Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aetheryn 04-19-07, 04:33 PM	Why did you cut up Paizo's publishing license for Dragon and Dungeon? Why have you killed a big piece of gaming history? That's all I want to know. Sincerely, A Concerned Fan
primemover003 04-19-07, 05:21 PM	I concur... Online is NOT where we're finding our gaming materials. We like to hold books and dice and pencils and MAGAZINES in our hands. I don't own a laptop and even if I did I'd still be toting a notebook with PAPER to my weekly gaming sessions... You're probably gonna get a lot of nasty letters in the near future... I don't envy your mailbox, real or virtual. I'll probably make a T-shirt touting my own personal displeasure and wear it to GenCon this year. That'll be fun.
Yaeri 04-19-07, 05:31 PM	Do you know how tempting it was to start a new account named Scott Rouse and come reply to this thread? :D :p
Aetheryn 04-19-07, 05:37 PM	Do you know how tempting it was to start a new account named Scott Rouse and come reply to this thread? :D :pProbably very veeerrry tempting. :P
Seeker95 04-19-07, 07:46 PM	From an old-timer nostalgia perspective, I do not like the decision. From a business decision, it is brilliant. 30,000 total issues of Dragon each month. Overseas folks cannot really afford them, and shipping and production costs are ridiculous. Turn it into an online distribution model, and you can reach everyone that can get online. Heck, these Boards alone have a higher membership rate than Dragon Magazine. And I suspect the Boards membership represents a very small proportion of the folks that access the website. I defer judgment until I see what they are selling.
primemover003 04-19-07, 07:54 PM	Yeah but will we PAY for it, is the real question...
someonelse812 04-19-07, 08:43 PM	Yeah but will we PAY for it, is the real question... NO
rycanada 04-19-07, 08:48 PM	From a business decision, it is brilliant. 30,000 total issues of Dragon each month. Overseas folks cannot really afford them, and shipping and production costs are ridiculous. Turn it into an online distribution model, and you can reach everyone that can get online. Ummm.. you know that Wizards doesn't do Dragon or Dungeon in-house, right? I mean, the production costs of the magazine aren't Wizard's problem. The Dragon and Dungeon staff basically all moved to Paizo, which was founded when Hasbro decided that WotC shouldn't do the magazine in-house. So a lot of people left Wizards for Paizo, and now a lot of those people will lose their jobs. This reminds me of when IBM would have a department break off into a separate company, and give the employees an option "Join that company or lose your job." When they join the company, they lose their seniority and the severance package they would get. Then IBM would cancel the contract with the other company, and the employees get basically no severance (and whether they do or don't isn't IBM's problem, of course).
Seeker95 04-19-07, 09:15 PM	Ummm.. you know that Wizards doesn't do Dragon or Dungeon in-house, right? I mean, the production costs of the magazine aren't Wizard's problem.It is not merely an issue of production costs. It is the combination of production, sales and distribution. Wizards could only make as much money from the license as Paizo could afford to pay. See below for more...The Dragon and Dungeon staff basically all moved to Paizo, which was founded when Hasbro decided that WotC shouldn't do the magazine in-house.The cost of producing the magazines was higher than the revenue benefits justified, since distrobution was much smaller for the magazines than for the other product lines. A few folks at WotC suggested spinning off the magazines to a new entity. Those folks went with the magazines. But the same problem remained. It is not an accident that Paizo began publishing and producing more than just the magazines. It needed better revenue than Dragon and Dungeon could generate. The beauty of the new suggested approach that WotC is taking (depending on how they implement it) is that it allows the distribution net to be cast much wider with production costs cut by a lot. International sales can increase dramatically. Probably much higher than the 30,000 total issues of Dragon each month. Heck, it can probably get that many sales through European gamers alone.So a lot of people left Wizards for Paizo, and now a lot of those people will lose their jobs.Very few folks at Paizo (if any at all) will lose their jobs. Paizo is still publishing modules, books, games and accessories. And it is replacing Dungeon and Dragon magazines with Pathfinder. Titles at Paizo may change. Jobs won't.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 04-19-07, 10:51 PM	It isn't that hard to see the business motivation behind this move. 1) They will be able to spread the material normally in the mags to an even larger audience. I.E poeple that A did not have a subscription, but do have have acess to the interent. I would I imagine that would be a a lot of poeple, as it includes peopele over sees. And poeple who do not have enough income to sapport the subscription. (This also includes poepl like me who see no r3eason to pay for someone like that.) 2) It gives WotC direct controll over the product. seeing as how the material in the mags was considered official canon it only makes sence that WotC would want total controll over it. not that Skip Williams, or whomever does the sage is all that better then advice on these boards, but that is a debate for another time. Also what gets me is that amount of *****ing, and whining that goes on whenever a company does somethig like this. You really don't like what a company is doing, then treat it like any other bad DM, and vote with your feet. Or in this case exersice your right as a consumer. I.E don't by their product. For example when WotC sued Rancored elf i stopped playing, and purchasing M:TG products. haven't gone back, yet, and I prolly never will.
