Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Solaris 08-11-05, 09:29 PM	There have been several threads lately about whether or not D&D is Satanic, and how we can argue our case with those who claim that it is. Unfortunately, most of the people offering advice appear to be completely unfamiliar with the way the other side's argument actually works. We say "It's only a game," or "I play heroic, virtuous characters", or "They aren't real spells I'm casting," but these arguments will be utterly ineffective against the people you're dealing with. According to them, you might think it's only a game, but it isn't. When you play, there are evil things happening at a deeper, spiritual level. Simply saying "I cast Magic Missile!" is evil because it has the appearance of magic, and magic comes from Satan. If, while you play, you believe you're being heroic or virtuous, then so much the better for Satan -- it means you don't even realize you're bound for Hell. According to them, the character classes themselves are bad. Fighters kill, Clerics worship false gods, Thieves steal, and Magic-users manipulate evil forces. If you pretend to be these things, you are letting evil influences into your life. According to them, D&D is anti-biblical simply because it is non-biblical. The simple fact that Jesus isn't there saving your soul is enough to condemn it. You cannot reason with these people. All of your protests will be easily countered. Yes, of course their counter-arguments are completely bogus. But they don't and won't see it that way -- you are the one who has been tricked by Satan and cannot see the truth. There will be a few who are able to be convinced. Sitting them down with the Player's Handbook and explaining things to them might be enough to cure some people of their ignorance. But many more don't even want to be educated, and will even believe that the Devil himself is working through you if you try to argue your case. Someone will either quickly and easily see the logic and truth of the matter, or they won't; If they won't, then there's nothing to do but write them off. Give up and leave them to their beliefs. You can't educate the world.
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon 08-11-05, 10:09 PM	Its people like them(the overzealous) who make me lose faith, not in Jesus and God, but in other christians and the human race in general. Why do you have the Chick comic quote in your signature! Get it out, it is just wrong!
ImmortalBlueMage 08-11-05, 11:28 PM	Am I the only one who thinks this comes up way too often around here?
CJ1720 08-11-05, 11:39 PM	It's like I've always said: You can lead a horse to water, but... you can only drown it.
Thorak 08-11-05, 11:45 PM	There have been several threads lately about whether or not D&D is Satanic, and how we can argue our case with those who claim that it is. Unfortunately, most of the people offering advice appear to be completely unfamiliar with the way the other side's argument actually works. Oh, I'm aware of it. They use appeals to emotion and completely ignore rational thought. Evidence and examples are anathema to them. We say "It's only a game," or "I play heroic, virtuous characters", or "They aren't real spells I'm casting," but these arguments will be utterly ineffective against the people you're dealing with. Right. But let's keep on going. According to them, you might think it's only a game, but it isn't. When you play, there are evil things happening at a deeper, spiritual level. Simply saying "I cast Magic Missile!" is evil because it has the appearance of magic, and magic comes from Satan. If, while you play, you believe you're being heroic or virtuous, then so much the better for Satan -- it means you don't even realize you're bound for Hell. This is like saying the Bible is satanic because it talks about people worshipping the Golden Calf. According to them, the character classes themselves are bad. Fighters kill, Clerics worship false gods, Thieves steal, and Magic-users manipulate evil forces. If you pretend to be these things, you are letting evil influences into your life. Killing? Need we remind ourselves that their holy book is centered around the graphic torture and execution of one man? And contains a great deal of horrible violence to boot? Not to mention, being incapable of separating imaginative fantasy from reality is a sign of insanity. That they see this stuff as real only suggests that their grip on their own sanity is tenuous at best. According to them, D&D is anti-biblical simply because it is non-biblical. The simple fact that Jesus isn't there saving your soul is enough to condemn it. That's OK. Go sit and think it's horrible all you want. Try and tell me I'm evil, and I'll point out that this is hate speech and harassment, and illegal on both counts (in Canada). Not to mention this means they also think Bhuddism is evil. Shall we count up the atrocities committed by Christians vs the atrocities committed by Bhuddists? You cannot reason with these people. All of your protests will be easily countered. Yes, of course their counter-arguments are completely bogus. But they don't and won't see it that way -- you are the one who has been tricked by Satan and cannot see the truth. The point isn't to convince them. They are so close to the line dividing belief and delusion that you'll fail, obviously. The point is to make it clear to anyone else within earshot that they're blithering idiots who can't put together a rational thought if it was written on a piece of paper for them first. There will be a few who are able to be convinced. Sitting them down with the Player's Handbook and explaining things to them might be enough to cure some people of their ignorance. But many more don't even want to be educated, and will even believe that the Devil himself is working through you if you try to argue your case. Mmhmm. And people who choose blind faith over education and knowledge can go rot, for all I care. Faith is a wonderful thing. Blind faith is ridiculous and idiotic. You can't put the apple back on the tree, folks. Someone will either quickly and easily see the logic and truth of the matter, or they won't; If they won't, then there's nothing to do but write them off. Give up and leave them to their beliefs. You can't educate the world. No, but you can educate everyone else, and get these people the professional psychiatric help they probably need. A caveat; at no point am I knocking Christianity, here. I am myself a devout Christian. It always disturbs these types when I can quote the Bible at them better than they can quote it at me. SNIP We need less Chick and more Augustine.
