Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Will_DM_for_Pizza 05-20-07, 02:41 PM	Why in most if not all books are the gods of the dead evil? I mean Nerull is the reaper, but why is he evil? Death needs to exist. Kelemvor (Forgotten Realms) is Lawful Neuteral. Something I think falls more under an appropriate god of the dead. idk, just my ranting, but please reply if you've wondered the same thing.
Sunic_Flames 05-20-07, 02:50 PM	Nerull is evil because he actively seeks to bring about death, sponsoring mass murder cults and so forth. Evil by any means necessary, Neutral Evil. Kelemvor simply runs the underworld because it's necessary, pragmatism. Lawful Neutral.
Astron the Wizard 05-20-07, 03:37 PM	exactly so. It's not just their portfolio, but more like their 'personality'
CantripN 05-20-07, 06:15 PM	And there's an Undead Love god, too... CG, I believe. Heck, Kelemvor used to be LG, until Ao stepped in.
KillerGM 05-20-07, 07:50 PM	Wee Jas is also a deity of death. She's LN.
queenfange 05-20-07, 08:38 PM	Part of the problem is the overlap between death and undead. Undead are (for the most part) blatantly evil, while death doesn't have to be. So, a good deity offering a domain that included spells to animate skeletons is pretty messed up. One option is to use the Repose domain, though I just altered the Death domain, removing undead spells, and created a seperate Undeath domain. It's easy to think of death as evil; I think that's the main reason. Personally, I usually keep gods of death neutral; death doesn't discriminate by alignment, race, class, or any damn other mortal classification.
Jaxgaret 05-20-07, 09:17 PM	I mean Nerull is the reaper, but why is he evil? Death needs to exist. Nerull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerull) is not the Grim Reaper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grim_reaper). Certain humans view and/or worship him as The Reaper, but that is not the same thing as being so. He in no way embodies the concept of the Angel of Death. He is just a murderous hateful bastard of a god.
Rumple_Cragstan 05-21-07, 01:21 AM	Part of the problem is the overlap between death and undead. Undead are (for the most part) blatantly evil, while death doesn't have to be. This is an idea I've always been rather confused by. How exactly are undead evil? Whats the difference between animating a corpse, and animating a lamp? Its just the influx of energy into a lifeless shell that causes it to become alive, or have a semblance of living.
Jaxgaret 05-21-07, 02:01 AM	This is an idea I've always been rather confused by. How exactly are undead evil? Whats the difference between animating a corpse, and animating a lamp? Its just the influx of energy into a lifeless shell that causes it to become alive, or have a semblance of living. Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm) These are the four monsters that the spell allows you to create: Ghouls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm), Ghasts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm#ghast), Mummies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mummy.htm) and Mohrgs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mohrg.htm). Note that under Alignment, all of these creatures are Evil. Same goes for Animate Dead.
penchant 05-21-07, 03:50 AM	As long as you are speaking within the game system, then its "because the rules say so". To get a different answer you have to realize that the D&D system is based upon an entirely Western Judeo Christian outlook without integrating any of the good points of Judeo Christianity. In JC, it is clearly stated that "death is the enemy." Mankind was cursed with death at the betrayal of God's law by Adam. You have to explore Eastern philosophy to get answers like, "death is part of the natural cycle" and "death washes away the wearyness of the world." Such philosophies are labeled as death cults and inherently evil by the west. Samurai who worshipped bushido who lived to die and killed without remorse or pity would be evil in western (and D&D) standards, but were the epitome of the ideal in feudal Japan. Reincarnation is the natural way (and not a high level spell) in many eastern philosophies. In short, the predilicion of death being evil is not the gods as written in D&D but in western curlture. Now I don't want to argue over (and will not respond to) religion, I'm simply pointing out where these beliefs come from.
Lina_Inverse 05-21-07, 06:09 AM	This is an idea I've always been rather confused by. How exactly are undead evil? Whats the difference between animating a corpse, and animating a lamp? Its just the influx of energy into a lifeless shell that causes it to become alive, or have a semblance of living. In the case of intelligent undead. Your stealing someones soul and shoving a heaping helping of non-existence into it. Souls are made from positive energy, undead are animated by negative energy you do the math.
VrecknidjX 05-21-07, 11:10 AM	Why in most if not all books are the gods of the dead evil?Generally speaking, most people of most cultures have viewed death as bad. It may be understood that death is inevitable, and some may even argue that it's necessary or ecologically important or something like that. But, most folks will point out, when asked, that, of all their options on any given day, dying is usually a pretty low priority, and, for that matter, to be avoided at almost any cost. While this doesn't make death evil, and it certainly doesn't mean that a deity over death should be evil, it's not too hard to see where the various cultures, over time, have developed this position. Dave
Sarella Starshine 05-21-07, 11:41 AM	Death in and among itself is not 'Evil'. All things die. Where it becomes 'Evil' is how death occurs. *Most* (but by all means not all) 'Evil' death gods are active in bringing about death. Which means, they will kill things just to see them die. The Neutral gods of death view it as the natural end of life. They are not actively bringing about death, but nor will they try to stop it. This also ties in with the undead being 'Evil' as well. Neutral gods of death *usually* (but not always) view undead as being 'Evil' because it is a mockery of death. Things die. Dead things should not be living. Undead are living dead things. The few Neutral gods of death who *don't* view undead as 'Evil' view undead as tools. Now, before you get your panties in a wad and start foaming at the mouth about resurrection...keep in mind, that resurection spells only work if you are *prematurely* dead. You *cannot* resurrect someone that has died of old age, but you can turn them into any form of undead. Its a subtle difference, but it's a big one in tis subtlety.
