that it required the same components as the spell. Thanks for the heads up! Why I think it's interesting is this -- how can they provoke an AoO when, according to the standard rules, there is no way for the enemy to detect the opportunity? The ideas about glowing eyes are great, but they make you wonder why the SRD is silent on this. Alternatively it could mean that the paladin is simply too distracted to actively defend itself. I myself have some problems defending this statement, because being distracted (and having lower defenses) is something different from provoking an AoO (and granting an enemy an extra attack from some obvious happenstance). Interested to hear your opinions.
pukunui 03-29-07, 10:24 PM	Alternatively it could mean that the paladin is simply too distracted to actively defend itself.Bingo! Just like how a psion can manifest a power with no displays (so no one else knows he's manifesting) but the "far away look in his eyes" gives him away for distracted and enemies can sieze the opportunity.
Mystic Theurge 03-29-07, 10:28 PM	That's interesting. I too thought that it required the same components as the spell. Thanks for the heads up! Why I think it's interesting is this -- how can they provoke an AoO when, according to the standard rules, there is no way for the enemy to detect the opportunity? The ideas about glowing eyes are great, but they make you wonder why the SRD is silent on this. Alternatively it could mean that the paladin is simply too distracted to actively defend itself. I myself have some problems defending this statement, because being distracted (and having lower defenses) is something different from provoking an AoO (and granting an enemy an extra attack from some obvious happenstance). Interested to hear your opinions. Spell-like abilities are activated mentally. In other words, the character has to focus his or her attention on using the ability. The character is "distracted" in that moment, so it provokes an AoO. Using a spell-like ability is obvious to everyone around the user, though they might not know what ability the character is using. Although it doens't require a somatic component, it can be ruled that the character stretches his or her hand forward to get a "sense" of what lies ahead. An alternative is that the character touches the side of his head, or squints his eyes. In any case, everyone around the character knows that something is happening.
d20diceroller 03-29-07, 11:26 PM	More reasons added to the list of how I can see the potential of the game to be so fun until I sit down to play and realize that just like the english language, for every rule there is an exception. And then I scratch my head and wonder why, if everyone else in the world just uses the system resource document, why was I the chump that actually paid money for the books. *sigh*
pukunui 03-29-07, 11:31 PM	More reasons added to the list of how I can see the potential of the game to be so fun until I sit down to play and realize that just like the english language, for every rule there is an exception. And then I scratch my head and wonder why, if everyone else in the world just uses the system resource document, why was I the chump that actually paid money for the books. *sigh*Because the SRD doesn't have everything you need in order to play the game in it. For instance, it doesn't have the XP or wealth charts or any of the character creation stuff. Besides, I wouldn't exactly say that the paladin's detect evil ability is an "exception to the rule". It states quite clearly that spell-like abilities (unless otherwise stated in a creature/class's description - this is the exception to the rule) are different from actual spells. The's why they're called spell-like abilities in the first place. :rolleyes:
d20diceroller 03-29-07, 11:59 PM	Besides, I wouldn't exactly say that the paladin's detect evil ability is an "exception to the rule". It states quite clearly that spell-like abilities (unless otherwise stated in a creature/class's description - this is the exception to the rule) are different from actual spells. The's why they're called spell-like abilities in the first place. :rolleyes: Ok. I knew that spell like abilities were different. But what is the point of writing - detect evil- like the spell if you don't mean - like the spell? Just assume you haven't played for years and years and you read that. You mean to tell me that you wouldn't think that paladins detect evil was different than every other spell like ability you have seen. Keep in mind that you don't have everything memorized. "When we say like the spell we don't mean like the spell, we mean like the spell."