weasel fierce 08-12-05, 12:36 AM	Tell them to bugger off.
braindead345 08-12-05, 12:37 AM	Point out that D&D is no more Satanic than the complete works of J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, yet those authors have been put into the hands of more people world wide than the total number of people who have played D&D in all its forms. Point out that not only are players able to choose what gods (if any) that their characters' worship, but also the use of God as a diety in the game is allowed at the players' disgression. Most players choose not to use God as a diety in the game because of respect to other players and fears of blasphemy. Futhermore, the use of mythical dieties is not Satanism, merely Paganism or polytheism at worse. While no expert in religious matters, I believe Satanism involves a commitment to practice evil, blood sacrifices and the like. Really a stretch to compare such things to rolling funny pieces of plastic with numbers on the sides. Finally turn their own faith against them. For most Christians, this comes down to: "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "By devine grace alone, my sins will be forgiven and I will join God, the Father, almighty, in Heaven." Avoid the "Love thy neighbor as thyself", they will use it against you.
Azzy 08-12-05, 01:58 AM	Point out that D&D is no more Satanic than the complete works of J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, yet those authors have been put into the hands of more people world wide than the total number of people who have played D&D in all its forms. And point out that those authors were also Christians. :)
Manyfist 08-12-05, 02:10 AM	:I just tell every one who tells me that my life and such is from Satan, I tell them to F off, before I get Abusive. Then they just leave me alone, it's great not being christian, since you can tell people to Bugg off and still live on. Zealots should be shot, then thrown in the river, that's my policy. :D
Cole Deschain 08-12-05, 02:22 AM	Eh. I'm a short-fused jerk at best, so I usually try to warn 'em off with a "you're not going to convince me like that." After that, they're fair game. If they escalate, I escalate. Usually ends in tears. S'why I avoid fundies.
The Simbul 08-12-05, 02:40 AM	Umm, WHO CARES what the :censored: they think? I mean what is the worst possible thing those types of people can do; organize one of their cute little boycotts the vendors of D&D books??? Well, to put it nicely, I dont think the people who suffer from religion-induced D&D-phobia are the types who come from parts of the country where Bookstores are the most frequently visited businesses in the first place. Unless you live in Iran, you dont need to justify your recreational activities to any rabble of "religious police", and even then I dont think the D&D books are published in Farsi anyways, so there goes that caveat.
Solaris 08-12-05, 03:07 AM	I'm only playing fundamentalist's advocate here. Point out that D&D is no more Satanic than the complete works of J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, yet those authors have been put into the hands of more people world wide than the total number of people who have played D&D in all its forms. "But those works were written by Christians and are full of good, Christian allegory[1]. D&D, on the other hand, is a tool of Satan which allows dark forces into your life." Point out that not only are players able to choose what gods (if any) that their characters' worship, but also the use of God as a diety in the game is allowed at the players' disgression. "All of these other gods are actually demons. When you talk about Odin or any other gods in the game, you're unwittingly invoking demons. There's only one God, and his word is in the bible, not an evil game." Futhermore, the use of mythical dieties is not Satanism, merely Paganism or polytheism at worse. All pagan and polytheistic religions actually involve demon worship, whether you realize it or not. These are not gods you're worshipping -- there's only one God -- but rather demons who will lead you away from God. If you follow them they will take over your life and you will go to Hell." I believe Satanism involves a commitment to practice evil, blood sacrifices and the like. Really a stretch to compare such things to rolling funny pieces of plastic with numbers on the sides. "Satan is subtle and tricky. The fact that you believe you're only rolling dice is just proof that Satan has deceived you. Satan's greatest triumph was convincing mankind that he doesn't exist." You cannot reason with these people; it's better not to try. [1] While the works of C. S. Lewis do contain Christian allegory, Tolkien would vehemently deny that his do.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-12-05, 03:38 AM	Reverse psychology. "You play Dungeons & Dragons!? IT'S THE DEVILS GAME!!!" "No, that's what I thought at first, too. See, my parents are like you and I really wanted to **** 'em off. I bought a Ouija board, I used tarot cards and a crystal ball, and I started playing D&D. I kept thinking 'I'm doing all this evil stuff, I'm sure to attract the devil's attention.' But no, out of all of it, no Satan, no demons. I didn't even summon an angry ghost." "YOU TRIED TO SUMMON SATAN!?" (sound dejected) "Yeah... Nothing works though. I'm beginning to think he doesn't exist." You have to say all this with a straight face, otherwise it doesn't work.