StormKnight 05-21-07, 02:26 PM	Why in most if not all books are the gods of the dead evil? Generally, they are not gods of the dead, they are gods of death. Gods of the dead tend to souls after life and help keep the world in proper balance (and are what you find in most classical mythology). Gods of death tend to...kill stuff.
Sudnji_cas 05-21-07, 02:34 PM	An evil god of life would certainly be an interesting twist.
Prof. Pacali 05-21-07, 04:31 PM	As long as you are speaking within the game system, then its "because the rules say so". To get a different answer you have to realize that the D&D system is based upon an entirely Western Judeo Christian outlook without integrating any of the good points of Judeo Christianity. In JC, it is clearly stated that "death is the enemy." Mankind was cursed with death at the betrayal of God's law by Adam. You have to explore Eastern philosophy to get answers like, "death is part of the natural cycle" and "death washes away the wearyness of the world." Such philosophies are labeled as death cults and inherently evil by the west. Samurai who worshipped bushido who lived to die and killed without remorse or pity would be evil in western (and D&D) standards, but were the epitome of the ideal in feudal Japan. Reincarnation is the natural way (and not a high level spell) in many eastern philosophies. In short, the predilicion of death being evil is not the gods as written in D&D but in western curlture. Now I don't want to argue over (and will not respond to) religion, I'm simply pointing out where these beliefs come from. Just want to clarify some of these comments, as a practitioner of one of the components of Judeo-Christianity. Death is a punishment, but it is also a natural part of the life cycle. Coming back from the dead is not necessarily a perversion of life when god allows it (see the case of Elisha resurrecting the child), but when it is not allowed, and the person doing the raising perverts the natural order, it is a no-no (see the Witch of Ein-dor). Also the concept of death as a release from the burdens of this world are expressed in Job. The real problem the way I see it is that Nerull is not a neutral entity collecting souls who have just died, he is actively trying to up the body count. Compare him to Wee Jas, who is concerned that the dead stay dead, but isn't interested in killing people (unless they are trying to bring the dead back as a mockery of life, in which case her clerics may be sent after you.) Furthermore, Nerull hates the living, and encourages the creation of unlife. Kelemvor can more accurately be compared with the Greek god Hades, who held onto the dead. (Although even the Greeks viewed Hades as slightly sinister, and appeased him more than actually worshipped him.) Also because of the D&D view of the afterlife, where worshippers become petitioners after they die, Nerull is superfluous. Death happens regardless of his actions, and he doesn't get anyone but his cultists after they die. If he were able to claim the souls of those he or his worshippers killed Nerull might be a more fearsome entity, but since he can't he's just a powerful lunatic with a scythe.
Astron the Wizard 05-21-07, 04:36 PM	Just want to clarify some of these comments, as a practitioner of one of the components of Judeo-Christianity. Sorry, but what exactly is the difference between Judeo-Christianity and Christianity? I don't really make it my business to study religion (or rather, branches of religion)
Prof. Pacali 05-21-07, 04:47 PM	Sorry, but what exactly is the difference between Judeo-Christianity and Christianity? I don't really make it my business to study religion (or rather, branches of religion) Sorry, I was trying to keep it vague to avoid violating the COC, not to confuse people. I'm from the Judeo branch, not the Christian one. Hopefully that's still vague enough.
Astron the Wizard 05-21-07, 04:49 PM	Yup. Very vague (is that how you spell it? or is it vauge?). I still have no idea what you're talking about! :D I'll just use google...
CantripN 05-21-07, 05:55 PM	Yup. Very vague (is that how you spell it? or is it vauge?). I still have no idea what you're talking about! :D I'll just use google... Basically, the two religions share a great deal... ...the term refers to the common Old Testament/Tanakh (which is a basis of both moral traditions, including particularly the Ten Commandments); and implies a common set of values present in the modern Western World... - Wikipedia. Judeo-Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian)
Morwen 05-21-07, 06:28 PM	Why in most if not all books are the gods of the dead evil? I mean Nerull is the reaper, but why is he evil? Death needs to exist. Kelemvor (Forgotten Realms) is Lawful Neuteral. Something I think falls more under an appropriate god of the dead. I wonder where your original statement comes from. You mention one evil god of death, and one non-evil god of death, and yet you claim that most if not all gods of death are evil.. :confused:
penchant 05-21-07, 11:37 PM	If you look at non western mythos, such as the egyptians (called the Pharonic Pantheon in the Deities & Demigods) they have a different view of death. While Anubis is the god of death and is LN, Osiris is the god of the Underworld and is LG. Hell, he's even undead himself as he was turned into a mummy after he was murdered and chopped into little pieces by Set. Nephtys has Death in her portfolio and is CG.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 05-22-07, 01:54 PM	Why in most if not all books are the gods of the dead evil? Cos humans fear death and, being the simple creatures we are, we generally equate "scary" to "evil."