Mystic Theurge 03-30-07, 12:29 AM	What I would like to know is how Greater Turning is dealt with in the game. I've been thumbing through my copy of the book looking for anything that will tell me how the main bad guy is supposed to be a threat when any cleric of Pelor can simply "greater turn" the guy into dust. Does the Dayheart help at all? "When we say like the spell we don't mean like the spell, we mean like the spell." The thing that should help here is that whenever you see any ability that has (SP) immediately after the name, look up the rules for spell-like abilities and that will let you know how the ability is used. To know how the ability functions, you look up the spell itself, paying no attention to the "components" entry for the spell since they are not used in spell-like abilities unless otherwise, specificly stated under the ability entry itself.
pukunui 03-30-07, 12:31 AM	I think it's pretty obvious that "like the spell" refers to the function of the ability. Sure, you might think this also means it involves using the spell's component requirements, but a quick read of the definition of a spell-like ability shows that this is not the case. So yes, if you didn't know what a spell-like ability was, I can see how you might think the the paladin's ability would require the components when it says "like the spell". But hopefully you're now better off for knowing the truth, eh? ;) EDIT: The thing that should help here is that whenever you see any ability that has (SP) immediately after the name, look up the rules for spell-like abilities and that will let you know how the ability is used. To know how the ability functions, you look up the spell itself, paying no attention to the "components" entry for the spell since they are not used in spell-like abilities unless otherwise, specificly stated under the ability entry itself. Damn, Mystic Theurge always explains it better than I do. :D p.s. I haven't got the book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the Dayheart helps prevent Strahd from being Greater Turned. It also helps if you, as the DM, ban the Sun Domain just to be on the safe side ... :P ;)
d20diceroller 03-30-07, 12:48 AM	I think it's pretty obvious that "like the spell" refers to the function of the ability. Sure, you might think this also means it involves using the spell's component requirements, but a quick read of the definition of a spell-like ability shows that this is not the case. So yes, if you didn't know what a spell-like ability was, I can see how you might think the the paladin's ability would require the components when it says "like the spell". But hopefully you're now better off for knowing the truth, eh? ;) EDIT: Damn, Mystic Theurge always explains it better than I do. :D p.s. I haven't got the book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the Dayheart helps prevent Strahd from being Greater Turned. It also helps if you, as the DM, ban the Sun Domain just to be on the safe side ... :P ;) Ok. So that all makes great sense. But what of the greater turning. I mean, the book itself references Lightbringer Paladins who probably worship pelor. I know that clerics are the ones that would deal with greater turning, but still... The book itself references pelor...
pukunui 03-30-07, 12:57 AM	Ok. So that all makes great sense. But what of the greater turning. I mean, the book itself references Lightbringer Paladins who probably worship pelor. I know that clerics are the ones that would deal with greater turning, but still... The book itself references pelor... Just had a look ... it doesn't really say anything about it. Strahd has +4 turn resistance, but that's standard for a vampire, ain't it? It also says something like (I'm paraphrasing) "Though Strahd can be turned, a cleric can't keep him at bay by simply presenting his holy symbol". That's it really. The Dayheart just makes Strahd immune to sunlight effects.
Mystic Theurge 03-30-07, 01:01 AM	Just had a look ... it doesn't really say anything about it. Strahd has +4 turn resistance, but that's standard for a vampire, ain't it? It also says something like (I'm paraphrasing) "Though Strahd can be turned, a cleric can't keep him at bay by simply presenting his holy symbol". That's it really. The Dayheart just makes Strahd immune to sunlight effects. Hmmm, well, that makes for an easy encounter for an apropriately leveled cleric of Pelor with the sun domain, IMO. Any ideas on how to prevent this or draw it out, perhaps?
pukunui 03-30-07, 01:03 AM	The only thing I can think of is to ban the Sun Domain ... or perhaps just house rule that Strahd is immune to Greater Turning.
roderickvd 03-30-07, 06:52 AM	Just like how a psion can manifest a power with no displays (so no one else knows he's manifesting) but the "far away look in his eyes" gives him away for distracted and enemies can sieze the opportunity. And to understand these rules fully: does the spell-like ability require a concentration check to succeed when the AoO hits? (Or at any other time a concentration check would normally be warranted.)