Zherog 04-20-07, 08:29 AM	The Dragon and Dungeon staff basically all moved to Paizo, which was founded when Hasbro decided that WotC shouldn't do the magazine in-house. So a lot of people left Wizards for Paizo, and now a lot of those people will lose their jobs. Nobody at Paizo has lost their job; they've hired three new people as a matter of fact. You could argue that it's a kick in the nuts for freelance writers, who now (in the short term at least) have fewer venues, since Paizo's new product lines (Pathfinder and Gamemastery) are, at the moment, by "invite only." It isn't that hard to see the business motivation behind this move. 1) They will be able to spread the material normally in the mags to an even larger audience. I.E poeple that A did not have a subscription, but do have have acess to the interent. I would I imagine that would be a a lot of poeple, as it includes peopele over sees. And poeple who do not have enough income to sapport the subscription. (This also includes poepl like me who see no r3eason to pay for someone like that.) You seem to be assuming the on-line content will be free. 2) It gives WotC direct controll over the product. seeing as how the material in the mags was considered official canon it only makes sence that WotC would want total controll over it. not that Skip Williams, or whomever does the sage is all that better then advice on these boards, but that is a debate for another time. WotC already had complete and total control over everything in both magazines. Every month, before the magazines went to the printers, WotC reviewed all the content. I know of at least three occasions where WotC rejected an article at this stage of the game, forcing Paizo to find something else to fill the void.
Azezel 04-20-07, 10:34 AM	The trouble with killing the magazines and replacing them with an e-zine is fourfold, as I see it. 1) Dragon was a damned good advertisment. Just the title, 'Dragon' was good. Someone browsing for a magazine picks it up, not knowing what it is - just like that, WotC have a new customer, ready to buy a pile of game manuals because the magazine makes the game look fun. 2) My laptop battery lasts 90 minutes, if I'm lucky. I don't know how long a magazine lasts, but the oldest one I own has a pre-decimalisation price on the cover. I can read magazines wherever I go, I can cut out articles, I can lend them to people, I can draw spectacles on the picture. Dead trees are simply much better than .pdf for a magazine. Besides which - if I spend any longer each day staring at a screen, my optician will lynch me. 3) With the possible exception of Salon - which isn't really comparable at all, I know of no electronic pay-periodical which ever made a profit. And since it won't make a profit, the quality will be extremely low. 4) The WotC IT department can barely run a website and forum. I have very little confidence in their ability to publish a monthly e-zine that is any more complex than a rich text document. So essentially, what will happen is that Pathfinder will sell 30'000 issues a month, and Wizards' e-zine will already be a 'new coke' type joke by the time it's eleventh and final issue comes out.
Miss_Yersinia 04-20-07, 11:02 AM	Overseas folks cannot really afford them Actually not true. The dollar isn't the highest currency around here... I get the magazines for a value of five pounds (UK). Ditto for the euro - it is also strong enough to make it relatively cheap. So it won't draw in oversea people more than before. IT department can barely run a website and forum. I have very little confidence in their ability to publish a monthly e-zine that is any more complex than a rich text document. Now, to be fair, the forum has Michael Morris as admin. And he's pretty good. And friendly. The website staff... well, they're not daft, they're good, but totally overwhelmed. And they need a bunch of new servers. Because, y'know the MtG-previews kill the servers quite regularly. But then Hasbro seems to have a different impression of how the internets' work.