SlanderPanic 05-22-07, 03:32 PM	On Kelemvor and Jergal: Kelemvor is neutral, but his predecessors, Cyric and Myrkul, were evil in the extreme. Their predecessor, Jergal, purged himself of most of his evil when he divided his original portfolio (death, strife, and murder) among Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal. Jergal sanctions the creation of undead by his followers, so long as those undead are used to keep the balance between life and death. He cares only for order and part of that order is his servitude to Kelemvor. Kelemvor, in order to better serve as a judge of the dead, purged himself of both compassion and malice, becoming neutral. While he is more humane (because he was once human) than Jergal, he is also just as devoted to the order and balance of life and death. On undeath: Animate dead is an evil spell because it rips unwilling souls from their afterlives and forces them to animate their mutilated remains, infusing the souls with negative energy. This process is painful and traumatizing in the extreme and can permanently damage the soul. Create undead is evil because, not only does it do all of the above, it also deliberately twists the soul into a creature of pure evil which (in most cases) must feed from the living in some way in order to maintain its existence.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-22-07, 06:36 PM	On undeath: Animate dead is an evil spell because it rips unwilling souls from their afterlives and forces them to animate their mutilated remains, infusing the souls with negative energy. This process is painful and traumatizing in the extreme and can permanently damage the soul. Which is completely false however. Skeletons and zombies that you might get from animate dead have no soul, nor does a petitioner on the outer planes suffer in any way from their cast away corporeal shell being used as animated labor. Nor of course is the negative energy used to do the job evil. Create undead is evil because Of course it's quite possible that a person might willingly accept such a state, in which case there's no forced 'twisting' about it. Many uses of the spell are grossly evil, but not all cases, which precludes it being a blanket case.
Tequila_Sunrise 05-22-07, 06:40 PM	I mean Nerull is the reaper, but why is he evil? Death needs to exist. Does it? I imagine the world would be much different without death, but the world wouldn't stop turning without death. As to your question: Death is the most terrifying concept that mortals suffer from, so it is only natural that we tend to associate it with evil.
Heros_Backpack 05-22-07, 07:25 PM	Death needs to exist. Does it? I imagine the world would be much different without death, but the world wouldn't stop turning without death. To take the 'no death' rule to its logical extreme: If plants cannot die, no creatures will be able to eat anything. If the plants and creatures cannot die, there will never be nutrients for any plants to grow from. If plants cannot grow, the world will have no oxygen in its atmosphere. If nothing is dying, then sedimentary rocks will not be able to form and nor will coal, oil or gas. If the sedimentary rocks cannot form, there will be little or no land available to live on. :devil: So, let me welcome you to a world with no land to live on, no breathable air, nothing to eat and no way to keep warm - but cheer up! You can't die here! :ayyyy!:
JulesCARV 05-22-07, 09:10 PM	Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and say I think death is an evil in real life. That isn't to say there's anything we can really do about it, but it's still a terrible thing that causes suffering, loss, fear, and pain. I know many people find this view odd, because we're supposed to think that death's inevitability means that we should accept it from a moral perspective, but I... well, don't. :)
penchant 05-22-07, 10:42 PM	I will die. You will die. Everyone dies. To fear the inevitable, is to fear life itself. Life is not a state but a journey, like flying. Every bird must land and every soul must come home.
Devil Gnasher 05-23-07, 01:37 AM	If you look at non western mythos, such as the egyptians (called the Pharonic Pantheon in the Deities & Demigods) they have a different view of death. While Anubis is the god of death and is LN, Osiris is the god of the Underworld and is LG. Hell, he's even undead himself as he was turned into a mummy after he was murdered and chopped into little pieces by Set. Nephtys has Death in her portfolio and is CG. In 1st edition Osiris was a Lawful Good god of negative energy (because of his status as an undead) and positive energy, due to his role as a god of agriculture. While Ra, the sun god, was strictly a god of positive energy, albeit a Lawful Neutral deity who was a friend of Set.
Rumple_Cragstan 05-29-07, 04:26 PM	Which is completely false however. Skeletons and zombies that you might get from animate dead have no soul, nor does a petitioner on the outer planes suffer in any way from their cast away corporeal shell being used as animated labor. Nor of course is the negative energy used to do the job evil. Can we get some reference on this? As much as I believe you, I tried using your post as an explanation for why undead are not inherently evil.