CreepingCharly 03-30-07, 07:32 AM	Hey, I dig the glowing eyes thing. If anyone in my group ever opts to play a paladin, I might adopt that too - even if we aren't playing in Ravenloft ... Oh, I hear ya...that is a house rule for my RttToEE turned RHoD game. It has proved very useful for the Jarett Nurth expanded subplot I had, and the tireless hunt for "THE SPY"!! dun dun DUNNN! (I had them intercept one of ***** messages to Koth -> Thanks to Caligula ;)) --Charly
CreepingCharly 03-30-07, 07:43 AM	More reasons added to the list of how I can see the potential of the game to be so fun until I sit down to play and realize that just like the english language, for every rule there is an exception. And then I scratch my head and wonder why, if everyone else in the world just uses the system resource document, why was I the chump that actually paid money for the books. *sigh* I don't know about you, but I'd much rather thumb through books to reference things than have to sit at a computer and stare at a screen for hours on end. I guess I am more of a traditionalist DM. I prefer to use books, pencil, and paper as opposed to a laptop. A laptop just seems out of place when I'm trying to get in a fantasy mood and mindset. I use the SRD for referencing purposes on forums stuff myself. --Charly --Charly
pukunui 03-30-07, 08:44 AM	And to understand these rules fully: does the spell-like ability require a concentration check to succeed when the AoO hits? (Or at any other time a concentration check would normally be warranted.) Does this answer your question? Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.
roderickvd 03-30-07, 09:38 AM	Does this answer your question? It does, thanks.
d20diceroller 03-30-07, 10:07 AM	I don't know about you, but I'd much rather thumb through books to reference things than have to sit at a computer and stare at a screen for hours on end. I guess I am more of a traditionalist DM. I prefer to use books, pencil, and paper as opposed to a laptop. A laptop just seems out of place when I'm trying to get in a fantasy mood and mindset. I use the SRD for referencing purposes on forums stuff myself. --Charly --Charly Yeah, I am the kind of person that just loves books. I like having a bookshelf full of great books and not just RPG books. I'm a book nerd. I guess that is what bothers me about the laptop generation. I can't understand why someone wouldn't like a good book in hand rather than a pdf. I'm oldschool at the table: Pencils, three ring binder, books and dice. :)
pukunui 03-30-07, 05:32 PM	It does, thanks.No worries! Yeah, I am the kind of person that just loves books. I like having a bookshelf full of great books and not just RPG books. I'm a book nerd. I guess that is what bothers me about the laptop generation. I can't understand why someone wouldn't like a good book in hand rather than a pdf. I'm oldschool at the table: Pencils, three ring binder, books and dice. :)I like my books too, but a laptop can be very useful at the table - particularly if you can hook it up to a big TV. Then you can show maps and pics and things without having to print them out. Quite fun. :D
CreepingCharly 03-31-07, 10:56 AM	No worries! I like my books too, but a laptop can be very useful at the table - particularly if you can hook it up to a big TV. Then you can show maps and pics and things without having to print them out. Quite fun. :D I use my TiVo for that! ;) --Charly
pukunui 03-31-07, 03:08 PM	I use my TiVo for that! ;) Oh. They don't have TiVo here in New Zealand ... :P
Eye of the Beholder 04-01-07, 12:18 AM	Back on the original topic: don't know if it says this in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, but in the original Ravenloft module and 2e Ravenloft campaign setting, the nature of the land was such that alignment detection became much less reliable/informative... detecting law and chaos was still possible, but no one could detect good or evil. The Dark Powers (whatever they were) just wouldn't allow it. The paladin's detect evil ability, then, got changed to detect chaos. Don't know if they've carried that over to EtCR, but the change certainly has precedent. As far as how the paladin will take this, I don't think he'll blame you - he might not like it, but as long as you're clear up front that something changed when he entered the mists, that his moral compass seems less certain, like something external is holding the information back, he should be upset at (or better yet, frightened by) the land and its master, rather than you the DM.
Malraux 04-01-07, 12:32 AM	I don't think I6 had the restrictions on Detect Evil, that was just a latter Ravenloft Campaign Setting idea. I didn't read through it in detail, but a there's no mention of detect evil changing that I could find.