Miss_Yersinia 04-20-07, 11:22 AM	2) It gives WotC direct controll over the product. seeing as how the material in the mags was considered official canon it only makes sence that WotC would want total controll over it. not that Skip Williams, or whomever does the sage is all that better then advice on these boards, but that is a debate for another time. Actually, Wizards' canon is less controlled than you think... and you know that the some guys who control the mags (Erik Mona for instance) are WotC freelancers? In fact, Erik Mona worked on FC I: Hordes of the Abyss and has done canon stuff there as well, so it's not that much a canon/officialism problem. Also what gets me is that amount of *****ing, and whining that goes on whenever a company does somethig like this. You really don't like what a company is doing, then treat it like any other bad DM, and vote with your feet. Or in this case exersice your right as a consumer. I.E don't by their product. For example when WotC sued Rancored elf i stopped playing, and purchasing M:TG products. haven't gone back, yet, and I prolly never will. True dat. Vote with your feet! :)
SHazle 04-20-07, 11:25 AM	I've been trying to find a thread where I point out a few things, and this seems less harsh than most others, so here goes... I (and i assume others) buy Dragon and Dungeon from my FLGS. This allows me to look through each and decide if the content is something I'd like to have. Sometimes this wasn't possible due to plastic covers to protect inserts, but for the most part it worked out great. I ended out buying every issue of Dragon since #274 (the first 3rd edition issue). Not so much with Dungeon, I only own about 2 out of every 3. The option to make this decision at the store makes the purchase more personal. What if WOTC started only putting out electronic publication? No hard cover books, just PDFs or some other format. Sales would surely drop. Often these magazines were the sole reason for going to the store, and while browsing I would purchase other things. The limited quantities at my FLGS would induce me to get there the day of each release, not a factor with any other product. Without this, I will only go once a month, or less, and at my leisure, to sample the new releases to see if I need or what them. This is less time in the store with product in my face. Online content is a great idea. What Wizards is trying to do (whatever it might become) is innovative and progressive. It might not work, but you won't know until they try. But Dragon and Dungeon magazine wouldn't have offered competition for customer base. People who what content, buy content wherever they can find it. Create quality content and the customers will come to you. Eliminate a good content provider to create a vacuum so the new one will have more room in the niche just says that you are not confidant of your product. In my early gaming years, I would often borrow my friends' copies of Dragon to help enrich my worlds and characters. I just don't know how this will work with online or PDF content. I could make a copy (pirate) of what I have, but then my friend wouldn't have to purchase it if he liked it. If it is mostly online (like it is now), how will I access it in 5 years, I can still pull out Dragons from 5, 10, 20 years ago, not so much with online content. Without more information on what Wizards has to offer I don't have any further insites, except that the content needs to be several times better than what goes on the D&D site now, to make me what to pay for it. Thank you for your time. -Scott Hazle
Evil DM Mk3 04-20-07, 11:32 AM	Actually not true. The dollar isn't the highest currency around here... I get the magazines for a value of five pounds (UK). Ditto for the euro - it is also strong enough to make it relatively cheap. Yay 26 year £ to $ high! Internets shoppign great. It was the very reason why I WAS ABOUT TO SUBSTIBE TO BOTH FRIKIN MAGS. I refuse to play for onlien content, it is less useful for use in a game and quality frequently suffers.
Grand Theft Otto 04-20-07, 11:34 AM	And poeple who do not have enough income to sapport the subscription. (This also includes poepl like me who see no r3eason to pay for someone like that.) I know its 4/20 and all, but do you really think you're going to be getting 3-4 quality adventures per month, for substantially less than 3 bucks a month? Now add in printing fees. Dont forget its a bunch of loose pages. Oh, you want to download it? Dollars to donuts its going to have a license attached where you cant use it after you unsubscribe.
Azezel 04-20-07, 12:13 PM	Now, to be fair, the forum has Michael Morris as admin. And he's pretty good. And friendly. The website staff... well, they're not daft, they're good, but totally overwhelmed. And they need a bunch of new servers. Because, y'know the MtG-previews kill the servers quite regularly. But then Hasbro seems to have a different impression of how the internets' work. He's probably a nice chap - but my point still stands. Wizards has a less-than-stellar record with this interweb thing, and now they are proposing to do something that no-one has ever done before - to publish a succesful pay-ezine. I'd call it courageous - but it looks like foolishness from where I'm standing. Especially since the first act of this drama was a calculated slap in the face to the thirty thousand people who are the target audience.
Zherog 04-20-07, 12:45 PM	...and now they are proposing to do something that no-one has ever done before - to publish a succesful pay-ezine. I'd call it courageous - but it looks like foolishness from where I'm standing. I don't think WotC has said they're doing an e-zine. They've simply said, "Wizards of the Coast will be moving the kind of content currently found in Dragon and Dungeon to an online model." That might mean an e-zine. That might just mean more articles on the site every week. It might mean having to pay to access a certain section, or not. We just don't know what WotC has in mind.