braindead345 08-12-05, 04:41 AM	Gee, Solaris, it sounds like you have gone a few rounds with these people. At least you didn't find fault with my closing. The main problem with the Bible is that it has been subjected to possible transcription errors, and possible editing by the clergy for centuries. We have no idea if any of the really important bits were cut from the text and destroyed or worse false words added in. The fault does not lay with God, rather the men who took it upon themselves to modify his word, only to leave us all in darkness. To continue this train of thought, it may very well have been that somebody inserted those bits which denounce pagan dieties or "demons" as you called them. Afterall, those mythical dieties may merely be other aspects of God; just like Jesus and the Holy Spirit are. God created everything, including the demons and devils that plague mankind (so much for the Intelligent Design concept, Mr. President). Sure, the behavior of Zeus was deplorable, according to mythology; but who said God had to be happy and nice all of the time, let alone the possiblity that any of those stories are actually true?
Solaris 08-12-05, 05:13 AM	Gee, Solaris, it sounds like you have gone a few rounds with these people. At least you didn't find fault with my closing. The Devil will quote scripture when it suits him...
Thorak 08-12-05, 09:26 AM	I'm only playing fundamentalist's advocate here. Ooh, can I play opponent's advocate? "But those works were written by Christians and are full of good, Christian allegory[1]. D&D, on the other hand, is a tool of Satan which allows dark forces into your life." So, basically, because you say so? Or do you have some reason for determining which is which based on some kind of evidence? D&D started as a game based on Tolkien's works, that's why in the original books, halflings were "hobbits". So why is the original literature awesome and wonderful, but the game based upon it Satan's work? "All of these other gods are actually demons. When you talk about Odin or any other gods in the game, you're unwittingly invoking demons. There's only one God, and his word is in the bible, not an evil game." So every time a priest mentions Satan in a sermon, he's invoking Satan? Oh, they're special? So when you're telling me this is Satanic, why are you special? Or did you just invoke Satan? Or maybe there's a lot more to invoking demons than merely saying their name. All pagan and polytheistic religions actually involve demon worship, whether you realize it or not. These are not gods you're worshipping -- there's only one God -- but rather demons who will lead you away from God. If you follow them they will take over your life and you will go to Hell." Nobody's worshipping anything. We're talking about a fictional word, and we're playing pretend. We're not even pretending that we worship these god/demons. We're pretending that these characters we made up do. Again, if you are having trouble distinguishing between fantasy and reality, there's men in white coats that would like to speak with you. "Satan is subtle and tricky. The fact that you believe you're only rolling dice is just proof that Satan has deceived you. Satan's greatest triumph was convincing mankind that he doesn't exist." "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." Luke 6:37 Also see the Parable of the Weeds. Which says, in short, to let evil be, and God will deal with it at the "harvest", the end of the age. Jesus even takes the time to explain this parable point-by-point, in the Bible. It's always fun throwing the Bible back in their face. Especially since both of the above are from the Gospels in the New Testament, so it's the new stuff, not the possibly overruled stuff from the Old Testament. Which, oddly, fundies seem to quote more than the New. Might be that the New Testament's all about forgiving and accepting, while they want God to smite the heathens. Umm, excuse me folks, Jesus came here 2000 years ago to tell us that wasn't how God worked any more. [1] While the works of C. S. Lewis do contain Christian allegory, Tolkien would vehemently deny that his do. Allegory, no, symbolism, certainly. I find it hard to believe that, since his intent was to rewrite the thematic components of Celtic and Teutonic legend for the modern era, that he would change it from a polytheistic paradigm to a monotheistic one without being aware of the change he was making.