Sysane 04-01-07, 09:29 AM	I don't think I6 had the restrictions on Detect Evil, that was just a latter Ravenloft Campaign Setting idea. I didn't read through it in detail, but a there's no mention of detect evil changing that I could find. There isn't.
tarez 04-03-07, 09:23 AM	Oh, I hear ya...that is a house rule for my RttToEE turned RHoD game. It has proved very useful for the Jarett Nurth expanded subplot I had, and the tireless hunt for "THE SPY"!! dun dun DUNNN! (I had them intercept one of ***** messages to Koth -> Thanks to Caligula ;)) --Charly You should probably either put a spoiler message or blank out "THE SPY"'s name regarding the RHoD game. Else potential players might come across it :)
CreepingCharly 04-03-07, 10:14 AM	You should probably either put a spoiler message or blank out "THE SPY"'s name regarding the RHoD game. Else potential players might come across it :) Good call! Sorry about that... :embarrass --Charly
Downtym 04-03-07, 12:02 PM	I have a Paladin in my group and I am pretty sure they are going to rely on detect evil throughout the campaign. I understand that paladins are able to detect evil, but considering that Ravenloft as a campaign is shrouded in mystery and mysterious characters it seems to me that detect evil has the potential to act as a spoiler. (Emphasis mine) I don't really see how the above emphasized portion is true in the written adventure. Paladin detects evil on the undead? They're evil. Paladin detects evil on half the NPC's who are *obviously* evil? They're evil. Paladin detects evil on Strahd? He's evil. These are all fairly no-brainer things as the adventure is set up. If you can't figure out that Strahd is the bad guy from the first 30 seconds after stepping into the area around Ravenloft, then you probably deserve the impending doom.
Malraux 04-03-07, 12:11 PM	Paladin detects evil on Strahd? He's evil. Actually, casting DE on strahd from the paladin should result in no ping, unless the party is near the end of the adventure.
scoobs 04-04-07, 12:35 PM	d20... There's nothing wrong with the way it is written in the book. Basically they are saying a Paladin has the spell detect evil but uses it AS a special ability. They probably did this so that you knew where in the book to look at what detect evil does. You'll notice they put (see detect good) for detect aura, so we'll know what it does. Often special abilities are compared to spells to show us the effect of them, but they still ONLY require the functions of a special ability, since that is how the character is using it (in this case a paladin using detect evil). Since the paladin uses this ability mentally, a concentration check needs to be made under certain conditions.
scoobs 04-04-07, 12:58 PM	pukunui. This is the way I see it. Character and monsters' alignments are given due to the way the character (upon creating it) is suppose to act, or the way it has already acted. Create a paladin, and you HAVE to choose lawful-good as an alignment. If you choose to act in manners that don't apply, your alignment will change; thus, in the case of a paladin, your class would change. If the things you have done were so bad that your new alignment was evil, this could be detected by the spell/ability detect evil. Indifferent characters (neutral) don't seem to care either way. You can be good and think evil, and evil and think good, but if you act upon it your alignment will change.
Thindelock 04-12-07, 12:29 PM	Detect Evil has a duration of Concentration, meaning you have to spend a standard action each round to maintain it, and it's not until the third round that you can tell WHO or WHAT is evil. That's 18 seconds of the Clint Eastwood squinty-stare for people to notice how rude you're being. Note that like any spell or spell-like, you can "cast defensively" using a concentration check to avoid the AoO, but it still takes a standard action each round to maintain, which should be obvious to anyone who's even pretending to pay attention.
kimli 04-14-07, 10:08 AM	Originally Posted by pukunui Does it matter? The DM could just rule that everything in Barovia radiates evil. Nowhere does it say, "You are not allowed to use the 'everything radiates evil' rule for the paladin's detect evil ability unless you are playing in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting". I'm not saying you can't. But the presumption of EtCR is the rules as detailed in the rule books. So for things radiating evil, that would be the effects detailed in the Detect Evil spell, so evil creatures, spells or items, or the lingering aura of their passing. Though of course the DM may overrule this at his pleasure. Not to mention, that would be doing what the original poster didn't want to do. Nerf the Paladin.