Steely_Dan 04-20-07, 12:53 PM	I don't think WotC has said they're doing an e-zine. They've simply said, "Wizards of the Coast will be moving the kind of content currently found in Dragon and Dungeon to an online model." That might just mean more articles on the site every week. Please let it be this. I've been into Dragon since 1987 (when I started playing this strange game), but I would much prefer free online material, instead of worrying about finding a copy of a magazine, or my latest issue due to subscription getting lost in the mail (you can't trust the post these days).
Miss_Yersinia 04-20-07, 01:04 PM	It might mean having to pay to access a certain section, or not. We just don't know what WotC has in mind. It will mean that for sure. Why? If they're offering free stuff AND losing the Paizo licensing fees, they're losing out money. Therefore, they want to do something that's profitable. Or the license is directly conflicting with something of their plans. And they've stated it's electronic content. Therefore, it must be something that's supposed to make money. Everything else would be a loss of money and therefore a very, very bad decision, especially with killing off two iconic magazines. Probably, we're paying for the website soon, actually that's more probable than an e-zine.
TheYeti1775 04-20-07, 01:11 PM	*SNIP* We just don't know what WotC has in mind. And that right there is a major problem of late. They are taking actions pulling everything in house, and not letting those of us that actually purchase their products, even the bad ones, know what the heck is going on. Yeti
Zherog 04-20-07, 01:31 PM	And that right there is a major problem of late. They are taking actions pulling everything in house, and not letting those of us that actually purchase their products, even the bad ones, know what the heck is going on. Yeti Yep, I agree completely. Paizo did two things with this news. 1) They used it as a launching pad for their new products. Everybody over there is really excited about both Pathfinder and the expansion of the Gamemastery line. That enthusiasm shows whenever they discuss it - from the CEO (Lisa Stevens) down to the editors, and even the freelancers I know who have worked on the products. Everybody involved is excited, and their enthusiasm shows. 2) Paizo also demonstrated what good customer service is all about. From the moment the announcements hit, the entire staff has been on-line answering questions on their message boards. I saw one post by James Jacobs that occurred well after midnight his time. Again, everybody from the CEO on down to Customer Service reps have been posting, answering questions, solving problems, and just generally being available. Contrast that to WotC. They might have some truly wonderful, amazing ideas in mind. But we don't know, so all we have is wild speculation. And they continue to keep quiet. I hear e-mails to customer service are now being bounced back as undeliverable. I hear nobody is answering the phones on the customer service desk. I have yet to see a post any where around this forum from somebody at WotC talking about the decision and what's coming up. It's quite the contrast between the two companies, to be sure.
Seeker95 04-20-07, 02:54 PM	2) Paizo also demonstrated what good customer service is all about. From the moment the announcements hit, the entire staff has been on-line answering questions on their message boards. Contrast that to WotC. They might have some truly wonderful, amazing ideas in mind. But we don't know, so all we have is wild speculation. And they continue to keep quiet. It's quite the contrast between the two companies, to be sure.It makes sense, actually. Paizo is selling itself. People calling Paizo need convinced that Paizo is still worth following. It *has to* be proactive. It needs to convert ill-will into sales. It is losing money if folks who know only Dungeon and Dragon magazines lose faith in Paizo. People calling WotC need a cooling off period. WotC gains NOTHING answering its phones right now. And with four months before it needs to produce anything, it is smart to remain quiet and let us speculate ourselves all to hell and back. WotC has millions of customers around the world, and only 80,000 total subscribers to Dungeon and Dragon (probably fewer, since I suspect there is a lot of overlap in the subscriber base).
Yaeri 04-20-07, 06:37 PM	About the magazines being too pricy foreign: Strangely enough, they aren't that pricy. When I want to buy dragon magazine in the store here, it costs me +/- €14.(or 19$). However, if I subscribe online at Paizo, I can 1) pay a decent price 2) pay in dollar Even though I would have to pay a shipment cost to Europe, because I'd pay in dollars (which are cheaper than euros) the price is actually not too high at all. The same goes for buying my D&D books online via amazon. It's actually ridiculous how much money I save buying my books online, despite having to pay shipping costs for each book and for each shipment. (Big D&D books like spell compendium or draconomicon cost around €40 here = 54$) Oh yeah, and "here" is Belgium. :)