Solaris 08-12-05, 09:54 AM	Again, just being fundamentalist's advocate... So why is the original literature awesome and wonderful, but the game based upon it Satan's work? "Because when you play the game you are acting out imitations of evil things, and this allows Satan into your life. Whatever the original works may have been, this game is evil." So every time a priest mentions Satan in a sermon, he's invoking Satan? Oh, they're special? So when you're telling me this is Satanic, why are you special? Or did you just invoke Satan? "Mentioning Satan is different from pretending to pray to him for magic spells". Nobody's worshipping anything. We're talking about a fictional word, and we're playing pretend. We're not even pretending that we worship these god/demons. We're pretending that these characters we made up do. "That's all it takes. You think you're just playing a game, but in reality you're allowing the demons in. When you say "I cast magic missile", you're mimicing witchcraft which comes from Satan. When you say "I pray to Odin to regain my spells", you're allowing a demon to gain a foothold in your life. The bible says to abstain from all appearance of evil. But you're toying with it, and you don't understand the forces you're dealing with." Again, if you are having trouble distinguishing between fantasy and reality, there's men in white coats that would like to speak with you. "Satan wants you to think it's fantasy. You're blinded to the reality of what's happening to you. You've allowed demons into your life, and you're going to hell." "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." Luke 6:37 Also see the Parable of the Weeds. Which says, in short, to let evil be, and God will deal with it at the "harvest", the end of the age. "God will deal with you at the harvest; you'll go to hell. In the meantime, however, my kids won't be allowed to play this game, or even to see your kids anymore, because I need to protect them from evil influences. I'll pray for you, though, and if you ever want to get out of this you can come to me and we'll pray together and God will forgive you. You only need to ask Jesus to be your savior..." I hope it's becoming clear that you can't get past these arguments. This position isn't defended rationally, and it therefore cannot be assailed by rational arguments. They believe that you are deluded, not them; they believe that you're trying to deceive them; they believe that demons are working through you, so they won't listen to a word you say. And these are just a few of the arguments they will use against D&D. For more, google for "Straight talk on Dungeons and Dragons" and "Should a Christian Play Dungeons & Dragons"; these are two essays where the anti-D&D case is argued.
Sharn Inquisitor 08-12-05, 10:01 AM	I find that the best routes for handling these people are to tell them with a straight face that only God is your judge. Even if you believe to the contrary. It basically reminds them that they should not be judging you, as it fundamentally goes against a "good" Christian's beliefs.
Lao, Ninja of the Dragon 08-12-05, 10:26 AM	You know, one way you could convince over-zealous people is have them read parts of the book. For example, they'll say "this says players have to make hand signs and do incantations" And you will say "No, our characters do" At all cost avoid BoVD. I just dislike it(a lot), but they will see it as evidence the D&D is Satanic. This will not work on those who think reading it steals your soul.
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-12-05, 10:54 AM	If you ever encounter one of these people... You're doing something wrong. Don't you know you have to stay as far away from these sorts as possible? :P But seriously. You really got inside their heads in that post, and some of the alternatives in this thread are Grade-A.
StormKnight 08-12-05, 12:43 PM	I'd say Solaris is doing an excellent job of illustrating why arguing with these people is essentially pointless. On the bright side, I don't think odds are real high you will meet anyone that bad. Odds are you'll just find the people who think "D&D is bad" and really don't know why beside vague stuff they have heard about it. Out of curiosity, does anyone know where in the Bible the idea comes from that "magic" is bad in any case?
Tealgorthian 08-12-05, 01:31 PM	I'd say Solaris is doing an excellent job of illustrating why arguing with these people is essentially pointless. On the bright side, I don't think odds are real high you will meet anyone that bad. Odds are you'll just find the people who think "D&D is bad" and really don't know why beside vague stuff they have heard about it. Out of curiosity, does anyone know where in the Bible the idea comes from that "magic" is bad in any case? Part of it comes from the phrase "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". Which is a mistraslation, or out and out chanage to "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live". Other than that, no clue. Never read it, not my holy text.
Azzy 08-12-05, 02:36 PM	Have you ever noticed exactly how faithless some of these so-called zealots are? That they believe that such little things can lead can to damnation. Or how much power they attribute to the "Satan" character. When, Biblically, demons of any variety have no power against the faithful. Or how their behaviour is typically antithetical to Jesus' teachings? Like being judgemental, emphasising hate and fear instead of love and compassion, being didatic in interpreting religious law instead of see the spirit of the law, etc. Ever think that maybe, just maybe, those unwitting fools are the real "devil-worshippers" and they just don't even realise it? It's like they're actively trying to give Christianity a bad name.
Derren S. 08-12-05, 03:26 PM	This reminds me how good it is not to live in the USA. My advise is simply ignore them. When they come with such arguments they are fanatic and nothing will change their mind so don't bother. And when you can't ignore them you could, at last resort, try to divert their attention. There are so much more satanic people than D&D player like Vampire the Masquerade player who openly defy the church in their game or LARPer or even Vampire the Masquerade LARPer.