Pfisiar 05-29-07, 04:32 PM	If I understand things correctly, spells that raise corpses also force unwilling souls back into their dead bodies. This is a perversion of life, a mockery of the ultimate good, which is life. In a way, if creating life is an ultimate good, then creating the opposite of life, undeath, is an ultimate evil.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-30-07, 01:32 AM	Can we get some reference on this? As much as I believe you, I tried using your post as an explanation for why undead are not inherently evil. Raise dead and other similar spells that wrench the soul out of the planes and put it back into its mortal shell only work if the soul of the dead mortal in question is a petitioner, but has not moved beyond that status into anything more (such as some types of fiends or celestials, or if they've merged with a deity or a plane). (see 'On Hallowed Ground' page 32) However, that said, you can still raise a corpse to become an undead being regardless of the status of its former occupant soul, even if the soul in question has since become a pit fiend or even something more powerful. The soul might be an archon, completely dead and devoured by its plane, etc but that hunk of bone and meat on the prime material can still become a mindless zombie or skeleton. Ergo such necromancy spells that animate corpses as non-intelligent undead don't do anything to the souls that used to wear them. And regarding negative energy and the negative energy plane not being evil. The negative energy plane has been neutral in every edition of D&D that specified an alignment for the plane (see 1e MotP, 2e 'The Inner Planes', '3e MotP', and other sources). The energons that personify negative energy are 'always neutral', and the trilloch that is also a native creature arising naturally from the negative energy plane is usually CN. The negative energy plane and its constituent energy simply -is-, it's a raw force of nature without an objective alignment, though because of its natural potential for damage to positive energy based creatures some people misinterpret it as being evil, but it's no more evil than fire is evil in the mind of an ice paraelemental. The Gray Waste personifies Evil as an abstract concept, not the Negative Energy Plane.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-30-07, 01:37 AM	In a way, if creating life is an ultimate good, then creating the opposite of life, undeath, is an ultimate evil. Pale Night the Abyssal Lord and 'Mother of Demons' didn't perform any sort of Good when she created the first tanar'ri, nor did the Baernaloths do any sort of good when they created the yugoloths, obyriths and ancient baatorians. ;) Life isn't necessarily 'good', nor is the creation of life anything but subjective based on what you create and why you create it. It's incredibly subjective, though some gods might tell their followers otherwise, and despite their power they're not the pure manifestations of alignment in the D&D multiverse. ;)
ArcTan 05-30-07, 05:47 AM	Can we get some reference on this? As much as I believe you, I tried using your post as an explanation for why undead are not inherently evil. There is no canon source that clarifies one way or the other. (I am *not* counting AD&D Planescape supplements as canon, as many things about 3e alignment and Undeath specifically and strongly contradict things said in said supplements.) The WotC D&D canon says nothing at all about what happens to a Petitioner when an Undead being is created of the mortal he came from. If we take it literally, nothing says a Petitioner is at all affected by a corpse becoming a Lich (someone can *intentionally become a Lich* and still generate a Petitioner at the moment they "die" in the process), turning into a Vampire, or even a dead person appearing as a Ghost. And, indeed, there are fantasy settings where the soul of a person in an afterlife and the "shade" of a person as a ghost or an undead creature are two totally distinct things, and a sentient, intelligent, malevolent ghost can actually fight against the true soul of the being he came from, the ghost being the sloughed-off shell the person "left behind" upon transcending. (A lot of actual nonfiction New Wave writers believe that ghosts are only shells or portions of a complete human soul.) However, in a campaign where Vampires *do* contain the souls of the original mortal, I don't see why I wouldn't rule that a Skeleton or Zombie wouldn't either. If the original personality can be warped and twisted into something like a Ghoul or a Wraith or a Shadow, then it can be totally suppressed to be a mindless Undead.
ArcTan 05-30-07, 05:54 AM	Raise dead and other similar spells that wrench the soul out of the planes and put it back into its mortal shell only work if the soul of the dead mortal in question is a petitioner, but has not moved beyond that status into anything more (such as some types of fiends or celestials, or if they've merged with a deity or a plane). (see 'On Hallowed Ground' page 32) On Hallowed Ground is not a canon source for D&D 3e. However, that said, you can still raise a corpse to become an undead being regardless of the status of its former occupant soul, even if the soul in question has since become a pit fiend or even something more powerful. The soul might be an archon, completely dead and devoured by its plane, etc but that hunk of bone and meat on the prime material can still become a mindless zombie or skeleton. Ergo such necromancy spells that animate corpses as non-intelligent undead don't do anything to the souls that used to wear them. The D&D rules don't differentiate between using animate dead to make a Skeleton or the corpse naturally rising as a Wight thanks to having been killed by negative energy or using create greater undead to make it into a Mummy, though. If we use your interpretation, this is just as true of intelligent Undead as it is of mindless Undead. And regarding negative energy and the negative energy plane not being evil. The negative energy plane has been neutral in every edition of D&D that specified an alignment for the plane (see 1e MotP, 2e 'The Inner Planes', '3e MotP', and other sources). It should be noted that the 3.0 MotP came out *before* the 3.5 revision, which *did* make changes like specifying Skeletons and Zombies as Always Evil, and adding the [Evil] descriptor to spells like deathwatch, animate dead, etc. It's up in the air what the sentence "Negative energy is Evil" means, but there *is* a canon *link* between negative energy and Evil. "Negative energy and Evil have no link whatsoever" is just as false a statement as "Negative energy is Evil whenever it appears". Take it for what you will. The energons that personify negative energy are 'always neutral', and the trilloch that is also a native creature arising naturally from the negative energy plane is usually CN. The negative energy plane and its constituent energy simply -is-, it's a raw force of nature without an objective alignment, though because of its natural potential for damage to positive energy based creatures some people misinterpret it as being evil, but it's no more evil than fire is evil in the mind of an ice paraelemental. The Gray Waste personifies Evil as an abstract concept, not the Negative Energy Plane. Generally, spells that involve an infusion of negative energy into the local plane on a long-term basis have the [Evil] descriptor (curse water, unhallow, deathwatch, animate dead), spells that involve a major infusion of positive energy into the local plane (hallow, bolt of glory, etc.) have the [Good] descriptor, and Evil Clerics cast the basic negative energy spells (inflict spells) spontaneously while Good Clerics cast the basic positive energy spells (cure spells) spontaneously. It's not as simple as "mistaking" negative energy as Evil because it does damage more easily. One domain that's all about doing damage to things is the War domain, which does not contain any [Evil]-descriptor spells and can therefore be granted by Good-aligned deities without problems. This is not true of the Death domain, which is why the Repose domain exists. One can, of course, decide that things like the [Evil] descriptor on deathwatch don't make sense and houserule them out, as a lot of people seem to do, but that doesn't mean they're not there or someone can't choose to use them (indeed, follow the *default* of using them) and draw certain conclusions based on them.