Thorak 08-12-05, 05:26 PM	Again, just being fundamentalist's advocate... Oh goodie, a back-and forth! No, I'm not being sarcastic, but I love this stuff. "Because when you play the game you are acting out imitations of evil things, and this allows Satan into your life. Whatever the original works may have been, this game is evil." We are acting out evil things inasmuch as talking about God sending she-bears to tear apart children for laughing at a bald man is. "Mentioning Satan is different from pretending to pray to him for magic spells". Kindly cite where in the PHB it suggests that you pray. It suggests that your character pray. The player is under no requirement to act this out. "That's all it takes. You think you're just playing a game, but in reality you're allowing the demons in. When you say "I cast magic missile", you're mimicing witchcraft which comes from Satan. When you say "I pray to Odin to regain my spells", you're allowing a demon to gain a foothold in your life. The bible says to abstain from all appearance of evil. But you're toying with it, and you don't understand the forces you're dealing with." The Bible also says that eating anything from the sea without a fin is an abomination. Ever eaten shrimp, lobster, crab, crayfish? God says you're worse than me. "Satan wants you to think it's fantasy. You're blinded to the reality of what's happening to you. You've allowed demons into your life, and you're going to hell." "Judge not, lest you be judged in turn". Also see the parable of the weeds. Who goes to hell and who doesn't is God's business. Not yours. Unless you claim to be perfect, you have no right to judge others. And if you're perfect, you won't. "God will deal with you at the harvest; you'll go to hell. In the meantime, however, my kids won't be allowed to play this game, or even to see your kids anymore, because I need to protect them from evil influences. I'll pray for you, though, and if you ever want to get out of this you can come to me and we'll pray together and God will forgive you. You only need to ask Jesus to be your savior..." Jesus already is my saviour. He's a cool guy. All about forgiveness, acceptance. Maybe you should read what he wrote.
Solaris 08-12-05, 06:11 PM	Thorak, I suspect you're misunderstanding. Much of what you said would still be countered with the same arguments. For example: You say it's just a game. They say no, it's more than a game, and Satan wants you to think it's just a game. When you then reply once again that it's just a game, then as far as they're concerned you're just proving their point that you're being deluded by demons. Your protests are only confirming their beliefs. I know this is bogus. We all know this is bogus. But your attemts to draw a distinction between fantasy and reality here will not work. To them, this world is haunted by demons. Real, actual demons. And these demons are seeking every opportunity to get into you. D&D gives them an avenue to do so. Whether or not you, personally, recite a prayer to Odin, you're still playing the role of someone who channels demons for power. And just like saying "I cast Magic Missile" is enough to be tampering with Satanic forces, saying "My character prays to Odin" is enough. It's still the appearance of evil, and playing with it allows demons into your life. They're not judging you. They're trying to help you. You don't realize your life has been taken over by demons, and they're trying to help you see the truth. And if you don't see the truth and cast out the demons, then it's not a judgment, but rather a simple observation -- a trivial consequence of the theology -- that you're going to hell. You can quote all the scripture you want, and they'll reply that Satan quoted scripture to tempt Christ, and will assume that he's doing the same thing through you, and won't have any of it. They'll quote passages back to you which support their viewpoint, and ignore the ones you quote at them. You can cite old-testament commandments to which they don't adhere, and they'll reply that Jesus' sacrifice is a new covenant, and the old one doesn't apply anymore. My point is that the back-and-forth is useless. Your arguments will not penetrate, and will even serve to affirm their beliefs. If you love this stuff, then you must think you're winning, or making great points. But you're absolutely not having that effect on them. You are getting absolutely nowhere.
braindead345 08-13-05, 12:28 AM	Thorak, I suspect you're misunderstanding. Much of what you said would still be countered with the same arguments. For example: You say it's just a game. They say no, it's more than a game, and Satan wants you to think it's just a game. I'm sure Satan told them his plans. If they insist that the message was from a divine source, ask them to prove the source was devine. Satan can trick them just as easily as anyone. They're not judging you. They're trying to help you. Correction: They are trying to help you by judging that you are in need of help. Whether they will admit to judging you simply based on their "observations" (tempered by their interpretations of Holy Scripture) is highly unlikely. None the less, they are judging everyone-despite what they call it. My point is that the back-and-forth is useless. Your arguments will not penetrate, and will even serve to affirm their beliefs. If you love this stuff, then you must think you're winning, or making great points. But you're absolutely not having that effect on them. You are getting absolutely nowhere. That is because they are foolish people, which is both a Constitutional Right and a God-given one. They are no better than anyone else, despite their opinions. Granted, in America, they have the rights to believe what they want and to say what they want; however, we also have our rights and their's end where ours begin. If they don't like the freedoms granted to them being shared with everyone who does not commit criminal acts, they have the freedom to leave the country (provided they are not serving time for committing criminal acts or awaiting trial to prove their innocence). If they refuse to leave, then they can keep their opinions, judgements, and everything else to themselves. On the Day of Judgement, God will send his messenger-the angel of Bill Hicks-who will say, "Come on. Hendrix is on harp tonight!"
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-13-05, 01:07 AM	Who goes to hell and who doesn't is God's business. Not yours. Unless you claim to be perfect, you have no right to judge others. And if you're perfect, you won't. Quoted for truthery, and awesome...ery.
Solaris 08-13-05, 01:42 AM	I think you're all reading far too much into the prohibition against judgement. It was simply part of an admonishment against hypocrisy. In the same sermon, Jesus said to beware false prophets, you'll know them by their fruits. That requires some judgement. Later on, he says that if your brother sins, tell him off for it, and if he still does it, report him to the church. More judgement, and that one's even applicable to the matter at hand. It wasn't a blanket commandment never to judge. It was just pointing out that everyone's a sinner, and that the same judgements one makes of others will also be made of him. (We're probably getting too close to a violation of the Code of Conduct now, though)
Tyler Do'Urden 08-13-05, 01:53 AM	Your best bet is to downplay the roleplaying aspect. So many current players don't fully understand roleplaying, these people sure as hell won't. "D&D IS EVIL! YOU DO EVIL THINGS!" "...not really. It's all just paper, pencils and dice." "Really?" "Yeah. It's basically like chess only more complicated. Do you know how to play chess?" "Well, I uh... I like checkers."
Tenzhi 08-13-05, 02:15 AM	Meh. There's just no point in dealing with them. As they say, "Christianity is why god invented lions." Like Hollywood actors, not all of them are bad, but the ones who are are so bad that they tend to overshadow the rest. But that's just the way it goes with zealots of all breeds.
Thorak 08-13-05, 05:13 PM	Thorak, I suspect you're misunderstanding. Much of what you said would still be countered with the same arguments. For example: You say it's just a game. They say no, it's more than a game, and Satan wants you to think it's just a game. When you then reply once again that it's just a game, then as far as they're concerned you're just proving their point that you're being deluded by demons. Your protests are only confirming their beliefs. I know this is bogus. We all know this is bogus. But your attemts to draw a distinction between fantasy and reality here will not work. To them, this world is haunted by demons. Real, actual demons. And these demons are seeking every opportunity to get into you. D&D gives them an avenue to do so. Whether or not you, personally, recite a prayer to Odin, you're still playing the role of someone who channels demons for power. And just like saying "I cast Magic Missile" is enough to be tampering with Satanic forces, saying "My character prays to Odin" is enough. It's still the appearance of evil, and playing with it allows demons into your life. They're not judging you. They're trying to help you. You don't realize your life has been taken over by demons, and they're trying to help you see the truth. And if you don't see the truth and cast out the demons, then it's not a judgment, but rather a simple observation -- a trivial consequence of the theology -- that you're going to hell. You can quote all the scripture you want, and they'll reply that Satan quoted scripture to tempt Christ, and will assume that he's doing the same thing through you, and won't have any of it. They'll quote passages back to you which support their viewpoint, and ignore the ones you quote at them. You can cite old-testament commandments to which they don't adhere, and they'll reply that Jesus' sacrifice is a new covenant, and the old one doesn't apply anymore. My point is that the back-and-forth is useless. Your arguments will not penetrate, and will even serve to affirm their beliefs. If you love this stuff, then you must think you're winning, or making great points. But you're absolutely not having that effect on them. You are getting absolutely nowhere. Oh, I agree that I'll get nowhere with them. Most of the time. But I will, in the process of getting nowhere, demonstrate to anyone else who's paying attention that they can't hold their own in the argument. And yes, the passage on judgement refers to hypocrisy. The kind of hypocrisy that includes "quoting passages back to you which support their viewpoint, and ignoring the ones you quote at them." Besides, I notice you've avoided my point regarding the parable of the weeds. Bear with me for a moment, I'm not being preachy, just describing the parable for those who aren't familiar with it. This is also entirely my own paraphrase. A farmer and his servants plow a field. Their enemy comes out at night and sows weeds amongst the good plants. The servants see this, and ask the farmer what they should do. The farmer says to leave the weeds and let them grow, they will be separated out at the harvest. And, as Jesus goes on to explain in specific detail, in Matthew 13:36-43, that the farmer is Jesus, the field is the world, the good seed is the good people, the weeds are the 'sons of the evil one' or devils and sinners, and the enemy is Satan. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. In short, God is saying that evil people are his business, leave them to him. It never fails to amaze me, when the words of Jesus are all about forgiveness and love, that some followers of his words resort to fear, judgment, and hatred instead. The other parables just add to this; the parable of the lost sheep, for instance, where the shepherd (god) abandons the 99 good sheep who stayed together to chase after the one lost sheep. God doesn't care that the sheep is lost and does not blame it for being so. He merely seeks to bring it back to the herd and safety. The biggest problem most Christians have is that they don't really understand what Jesus talked about. He talked about complete forgiveness. If you repent, you will be forgiven. It doesn't matter if you were Hitler, if you repent, then God will accept you into his Kingdom with open arms. Most Christians don't like this because, being limited mortals, they can't grasp complete forgiveness. But that's God. God isn't human. I don't see why they can grasp an omniscient, all-powerful God, but not one who is all-forgiving as well.