ArcTan 05-30-07, 05:58 AM	This is an idea I've always been rather confused by. How exactly are undead evil? Whats the difference between animating a corpse, and animating a lamp? Its just the influx of energy into a lifeless shell that causes it to become alive, or have a semblance of living. You can animate a corpse the way you animate a lamp. Animate objects on a corpse works. It produces a Construct that's a lot less useful in most ways than a Skeleton, because it doesn't preserve the living creature's HD, weapon proficiencies, natural attacks, Str and Dex scores, etc. It just moves the skeleton around like an object and slams it into things -- all its physical scores are the same as an animated table or bedsheet. Animate dead is different -- the "essence" of the old living thing is clearly still in it. Something about that, in D&D, is Wrong, or Evil, or at least has the [Evil] descriptor.
ArcTan 05-30-07, 05:59 AM	Of course it's quite possible that a person might willingly accept such a state, in which case there's no forced 'twisting' about it. Many uses of the spell are grossly evil, but not all cases, which precludes it being a blanket case. The real answer is that it's Evil because it has the [Evil] descriptor, which you can flavor as you like.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-30-07, 11:00 AM	On Hallowed Ground is not a canon source for D&D 3e. Says you. It addresses the topic in more detail than any 3.5 source, and its notions on the topic haven't been contradicted by anything more recently published. Given how deeply it and fellow products have shaped the descriptions of the planes in 3.x, even if you don't adhere to its ideas strictly, it seems utterly and irrationally dogmatic to discount it for no other reason than it's not 3.5... It should be noted that the 3.0 MotP came out *before* the 3.5 revision, which *did* make changes like specifying Skeletons and Zombies as Always Evil, and adding the [Evil] descriptor to spells like deathwatch, animate dead, etc. It should be noted that the 3.5 DMG also gives no alignment trait to the negative energy plane. It's still neutral, it's still not evil, just like it has been in every edition.
Optimator 05-30-07, 04:50 PM	Well, for what it's woth, Hades isn't very evil. Just gloomy. James Woods is the best god of death ever portrayed.
Adrez Nesnsid 07-07-07, 11:08 PM	Death in and among itself is not 'Evil'. All things die. Where it becomes 'Evil' is how death occurs. *Most* (but by all means not all) 'Evil' death gods are active in bringing about death. Which means, they will kill things just to see them die. The Neutral gods of death view it as the natural end of life. They are not actively bringing about death, but nor will they try to stop it. DYING isn't evil, but DEATH itself is, if not evil, than at least the one thing that everyone can view as an enemy, no matter who they are or what their condition.
Adrez Nesnsid 07-07-07, 11:10 PM	DYING isn't evil, but DEATH itself is, if not evil, than at least the one thing that everyone can view as an enemy, no matter who they are or what their condition. And don't try to bring up anything about what if someone's in pain, and dying with dignity, and all that B.S. Those concepts were all fabricated by insurance companies who don't want to have to pay up on their clients' policies...
Adrez Nesnsid 07-07-07, 11:18 PM	Why in most if not all books are the gods of the dead evil? That's a valid point, but it mainly only applies to the deities presented in Deities and Demigods, Hades in particular, who most certainly WAS NOT evil in classical mythology (The idea that he was is, of course, a relatively recent fabrication of the Disney corporation, who needed an archenemy for Herculese, because they screwed with the legend in the movie and for some reason changed Hera from his archenemy to his mother). I mean Nerull is the reaper, but why is he evil? Death needs to exist. :uh-huh: WTF??? :looloo:
bonethug0108 07-07-07, 11:41 PM	Hera is his step-mother.
Von_Harbringer 07-08-07, 12:06 AM	In my campaign world I had 3 deities of death. The "greater" deity was the judge of the souls. The other two were guides. They were all lawful in alignment. The lawful good deity had repose instead of death for a domain. She would bring the souls judged to be good (not evil) to their proper plane. The lawful evil one is the punisher of the damned. He would bring them to the lower planes for their final justice. All the souls not claimed by other evil gods were his to barter with to devils and demons.
Adrez Nesnsid 07-08-07, 07:15 AM	I mean Nerull is the reaper, but why is he evil? Nerull is apparently also the god of murderers in addition to being the god of death in general (or, at least, that's the impression that I got) Death needs to exist. Do you mean like in the novel Reaper Man, by Terry Pratchett, where in the absence of Death, ambient life energy built up and caused objects to come to life and beat the living **** out of people????
pres_man 07-08-07, 08:03 AM	p. 126 of Complete Divine has some discussion of undead and souls. For the most part it appears as if the official stance is that they do in fact trap the soul.