katarl 08-13-05, 05:40 PM	The biggest problem most Christians have is that they don't really understand what Jesus talked about. He talked about complete forgiveness. If you repent, you will be forgiven. It doesn't matter if you were Hitler, if you repent, then God will accept you into his Kingdom with open arms. Most Christians don't like this because, being limited mortals, they can't grasp complete forgiveness. But that's God. God isn't human. I don't see why they can grasp an omniscient, all-powerful God, but not one who is all-forgiving as well. I agree entirely, Jesus taught forgiveness constantly, only resorting to violence once, and then only against property. How then can holy war or crusading be justified? Its like having Buddhist terrorists (of which there are a few), when Buddha taught nothing but peace and serenity. In the Quran, it states that if your enemies resort to peace, then so should you. Their anger and their violence does not stem from their religion, merely from themselves. In the same way, but to a far less dangerous (only annoying) purpose, do evangelists seek to convert the heathen (us), to make us give up our hobby because it refers to demons and evil creatures and to make us join their ongoing effort to change the world. These people wish to help, quite simply, and their motives are good ones. Their flaw is thinking that they know best (spiritual pride), and that teaching means approaching others to convert them. Christians are supposed to lead by example, and let others do believe as they wish, for if they push anything, they are compromising the purity of the converted' belief. You cannot argue about faith. I refuse to in any debate. When one abandons reason in favour of superstition and charisma, then they can never be wrong, in their minds. Why bother? Unexamined faith is worth nothing, so your faith must be based on something solid, or it is supreme arrogance (logic, and the universe is wrong, i am right, because i feel it). Don't argue with fundamentalists, it makes their day. Just smile and back away.
katarl 08-13-05, 06:17 PM	Looking back, i realise that this argument is one sided (and that i have just been reiterating what thorak already said). So, i'm going to be a Fundamentalist Christian till the end of this post. A bit of a stretch, since i'm not a christian at all, and pretty liberal. Here goes. Dnd is a corrupting influence because of the ideas it inspires, not for the content of its books. WotC talks only of rules and flavour, but in the minds of countless players, it is a personal fantasy, an escape from reality, and its problems to a virtual, unreal one. They are choosing fiction over fact, and are choosing to be ignorant of the flaws of life in favour of a perfect dream. This is not only unwise, but selfish. Think of how much greater the world would be if instead of trying to escape from reality, you made your own a little better. Then, dnd would be useless, for no-one would want to leave. The bible long talks of the evil-doing of magic users, fortune tellers and monsters. In dnd mages have no evil requirement in their alignment prerequisite, and this is misleading, there are only two types of magic- the magic of god, wielded only by the simple and the pure, and the dark, learned magic of faust and witches. Their abilities are a corruption of life, and they wield inordinate powers. Many people post threads on how magic makes peoples lives difficult, and how it is too much at epic. This is because magic unbalances the world, raising some above others. In the real world, kings and rulers are a necessary evil and their power is such only because their people allow it, but wizards are individuals, and can singlehandedly alter the course of thousands of people, and do, ignorant of its causes. This makes magic, innately evil. The images of dnd are often revealing and vile, but that is only part of a far worse aspect of the game. These pictures are portals into the minds of our youth, and the troubled psyches of the miserable, clinging onto their fantasies of might, and stature, in an indifferent world. These pictures are how our children see themselves ideally. Is this what we want them to become? If there is even a hint of diabolism in dnd, it should be stopped, for it is better to have saved one soul forever than to allow a million to enjoy a finite experience, and condemn just that one. Faerun is a logical world. Players, whether theyre allowed to show it ingame or not, they know everything. Everything is in its proper place. Life isn't like that, dnd elevates players (and especially the dm) to the status of gods, and they take joy in their power. No-one should ever play God, for absolute power corrupts absolutely, even the illusion of it. By giving into their most primal urges for dominance, they are the gaming equivalent of Lawful Evil, for they begin to believe they have the right to do anything, because they can. You will notice how liberal and tolerant players are. I know few dnd homophobes, true racists or those who shun others for preferences or opinions. They tolerate all beings, no matter how depraved. Why? Because like so many other things, their exposure to vile actions desensitises them to it, so young too. When a 9 year old sees a murder, and considers it to be not that big a deal, we know it is wrong. We want to be sensitive to things, as we were naturally intended, for then we can react appropriately. Just because things happen all the time does not make it right, just like if a million believe something, it doesn't make it correct. What would Jesus do? Many of us have the bracelets, but who applies it? Can you honestly believe that he would approve of your game? Show him its intricacies, your house rules. Show him the BoVD, show him the BoED, and know that you are wrong. Show him your obsessive quest to escape the world he created, and died for. You'd feel ashamed, and thats our argument. okay, now we have an opposition. Flame away.