Silver_Bulette 07-08-07, 06:36 PM	Zombies are not evil because they have souls in them- they don't. They are evil because they take advantage of someone else's death to create a mindless slave (that cannot be dispelled like an animated object), and slavery is pretty awful. Also, on the subject of The Book of Job, I found the character's reactions to Job can be summarized as thus: -Job: Why does God let bad things happen to me? -Blank of Blank: You must be a sinner, 'cause God only punishes sinners. -Job: But nobles way worse than me get off scot- free, and the poor suffer... -Blank of Blank: LALALA I can't hear you devil man! *ten smegging passages of that later* -Job: I'm sick of your preach'in! God Himself knows I am pure. Let him tell me why I suffer! -Blank of Blank: If you insist. Hey God, Job has a question. -God: What? -Job: Why do you let ba- -God: Shut up! I am infinitely powerful, so I need no excuse for anything! Bow before me or be disintegrated! -Job: YesGodsorryGod. -God: That's better. now make a pointless symbolic sacrifice and I'll see what I can do about replacing that wife of yours I murdered. BTW, I am Christian, I am just selective of my beliefs. Also in the trash bin of religious shame; Original Sin, the Rapture, and Noah's Flood.
Rocketboy13 07-08-07, 06:52 PM	This is an idea I've always been rather confused by. How exactly are undead evil? Whats the difference between animating a corpse, and animating a lamp? Its just the influx of energy into a lifeless shell that causes it to become alive, or have a semblance of living. I have defined it under the taboo concept, people assign value to the bodies of people and if they are utilized in a demeaning manner then it is considered evil. In DnD I think the problem is that undead are powered by destructive energies, something that is atrophic and deadly to the living, as such they are considered evil in two ways. Lastly it is unclear as to what happens to souls when undead are constructed, is an undead's soul consumed in a sort of dark, negative energy fire to power the move ment of the undead? If so, that would be a truly evil thing. Is the soul trapped with the undead shell in any fashion? If so, then the undead is evil in a third way.
calronmoonflower 07-08-07, 06:54 PM	DYING isn't evil, but DEATH itself is, if not evil, than at least the one thing that everyone can view as an enemy, no matter who they are or what their condition. Death itself isn't evil, but lawful neutral in most mythologies. Death is necessary to have life. Also note in most mythology dying isn't the end of life, but rather another part of it.
Rocketboy13 07-08-07, 06:54 PM	Generally, they are not gods of the dead, they are gods of death. Gods of the dead tend to souls after life and help keep the world in proper balance (and are what you find in most classical mythology). Gods of death tend to...kill stuff. This is probably the most logical answer to the question of why the death god is evil however.
Rocketboy13 07-08-07, 06:55 PM	An evil god of life would certainly be an interesting twist. I think Lovecraft has one.
ArcTan 07-08-07, 08:41 PM	Also, on the subject of The Book of Job, I found the character's reactions to Job can be summarized as thus: -Job: Why does God let bad things happen to me? -Blank of Blank: You must be a sinner, 'cause God only punishes sinners. -Job: But nobles way worse than me get off scot- free, and the poor suffer... -Blank of Blank: LALALA I can't hear you devil man! *ten smegging passages of that later* -Job: I'm sick of your preach'in! God Himself knows I am pure. Let him tell me why I suffer! -Blank of Blank: If you insist. Hey God, Job has a question. -God: What? -Job: Why do you let ba- -God: Shut up! I am infinitely powerful, so I need no excuse for anything! Bow before me or be disintegrated! -Job: YesGodsorryGod. -God: That's better. now make a pointless symbolic sacrifice and I'll see what I can do about replacing that wife of yours I murdered. BTW, I am Christian, I am just selective of my beliefs. Also in the trash bin of religious shame; Original Sin, the Rapture, and Noah's Flood. ...I won't talk about Christianity in the broad sense here, but I will point out that you're not being entirely fair to the Book of Job, here. For one thing, God is incredibly ticked off at Job's three comforters *because* they tried to explain Job's suffering, and *rewards* Job for *passing the test* -- which means Job's anguish and anger are not condemned by the Bible but acknowledged and respected. For another, God's argument boils down more to "The universe is an incredibly complex place that's far too big and far too detailed for you to understand. The number of factors that go into even keeping the seemingly ordinary, mundane world operating for one second of one day is so mind-bogglingly huge and the number of things affected by every event and that every event affects is so enormous that it's be *impossible* to detail the reasons everything happens. There *can't* be an answer to a question like 'Why do people suffer?' The question is too big, and you could never understand the answer." Which, you know, is not the answer most of us *want* but I think is the only possible answer we can ever get, from God (or from the lack of God, if God isn't there). I think learning to accept that answer is a big part of life, and I think people who fail to accept that answer go on to create a lot of misery for themselves and others.
Adrez Nesnsid 07-08-07, 08:41 PM	I think Lovecraft has one. Yeah, Shub-Niggurath (and Eihort and Glaaki to a lesser extent, but they were primarily the purview of other mythos authors) I have defined it under the taboo concept, people assign value to the bodies of people and if they are utilized in a demeaning manner then it is considered evil. What if somebody says in their will that they don't mind?
ArcTan 07-08-07, 08:43 PM	I have defined it under the taboo concept, people assign value to the bodies of people and if they are utilized in a demeaning manner then it is considered evil. In DnD I think the problem is that undead are powered by destructive energies, something that is atrophic and deadly to the living, as such they are considered evil in two ways. Lastly it is unclear as to what happens to souls when undead are constructed, is an undead's soul consumed in a sort of dark, negative energy fire to power the move ment of the undead? If so, that would be a truly evil thing. Is the soul trapped with the undead shell in any fashion? If so, then the undead is evil in a third way. Libris Mortis, the currently official source on all things Undead, says that no one really knows (i.e. it's up to the DM), but all three are explicitly listed as officially sanctioned possibilities. Keep in mind that in D&D there isn't a hard line between mindless Undead and intelligent Undead, so any argument that Skeletons and Zombies have nothing to do with who they were in life has to answer what makes them so different from Ghosts and Vampires and Liches, who clearly are some version of the person they once were. (Keeping in mind that some intelligent Undead, like Ghouls and Wights and Wraiths, are nonetheless incredibly different from the people they once were and barely recognizable as the same individual -- notably these monsters are monsters, not templates, so everyone turns into the "same" Ghoul when they rise.)
ArcTan 07-08-07, 08:44 PM	I think Lovecraft has one. Doesn't exactly count, since *all* gods in Lovecraft are evil, or, rather, horrifyingly indifferent.
Adrez Nesnsid 07-08-07, 09:04 PM	Zombies are not evil because they have souls in them- they don't. They are evil because they take advantage of someone else's death to create a mindless slave (that cannot be dispelled like an animated object), and slavery is pretty awful. Also, on the subject of The Book of Job, I found the character's reactions to Job can be summarized as thus: -Job: Why does God let bad things happen to me? -Blank of Blank: You must be a sinner, 'cause God only punishes sinners. -Job: But nobles way worse than me get off scot- free, and the poor suffer... -Blank of Blank: LALALA I can't hear you devil man! *ten smegging passages of that later* -Job: I'm sick of your preach'in! God Himself knows I am pure. Let him tell me why I suffer! -Blank of Blank: If you insist. Hey God, Job has a question. -God: What? -Job: Why do you let ba- -God: Shut up! I am infinitely powerful, so I need no excuse for anything! Bow before me or be disintegrated! -Job: YesGodsorryGod. -God: That's better. now make a pointless symbolic sacrifice and I'll see what I can do about replacing that wife of yours I murdered. BTW, I am Christian, I am just selective of my beliefs. Also in the trash bin of religious shame; Original Sin, the Rapture, and Noah's Flood. ...I won't talk about Christianity in the broad sense here, but I will point out that you're not being entirely fair to the Book of Job, here. For one thing, God is incredibly ticked off at Job's three comforters *because* they tried to explain Job's suffering, and *rewards* Job for *passing the test* -- which means Job's anguish and anger are not condemned by the Bible but acknowledged and respected. For another, God's argument boils down more to "The universe is an incredibly complex place that's far too big and far too detailed for you to understand. The number of factors that go into even keeping the seemingly ordinary, mundane world operating for one second of one day is so mind-bogglingly huge and the number of things affected by every event and that every event affects is so enormous that it's be *impossible* to detail the reasons everything happens. There *can't* be an answer to a question like 'Why do people suffer?' The question is too big, and you could never understand the answer." Which, you know, is not the answer most of us *want* but I think is the only possible answer we can ever get, from God (or from the lack of God, if God isn't there). I think learning to accept that answer is a big part of life, and I think people who fail to accept that answer go on to create a lot of misery for themselves and others. Actually, if you read the Book of Job closely, you'll see that Job's trials and tribulations were inflicted upon him so that God could win a bet.
Adrez Nesnsid 07-08-07, 09:10 PM	Lastly it is unclear as to what happens to souls when undead are constructed, is an undead's soul consumed in a sort of dark, negative energy fire to power the move ment of the undead? If so, that would be a truly evil thing. Is the soul trapped with the undead shell in any fashion? If so, then the undead is evil in a third way. :ahem: Why does everybody always ignore the incorporeal undead (AND ghosts as well). You're almost as bad as Magic of Incarnum, which had the audacity to say that the undead don't have souls; A ghost or a spectre pretty much has bugger all (i.e. zip, zero, nothing, nil, nada...) EXCEPT A SOUL!!!!!:rant: :rant: WHAT THE BLOODY HELL IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU PEOPLE??? AND I DON'T MEAN ROCKETBOY IN PARTICULAR, I MEAN EVERYONE!!!!!:banghead:
Sothar_Borealis 07-08-07, 09:18 PM	Also, on the subject of The Book of Job, I found the character's reactions to Job can be summarized as thus: -Job: Why does God let bad things happen to me? -Blank of Blank: You must be a sinner, 'cause God only punishes sinners. -Job: But nobles way worse than me get off scot- free, and the poor suffer... -Blank of Blank: LALALA I can't hear you devil man! *ten smegging passages of that later* -Job: I'm sick of your preach'in! God Himself knows I am pure. Let him tell me why I suffer! -Blank of Blank: If you insist. Hey God, Job has a question. -God: What? -Job: Why do you let ba- -God: Shut up! I am infinitely powerful, so I need no excuse for anything! Bow before me or be disintegrated! -Job: YesGodsorryGod. -God: That's better. now make a pointless symbolic sacrifice and I'll see what I can do about replacing that wife of yours I murdered. BTW, I am Christian, I am just selective of my beliefs. Also in the trash bin of religious shame; Original Sin, the Rapture, and Noah's Flood. LMAO!! I love it! :D :D :D
lord_zack 07-08-07, 09:26 PM	You're forgetting a very important fact. Job, and all his children are likely in heaven now. They don't have to worry about death any more. As for death being necessary, no it isn't. It's an abomination caused by sin. It's an evil unnatural thing.