Tenzhi 08-14-05, 01:39 AM	Dnd is a corrupting influence because of the ideas it inspires, not for the content of its books. WotC talks only of rules and flavour, but in the minds of countless players, it is a personal fantasy, an escape from reality, and its problems to a virtual, unreal one. They are choosing fiction over fact, and are choosing to be ignorant of the flaws of life in favour of a perfect dream. This is not only unwise, but selfish. Think of how much greater the world would be if instead of trying to escape from reality, you made your own a little better. Then, dnd would be useless, for no-one would want to leave. Yes, but this can be applied to any fictional world one can immerse one's self in - be it television, books, or whatever. Essentially, it is a statement that the mind itself is evil.
katarl 08-14-05, 08:23 AM	Heres some more fundamentalist drivel i came up with: Yes, but this can be applied to any fictional world one can immerse one's self in - be it television, books, or whatever. Essentially, it is a statement that the mind itself is evil. The mind is not innately evil, but reliance on such things for life is. If you need television to fill the empty void in your life, you are looking in the wrong place. Fill your mind with that which is good, and be a positive influence in others, and it will be filled, and you will no longer feel such a desire to escape. The act of escapism itself is not evil, but the obsessive pursuit of it, like so many gamers do, is. Do you enjoy your games? Its a stupid question, i know, for if you didn't, you wouldn't be here. But why do you enjoy it? You enjoy the roleplay, the progression from weak 1st level to the mighty epic levels. You enjoy the treasure hunting, the social interaction and the power-playing. Are you not satisfying your greed, your avarice, your desire to be someone else and your desire to be greater than your friends. You are unhappy with what you were given, ungrateful for the life that you lead, and look to becoming someone else to solve it. Surely you realise that it is a temporary solution, for when the session ends, you are plain old you again. Theres only one permanent solution, and by sacrificing your infinite happiness, you gain only finite respite. You adventure for gold, glory and power. Some may adventure to right wrongs, or so they say, but at the end of the day, you want to be better than when you started, measuring your success in xp or gold. Real life success is not measured by experience, might or wealth, for you only hold onto these things for a mere blip in the vastness of time. You lose it all in the end, because you can take nothing with you. You will be judged by your faith, your morality, and to a lesser extent, your actions. Your faith is being comprimised when you play, for, no matter how weakly or for such a short time, you lose touch with reality, and its God. Your morality weakens, for you begin to accept evil, that it is a reasonable choice, and your resolve in destroying impurity is shattered, as you ask less who is harmed by their actions, and more, what made them to become that way. Evil becomes a scholarly interest and a psychological phenomona, not a vile force or a fight. And finally, your actions. Do your actions in character reflect your actual personality? Many people here say it does not, for it is only a game. True, it is only a game, but your characters, whether you realise it or not, are dim shadows of your ideal, what you long to be. A person who plays a blackguard must see some dark joy in his or her mind, that part of them wants to be a moral fiend. It may be fun, it may not hurt anyone. But it is a mirror image of their psyche, that through dnd, they unleash on the world. Practice makes perfect. A strange irony. The longer you think, act and play your fictional character, the more you become it, even if only slightly. It is this slight evil that we hate, for any corruption, on any scale, is unacceptable. A million souls hating us for ruining their game is a good price for that slight improvement. Yep, another long, droning and irrelevant post. Thanks go to my old church youth group leader, whose arguments these were, against dnd, long ago.
Azzy 08-14-05, 12:24 PM	Right, Otto, you've just single-handedly caused this thread to warrant closing.
red_scare87 08-14-05, 12:25 PM	why has nobody responded to this post by Otto? Furthermore, why hasn't Wizards removed it? Though it doesn't offend me in any way, being agnostic, I want it removed. It doesn't belong here.
Azzy 08-14-05, 12:39 PM	72. Explain why Christians have harassed Wiccans ("white witches") for almost two thousand years now, when the central rule of the Wiccan ethical system is "an it harm no one, do what thou wilt." For anyone to have harassed Wiccans "for almost two thousand years," you'd think that Wiccans would have had to have been about prior to the invention of Wicca by Gerald Gardner in the 1940s/1950s. Maybe they've got that whole time-travel thing kickin'. :rolleyes:
Otto the Bugbear 08-14-05, 12:57 PM	If that makes it deserving of being closed, then make it so. As for it not being here, this thread started with someone having problems being harassed by christians. These questions can be asked of those harassers to get them off your back. Or to show them the error of their ways. More likely, it'll just make them even more mad. How dare you question what they do, even when they're questioning you on what you do! And, I don't know anything about that 1940s/1950s thing. However, if they've only been around for 60 years or so, how is it the bible says to persecute them? p.s. I didn't write those, just copied them down. That wasn't meant to be an inflamatory post. I'm sorry if it offends your sensibilities. That being said, if the WizOs feel it should be deleted, they will delete it. As for me, I stand by my decision to post it, so I won't be deleting anything. Cheers Otto :)
ORC_Paradox 08-14-05, 01:08 PM	Yeah, we're crossing some lines here. Once again supporting the ban on religious/political discussions. *Clicked with care*