Rocketboy13 07-08-07, 10:15 PM	:ahem: Why does everybody always ignore the incorporeal undead (AND ghosts as well). You're almost as bad as Magic of Incarnum, which had the audacity to say that the undead don't have souls; A ghost or a spectre pretty much has bugger all (i.e. zip, zero, nothing, nil, nada...) EXCEPT A SOUL!!!!!:rant: :rant: WHAT THE BLOODY HELL IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU PEOPLE??? AND I DON'T MEAN ROCKETBOY IN PARTICULAR, I MEAN EVERYONE!!!!!:banghead: I actually think that they arn't souls, but are in fact ectoplasm a metaphysical substance that suposedly exists as a copy of persons in this world transposed on the next, an ectoplasim shell turns into an Undead when powered with negative energy. They arn't actual people's souls, but they believe themselves to be the real individuals, they are inherently evil because they are immitations, imposters, non-living blashfamies agaisnt those they think they were in life, that and they suck souls.
Saurus33 07-09-07, 02:00 AM	I remember, someone suggested that spells such as animate dead, awaken undead ect, don't actually call souls back, they use the imprint a soul left on its body through the soul's control mechanism for the body(the brain). Although I do agree that intelligent undead have their souls trapped when they are created. Also, please don't project your religious beliefs on the rest of us. As has been stated earlier in this thread, without death life would consist entirely of pain. As well, if death is an abomination, why do predators or herbivores exist? They subsist solely on the corpses of other animals and plants!
ArcTan 07-09-07, 04:26 AM	Actually, if you read the Book of Job closely, you'll see that Job's trials and tribulations were inflicted upon him so that God could win a bet. So that God could *prove a point*. Not quite the same thing.
ArcTan 07-09-07, 04:27 AM	I actually think that they arn't souls, but are in fact ectoplasm a metaphysical substance that suposedly exists as a copy of persons in this world transposed on the next, an ectoplasim shell turns into an Undead when powered with negative energy. They arn't actual people's souls, but they believe themselves to be the real individuals, they are inherently evil because they are immitations, imposters, non-living blashfamies agaisnt those they think they were in life, that and they suck souls. Libris Mortis describes a possible explanation for necromancy wherein negative energy is used to form "templates" based on a soul that was once present but is no longer. As far as Ghosts go, Ghosts are, in a way, inherently *bad* -- a Ghost does not form unless something has gone terribly wrong in the order of things and cries out to be corrected -- but the Ghost itself is not inherently Evil. Ghosts are one of the few Undead in D&D 3.5 that are not Always Evil or Usually Evil -- they are Alignment: Any, and generally keep the same alignment they had in life.
Thanuir 07-09-07, 06:59 AM	Why in most if not all books are the gods of the dead evil?Because the cultural environment of the game believes so. Or, like penchant said.To get a different answer you have to realize that the D&D system is based upon an entirely Western Judeo Christian outlook without integrating any of the good points of Judeo Christianity.Lord_zack demonstrates the point:As for death being necessary, no it isn't. It's an abomination caused by sin. It's an evil unnatural thing.Death gods also tend to be evil because using human sacrifice as a plot hook is easy and the explanation for followers of death gods sacrificing humans is simple.
Lobsopdoy 07-09-07, 12:57 PM	I think Lovecraft has one. Shub-Niggurath, but it's more malignant then malevolent. Not all aspects of Death are evil anyway. Death in Discworld would easily qualify as Lawful Good from Mort onwards. He doesn't actually kill people, he just allows them to pass on to the afterlife.
Tzor 07-09-07, 01:34 PM	I think you have to seperate the notions of "death" ad the notion of a god of death. Most fantasy literature treats "death" more as an overworked and underpaid divine civil servant. (Leiber's Death might be considered more of a power than a deity on the level of Chance and Necessity.) Gods of death are called so because they have the "death portfolio." Since the portfolio is torn between killing and making undead it gives those deities an evil effect. Ironically the Grim Reaper probably hates gods of death as they cause so much unnecessary paperwork. "Oh you just killed Joe, well I've got a quota to make here. Joe wasn't on my list. Now I have to find someone on my list who won't die because you just killed Joe."
HK-47 II 07-09-07, 03:12 PM	Ironically the Grim Reaper probably hates gods of death as they cause so much unnecessary paperwork. "Oh you just killed Joe, well I've got a quota to make here. Joe wasn't on my list. Now I have to find someone on my list who won't die because you just killed Joe." I have a strong feeling that you've seen the show "Dead Like Me", haven't you?